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Clnton And Obama Talk Past Each Other

24 Jul 2007 05:14 pm

Matt Yglesias writes:

This is interesting. One way of looking at the little Clinton-Obama exchange over talking to "enemy" foreign leaders was that Clinton was simply trying to underscore her experience level by adding a little nuance to the picture. That seems not to be the case, as she and surrogate Madeleine Albright are using the issue to hit pretty hard at Obama.

And, of course, if you construe what Obama said to mean that he intends to jet off to Pyongyang without any advance work having been done, I suppose that really would be "irresponsible and frankly naive," but that hardly seems like a fair assessment. It's strange for the front-runner to go on the attack like that, and especially odd given the political climate for her to be going out of the way to emphasize the idea that she's substantially more hawkish than Obama.

That depends on the composition of the political climate. If Democratic primary voters choose their favorite on the basis of who was right in 2003, then Clinton will lose. If they choose like they generally use -- on a mix of attributes, attitudes and issues and electability, then the argument supporting the track of the primary race is three dimensional.

Obama and Clinton are running two very different campaigns. Clinton does not need to prove her mettle to the Democratic base, and the base has, so far, given her a pass on Iraq. Her assumption is that she's crossed the change threshold and can focus on her core competency, which is "experience and strength." It's politically brave to be making the electability argument now, as she is doing, or it is dumb if it alienates her base. So far, it hasn't alienated her base -- maybe because the base buys the Clinton worldview of what's presidential.

Obama's strategy is more risky: his idealism rings resonant with liberals, his anti-Iraq-war proclivity clearly helps him get second looks, but his contant critiques of both parties are probably not warmly recieved by the partisan Democrats who vote in primaries (except New Hampshire). Obama's other problem is that the anti-Iraq war vacuum in Iowa has been filled by John Edwards.

Hence, Obama's declaration today that what was really "naive" and "irresponsible" was voting for the war in the first place is, one, a critique of Clinton's judgment and Edwards's judgment, and two, an attempt to change the subject back to Iraq.

Clinton and Obama are talking past each other.

Comments (20)

You contradict yourself here. They aren't talking past each other. Obama is (finally) taking strides to highlight the suggestion that Clinton's talk of "experience and strength" is empty rhetoric (in his view).

Another key phrase here is that the base has "so far" given her a pass on Iraq. She's been allowed to coast since the winter -- that time might be over. And let's see what happens when she responds in kind, because it seems to bring out the worst in her and also the doubts in primary voters.

"Obama's strategy is more risky: his idealism rings resonant with liberals, his anti-Iraq-war proclivity clearly helps him get second looks, but his contant critiques of both parties are probably not warmly recieved by the partisan Democrats who vote in primaries (except New Hampshire). Obama's other problem is that the anti-Iraq war vacuum in Iowa has been filled by John Edwards."

You presuppose Obama's strategic goal is occupying the White House in 2009. I believe they are working on a more long-term strategic plan that doesn't actually involve being the nominee this cycle, (though they obviously won't refuse the honor if offered).

Almost all of the Obama campaign's strategic decisions make more sense when you take this into account.

Obama cant fix Illinois how is he gonna fix America and the world as president.

Obama cant fix Illinois how is he gonna fix America and the world as president.

Huh? Do you understand the role of an United States Senator? You do know that Obama was never Governor of Illinois or anything, don't you?

And anyway, what exactly is so wrong with Illinois?

Illinois can't get a budget worked out. The temporary budget expires July 31 then who knows if i will continue working because they dont know how they will pay me. Schools have no money the Chicago Transit Authority will raise fare and things get worse. Dick Durbin is trying to help why cant Obama.

she's crossed the change threshold

Can you define "change threshold"?

Clinton is essentially running against Rudy Dalton McRomney. Obama is running against Clinton. This is as it should be, given that she is the frontrunner for the Dem nom now. But she has a problem--which may account for why she is hitting hard at Obama on this point. She cannot seem to break 40%. She will need a larger plurality to win the nom on the first ballot at the convention. If she doesn't she has to contend with the fact that Obama is the 2nd choice of 62% of democrats. So she has to hit at Obama until she can be sure that she can get past the first ballot. She is in trouble until she can pick up the support the other candidates may lose in the meantime. To do that she has to show (love her or hate her) she is electable, and to do _that_ she has to start running against the Republicans now. So long as she has a solid lead over all 1st tier republican candidates, she goes into the convention from a position of strength. Obama only has to get past the first ballot, so he can concentrate on her now, concentrate $34 million on micro-targeted ads, grow the pool of likely democratic voters--hence the on-campus push--and GOTV efforts among those groups who are unlikely to vote for her anyway. You are right that in terms of message they are talking past each other--he to her, she to the republicans--but in terms of posture they are clearly due for a head-on collision. This is just a warm-up while people are barely paying attention--a test to see how it plays out and who gets the bigger advantage from the confrontation. Hillary will have to figure out how to pay the minimum cover in the H-T-H (Drudge jumped on it), Obama has to figure out how to keep this from being about his experience (which is precisely the point Clinton is trying to make). The advantage is to Obama--he only has to narrow the gap not close it--but if Clinton starts slipping she will have to start fighting a 2 front war without looking like she is (Shillary). Bill is the canary in the coal mine--the more we see of him this fall, the more we know that they are nervous about Obama.

Hypo: Edwards takes Iowa; Obama takes New Hampshire; Obama and Edwards steal enough votes (Obama takes black votes, Edwards white ones) in South Carolina to deny Hillary a decisive victory (or a victory at all). That is 3 consecutive losses: IA, NH, SC. You think Hillary can argue she is inevitable then?

I remember the 8 years of the co-clintons and I have heard the clinton name until I am sick and tired of it. Hillary has no magic answers to national problems. If she by chance was elected she would just add to our problems. The thought of her gigilo husband being a roving ambassador frightens me to death. Hillary is nothing special, she has a lot of rich people who for some unknown reason think she should be president. Well I do not think that. News Journalists and TV networks are just choked up with her for some reason. What there is about the co-clintons that amazes americans goes way beyond me. Americans forget her, there will be a more honorable lady in the future. Be patient. In answer to our prayers God asks us to be patient for answers.

Anyway do not vote for the co-clintons.

Now Obama. He must surely know that he can not end the Iraq war just by the snap of his fingers. There have been presidents who promised to end wars if elected but, they did not. He in turn will have to be patient. He will have tochoose a staff and trust them. Then they will learn just what being president is really all about. He may want to use President George W Bush as a consultant for a while. He will need to adjust.

I am a registered republican but if I voted democrat it would be for Obama or Bill Richardson.

First to the poster who blames Obama for the budget hold up in Illinois. You do know he is no longer in the state senate? it's not his job.
Durbin cannot do much either. get a clue.
Clinton wants to create a big deal to get her face in the news as if they don't do their daily cheerleading for her already.
the biggest problem is that the voters actually believe her of all people. And the are in the midst of having these gauzy romantic idea of 20 years ago.
They forget the sheer exhaustion that the clintons produce.
I never had misty memories of yesterday. And today all that the Clintons do is remind me of how sick and tired I am of them. I am hoping the voters will come to thier senses and remember this as well before primary time.
But, then there is the other problem of the democrats forever picking the most unappealing and boring and disasterous nominee just like they have for 30 years and then wonder why they never win the white house. duh.

"Clinton does not need to prove her mettle to the Democratic base"

This is one of the Clinton campaign's many fatal weaknesses that the those inside the bubble do not seem to realize. There is a lot of opposition to Senator Clinton inside the Democratic base; I have never seen so many committed Democrats who say that they refuse to vote for her under any circumstance. The Republican machine didn't just increase her negatives among Republicans, and the Democrats look at the millions that she raised (and the $41 million paid Bill in "speaking fees" by lobbies and corporations) with suspicion.

It is worthwile to step back and realize that Senator Clinton's entire campaign was based on being inevetiable. It is no surprise that she repeats the mantra "I am winning" almost every where that she goes, nor is it an accident that her biggest supporter bought Opinion Research -- CNNs polling company (in addition to owning Info USA.) Being ahead in the polls is all that she has to offer, and she is going to repeat this every chance that she gets when there is a journalist within earshot.

The plan was to be so obviously the frontrunner by this time that campaign donations would dry up for all of the competitors. Even the Obama campaign was (professes to be) shocked that they beat her by so much in fundraising this quarter. Clearly the plan is not working and Hillary is in a tight spot. She needs the entire Democratic base in order to win the election, since the crossover vote for her is going to be exactly nil.

My fear is that Hillary's high negatives are going to cost the Democrats in other races if she gets the nomination. With her polarizing influence we could easily lose the Senate. Democrats are wonderfully skilled at pulling defeat from victory.

I do not know if Hillary really believes that the press is going to continue to be as gentle with her as it has been (if she gets the nomination) or if she somehow thinks that the attacks that are coming will strenghen her. It certainly worked well for Kerry, didn't it?

In Kerry's case the haters did not have much to work with; with Hillary they have a whole encyclopedia. How many press currently mention that her Senate finance chair was indicted for fraud? How critical a look has been given (yet) to Bill's $150,000 to $400,000 a speech paychecks to some of the more reactionary companies in America (including $150,000 from outsourcing company Ness Technologies.) Does she really think that this isn't going to come up?

She said something kind of interesting in an interview with the Des Moines Register: "most of (the Republican) candidates basically talk about beating me because they know from their own analysis that is likely to be the outcome."

Well this member of the base isn't giving Clinton a pass. There are virtually no circumstances in which I can imagine voting for her, either in a primary or in the general election. In any sane polity, her extreme hawkishness would be regarded as dangerous lunacy. Of course in contemporary America it's par for the course.

Well okay, I would vote for her over Giuliani, the only candidate more likely than Clinton to start WW III.

Of course you talking to someone who thinks that all of the candidates are insanely hawkish, Obama included.

So Marc, which Democratic candidate are you trying to 'bury' these days, and which Republican frontrunner are you trying to protect?

It's time for all of us as human beings to grow up and start living our lives as people of this earth and not country against country. When I hear a candidate say that peace is one of their highest priorities I will vote for that candidate. When we as a people of this world want peace, we will have peace. When we want it more than we want to be right then again we will have peace. Look at the ridiculous reality shows on the tube, no one gets along, backstabbing, trying to win , trying to survive and get ahead, to win....that's us on a global scale. But the sad part is that it is not a game or reality show, it is our lives that these people are playing with. We are a world of individuals and when we learn to honor all people and their right to believe and live their lives as they choose and respect all people then we might have a chance at peace.

Interesting comments. Ms. Clinton made good process point, but Obama responded correctly in a world wise political and aggressive sense. His gut point is I am not afraid of anybody, anywhere at anytime and 'our values' will trump any dictator's. There is something personally visceral there. Like his hard comeback at Prime Minister John Howard's questionable Iraq shot. He knows the world is watching and that these tough guys are measuring basic and raw strength. Common sense knows there will be a tough DOS prep. But a smooth and hard guy like Barrack doesn't talk about it anymore than a Chicago sausage maker talks about what goes on in the factory. Hugo and Castro, Kim and Ahmadinejad got the hard point. 'This guy is really ready to rumble. He has the native potential to 'gin up' the West and a whole new Southern front against us if we cross him, while looking like a saint.' He is more than a wonk he is a smart warrior and a 'talk soft, big stick', 'overwhelming force' kind of guy.
No slight against Ms. Clinton who is wonderful poised and steeped in national knowledge. She will probably win the nomination because she is the front runner and so many people admire Bill Clinton and fondly recall the nineties. But Mr. Obama appears to be playing at a whole new level of 'the game' including the great one. Modern adversaries are bound to take note and be troubled.

Well I guess I shouldn't even partially disagree with Beth, who seems to have similar feelings as I do about the current horror, but I am a little more cynical about the world. I'm inclined to think that world peace is a pretty dream which isn't going to be realized because humans are what they are, fallen if you have that belief system, or just inherently selfish if you don't.

But ... even if we can't have world peace, perhaps the so called "last best hope of earth" can STOP BEING THE BAD GUYS.

Obama is not idealistic he is just a young man in a hurry and his praise of that lowlife bum Ronald Reagan is not going to him him win supporters among democrats.

This is a terrible mistake on the part of Obama. It highlights his nascent view of the role of the Presidency in a complex world, as well as his tendency to dismiss important details while indulging his preference for the broad and ambiguous.

The question, while complex, was clear: As President, would you be willing to meet, individually, with the leaders of Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Syria and Venezuela within a year of taking office and without preconditions.

Obama: "Sure!". Clinton: "Not so fast!".

This would be a second time where Obama didn't pay attention to the details of a question.

In the first debate, when asked about how, as President, he would respond to a double-attack by Al Quaeda, Obama rambled on about first responders and determining who was behind the attack.

It's not Clinton's fault that Obama failed to grasp the pertinent details of thoughtful questions. And, she has every right to point out his lack of understanding and attention to detail in his answers.

You have to get up pretty early to beat Clintons. Obama, it seems, is still sleeping in.

This is characteristically disingenuous of Clinton. She doesn't actually believe that Obama would meet with dictators without spade-work, and that was nowhwere in his answer, and she also believes in talking to the "bad guys", so their positions are really indistinguishable. But he answered first, in general, philosophical terms, and she thought, "how can I make him look stupid?" and said that bit about not being used as a propaganda tool. Which Edwards immediately parrotted. If she had any sense she'd just sit tight and be applauded for her little A+ answer, but now she's trying to make a mountain out of a molehill with ridiculous hyperbole and it makes her look bad. Like the David Geffen episode.

I am not a Voter as y name suggests but have observations as a Global citizen. Strange as it seemed to me how CNN tore away Obama's picture out of the Clinton-Obama frame as if doing Hillary a favor out of the Molehill she created and set fire to a head on political battle... Other than being the first lady, I wonder what legislative experience she has brought to the US. She certainly is great politically and has been very smart since deciding not to divorce Bill Gates - for she might run for presidency some day.

Obama seems to have Vision having demonstrated well in advance by not voting for Iraq in 2003, when people across the world (except US) knew that invading Iraq without the consent of United Nation was mere arrogance and personal choice.

One clear differentiator on who looks more genuine and honest to the public is in the fact that the money raised by Obama comes out of so many small contributors while funds raised by Clinton is a significant portion in donation to Bill Clinton, just to continue the legacy of his lobbyists and fans.

Hillary seems to portray a kind of confused, extremely self-concious, arrogant outlook by calling out comments like "silly", "naive" etc. What perplexes me is that known media people seem to think the same way..while US as a nation has always been about change, about accepting newness and rejecting any baggage of history. So why call such things like "the prestige blah...blah...that a US president holds"(Hillary mentioned this)...well if you are great, you do not have to tell the world you are great or that your position carries prestige. The only way US can have a rebound enthusiasm and admiration is if it embraces change and diversity as it has always been. People, please comment about CNN on whether they are influencing decisions by doing such things... if they are...they might as well be considered the opposite of Fox news. I have more respect for BBC as an independent media, now after this coverage by CNN