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Obama, Romney, And Sex, Sex, Sex

19 Jul 2007 03:17 pm

A thought experiment: if Zorban from the planet Juteriope landed in Loudoun County today and was provided with biographical sketches of the three leading candidates from each party, which party would he think was more conservative about sex?

During a campaign stop in Colorado last night, Ex-MA Gov. Mitt Romney said he was "shocked' to hear that Sen. Barack Obama told a liberal pressure group that sex education ought to be taught in kindergarten.

"I heard a quote today from Sen. Barack Obama which puzzled me. He said that we should have sex education in kindergarten. I'm not kidding you. And I scratched my head when I heard that," said Romney, his face locking in a grimace. "How much sex education ought to be age appropriate for a five year old? In my view, zero."

Let the sex wars continue. (To skip ahead to the ending, click here.)

At the broadest level of public opinion, there are unmistakable signs that conservatives are losing; there is a growing, though circumscribed tolerance for homosexuality; pornography is ubiquitous and impervious to attacks; abortion rights (again, circumscribed) are fairly well ingrained in the culture; the percentage of self-identified atheists in the public square is Babel-towering; sex is inevitable and amoral.

But primary politics remains largely an exercise in irritating the triggering points within the musculature of the political parties. It’s in the self-interest of conservatives to exploit the sex wars; it’s in the interest of liberals to flee the battles.

Since the 70s, when confronted with the public policy dimensions of sex, Democrats have tended towards a defensive crouch. Those voters most concerned with sex -- evangelical protestants and conservative Catholics -- have found refuge in a Republican Party that pays lip service to their concerns and occasionally acts on them. The modern Republican Party mastered the political language of sex while Democrats were still prattling on about economic redistribution.

Romney has always been a sexual conservative, even as his political views shift from the center to the right. One of his closest friends told me last year that Romney believes that homosexuality is probably more chosen than innate; that he was never one to banter about sex; that he views it more as a sacred communion of souls than an instrumental expression of pleasure. Romney reflects the general disposition of about half the Republican base. That they tend to be the voting half is important.

Sexual conservatives blame the bad trends on the spread of procedural liberalism, which has empowered "judicial activists." In their view, elite Democrats are sexual modernists. The party's secular (or non-evangelical) ideological base has an instrumental, liberationist view of sex; in the realm of public policy, it is legal formalism -- private relations governed by consent, with no single arrangement privileged. When it comes to , moral regulation, government quite literally abstains from judgment.

I'm not so sure if this portrayal is accurate.

For one thing, peers influence attitudes on sex as much as culture or government does, maybe more. (There is probably bidirectional causality between culture and peer attitudes, of course). And compared to European countries, Americans are more conservative about three foundational ideas: about the desirability of marriage, about the stigma attached to fornication, and even about gender roles. This traditionalism has obvious roots in evangelical Christianity and conservative religious movements (like the LDS church).

Americans are growing less conservative, it seems to me, about the telos of sex. As one conservative legal commentator writes to me with respect to HIV/AIDS prevention, "Sex is inevitable as far as liberals are concerned and therefore it is a medical issue. Sex is a "choice" for conservatives and therefore AIDS is an ethical, behavioral issue which should aim at stopping promiscuity."

A Republican correspondents writes to me:

I have long argued -- and a number of evangelical leaders have privately agreed with me -- that the problem with gay marriage, for them, is that it validates a view of marriage that is centered on sexual monogamy rather than procreation. It is no longer weird to have a long-married straight couple without children. And that is really what is so shocking to the sexual conservatives. Allowing gay marriage is just a public execution of procreative marriage.

For some reason, sexual liberals have less of a voice in the Democratic Party than sexual conservatives have in the Republican Party.

None of the three Democratic candidates who occupy the top tier -- Obama, Hillary Clinton or John Edwards -- are sexual modernists. They brook distinctions between gay and straight couples; Hillary Clinton in particular has railed against a pornofied culture; Obama “honors and respects” abstinent teens; Howard Dean, having studied polling data, has concluded that the Democratic Party must adopt a language of "protection" -- giving the parents tools to "protect" them from the cesspool of modern culture.

Point of conjecture: Romney and Obama may be closer on sex than appearances suggest. The keyed-up ABC News headline aside, it turns out that Obama wants to make sure young kids know that they're supposed to tell trusted adults if someone tries to touch them inappropriately, Obama believes in a parental opt-out mechanism, would give school boards (responsive to the values of the local community) say in determining the cirrcula, and generally agrees with the notion that it's OK to tell a five year old that, yes, the stork brings the baby.

The Democrats make three concessions to sexual modernism. One is in the language they use to talk about sex. It’s more frank, more clinical and technical, than Republicans. Another is in the promotion of “comprehensive” sex education. Democrats are also more likely to sanction government research into the outer fringes of sexuality.

Comments (30)

Don't leave us hanging: what does Zorban think about all this? His or her thoughts have to be more coherent than your little essay.

While you are talking to Romney's close friends, perhaps you can ask them why Romney in 2002 held precisely the same position on sex education Obama does now? Or you can ask why Romney feels compelled to lie about what Obama's position actually entails? I noticed that none of your many Republican correspondents bother to point that out, and you apparently don't have any Democratic correspondents to offer their views.

But hey, maybe Zorban will enlighten us.

OMG- Pretty Mitty both lying and flip-flopping in order to win votes, all in one sentance. No wonder he's the Republican front runner.

Thanks for mentioning Romney's distortion in the seventeenth paragraph of your post. I guess it's better than nothing.

Marc,

You're still a hack. Did it ever occur to you to correct Romney's distortions of Obama's statement....oh say around the 4th paragraph instead of the second to the last one? And you're what is considered astute in the national dialogue? Quit stinking the place up if you're incapable of being unbiased.

Sincerely,

Patrick in Chicago

Good contrast between these two candidates, who may well face one another in the general election.

When I saw the headline (somewhere else) that Obama advocated sex ed for kindergarten, I was shocked. Then I saw the context and just smiled. Then I saw Romney's statement here and smiled more.

Everytime someone takes one of Obama's blatantly reasonable statements and tries to villify it, they damage their own credibility. If Romney or whoever the Republicans nominate does find something noteworthy to attack this guy on, it will probably be after most independents have stopped listening to the criticism. Maybe even a few Republicans will have stopped listening by then, too.

...I don't get the vile towards Ambinder. I'm as ardent an Obama supporter as you'll find, and I didn't find this blog to be off-putting or unfair in the least.

If it were a news article and he buried the Romney distortion like that, yeah, I'd be pissed. But blog posts, unlike news articles, are, I think, generally read to the end. As such, I don't think you can bury information like that.

Romney rules.

Michael,

Thanks for your concern for the vile directed towards poor Marc. However, if you don't get it then your just don't want to. Ambinder did bury the facts regarding Slick Mits distortion! Is that ok just because it's a blog? Did objective reporting go out the window? This is where these distortions of candidates get their start. And did you miss the title up top? It's titled "A Reported Blog on Politics." It is not titled "One Man's Biased Opinions on Politics & Politicians" which would be far more accurate. Ambinder pretends that he is a reporter offering facts & objective reporting and that's not the case. Just look at his past 10 blog posts and his lack of unbiased, unfiltered factual reporting as opposed to his own right-leaning biases becomes glaringly obvious.

Patrick in Chicago

Who cares what Marc Ambinder writes? He pretty much admits that he hates John Edwards and that stories about haircuts are good journalism. There are much better writers and political analysts out there on the Interents. Marc Ambinder is a hack who can't compete in either depth, writing, or insight.

Hey Mikeg,

Defend your argument that Romney held the same positition as Obama! Prior to this year Obama had the following to say.

"Nobody's suggesting that kindergartners are going to be getting information about sex in the way that we think about it," Obama said at the time. "If they ask a teacher 'where do babies come from,' that providing information that the fact is that it's not a stork is probably not an unhealthy thing" 2004 Daily Herald

Yes, Romney previosly checked a box indicating he supported age appropriate sex education but he didn't include 5 year old kids as he emphasized yesterday. Obama specifically mentioned 5 year old kids. There is a difference.

I support sex education in schools as well, but not in Kindergarten. I don't need the teachers answering questions where babies come from. Let the parents deal with that issue at that age.

People like Romney, Vitter, Gingrich, Foley who act 'holier than thou' are the same ones who talk about their own wives and children during day time and then as sun goes down these people go and screw prostitues, other women, men and children. How pathetic!

Got any proof of that, Andy? Or are baseless slanders of adultery and pedophilia no big deal in your world?

Mr. Ambinder:

This is pretty vapid, but coming on the heels of your Edwards piece, it's really hard to swallow.

Edwards, who comes from a modest background, has always worked on behalf of the ordinary person, has for years focused on the problems of poverty in America -- Edwards you label a hypocrite.

Romney, who chose one set of values (pro-abortion, pro-gay-rights) to run in Massachusetts and a completely different set now that he seeks the right-wing so-called Christian vote (see http://www.massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/record/) -- Romney you treat as entirely consistent ("Romney has always been a sexual conservative, even as his political views shift from the center to the right.")

Do you detect a double standard here? And why, exactly, should anyone respect your views?

I want to scream it as a person who has seen the effects of pedophilia, that Senator Obama is right. It is vital to teach to kids of young age that there are some place of their bodies that no one has the right to touch.
To Jack,
So we have to leave it to parents. What are we supposed to do when the pedophile is the parent himself or a widely respected authority in the family like a priest who happened to be closed to the family?
I praise the courage of Senator Obama. Can we imagine what difference, it could have made in catholic schools if appropriate sex ed was taught to kids. Just ask it to Cardinal Mahoney... I'm a catholic, i live in Los Angeles and i know what I'm talking about.

Hey Andy are going to post that same dribble on every blog site?

"Yes, Romney previosly checked a box indicating he supported age appropriate sex education but he didn't include 5 year old kids as he emphasized yesterday. Obama specifically mentioned 5 year old kids. There is a difference.

I support sex education in schools as well, but not in Kindergarten"

Well, why not, Jack? I've had kids. By the time they were 5, they knew about everybody's private parts, which is about what they should know. That's what "age appropriate" means. And at every appropriate opportunity, we talked about sex with our kids. I mean, when our youngest was about ten, he asked, and I explained, what Bill and Monica had been up to. He thought it was weird, but he packed the thought away for later. And the kids have been wonderfully responsible people.

Because of people like you, I'm afraid, the schools don't get to sex until about 9th to 11th grades -- too late to root out the idiotic ideas kids have gotten if their parents haven't talked to them about sex. It will be far better for kids whose parents are afraid of sex if the school begins early with age-appropriate stuff.

But, given that schools mostly listen to folks like you, I say to everybody -- Talk to your kids about sex whenever it comes up, which should be a lot if your kids actually talk to you, and which should happen beginning when they're quite young. Kids are curious about their bodies, the differences between the sexes, marriage, parenting and, yes, where babies come from. Talk to your kids about sex. When you've told them the basics, they won't be afraid to ask about more important stuff. And it's best if the information comes from you. This really works. Don't be afraid of sex, and don't avoid it when it's the natural answer to a question. To many people make fun of a kid for asking, or act embarrassed. Talk to your kids about sex.

Patrick:

I don't get your objection...Ambinder did report the distortions. He just used the specific Romney/Obama flap to frame a larger story about sex in the political dialogue and in society in general. Given that narrative structure, saving the clarification of Obama's views for the end make sense, as they bring home is larger point.

And again, I do think this would be inappropriate for a newspaper. But this isn't a newspaper, its a blog, and expectations of the readers and the reader habits are different from those with newspapers. As such, I thought the piece was fine.

I also think Ambinder's take on Edwards has been pretty unfairly mischaracterized by some. He's been one of the more fair reporters of the election I've encountered so far, and that's as a fan of Obama and, to a lesser extent, Edwards.

Come on David...listen to what I am saying and don't inject hyperbole.

I too have kids and have talked to them starting as young as 5. The key here and as you have stated both you and I talked to our kids at that age, not teachers.

We both know that kids are getting exposed at younger and younger ages, so don't throw the "because of you ...9th and 11th grade" crap.

We, as reasonable adults can come up with a grade and age that is appropriate in which schools begin exposing (I know bad choice of words :-)) the kids to sex education. There might come a time in our society when 5 year olds are getting so much information that we will have to step in. However, I don't think that time is now and hopefully we can wait a little before that happens. (let's try to keep kids innocent as long as possible).

When that day comes I will join with you supporting age appropriate sex education to protect our children from mis-information or damaging information.

Do we have a truce?

Dear Marc:

Over one hundred comments explaining why you are everything that's wrong, broken, corrupt, lazy, stupid, and destructive to the country about the DC political press (and why political journalists now get about as much respect in polls as serial killers)...

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/07/romney_wore_makeup_film_at_ele.php

...and a post by one of the most popular (and lucid) bloggers in the country titled 'This Is Why We Revile Them' (and yes, that means you)...

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/this-is-why-we-revile-them-by-digby.html

..and still not a word from you. No wonder you have such a man-crush on Bush and Cheney, you are a man of the same cloth. Besides being a water-carrier for the corrupt Republican establishment of course, but that's a given.

I'm with Brad DeLong from the Edwards-haircut thread. We're going to repeatedly point out that you've forfeited the privilege of being listened to re: politics ... because the outraged folks reading this blog want the American people not snickering high-school-minded Beltway journalists to decide the next election. When you write "fairly or unfairly" you can't be serious ... we want journalists to cover the candidates fairly.

I look forward to the time in a few years when Digby and her ilk are celebrated for their commentary and this drivel has died an ignoble death.

Ambinder,

Have you come up with a reason why it's acceptable for the Washington Press Corps to decode to "bury" a candidate they do not personally like ? Have you read the comments to that insipid post yet? Are you ready to name names of the 'reporters" who have this idea? Do you have info on a cabal of reporters who have made the conscious decision to skew their stories to bury a candidate? if so, why haven't you reported their names?

Marc:

For the good of the country and the sake of whatever shreds of decent public discourse you haven't yet equivocated into oblivion, stop writing immediately.

"It’s in the self-interest of conservatives to exploit the sex wars."

!!!

Somehow, you and your cohort in the national media seem oblivious to the idea that, as journalists, you're supposed to EXPOSE AND REPORT that exploitation, NOT ENABLE IT. Conversely, you seem equally unaware of your responsibility to REPORT the actual liberal/progressive response to that exploitation truthfully, NOT SPIN IT, through the distorted lens of the opposition, as cowardly retreat.

And then there's your non-chalant admission of rampant personal bias in our national press corps towards John Edwards. Thanks to the exceptional work of Bob Sommerby at the Daily Howler, anyone paying marginal attention to politics knows how abysmally juvenile our national press corps has become. But how far removed from common sense and rational thought do you have to be to predicate your glaring admission of ethical and professional incompetence with the phrase "fairly or unfairly"?

Would that you were merely irrelevant. By creating false equivalence between right-wing-nuttery and reality-based argument, you are ignoring substance and preferring, instead, to concentrate on the "effectiveness" of their respective "messages." In your own small way, you are helping the GOP (which you casually admit has a vested interest in exploiting, not honestly addressing, issues) as they shove our public discourse through the looking glass, where politics is all about self-styled personalities and public relations, regardless of the very real consequences for us and our democracy.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS EMPIRICALLY KNOWABLE AND VERIFIABLE, CUT IT OUT!

Got any proof of that, Andy? Or are baseless slanders of adultery and pedophilia no big deal in your world?
Posted by Adam Greenwood | July 19, 2007 7:37 PM

Maybe Andy doesn't have any proof Adam, but I heard that Larry Flint's got some...
The record shows that the GOP is the home of the secret pervert. Just ask Ray Cohn's ghost. It's a party of mental illness and abnormal psychology. Remember J Edgar Hoover? Look at Dick Cheney today, you call that normal?

I don't know. Its not that long a blog entry. I don't see how anything can be buried in writing that's only a few hundred words. I'm an Obama supporter and kind of like Ambinder's take on this.

Didn't care for the headline at first. But after reading the direction Ambinder takes with the story - how the two parties, at least as represented by these two candidates, aren't that far apart on the issue, all bluster aside - I see how the headline was intended.

PLM, the two parties ARE that far apart. But Ambinder makes it seem like the Republicans are "moral" and the Dems are "medical". Well, you know, some of us think it's actually MORAL to let people who love each other marry each other. Some of us think it's IMMORAL to try to interfere with someone else's sex life and love life. And some of us, frankly, think that a country founded on the principles of freedom from religious opporession should be turning to the Bible -- only the Old Testament, of course, and just selections therein-- for how to hamhock our fellow citizens.

There's nothing moral about the thrice-married Giuliani telling the rest of us who we can marry. Democrats want to extend to everyone the freedom that Republican politicians keep to themselves-- to choose who and how to love.

Oh, yeah, and Democrats think love doesn't include exploitation, and that keeping kids from being exploited has a higher priority than giving Mitt Romney one more chance to flip-flop.

Jack,

Thanks for your response. All I was trying to say was that I think your categorical position that there is no sex education that is appropriate for a five-year old is really wrong. There are appropriate things to say, as I think you do appreciate. And what Obama is proposing is hardly depriving kids of innocence that isn't already gone when we tell them not to talk to strangers. Letting them understand the concept of their personal privacy, as against inappropriate touchings, is a useful addition, and that's all Obama is talking about. The schools ought to do it because homes where abuse takes place are probably not delivering this message.

By the way, I didn't think it was "crap" that kinds don't get sex ed before high school. Mine didn't (though that was a decade ago and may have been just what their schools did).

Mr. Ambinder,
This is good analysis, but it appears that you misinterpreted Obama's comments. You say that he thinks it is OK to tell a five-year-old that the stork brought the baby, when what he actually said was, "providing information that the fact is that it's not a stork is probably not an unhealthy thing". So it seems like he wants to dispel any child-like notions of how babies arrive rather than perpetuate them at the kindergarten level. Just wanted to bring that to your attention.
By the way, my father thought I was a precocious enough five-year-old that he could explain sex to me at that age (And we're Mormon). It didn't take.

Lister - you are highlighting or at least making oblique references to a couple differences, which may or may not actually represent the middle-party positions from both Democrats and Republicans.

I don't think you'd find either party opposed to the notion of a man and a woman marrying, having and raising kids, and staying married for life. Nor do we see either party opposed to providing a legal divorce option, as well as a legal option to marry again.

Much of what you seem to be referencing is gay marriage. That does seem to be a difference, though I would guess that the "average" Republican is perhaps more ambivalent toward this than it seems, and that the "average" Democrat is perhaps less interested in promoting than it seems.

Let's not forget that gay marriage does represent a pretty small minority of the country. Not to say minority status means those people don't count. But we shouldn't also lose sight on the simple fact that both parties are for heterosexual marriage for the majority.

And coming back to the issue at hand, I suppose most people from both parties are closer on "sex education" than not. Myself, I kind have that icky reaction to it and was shocked to find out my son would be subjected to it, from kindergarten on, in our Catholic parish school. Then I saw what they meant by sex education, and while I didn't see it as a burning need for my son at those ages, I was okay with it.

For those of you hyperventilating about Mitt supposedly having the same position as Obama on sex-ed for Kindergartners...pay attention.

Mitt did say that he is in favor of age appropriate sex ed. He did not address Kindergarten at that time. Since this flap, he has specified that sex ed is in fact not age appropriate for Kindergartners.

Seems like common sense.

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