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Memo: Power On "CW V. CWN"

03 Aug 2007 03:51 pm

Yesterday, I wrote that the Obama campaign might use Wednesday's news cycle debate about nuclear weapons to "draw distinctions between the Old Ways Of Washington and the New Way Of Obama."

Lo and behold: the campaign released a memo today that compares Obama's elaborations on foreign policy with his judgment about the Iraq war, and describes his approach as a "Change We Need" from "Conventional Washington."

"Conventional Washington" in the body of Iowan David Yepsen fundamentally disagrees. The co-dean of the Iowa political press corps believes that Obama blundered.


Obama was roundly denounced by the other Democratic candidates and, once again, has said something that makes him look not ready for the White House. He’s been battling that image problem since the beginning of the race and this comment does nothing to instill confidence. While pacifist Democrats might like it, it’s doubtful it would play to a larger general election electorate that expects an American president to use all tools in the toolbox to defend the country.

Here is the full Powers memo.

August 3, 2007

To: Interested Parties

From: Samantha Power -- Founding Executive Director, Harvard University Carr Center for Human Rights Policy

Re: Conventional Washington versus the Change We Need


It was Washington’s conventional wisdom that led us into the worst strategic blunder in the history of US foreign policy. The rush to invade Iraq was a position advocated by not only the Bush Administration, but also by editorial pages, the foreign policy establishment of both parties, and majorities in both houses of Congress. Those who opposed the war were often labeled weak, inexperienced, and even naïve.

Barack Obama defied conventional wisdom and opposed invading Iraq. He did so at a time when some told him that doing so would doom his political future. He took that risk because he thought it essential that the United States “finish the fight with bin Laden and al Qaeda.” He warned that a “dumb war, a rash war” in Iraq would result in an “occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences.”

Barack Obama was right; the conventional wisdom was wrong. And today, we see the consequences. Iraq is in chaos. According to the National Intelligence Estimate, the threat to our homeland from terrorist groups is “persistent and evolving.” Al-Qaeda has a safe-haven in Pakistan. Iran has only grown stronger and bolder. The American people are less safe because of a rash war.

Over the last few weeks, Barack Obama has once again taken positions that challenge Washington’s conventional wisdom on foreign policy. And once again, pundits and politicians have leveled charges that are now bankrupt of credibility and devoid of the new ideas that the American people desperately want.

On each point in the last few weeks, Barack Obama has called for a break from a broken way of doing things. On each point, he has brought fresh strategic thinking and common sense that break with the very conventional wisdom that has led us into Iraq.

Diplomacy: For years, conventional wisdom in Washington has said that the United States cannot talk to its adversaries because it would reward them. Here is the result:

* The United States has not talked directly to Iran at a high level, and they have continued to build their nuclear weapons program, wreak havoc in Iraq, and support terror.
* The United States has not talked directly to Syria at a high level, and they have continued to meddle in Lebanon and support terror.
* The United States did not talk to North Korea for years, and they were able to produce enough material for 6 to 8 more nuclear bombs.

By any measure, not talking has not worked. Conventional wisdom would have us continue this policy; Barack Obama would turn the page. He knows that not talking has made us look weak and stubborn in the world; that skillful diplomacy can drive wedges between your adversaries; that the only way to know your enemy is to take his measure; and that tough talk is of little use if you’re not willing to do it directly to your adversary. Barack Obama is not afraid of losing a PR battle to a dictator – he’s ready to tell them what they don’t want to hear because that’s how tough, smart diplomacy works, and that’s how American leaders have scored some of the greatest strategic successes in US history.

Barack Obama’s judgment is right; the conventional wisdom is wrong. We need a new era of tough, principled and engaged American diplomacy to deal with 21st century challenges.

Terrorist Sanctuaries: For years, we have given President Musharraf hundreds of millions of dollars in military aid, while deferring to his cautious judgment on how to take out high-level al Qaeda targets – including, most likely, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri. Here is the result:

* Bin Laden and Zawahiri – two men with direct responsibility for 9/11– remain at large.
* Al Qaeda has trained and deployed hundreds of fighters worldwide from its sanctuary in northwest Pakistan.
* Afghanistan is far less secure because the Taliban can strike across the border, and then return to safety in Pakistan.

By any measure, this strategy has not worked. Conventional wisdom would have us defer to Musharraf in perpetuity. Barack Obama wants to turn the page. If Musharraf is willing to go after the terrorists and stop the Taliban from using Pakistan as a base of operations, Obama would give him all of the support he needs. But Obama made clear that as President, if he had actionable intelligence about the whereabouts of al Qaeda leaders in Pakistan – and the Pakistanis continued to refuse to act against terrorists known to be behind attacks on American civilians – then he will use highly targeted force to do so.

Barack Obama’s judgment is right; the conventional wisdom is wrong. We need a new era that moves beyond the conventional wisdom that has brought us over-reliance on an unreliable dictator in Pakistan and an occupation of Iraq.

Nuclear Attacks on Terrorist Targets: For years, Washington’s conventional wisdom has held that candidates for President are judged not by their wisdom, but rather by their adherence to hackneyed rhetoric that make little sense beyond the Beltway. When asked whether he would use nuclear weapons to take out terrorist targets in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Barack Obama gave the sensible answer that nuclear force was not necessary, and would kill too many civilians. Conventional wisdom held this up as a sign of inexperience. But if experience leads you to make gratuitous threats about nuclear use – inflaming fears at home and abroad, and signaling nuclear powers and nuclear aspirants that using nuclear weapons is acceptable behavior, it is experience that should not be relied upon.

Barack Obama’s judgment is right. Conventional wisdom is wrong. It is wrong to propose that we would drop nuclear bombs on terrorist training camps in Pakistan, potentially killing tens of thousands of people and sending America’s prestige in the world to a level that not even George Bush could take it. We should judge presidential candidates on their judgment and their plans, not on their ability to recite platitudes.

Vision: American foreign policy is broken. It has been broken by people who supported the Iraq War, opposed talking to our adversaries, failed to finish the job with al Qaeda, and alienated the world with our belligerence. Yet conventional wisdom holds that people whose experience includes taking these positions are held up as examples of what America needs in times of trouble.

Barack Obama says we have to turn the page. We cannot afford any more of this kind of bankrupt conventional wisdom. He has laid out a foreign policy that is bold, clear, principled, and tailored for the 21st century. End a war we should never have fought, concentrate our resources against terrorists who threaten America. End the counter-productive policy of lumping together our adversaries and avoiding talking to our foes. End the era of politics that is all sound-bites and no substance, and offer the American people the change that they need.

Barack Obama’s judgment is right. It is conventional wisdom that has to change.

Comments (61)

Once again, Obama's press agents need to rescue him from having stepped into a big pile of his own making.

What's so terribly difficult about putting out a press release or making a pre-written speech?

The fact remains that in the debates and interviews, when he is without a prepared text, he doesn't seem to know what he thinks and is unable to give a cogent answer.

Ahh, the conventional wisdom. These guys brought us the Iraq war! Haven't we had enough of politician slick-speak? As for Yepsen, he's another one of those who has gotten it more wrong than right so many times.

Nope, I'm not drinking the CW Kool-aid anymore. Mr. Obama's approach to politics is the most refreshing I've ever seen in my 40 years of following politics.

Tendentious pap.
There is not one CW, and Obama is not the sole alternative to a continuation of Bush's foreign policy.
To single out one point, there was no CW before Bush that the US should not talk to North Korea. Hell, Donald Rumsfeld was trying to sell them nuclear reactors before he became Sec Def.
Also, can't anyone on Obama's team keep from making things worse for him?
Powers' implication that other candidates endorse possible nuclear attacks on terrorst training camps is a huge stretch, at best, and makes her sound hysterical to me.
I predict Obama's nosedive will steepen quickly.
Did you read about the burning of US flags in Pakistan to protest Obama's threats?

He can't be the candidate of goodness and light at the same time he is promising more GWOT (even if he doesn't use that phrase).

Personally, I can't wait for Obama to drop out of the race.

I'm still trying to figure out how Obama saying that we should attack Pakistan if they don't get their house in order would be what "pacifist Democrats" want to hear. 'Cause, um, that's kind of a war, isn't it, David?

Sorry, JoeCHI,
He made a couple of pretty obvious statements (obvious to anyone outside the beltway) and got ambushed because of them.

I dont think either comment should have required such detail to back it up.

Powers is absolutely right that somehow during the post-9/11 malaise of fear, talk about nuclear weapons being "on the table," and threats to use them in cases where they'd be counterproductive and sickly disproportionate to our goals, has become conventional wisdom.

I for one am sick of this. When did Curtis LeMay and his lunatic first-strike campaign come back from disgrace?

There is one CW in Washington, and it's the one of Dick Cheney's Neo-Cons, who have dominated the foreign policy establishment for the last six years, with the silent complicity of the inept cowards of the Democratic "foreign policy establishment."

Obama's message, and Powers' argument, are almost enough to push me from tentative support of his candidacy to strong support.

Don't ya just love ax-grinding commenters?

More Obama please.

I'm still trying to figure out how Obama saying that we should attack Pakistan if they don't get their house in order would be what "pacifist Democrats" want to hear. 'Cause, um, that's kind of a war, isn't it, David?

No idea what 'pacifist Democrats' want to hear -- probably Dennis Kucinich's dulcet, slightly robotic tones -- but it's obvious that Obama isn't appealing to them, or arguing for 'attacking Pakistan'.

He's arguing for using selective force, in circumstances like attacking Osama in person, without respecting Pakistani borders. Just like Clinton's operations in Sudan and Afghanistan, but potentially a lot more dangerous because Pakistan has an army, a fundamentalist problem, and nukes. Given the risks, this is as far as any Presidential candidate should be willing to go.

More Afghanistan-like operations and fewer Iraq-like quagmires. This is a position with about 90% support in the Democratic caucus. So long as they're not paying attention to the bloviatings of so-called "Deans."

I think its pretty cool that everyone is talking about Obama. And its over substantive foreign policy debates. Quite a week, and quite a contrast over a couple weeks ago, when all the talk was about Hillary's fight against her own cleavage.

Great memo by Samantha Power.

Must be time for the press to decide to "bury" Obama.

I'm sure that's okey-dokey with Ambinder.

Powers' implication that other candidates endorse possible nuclear attacks on terrorst training camps is a huge stretch, at best, and makes her sound hysterical to me.

Excuse me? Here are Clinton's comments on the matter:

By the afternoon, Clinton (N.Y.) had responded with an implicit rebuke. "Presidents should be careful at all times in discussing the use and nonuse of nuclear weapons," she said, adding that she would not answer hypothetical questions about the use of nuclear force.

"Presidents since the Cold War have used nuclear deterrents to keep the peace, and I don't believe any president should make blanket statements with the regard to use or nonuse," Clinton said.

So what is she saying? Is she saying that Obama shouldn't make blanket statements even when he's ruling out the use of nukes in such a manner that would practically be a war crime? Or is she saying that she herself would not rule out using nukes because she actually would use nukes?

There's no stretch to either implication, as she doesn't make clear exactly what she means. What's the point of criticizing Obama if she herself wouldn't use them? To show that she buys into some ridiculous deterrent rationale that doesn't even work on terrorists?

To me it's clear that Obama comes off better here. Anybody who supports the use of nukes in Pakistan is a moron or a lunatic, and it's not damaging to to Obama's campaign for him to reject such a position, except in the mind of Beltway pundits.

Xanthippus, the only thing that's clear to me is that you are an Obama supporter.
We differ on how Powers' remarks sound. Furthermore, Hillary hasn't said anything remotely close to Powers' charge that she might drop nukes on "terrorist training camps"---whatever that phrase means.
I don't understand how Obama can try to lower the temperature on the one hand by abjuring tactical nuke, and then threaten Pakistan with unilateral attacks.
I'm beginning to think the Obama/Reagan comparisons may have merit. They both sounded crazy when it came to foreign policy.

This is very interesting. Obama has succeeded in:
-- saying sensible things that are also very controversial
-- setting the agenda
-- getting Clinton to make the self defeating argument that represents the old conventional wisdom

The polls at the beginning of September will be must reads.

My guess is that the Clinton's are beginning to realize this is a major problem for them. Why else did Bill C come out and say let's end this tiff.

Don't be surprised if HRC comes out with a new slogan about change, just as George W Bush countered McCain's rise with the slogan 'reformer with results'

I am a 46 year old, white, Navy vet, lawyer and I agree with everything that Obama has said in the last two weeks regarding foreign policy. I have agreed with everything that he has said. My two favorites were Obama and Edwards, but what is amazing to me is that up until this flare-up I was actually starting to warm up to Hillary. Now that warm fuzzy feeling is gone. This whole argument has once again brought up just how wrong Clinton, Biden, Dodd, and the beltway pundits were about Iraq. To hear them squak that Obama is naiive and irresponsible would be funny if the consequences of their mistakes had not cost thousands of Americans their lives. To me, this whole fiasco has put me in the Obama camp.

So, does this mean it's time to 'bury' Obama?


Any POTUS who ever uses a nuke to take out a single terrorist would be judged barking mad, after the fact. Any presidential candidate who insists that Serious Candidates(TM) must keep the barking mad option on the table, before the fact, is therefore nuts (if sincere) or playing to an audience of children (if merely trying to score political points). Insisting that only a stylized denial of the obvious is acceptable, when discussing nukes, may be conventional but it is not wisdom. It is not even kindergarten-level logic. It is just plain dumb. Maybe dumb still sells, in America.

Recently, Tancredo said he would "deter" al-Qaida by threatening to nuke Mecca. He was met by howls of denunciation, even from the Right. So the CW appears to concede that nukes are off the table in at least one case. At least one option to even _threaten_ to use nukes is too obviously barking mad for even the CW to countenance.

The CW is obviously not interested in principle. It is only interested in preserving its own status as arbiter of what Americans should consider unwise.

-- TP

Obama needs to pull himself out of this mess quick. It already looked amateurish to talk up the use of nukes as a rookie POTUS candidate. Trying to cover his tracks and brush it off as a battle with "conventional Washington" is silly.

http://political-buzz.com/

The co-dean of the Iowa political press corps

The Iowa Press Corps has a Dean? More than one, even? Who knew?

Oooh, is that like a mini-Broder? Sounds every bit as "serious" as Broder too. And every bit the wanker.

Obama is right. IMHO everyone claiming they'll use nukes in anything excerpt a response to a nuclear first strike is just pounding their chests and hollering.

He just shouldn't have singled out Pakistan. He sounds like Bush calling NK an axis of evil and then wanting talks with them to disarm.

If anything NK pressured Bush to get what they wanted not the other way around.

Just because Obama was smart enough to stay out of Iraq doesn't mean random military strikes in Pakistan are a good idea also. That two ideas are not related at all other than they are from Obama.

Obama will be relying on the same intel agency that said Iraq had WMD to do strikes in Pakistan. How well can that possibly turn out? More innocents dead, more foreign conflicts and the consistent perpetuation of terrorism through American foreign policy.

This is not NEW thinking. This is same stuff that doesn't work. Singling out nations and saying we're gonna bomb you if you don't stop. We don't care what the UN says... muahahha.

Open your eyes people. Bill Clinton did bombings against Bin Laden and the GOP said he was wagging the dog. Bush allowed Bin Laden to get away. Our military just can't find this guy and having Obama as president is unlikely to change that.

It's not that we can't bomb him it's that our intel is so unreliable that we'll kill 100 other people before we get the right guy. Stopping the wars will allow better field officer infiltration while allowing us to spend plenty of money on upgrading US intelligence agencies (for real this time). War is just one of many means to pressure a country into obeying international law.

Look at our the success of the cold war. Almost no one opposed that and it was 100% successful. We still wasted a lot of money on useless stuff, but the idea of fighting an economic war makes a lot more sense these days. Most importantly is that you can pull that off without the public turning on you and as our recent occupations have proven that's not the case. It's political suicide to go into an occupation like setting with potential allies surrounding the insurgents and a strong anti american sentiment already in effect.

How about we at least make it the UN's problem so we don't have to pay to police the entire world. We are wasting billions and getting little results. The war on terror is even more expensive and ineffective as the war on drugs. You can't fight a mindset like that out of people without an iron handed murderous rule. Even then you just delay the inevitable.

Maybe the first step is a realistic way to deter radical Islam without causing more terrorism and death. Then instead of funding a plan that can possibly work we can try spending our money to actually achieve our goal. Instead of endless defense contracts for an endless killing spree of targets who may or may not be terrorists we could perhaps find someway to isolate and force this out of their culture or at least contain it. Even Nazi's were popular in their day, but as the world was educated on the horrors they caused even their own public wanted them gone. That is what we need to achieve against radical Islam. Since we have no documents listing who is a terrorist and who is not we require as much cooperation from the occupied public as possible. They are more or less our best intel source and the more we win over the easier it will be to flush out terrorism. At this point however it seems unlikely we can win the Iraqi public over and therefore the war is lost. Especially with the government more or less threatening to destroy itself. We are at what should be the final stages of operation Iraqi freedom and the country can't even keep it's propped up government together. Sooooo...

Who has a better plan. Military strikes and occupation are not working. They can hide anywhere and appear as normal citizen with ease. Normal military techniques will likely never be effective against an enemy like that. Perhaps we should just let a long long time pass without meddling in their affairs and their desire to be terrorists will fade over the course of a generation or 3. I'm sure that will work but America is a culture of immediate convenience and of course, there is the oil too.

It's interesting to observe this dynamic -- one group sees Obama trying to break open the CW in order to get us to rethink our foreign policy strategy (I'm in this group), the other views his comments as embarassments and signs that he should drop out.

I'm guessing that these two responses will feed each other, that some people saying, "Obama's embarassing himself" will just feed others' impression that he must be doing something radical, which they'll like, in turn annoying the embarass group even more; repeat.

I'm rooting for Obama on this one, but he's going to make a lot of enemies in this process. I hope he makes it.

I agree Brandon...and in the worst case scenario that Obama loses to the *machine*, he will have at least brought a new consciousness to DC that the status quo needs some serious revamping...quite a contribution in and of itself.

It's interesting that people are still bloviating about Obama "attacking" Pakistan, which is obviously not the case. I have my issues with him, as with all of the candidates, but his foreign policy sounds much more sensible and practical than anything I've heard. if some nutcases in Pakistan are burning American flags, big deal. That probably isn't against the law there, either.

Ronjazz,
What was sensible about promising that Pakistan's sovereignty isn't worth a fig to Obama?
There's no way he can be trusted in negotiations in with Pak. in the future, since he has already explicit ly said he will not respect their borders.

Thanks G Davis. I agree completely. I'm reading Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest these days, and he makes a strong case that Viet Nam was really lost in the 40s and 50s when liberals and centrists not only failed to fight back effectively against McCarthy-ite foreign policy paranoia, but often actually adopted its "toughness" narratives in a self-defeating attempt to innoculate themselves against attacks from the right.

Halberstam argues, and I concur, that this sort of positioning concedes far too much of what's worth winning in the first place, turning even presidential wins Pyrrhic. Conservatives have steadily moved our goal posts way too far to the right over the last sixty years or so. We need to start moving them back, and that's why I'd support Obama right now even if it was clear to me that he wouldn't get the nomination.

New Iowa poll shows significant upward movement for Obama in several categories, and lots of room to keep moving up. I love how everyone tries to state, as if it were established fact, that Obama's views make him un-Presidential, in whatever way. The more he talks the more he sounds Presidential.

This move on his part is risky, for sure, but this is a major opportunity that's been handed to the Dems on a silver platter and no one has seized on it yet but Obama. The whole issue of - National Security is up for grabs, and the Dems can claim it by extricating us from Iraq, and actually dismantling Al-Qaeda, without shredding the Constitution. Yeah its risky, but if the Dems want to cement long-term viability, that's the way to do it. Acting like the republicans, being wishy washy about Iraq, is not going to cut it. Neither is waiting for some other horrible attack to happen somewhere. The ability to actually triumph over the group that did 9/11, while ending this tragic war, is not something that comes along very often.

A President who could do that, get a health care bill passed that actually helps people (which would remain to be seen, how well his plan would work), serious ethics reform, and repealing of Bush tax cuts, would be legendary.

This is why I trust Obama and I don't trust Hillary Clinton. Obama represents something other than the corrupt, elitist, corporate whoring disguised as sensible foreign policy that has had this country in it's grips for the last 30 years. People like JoeChi and the rest here who defend this structure are, for lack of a better or more appropriate word, evil. They hate the idea that foreign policy should be done for the good of the nation, and not a small wealthy elite. They resent the idea that the American people should have any says on policy questions at all.

That's why they support Hillary Clinton. They like corruption, and wish to see the massive corruption that is destroying our society continue, so that they can fatten their own pockets at the expense of this nation's future.

This memo says more for what isn't mentioned: Samantha Powers worked for Barack Obama. She spent 2005--2006 working in his office as an adviser for foreign affairs.

She's still advising his campaign in an informal capacity:

Key advisers in Mr. Obama's foreign policy orbit include [Susan] Rice; a Pulitzer Prize-winning anti-genocide activist, Samantha Power; a national security adviser to Mr. Clinton, Anthony Lake, and Senator Obama's foreign policy staffer, Mark Lippert.

http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=45694

Naturally, she's going to say he's the best damn thing since sliced bread.

Presidents aren't elected on the basis of their foreign policy statements. They're elected on the basis of domestic policy. Americans say their president should have foreign policy experience, even though nearly all recent presidents had little or no experience until foreign events were thrust upon them: Carter, Reagan, Clinton, and Bush 43 all learned on the job.

AFAIC, Bill Richardson has vastly more foreign policy experience and his judgment is probably more on target than Obama's.

Well, at least could we all agree that "Would you drop nukes on terrorist training camps???" is in itself a monumentally stupid--that is to say, utterly typical--instance of media gotcha-ism, the kind of idiocy that substitutes for genuine skeptical, investigative reporting in the Brave New Age of Hairstyle Journalism.

"That's a fantastically hypothetical question--I can imagine almost no circumstances under which weapons designed for destroying millions of people in a flash would be a useful tool for targeting such camps," would be a better resonse. "Under what circumstances would you use a bazooka to kill a wasp in your living room?" might be an even better one.

Well, it's been quite a week for Obama.

He's expressed his interest in meeting with Castro and Ahmadinejad without preconditions. He's expressed his willingness to unilaterally and pre-emptively invade an unstable Muslim nuclearized ally. Lastly, he's committed himself to commenting on hypotheticals involving the most lethal weapon in a Commander In Chief's military arsenal.

Obama, in one week, has unified Florida's Cubans and Jews with the world's Muslims, and all against the Democratic party.

Now, that's really an unprecidented accomplishment!

Right Joe, cause the Cubans were gonna line up to vote for us.

Speaking as one of those Muslims, I would take Obama any day over Nuke-Happy Hillary.

First, it isn't that CW got us into Iraq and those who opposed it are "fresh thinkers". There was a legitimate debate within the parameters of CW, and Obama's opposition to the war was just one flavor of it. And it's not particularly new. That's fine that he opposed the war and stands by that decision, but it's not because he stands outside CW, or because CW is always bad.

Second, the line "Conventional wisdom would have us defer to Musharraf in perpetuity," is a crock. This assumes a binary situation where Musharraf is either with us or against us - oops, who does that sound like? There is a lot of ground in between his being our enemy and his being our puppet.

It is wise and prudent to be willing to pressure Musharraf behind the scenes or even use US troops in Pakistan for covert ops that never become public. But it's irresponsible to advertise that to the world. This lack of diplomacy toward a nation that could easily swing between ally and enemy is shocking. Those who laud it are being unconscionably hawkish.

It seems that the other candidates have study their rehearsed answers but haven't really thought about the content of those answers.

Yes, presidents keep all options on the table and don't discuss hypothetical use of nuclear weapons - against nation states. That's U.S. nuclear policy and has been ever since we figured out the Soviets have a lot more conventional weapons than we did at the time.

However, it has never been U.S. policy to threaten the use of nuclear weapons against non-governmental organizations.

For Clinton and all the other Democrats and Republicans to suggest otherwise either demonstrates an ignorance of U.S. nuclear policy or suggestions of a radical departure from that policy.

When Obama said this, I thought it might have been a better thing to simply avoid. Yet in the aftermath, watching the others stumble over themselves trying to explain their criticisms of Obama, its suddenly looking like he is the only one from either party who is ready for primetime.

I believe Obama would make an excellent imperial vice president (4th branch of our "new" government.) He will need Edwards to run for president and in truth with all the bigots in this country it is a perfect marriage.
The more Obama pisses off the dinosaurs the more I like him.
Obama for IVP (no term limits either.)

Wow, regardless of what Barack Obama's campaign may actually be thinking, Ms. Power's memo is one of the most powerfully correct statements on the current state of our foreign policy and its beltway cheerleaders (er...um...scholars) that I've seen in a long time.

Thanks for reprinting it here.

Here here. I'm still undecided on support between Edwards and Obama, but this definitely helps Obama's case.

To the above commenter on the difference between NK and Pakistan.... Al Qaeda is, by most accounts, in Pakistan. NK is just run by someone who's crazy. :)

All I know, is that details aside, the more people say bad things about Obama, the better I like him. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that a lot of people feel the same way.

Duh, a President is but a figure head and is only as wise as his counsel i.e. Bush/Cheney. IMO Obama will seek the best and the brightest to fill his cabinet unlike Hillary or Dodd who owe too many Political favors.

I agree with most of Obamas remarks especially considering the were made off the cuff. I have had enough of the Bush Lite's.

It's 'Power', not 'Powers'.

I think this discussion shows that the real divide in the US is not between liberals and conservatives, or even between the neocon club and the old school insiders club. Rather it is between those who trust the public to know about and have input on important policy decisions, and those who think elites should decide everything for them. The neocons are certainly extreme practitioners of the rule-by-elites style, but they are not unique in this regard. There may be practical limitations to total transparency in government, but if you really believe in democracy I think you are stuck with those limitations. I don't think most of the beltway insiders truly believe in the concept of democracy. They don't trust the US citizens to make good judgements, so the public is seen as a group to be controlled and manipulated. I understand and even sympathize with these concerns, but I think the answer is to do a better job getting the truth out, using honest persuasion - not the domestic propaganda we have been getting the past few years (thanks to the mainstream media). Obama seems to have more faith in common Americans than the ruling elite do, and I think that is what the controversy generated by his remarks is all about. A real belief in democratic principles is labeled by the ruling elite as naivete. And for those who are convinced that elites should rule - who will hold them accountable when they make a mess of things? Unfortunately, this question is not hypothetical.

It is interesting, the different takes on this debate. For people to describe the position of speaking logically to the "American People" (the voters) about subtenant issues of foreign policy as being “dangerous” and “broadcasting to the enemy” is unbelievable.

Should we, as the electorate, expect and accept broad-brush policy rhetoric and empty platitudes as the benchmark for political debate?

How naïve are the people who claim that these policies (as espoused by Obama) are not the “conventional wisdom” of everyone outside of the US, not to mention many of us in this country.

Obama did not make any overt statements about attacking Pakistan (as is being claimed by many opponents and “serious” media elite). He said the he would act on actionable intelligence to take out members of a terrorist organization (that attacked us, by the way) who happen to be hiding in Pakistan. With the proviso that Musharraf would not or could not do something about it.

Now, for those great foreign policy “experts” who claim that there are things leaders can think, but shouldn’t say- I say, BS. I would much rather know what they are thinking, than take the chance of getting another non-thinking ignoramus, or worse, a subversive ideologue with no moral boundaries who would “drop the bomb” on those evil brown people. Unfortunately, we currently have a combination of the two, heading our Executive Branch.

I think it is probably a universally expected (or “Conventional Wisdom”) policy, that we would act to attack those who did, in fact, attack us. How we would do it is where the political distinctions would creep in. For instance, possibly we would pre-arrange an attack with Musharraf. It could be, as some have noted, something along the lines of a covert op. However, it may be that we (along with Musharraf’s knowledge) publicly take out these Al Queada positions, yet Musharraf publicly denounces our actions, perhaps to the extent of lodging complaints with the UN, or other overtly or veiled threats to us, to save face in his country.

The reality is that whatever steps we take in this regard, its nothing new. Whatever behind the scenes political maneuvering necessary to achieve a political and moral resolution, has been done before. Its not rocket science, its diplomacy. And to argue as Wulf did in the following:

“It is wise and prudent to be willing to pressure Musharraf behind the scenes or even use US troops in Pakistan for covert ops that never become public. But it's irresponsible to advertise that to the world. This lack of diplomacy toward a nation that could easily swing between ally and enemy is shocking. Those who laud it are being unconscionably hawkish.
Posted by Wulf”

- that by addressing the electorate as adults with the capacity for more than just bumper sticker platitudes, is somehow naïve or “lacks diplomacy” or is “shocking”, to me stretches the bounds of credulity. It is more of the “serious” “foreign policy expert” groupthink that got us in these messes in the first place.

I for one, as an independent, was a tepid supporter of Obama, at best. I was still very much playing the field. After this, I feel I can say that his responses to the issues has put me more firmly behind him.

Sorry, typo alert

"subtenant" should be substantive

Don't know how that got past spell check

Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive, but for some reason I didn't assume that the statement about nukes in the memo was meant to imply anything about Hillary. I get that if the memo is calling anyone stupid, it's the DC chinpullers like Jokeline who think it's fun to talk about nukes being "on the table" as a preemptive response to the "threat" from Iran. It also looks like a slap to the idiots who asked such a nitwit gotcha question in the first place, dreaming their little dreamy dreams of when Dukakis blew the one about what he'd do if his wife got raped and murdered (an equally inane question).

"Um, sorry stupid, but you don't use weapons designed to vaporize millions of people in a flash against a handful of people living in tents in someone else's country." That seems clear enough to me, even if it's not phrased quite that impolitely. The fact that some Yepsen item has set himself as the arbiter of "what everyone will think" about Obama's non-lunatic answer only indicates the need for more non-lunatic answers and fewer Yepsens.

I think BushCheneyGiulianiRomney have the Curtis LeMay angle pretty well covered and not being a sociopath myself I'm pretty okay with Obama's response. Does that mean I think Hills is advocating dropping nukes on Pakistan? Um, no, not really..

All I know, is that details aside, the more people say bad things about Obama, the better I like him. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that a lot of people feel the same way.
-Paul Dirks

I have to agree. I was never a committed Obama supporter, but I cannot see supporting anyone else right now. The more they attack him, the more it reminds me of how wrong they were.

Obama's comments have served him well. Until last week (and the "preconditions" issue) my attitude toward him was ho-hum...blah-blah-blah...more liberal prattling about "healing." BFD.

But his statements on foreign affairs have gotten my attention in very positive way. He's correct on the substance. The man has an independent mind and the courage to speak against the grain, which politically is what I believe American's want right now.

The foreign policy establishment has gotten the country in the biggest blunder in the nation's history and people see it. Obama is correct politically to speak against the conventional wisdom and to meet criticisms with terms like "ridiculous."

btw, how many elections has Yepsen won?

"“It is wise and prudent to be willing to pressure Musharraf behind the scenes or even use US troops in Pakistan for covert ops that never become public. But it's irresponsible to advertise that to the world. This lack of diplomacy toward a nation that could easily swing between ally and enemy is shocking. Those who laud it are being unconscionably hawkish."

That's the same sort of dishonesty behind the Bush argument that James Risen of the NYT compromised U.S. security by letting Al Qaeda know they were being wiretapped. Of course Al Qaeda knows that they are being wiretapped -- with or without FISA warrants. And of course "the world" knows that the U.S. uses all sorts of back channels and covert pressure. No, this secrecy is always aimed at the American people, to manipulate public opinion and to hide policy and actions of which they might not approve. In the case of Pakistan, most Americans would not approve of how the U.S. has, through its dealings with Pakistan, enabled Al Qaeda and the production and dissemination of nuclear weapons to those hostile to us. Obama's stance here isn't much different from if he had said back in the early '80s that he wouldn't support Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran. There's a reason that most Americans have never seen that picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam.

Tuth Machine,

Haven't seen you in a while, since some time ago on GG's site.

Your point is exactly what I was trying to convey. You used an excellent example of the "Wiretap" meme.

People act like these ideas of diplomacy and foreign relations are some super top-secret, hyper-intellectual, beyond the logical capabilities of the "plain folk" that we "traitors" advertise to the enemy as if it is outing CIA agents... oops, already did that.

Hell, anyone with access to a computer or a Tee Vee can see old covert ops and back-channel tactics used by our country, all made public by our very own gov't. LOC, FOIA, sunset provisions on dated info, presidential records act, etc.

A good, tart synopsis of why I support Obama. (And, a good summation of why I follow Ms. Power's candidate preferences.)

The nuclear ambiguity thing is an outdated Cold War hangover. The idea is to convey the message that you just might be insane enough to bomb Moscow, so the Russkies best not try anything. Anyone who thinks that nuking a terrorist camp is a viable option is certifiable, and Obama should be congratulated, not pilloried, for pointing that out.

The thing with the hot pursuit thing is that Musharraf is dragging the chain and everyone knows it. He has his reasons, based largely in having to balance competing interests and not wanting to create an alliance between Islamists, antimilitary and prodemocracy elements. There is simply nothing in it for Musharraf if he attacks the Taliban or AQ in Waziristan.

I don't know though that there's any easy solution. Yeah, you could take out Osama, if he's still alive and you can find him, but any largescale attack is more difficult, logistically and politically.

Keep in mind, when we talk about giving Pakistan or anyone else "hundreds of millions of dollars in military aid," we're talking mostly about materiel that is designed and manufactured by the American Military-Industrial Complex. So the money doesn't really go to Pakistan, it goes to FOB's (friends of Bush). Halliburton undoubtedly fits itself into the picture somewhere, no?

amazing to see people atacking obama by citing sniggering remarks by discredited pundits.

containment was the most successful foreign policy of the 20th century. we used hot war to contain and eliminate fascism, cold war to contain and erase stalinism. containment involves power, alliances. hot and cool diplomacy and the commitment of freedom loving people around the world to fight any spreading of a villainous ideology, and to encircle places where that villainy is entrenched (knowing that it will ultimately crumble). these are all things the bushistas have failed to accomplish at any level.

nothing obama has said contradicts the basic predicate of containment and in fact his words make perfect sense as a containment baseline for the battle against islamic fascism. obama's words will resonate, sniggering aside.

I'd like to use several comments above, GlenO's and propulgate's among them, to suggest that the very nature of this, our discourse is proof positive that "conventional wisdom" exists, especially as espoused by Mssrs Yespen, Broder and the general Beltway lot: There is an exceedingly limited, binary view of Obama's comments without regard to the context of his comments, the larger ideas behind them.

That is, our deeply discussing the issues, online or off, is clearly separate from Beltway rhetoric that does not reflect this dialogue in the least little bit.

IMHO, this is fundamental disconnect is why we see Hardball's Mr Matthews discuss public opinion on economic policy with Mr Cramer, preferring to toss that widespread opinion under the bus as "not fair" while decrying the woes of hedge funds. (Hedge funds!)

I am personally aghast at how "conventional wisdom" is unreflective of how grotesquely distended the political spectrum has become: What were traditional conservative principles are way, way to the left of what is now "conservative" (no matter the prefix) as represented by the 109th Congress and the present Administration. What should rightly be radical or extreme has become an acceptable norm, and vice-versa ... at least to hear the Beltway folk speak on it.

And this, to me, is why I find the discussion of Obama so fascinating: Why is *his* position so radical (or so immature) especially when compared to the rest of Presidential hopefuls, whether Dem or "more bellicose than thou" GOP?

Hillary is an impressive politician, no doubt. She's "on message" all the time. She is tremendously careful not to take a stand that is beyond what conventional wisdom dictates, and then only if it is enormously supported by polling data. And that's what bothers me: I don't have a sense of her as a person, but politician-as-characteristics.

I don't have any confidence that she's not, beneath her increasingly well-formed sound bites, just someone who's been inside the Beltway for far too long, been beaten down too much by too many, that she's utterly inable to affect change in any appreciable way. IMHO, the greater HIllary's activities, the more inert she becomes. And that will amount to so little change in conventional wisdom as to be none at all.

I think we all need change, but good. The question then becomes how that change will be served: By thoughtful action, if not compromise, that reflects our dialogue? Or by a set of characteristics-as-action, as prescribed by this conventional wisdom?

I know this is a bit off topic, but I have to respond to people referring to the ultra-liberal wing of the Democratic Party as "the Deans."

I lived in VT while Howard Dean was Governor there and he is hardly "ultra-liberal." In fact, he's quite moderate; he helped to provide healthcare for children while decreasing the size of state government, he signed the civil union bill despite his own opposition to it because it was clear it was what he populace wanted, and he balanced the state budget without raising income taxes.

I believe the national news media wanted the rest of the country to believe Dean was a left-wing nut job because they were scared of the change he represented, much in the same way Obama is being criticized now.

Don't believe me? First, look at who's the chair of the Democratic Party right now - that's right, it's Howard Dean. Do you think it's just coincidence that the Dems seemed to take a different tack in the last election and are now poised to retake the White House with candidates that represent change, like Obama, at the fore?

I'm not calling Dean the savior of the Democratic party, all I'm saying is that despite the "old guards'" best attempts, new ideas continue to come through and I think Americans might just be ready for them even if the media prefers their same old cozy "you scratch my back..." relationship they have had with beltway politicians in recent years.

...and as for "the scream" that was an over-blown media invention completely aimed at destroying Dean's candidacy and the public bought into it. It's sad that Dean's biggest mistake in running for President was using the microphone he used.

I think we all need a little shot of reality.

In the perfect utopia, the need to attack your enemy wouldnt not be needed, but unfortunately it is not.

How come everyone missed that HILLARY said the exact same thing right after Obama's speech on Foreign Policy?

Watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlx3ADyAnzk

It's time to set the record straight.

I know this is a bit off topic, but I have to respond to people referring to the ultra-liberal wing of the Democratic Party as "the Deans."

Um, that's not what the term means. Not even close.

@Zork: Unless I'm misreading this post and its comments, the term "Deans" is used to refer to the alleged deans of journalism, a la "co-dean of the Iowa political press corps ..."

@Mike: I agree we all need a dose of reality, and that's precisely why it's important to distinguish the dialogue of the beltway deans -- the conventional wisdom -- from that of the rest of the country who understand & discuss precisely what you're saying. It's a necessary reinforcement.

The "attacking Pakistan" affair was a carefully set up Clinton hit job on Obama. If you take it seriously, you're an idiot and a dupe. "If you knew where bin Laden was in Pakistan, and Musharraf refused to take him out, would you go in yourself?" -- obviously you would, and any candidate who suggests otherwise is lying. As for the "nuclear" thing, would Hillary Clinton refuse to rule out the use of nuclear weapons to take out an al-Qaeda cell that was discovered in Britain? If she did refuse to rule it out, what would be the consequences of THAT gaffe to American foreign policy? This is a clever hit job, clearly set up by Clinton's people, and reporters are playing along.

Leadership means standing up and saying what needs to be said even if the conventional wisdom says you are wrong. When you make a stand on principles like this an amazing thing can happen: People who were on the fence suddenly see someone ready to make a strong principled stand and that swings them in their direction. Suddenly the conventional wisdom begins to look less conventional.

The Democratic party has been filled lately with people who don't make principled stands on things. They put their finger in the wind and try to figure out what people will think of their positions. This chases the people on the fence toward someone, anyone, who is actually taking a passionate position. Those people, for the past 25 years, have been Republicans and it brought them great success even though many of their ideas are batshit crazy.

If this is the kind of leadership that Barak Obama is ready to stand for: standing up and saying what needs to be said despite conventional wisdom. . . then he is the kind of leader I want in Washington. I was on the fence before this and now you can count me in as one of the people swinging toward a real leader rather than just a skillful politician.

If someone is harboring a widely known criminal and enemy, who killed 3000 Americans, and we know it with real intelligence, they have no soveriegnty. That's just common sense.

Using a nuclear bomb on anyone first is batshit crazy. That's just common sense.

We need a little more common sense and a little less common wisdom.

Zork-

he helped to provide healthcare for children while decreasing the size of state government

Link?

Please show a single year when the "state gov't" decreased during any of Dean's tenure.

I only found this(PDF).
I see that Vermont tax revenues grew by over 20% between 2004 and 2006... Obviously, Dean failed at his effort to "starve the beast".

Oops!

Blew my link (PDF)...