Rudy Giuliani And The Solubility of Illegal Immigration

What's the difference between a change of position and a change in tone?

On so many issues -- abortion rights, gay rights, gun rights, and now immigration, Giuliani has adopted the language, intonation and policy orientation of a conservative while insisting that his underlying position hasn't changed.

Does it really matter if Giuliani says he is pro-choice if he'll appoint pro-life "(non-activist")judges? That he supports domestic partnership benefits for gays if he won't sign any do-pa legislation while in office? That he's hard on illegal immigration if he won't deport the 12M illegals already here?

One cannot listen to this excerpt of Giuliani, taken from an apperance before the Kennedy School of Government in 1996, and conclude that, in the back of his mind, Giuliani was somehow arguing that if only our law enforcement techniques got better, we'd be able to solve the problem. He was making an affirmative argument that solving the problem itself could be more harmful than preserving the status quo So -- clearly -- Giuliani's argument has changed.

Perhaps 9/11 is responsible; perhaps the events of that day convinced him of the imperative of finding a solution to this insoluble problem. Perhaps he has adjusted his tone for political reasons.

Is it fair to compare Giuliani and immigration to Mitt Romney and abortion? Well, Romney changed his mind about abortion and admits it.

Jason Miller, a Giuliani spokesperson, e-mails:

“As the Mayor made clear in his comments over a decade ago the technology simply did not exist to completely secure the border in 1996. Reasonable people understand we have made great technological strides in the past 11 years and our national security now depends on stopping the flow of illegal immigrants to our country. The fact of the matter is we can and must end illegal immigration, and Mayor Giuliani is the leader our country needs to get it done.”

A side note: it might be tougher for Romney to try to turn this particular issue into an example of Rudy's flip-flopping, given the reams of YouTube videos purporting to document his own evolution. Romney is on safer ground when he argues that Giuliani is weak on immigration, not that he's changed his position.

Comments

All candidates(including Giuliani)pander to get elected. However Giuliani has something that no other candidate, be it Republican or Democrat has, an outstanding record of accomplishment to point to, ie the political-social revolution that occurred in NYC during his time as Mayor. Only a LEADER can produce these results, ie someone tough enough to ignore,media, pundits & selfish minorities in pursuit of a worthy goal-this is precisely what Giuliani did in NYC, and this is exactly why so many people seek to stop him.....Think of what he would do to Washington!!

Posted by john | August 15, 2007 7:46 PM

I couldn't agree more John!!!

Posted by John Michael in Canada | August 15, 2007 8:20 PM

Put Up or Shut Up

The case of one Ms. Elvira Arellano.
She's an illegal alien held up in a church
that's giving her sanctuary from I.C.E..
Now she wants to leave the church
to lobby U.S. Congress for amnesty.

Now I'm Pro-immigration,
and i think it's good for the country.

But since my good friends
Michael Chertoff, Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani
have thrown down the gaunlet
on illegal aliens?

Will they have
what it takes to kick her out?
Do you have the balls
to get the job done boys?
(or is this all just talk?)

Personally,
i would grant her amnesty.
But i lost the argument
to Michael, Mitt and Rudy.

So i really want to know
what you fellas are going to do
with one Ms. Elvira Arellano?

She broke the law.
Now it's time
to put up or shut up.

Posted by Steve Real | August 15, 2007 10:25 PM

Sorry Steve,
No, illegal aliens will prevail. There is no need for Amnesty. They have it already. It doesn't matter they are breaking coded U.S. Statuate Laws!
Citizens put them in place to defend us. Then we elected people who won't enforce them while they join the pillaging crowd!
The average genuine American Citizen is saying
"farewell" to the nation he built, sacrficed for, and personally defended in his life.
People no longer have confidence in the nations government because the government is not defending the citizen.
We're defeated by our own government. Anarchy and lawlessness will prevail. Our way of life is lost because of the character of those we have elected.

Posted by Done Deal | August 15, 2007 10:54 PM

Immigration - Undocumented and illegal immigrants should never have a roadmap to U.S. citizenship.

The words illegal immigrants define people who are officially in this Country without legitimate authorization and who have crossed over our boundaries of criminology. In the same light undocumented reference is intended to reflect the chaos and confusion associated with such criminology. Thus, the line between legal and illegal is thin and squiggly, and at best any idea of officially incorporating the two circumstances into a roadmap to U.S. citizenship is the equivalent of the Government officially granting a form of amnesty to criminals, which may open a can of worms that could completely infect our current criminal justice system with dire consequences of irreversible imperfection. From that point on how can there ever be a set standard by which to determine any legality, in a situation that began illegally?

Just as legalizing smoking pretty much destroyed America's health system, legalizing illegal immigrants may overwhelm the already stretched to the limit criminal justice system with civil and felony crimes, motor vehicle offenses and domestic disputes. At the time no one anticipated the extremely adverse effect smoking would have on America's healthcare over the years. Current statistics show that more than one hundred thousand people die each year from second hand cigarette smoke. And another one hundred thousand suffer from smoking related diseases at a staggering healthcare expense on the economy.

Smokers addicted to nicotine are hardcore liars who will do just about anything to continue their smoking habit; including outright pretending they don't know that their second hand smoke effects everyone around them from anywhere between fifteen and twenty-five cubic feet of air space. They have no consideration for their own children let alone other people's children or their supposed loved pets. In essence smokers are worse than illegal drug users. Unlike smokers, at least illegal substance abusers go off into their own little world and pollute themselves. In addition, smoking is the common link to most people going on to illegal drug abuse.

Using smoking as an example in which many people experiment with harsher drugs, it would only be a matter of time before amnesty granted illegal immigrants tire of doing the job Americans supposedly don't want to do, and begin competing with Americans for higher paying more prestigious jobs. As well, using smoking as a learning experience, it is inevitable that amnesty granted illegal immigrants will have a devastating effect on America's economy costing far more than their worth when it comes to healthcare, education, social services, pregnancies, housing and unforeseen mishaps.

One unforeseen mishap is that it would only be a matter of time before hardcore criminals behind bars begin using illegal immigrant amnesty laws to challenge the criminal justice system keeping them behind bars. After all, how can the law grant amnesty for whatever reason to people who are not even citizens of this country without granting some sort of amnesty to its own criminals who are behind bars for illegality? In my opinion immigration is not the answer to America's work force problem.

Instead, why not kill two birds with one stone: Alleviate the overcrowding costs of America's prisons, by developing and supervising sentence reduction and early release work incentive programs for non-violent prisoners in exchange for them doing the jobs Americans supposedly don't want to do as opposed to amnesty immigration?

Copyright 2007 by Aaron Westley Powell

Posted by Aaron Powell | August 15, 2007 11:12 PM

Perhaps this site could use its access to ask Rudy about his "foreigners only" biometric ID card. What are citizens going to use? Won't illegal aliens simply use what citizens are going to use, with only legal immigrants and legal foreign workers using Rudy's ID? Won't it thus be ineffective? And, to make it effective, won't Rudy - someone who isn't exactly strong on those good old civil liberties - then have to make the ID for everyone? And, not to mention the endless bias suits that would result if employers ask naturalized citizens who speak with an accent for their "foreigners only" ID.

Rudy's got some high-powered advisors. Too bad the media is too corrupt to put them to the test.

Posted by TLB | August 16, 2007 12:19 AM

Rudy is not tough on immigration.

He has said he will not deport those here already.

Rudy is going to give 12 - 20 million illegals amnesty.

It is estimated that in 10 years the unfunded entitlement for these illegals will be 2.2 trillion dollars.

Are you ready to pay?

Posted by Bettybb | August 16, 2007 1:05 AM

Rudy is not tough on immigration.

He has said he will not deport those here already.

Rudy is going to give 12 - 20 million illegals amnesty.

It is estimated that in 10 years the unfunded entitlement for these illegals will be 2.2 trillion dollars.

Are you ready to pay?

Posted by Bettybb | August 16, 2007 1:05 AM

Rudy is tough on immigration: he has said that before those illegals can get citizenship, two huge hurdles have to be cleared: first, we have to control the border; second, the illegals have to pay a fine and go back home and get to the back of the line of people waiting to get in! How is that amnesty? Hell, if Rudy manages to get control of the border, and I think he will, I'm not so worried about the people already here. What I didn't like was the idea that that 12 million illegals would soon double and double and double again, because the politicians were not serious about controlling the border. Legal immigration is great, but illegal immigration is ultimately bad for all sides.

I want to second john's first comment above, too. Right on the money. Those of you in doubt about Giuliani, give him another look. He's a brilliant, fearless, pugnacious bulldog. He's extremely effective. The reason he took on the mob, both as a prosecutor and mayor and won against them every time, is that courage is his default mode, and he felt genuine righteous anger against them, and was positively raring for a battle with them. He's a hell of a character and a rugged individual. See Fred Siegel's Prince of the City: Giuliani, New York and the Genius of American Life. Above all, Giuliani is a somebody, a person with real guts and a real mind of his own, not another generic, faceless hack politician. He's been wrong at times in his life, but his sense of right and wrong is more energetic and clear-sighted than that possessed by any of the other candidates. That's why I'm voting for Romney. (Just kidding, I'm for Giuliani all the way.)

Posted by traeh | August 16, 2007 5:21 AM

We hear so often that they are illegal and we are for rule of law.Natzis said that jews were bad for german society and they were rounded up.What followed we all know.Yet after war Natzis claimed they acted legally according to german law by killing jews.Legality is tricky term.Is somebody doing something legal can be wrong and unjust?Virtually anybody coming here for centuries were allowed to stay unless sick or insane.American Revolution was techniclly an illegal act against british rule.
Fact that milions of people are in prisons tells me that we are not that sqeeky clean when it comes to legality.Legal immigration is for families (chain migration)or rich people only.All the others are forced to cross border or overstay visas. Employers hire unauthorized workers get richer, live american dream have house in suburbs,spend money,economy gets better we all better for it.Send immigrants home en masse you will get great depresion send them slowly you will get recession over long period of time.Losing taxpayers that dont collect refunds or get social security while paying to the system is the best deal any country can have.That is why congress wont legalize them.That a cash cow for federal government and only a small burden for states(health care and education)If unathorized worker has health insurance and not too many kids in public school he is a cash cow for state.
Instead of spending money on foreign aid let them stay,work,pay taxes,we can save social security and housing market that way.
Where is american pragmatism.We need to think what we say not say what we fell.Countries with with higher immigration,legal or not do better and everybody gets richer even low skill workers.We have natural fear of outsiders especially when they look differentand they react by sticking together and not accepting us.Its time to break vicious circle.Lets not look at numbers that unfunded liabilities will cost trilions of dollars.It is highly hipotetical.Exactly the same scary tactics were used against irish and italians back in the days.Lets look at the fact that without illegal immigrants paying to social security fund system would collapse as of today.So if you ss reciepent and if you are for sending those folks home think twice.We have a islamic enemy and we should do anything to make as stronger in that fight.What we do instead?we try to give weapons to saudi arabia and fight illegal residents when 75 % ot the pays taxes like every citizen and all of them pay sales taxes they rent and buy cars supporting economy.They are less likely to commit crimes or use public services,yet if one of them commits crime it all over news for weeks.Dont listen to talk show hosts.They are on tv for milions od dollars they make,and they make up numbers and twist the facts.They are not jurnalist looking for thruth,they natzi agitators who care the about ratings.

Posted by john | August 16, 2007 9:50 AM

A lot of "johns" on this thread: I agree with the one who posted August 15, 7:46 PM. Don't agree at all with the "john" who posted August 16, 9:50 AM. 9:50 AM John confuses things that have nothing to do with each other and basically makes the perfect the enemy of the good: he's telling us that if society doesn't follow laws perfectly, it shouldn't try at all to be a law-based society. Law doesn't matter, at least when it's not convenient to him. Immigration, he apparently thinks, should be completely unregulated. Let migration flows be completely spontaneous, according to whoever wants to come over the border whenever they want to come over the border. The absurdity of that position in itself hardly requires comment, and that's without going into the fact that jihadists from the Middle East and elsewhere are infiltrating into South and Central America and setting up alliances with drug cartels to get over the border into the U.S. These jihadists are learning Spanish and pretending to be hispanic. I wonder what country "john" of the 9:50 AM post is from. Probably from some country where corruption is endemic and law is a joke. Otherwise why would he be so happy-go-lucky about ignoring laws? The distinction between lawful immigration and completely unregulated and illegal immigration is all-important to a society that, however imperfect, seeks to be law-based and to improve.

Posted by traeh | August 16, 2007 11:03 AM

Rudy and Mitt both are flipfloppers. The difference is Mitt is ready to jump into bed with anyone while Rudy is willing to go on his knees infront of any and every rightwing and neocon crowd.

Overall Rudy is a cross-dressing, racist, married to his own cousin while having mistresses, who flies like a voulture over innocents who died on 9/11.

Giuliani needs to answer the following questions:

- Why is Giuliani still employing his childhood friend and a priest, Monsignor Alan Placa, who is accused of Child Molestation in his law firm? Giuliani employs Placa as a consultant at Giuliani Partners despite a Suffolk County, NY, grand jury report that accuses Placa of sexually abusing children, as well as helping cover up the sexual abuse of children by other priests. Why is Rudy protecting a credibly accused child molester?

- Why did Rudy make a criminal like Bernie Kerik, once his personal driver, his police chief? Why did he recommend him for the post of Chief of Homeland Security?

- Why you failed to show up at ALL the meetings of Iraq Study Group?

- Why earning $100K for a speech is more important than attending meetings of Iraq study Group?

- Why you were kicked out of Iraq Study Group by your own republican colleagues like James Baker?

- Why is Rudy paying his wife $125,000?

- Why Rudy likes to dress up in women's clothes or in drag?

Here are some highlights of his career:

## Rudy is a total fraud on terrorism. He set up the emergency command center in WTC after the fisr attacks! Then he used his office in the emergency command bunker as a love nest where he conducted his extramarital affair with then-girlfried Judith Nathan.

## Rudy is racist. Checkout this clip:
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/59603/
In this deeply offensive and infuriating clip Rudy dressed as an African tribesman, complete with face paint and a spear, and using lions in the zoo to make a "joke" about his attitude towards welfare. He compares welfare recepients to animals.

## Rudy's running on terrorism. But he got booted off a congressionally-mandated blue ribbon 9/11 commission because he couldn't be bothered to show up for the meetings. Rudy also put the emergency command center in WTC after the first attack in 90's showing he has no leadership qualities.

## He is a practicing catholic? He criticized the Vatican for attacking then-President Bill Clinton's decision to veto a ban on late-term abortion. Giuliani said the church's "direct involvement in politics is not a good idea,
because I think it confuses people."

## Rudy has dressed up in women's clothes multiple times in public for many different gay&lesbian fundraisers. He even dressed up in drag on Saturday Night Live when he hosted the season première back in 1997. After one of his divorces he even lived with two gay-roommates and would kiss them on the cheek everyday before he went to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IrE6FMpai8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb2y1IM17s

## Rudy is hiding his personal life. Where Brownback, Huckabee and Romney proudly display their families, Giuliani strives to avoid any mention of his personal life. Rudy says, "I believe that things about my personal life should be discussed personally and privately," he said. "It's just sort of gossip. I've never been big on gossip. But when the Mayor decided to divorce his second wife, he did so in a very public manner, blasting Donna Hanover and mentioning that treatments for his prostate cancer left him impotent:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E5DB143AF936A25756C0A9679C8B63

Mr. Giuliani, as those of you who have been camping on the Arctic Circle may not have heard, wants a divorce from his wife, Donna Hanover. Ms. Hanover still resides at Gracie Mansion, and the two are currently in court arguing about whether the mayor should be allowed to bring his girlfriend, Judith Nathan, to events on the first floor of the residence, which is open to the public.

The Hanover team refers to this as the ''paramour-access motion.''

Then last weekend Team Rudy, angry over Ms. Hanover's refusal to agree to a joint gag order, unleashed a series of first-strike assaults. Via leaked court papers, the mayor's associates revealed that Mr. Giuliani is impotent as the result of treatment he's had for prostate cancer. The tabloids were full of stories about ''Rudy's secret sorrow,'' explanations on why Viagra won't help, how cuddling was still an option.

The idea was apparently to win sympathy for the mayor, who lost the marital high ground back when he announced his separation at a press conference before he told his wife. His lawyer, Raoul Felder, assured people that his client had no reservations about the strategy. Besides the impotence -- which the mayor hopes will be temporary -- the revelations included claims that Ms. Hanover didn't lend a hand when he was sick from his cancer treatments, and that she disturbed him with her early morning workouts. (''At 5 a.m. she started with the machines, with the exercising,'' said Mr. Felder.)

The Giuliani camp was happy with the results of the offensive -- which also included a claim by the lawyer that the next mayor would have to drag Ms. Hanover off the Gracie Mansion chandelier. ''I know they were taken aback,'' said Mr. Felder of the opposition. ''I was told their forces were in disarray. This is hardball in the big leagues here.''

## Rudy's affair with Lategano as quoted on A. Sullivan's blog recently. Lategano was working as Giuliani's Press Secretary when their affair began, and was later elevated to Communications Director. When the affair ended in May of 1999, he installed her at the helm of the city's tourism bureau, a $150k/year plum. Lategano, now married, denies that anything improper took place, but Rudy himself has issued a series of artful non-denial denials. His ex-wife, Donna Hanover, has blamed Lategano in public statements and court papers for the demise of her marriage. Wayne Barrett, a sort of dark Boswell to Rudy's Johnson, assembled a vast amount of circumstantial evidence backing the allegation. And no one who moved in those circles bothers doubting it for a second; the affair was, by its conclusion, common knowledge in the city - what would once have been termed 'open and notorious adultery.' The Lategano affair embodies the very worst of Rudy - his penchant for mixing private relationships with public business, his duplicity, and his cronyism. Giuliani had an affair with a (much younger) subordinate, and then pensioned her off on the public dime.

## Rudy says he worked as much as workers did at WTC site! It seems that Giuliani is determined to take every opportunity to exploit the memory of 9/11 for political gain, rather than honor the incredible sacrifices of our first responders.
He has an underlying contempt for the folks who ended up sacrificing their health or even their lives during the clean-up process.

###########

We need answers from Rudy. Speak up Rudy.

Posted by PhonyRudy | August 16, 2007 1:38 PM

Use of taxes without paying any is the real issue but studies also fail to account for the illegal immigrants paying out taxes with fake or fraudulent SSNs never to receive benefits. Media again fails to mention tax stolen every year by legal persons simply lying on their taxes (200 million file but 50K audited.) Also, any worker making income, should pay taxes or receive no benefit from taxes. Any legal landscape worker, day field worker, etc. sent for replacement probably will escape tax as well, especially when given as gifts under $50. It should be simple, if you can’t prove you paid taxes for it, you don’t get the benefit. Social Security and retirement systems have worked this way forever. If I contributed enough then I get if not, tough luck. If I didn’t pay my taxes I shouldn’t get free school, medical, or to even breathe government subsidized air particles. I should have to catch up on my taxes, or pay a premium for the service, either before or after it is rendered. Also related; most of the new local laws mistakenly apply to all visitors, whether they are simply out-of-state citizens or full fledged illegal immigrants, aka you can’t rent/buy a home, buy/rent a car, or get any services if you aren’t from that city/state. I have to agree with amnesty, but at a price that pays for processing, say $1000 a piece, a little more than normal residency paperwork. If we give them all SSNs they can all pay taxes and we will know where they live. If they skip out, then kick them out. There could be no stupider move than to alienate these undocumented persons into a herd of hatred and terrorism by stealing their minimum wage jobs and old junky cars then kicking them out of their trashy housing into the streets with no choice but to cash in on all those wonderful tax benefits everyone speaks about like any other lazy US citizen who finds a way to skip out on taxes. I don’t see how anyone can take a stand the other solutions suggested. Giuliani has the knowledge, experience, power, and devotion to fix the problem.

Posted by ILoveImmigrantsLOL | August 16, 2007 2:04 PM

john you are nothing more then a racist jackass
we need to be tough on all illegal immigrants
not fell sorry for idiots you illegals Never
pay state or local taxes you all take more then they
give and send it to your home country do more research Next time !! if you think we owe you
something for coming here illegally you are
a fool we have people from all over the world
coming here that are from poorer country's your
just upset that your people cant get away with
braking every law in this country !!

Posted by ruben | August 17, 2007 12:49 AM

This blog does a good of recognizing the obvious in that Romney and Giulian both are flip-floppers and cannot be trusted by Republicans to support their core values. The Republicans would be way better off electing Ron Paul or Huckabee.

Posted by Patrick Glover | August 17, 2007 12:24 PM