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The LOGO Debate: Marriage Is The Question

10 Aug 2007 07:39 am

(Here's the Hillary Clinton story)

When LOGO announced the first ever television forum of gay and lesbian candidates, two thoughts came to mind. Either Democratic presidential candidates no longer feared the “gay friendly” label, or they did -- but it didn’t matter because (a) the gay rights lobby is too important a constituency to shaft and/or (b) the candidates believe it’s the right thing to do. It’s helpful to look at this debate through two lenses: the hopeful lens of the gay community and the skeptical lens of the pundit who is always peering around the corner at the general election.

Assessing the body language of the candidates to see who was the most comfortable is probably best left to that "expert" who Bill O"Reilly interviews a few times a month, Obama's extreme fluency with the nuance of gay rights issues was married with language that did not seem contrived or out-directed. Perhaps he expresses the worldview of his (younger) generation.

Both Obama and Sen. John Edwards were pressed to explain their stances against gay marriage – that’s the holy grail for many (though by no means all) of the gay community.

Obama was at his best. Though he dipped into the lingua franca at times (“DOMA, strong civil unions”), he refused to condescend to the audience and refused to compromise even as he was questioned fairly sharply: “You’re letting religion own the word marriage,” he was told. His own position was cast as “decidedly old school.”

But why not allow the gays to use the word “marriage?” Obama: “Semantics might be important to some. What I’m concerned about is making sure legal rights are available to all people.” Is the gay rights movement the same as the civil rights movement? Obama: “I’m always very cautious about getting into comparisons of victimology.” That said, the brunt of his answers turned on that very comparison – how he got into politics because “I don’t like people looking down on other people.” There were some questions he didn’t precisely answer, but he managed to not answer in such a sophisticated and – to this audience – compassionate way, that it didn’t really matter. It’s hard to say for sure, but it didn’t seem as if any answer will pose a problem for him later.

John Edwards, too, was strong: he recalled a recent visit to a Los Angeles home for out gay kids whose parents kicked them out. He threw in an Ann Coulter mention. He compared the experience of gay Americans with the experience of blacks in the South. He denied Bob Shrum’s claim that he ever said he wasn’t comfortable around gay people. He said forthrightly that he still opposed gay marriage but agreed with Obama about a “strong” array of civil rights for gays. He said he would accept and support a staff member who changed genders. He said kids should be taught about homosexuality although he wasn’t prepared to say what grade level curriculum should include it.

Dennis Kucinich was and is beloved by the gay community.

Bill Richardson seemed a little bit out of sorts but survived.

Comments (65)

The LGBT community will never accept John Edwards as long as he keeps up with his stump speech about how "conflicted" he is over gay marriage. To them, how can he be "conflicted" over basic civil rights?

http://political-buzz.com/

"over basic civil rights"

I really don't consider that a "basic" civil right. Thats like saying your "Basic Necessities" are Food, Shelter, water and cable TV.

The Purpose of Marriage is Relationship and Procreation, its that simple. We don't need to turn Black & White FACTS into Grey to make a segment of our population feel better about themselves.

Last I check Procreation can only be carried out by Male & Female, no other combination, again its that simple.

To compare Gay and Lesbian recognition a "Civil Right" is insulting to the Black community as well as the Womens movement. In both these cases the people were treated as less then equal.

Gay & Lesbians have no such problems - the only area they consider themselves less then equal is Marriage - which doesn't even apply to them.

Marriage is a Union of a Man & Union blessed by God, A God who, as we conveniently forget, is opposed to same sex sexual relationships.

Lets keep it simple huh, Marriage is between Man and Women for the purpose of Relationship & Procreation & Blessed by GOD = SIMPLE.

We need to stop trying to turn society on it head to change what doesn't apply to the Gay & Lesbians.

Pochrist

Welcome to the 21st century where there is overpopulation, civil rights, evolution and diet soda.

There are two aspects of marriage involved here, the religious and the civil. The civil side has nothing to do with your antiquated view of spirituality and God.

Via the separation of church and state, we are asking for the civil rights afforded to all other Americans. We're not asking for a place in your church pew.

--
Matt

P.S. Please don't insult black people and women by speaking for their entire minority, especially when there are plenty of people in those communities making the comparison to our struggle.

Yikes Pochrist...you should be signing your hatred as Antichrist.

Yes, because anyone who doesn't agree with every minority stance is an antichrist.

As long as the GOP uses gay marriage and/or gay folks as an agenda item it will always be played out in the political arena. God forbid the GOP actually focuses on things to better our Country.....instead of pandering to get get Bubba and Cooter Jones' vote.

So heterosexual marrieds who have no children aren't *really* married, right, Pochrist?

We should then probably take away the legal protections of marriage from the infertile.

Pochrist, I'll go ahead and grant you your definition of marriage in a religious context. I'll allow you and your church to sanctify a union in the manner which you feel is right.

However, your point that marriage is purely for procreation means that infertile couples, older couples or couples that don't want to have children should be denied the ability to enter into a marriage contract?

We're talking about civil marriage, or at least civil unions so long as it grants the same legal rights as the term "marriage". No one is forcing your church or any church to hold gay marriage ceremonies.

Gay marriage won't turn society on its head. For those (many on the religious right) who look at homosexuality as a "lifestyle" usually associate it with promiscuity. Doesn't a marriage and a public and legal agreement between two people to be betrothed only to each other remove that stigma? Or do you not want the stigma removed so that you can continue justify your hate?

The Bible does not oppose heterosexuality or gay marriage. It teaches us to love one another. It teaches us to do no harm. PEOPLE have taught you to hate.

"Equal Rights = Equal Rites"

...and according to God, you should only have sex when procreating - right pochrist? Not to mention not partaking in self-satisfaction and lust. I am CERTAIN that you have also maintained those virtues - right? Please don't hide behind the part of religion that is convenient to your cause.

In 2004 an Alabama ballot question removing interracial marrage was barely sucessful in removing the law.

In my opinion, everyone deserves the right to be happy or misterable in marriage :-) Let all people have all rights and let's move on...

Dr. T
just because Pochrist doesn't agree with you doesn't give you the right to "name call" (Yikes Pochrist...you should be signing your hatred as Antichrist.) remember that that is nothing more than "Bullying". Your doing to Pochrist what you hope people will stop doing to the gay community just becuase they don't agree with there lifestyle.

Pochrist,

Using your argument any heterosexual couple who, for whatever reason, cannot or do not have children should not be allowed to be married.

And lets not even get started on the sanctity of marriage as defined by people who get married for a few hours and have it 'undone' or people for whom there have to be limits on the number of times you can get married.

To you people that claim that this is a civil rights issue, you're sadly misguided. A civil rights issue would be saying that a person can't get married on the basis that they are homosexual. However, this is not the case in America.

Gay people are allowed to get married to a person of the opposite gender. Similarly, heterosexuals are not allowed to get married to somebody of the same gender. There are no laws that discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. Therefore, this is not a civil rights issue. This is an issue over the definition of the word "marriage".

If preventing same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue, then statutory rape laws and incest laws are also civil rights violations. If you believe that two people should be allowed to get married regardless of who they are, then we must also allow the pedophiles and the inbreeders to get married to whoever they want to as well. I hope that this is not your wish for this country.

I would like to offer an apology on the behalf of Pochrist. It is likely that I believe many of the same things that he does. However, Jesus never spoke in such hateful, condescending tones as we read here. As a Christian it is my privilage to attempt to live to the high moral standing that Jesus calls me to. However, I can by no means expect or require anyone who does not share my faith in Jesus to live by the same moral standards and philosophies. Jesus's greatest opponents in his day were the religious leaders. I beg therefore your forgiveness for the misguided, self-rightous comments above.
And Christ-followers, let's try to act a little more like Him.

I couldn't disagree more with Pochrist

For me, being an American means I can do anything that anyone else can do; so long as no one else is hurt and so long as I do not break any consitutional laws.

Marriage is one of those murky places. But for me I don't see how anyone else should or would care who gets married. Ya know? No one is stopping people from getting fat because it doesn't affect anyone but the fattening individual- even though obesity kills everyday.

So how would me marrying another guy affect anyone else besides that guy?

The only thing I can think of is hatred. The person who is against gays getting married seems to not want their marriage to be the same as a gay one. I don't know how that will change the heterosexual realtionship (seeing as how marriage is a civil bond between 2 people- at least legally speaking)but if anyone out there does, please enlighten me.

To me it's the same as the civil rights movement for blacks or for women... and this is coming from a black man: inequality is inequality plan and simple. And as someone who considers himself religious, I understand that the bible says certain things about certain things. But I also am a proud American and understand we are a SECULAR nation and as such we cannot use ANY religion as the basis for ANY law- that violates the consitution.

WHEN THE NO VOTER GRASS ROOTS AMERICANS DECIDE TO VISIT THE POLLS, THEN EVERYONE WILL KNOW THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMT WILL NEVER BE RUN BY THE GAY,LESBIAN, HISPANIC, LATINO, OR MEXICAN COMUNITY. OTHER WISE OUR BELOVED UNITED STATES WILL GO THE WAY OF ROME, ORGIES, GAY MALES LEGALLY KEEPING LITTLE BOYS FOR PLEASURE, PEOPLE MAKING LOVE, EACH WITH THEIR WONG END TO EACH OTHER, SUCKING UP DINGIL BERRIES, AND SPREADING AIDS. WAKE UP NATURAL BORN AND LEGAL AMERICAN CITIZENS !!! AMERICANS, FROM EVERY COUNTRY ON THE PLANET ARE HERE LEGALY AND, OUT NUMBER THE BORDER JUMPERS, GAYS,LEZIES, AND ALL OTHER RADICALS,,AMERICA MUST GET INVOLVED AND VOTE!!!

"And lets not even get started on the sanctity of marriage as defined by people who get married for a few hours and have it 'undone' or people for whom there have to be limits on the number of times you can get married."

Huh?


And the "religious right" aren't the only people in the world against same-sex marriages. I know a number of lefties that are against it as well. Most of the people I know (including people who are religious) couldn't care less about same sex civil unions. But marriage is a word with a long history based in religion, and trying to assault peoples beliefs is counter-productive in a country where the vast majority of the population is Christian.

"No one is stopping people from getting fat because it doesn't affect anyone but the fattening individual- even though obesity kills everyday."

That's not true. How many cities are passing idiotic trans-fat bans now?

@pochrist

According to your defense of marriage, infertile couples should not be married, people who chose not to have children should not be married. People of the Shaker religion should not be married. Why even atheists should not be allowed marriage. What about Buddhists? They don't believe in God either.

Perhaps, 2000 years ago, marriage was associated with procreation and church. Although I believe it was considered more of a business deal between families then.

Today, culturally in the US, marriage is, and should be, about love and commitment.

I am a married heterosexual that belongs to the United Methodist Church. However, I see NO reason gays and lesbians should not be married, enjoy civil unions, or whatever they chose. Not in the New Testament, not in US law. The argument is absurd. You remind me of the losers and hypocrites that criticized Jesus for having dinner with Zaccheaus.

In another generation, this whole debate will seem as ridiculous as the debate about inter-racial marriage was a generation ago.

David

look there been gay people around for thousands of years...why all of a sudden do we want to change the definition of marriage to suit no particular group. are we going to try an change marriage to include the person who loves he or her doggy, cat etc... And it is insulting to compare the gay movement to the civil rights movement. your are born black, white asian...i know people who have left the gay community and people who left there marriage to be with some one off the same sex...I have never seen a black man become white or a white man become black...

And by no means am I suggesting that children should marry adults or adults marry dogs or whatever.

But short of that I feel that two legal and consenting adults should be able to spend their lives together and recieve the benefits of any other co-habitating legal and consenting adults.

And call it marriage if they want to.

this is a response to KHo how posted this below...
"and according to God, you should only have sex when procreating - right pochrist? Not to mention not partaking in self-satisfaction and lust. I am CERTAIN that you have also maintained those virtues - right? Please don't hide behind the part of religion that is convenient to your cause."...

Please take a look at the book in the bible songs of solomon...it talks about sex and how you are to treat your spouse...and how it is to be enjoyed... sorry but sex is not just for procreation but also to strenghting the bond between a husband and wife

Okay, Pochrist hasn't had a good biology lesson in a while (like a whole bunch of other folks in this here country).

The man+woman=marriage mantra is fundamentally flawed becuase of the third gender that has always and will always exist . Even the Bible (Matthew 19:10-12) speaks of those born or made eunuchs.

FYI, genetically speaking, which the Bible doesn't get into, there are people who are born chromosonally out of wack -- neither exactly male(XY) or female (XX) along with a plethora of other conditions and disorders (e.g Klinefelter syndrome, clitoromegaly, micropenis, sever hypospadias, etc.) that impact the physical structures of the body making a very real, existant "third gender" who are either not able able to procreate, or have real challenges with procreation. SIMPLE.

Secondly, there are a vast number of XX and XY folks out there that via accident, disease or bad luck can not conceive. Based on your mantra, a medical test should be given to folks pre-marriage to check out the ability to conceive. Ooops buddy, you're a quadraplegic ... you're out.

Excluding people based on their genitals and/or what they chose to do with them is an assinine way to make laws.

I wonder how many gay people Pochrist knows, or if Pochrist has ever read a book by a gay author, or if Pochrist has ever contemplated just how silly his(?) presumption to know what God is or isn't opposed to. Buddy, re-read your Bible and look at the historical context. Wow, folks who read one sentence in a long book are scary. Pochrist before you try to speak about something, get urself some edumacation on the subject otherwise you sound kind of stoooopid.

Pochrist needs to get out of the confessional long enough to take a look around the world at not only the vast array of human conditions but also the unfathomable realm of animal (including humans) biology to find the the Creator made critters that can impregnate themselves, that have repeated homosexual interactions, that can change gender and so on and so forth.

I doubt Pochrist will get an edumacation...it's easier to be a tadpole and tell the frog that land sucks.

"And it is insulting to compare the gay movement to the civil rights movement. your are born black, white asian...i know people who have left the gay community and people who left there marriage to be with some one off the same sex...I have never seen a black man become white or a white man become black..."

but I was born as gay as I am black so explain to me how that insults the civil rights movement when that movement was about bringing equality to people who were not recieving it

PoChrist is correct.
Children develop best in a committed heterosexual married home.
Do not give me the stats on the uncommitted heterosexual parent. Children deserve the best and the deadbeat dad, single mother and gay or lesbian home denies them of what they need to be a complete healthy person. THe term "mom" does not apply to a man and "dad" is not a woman. Kids need both.

Marriage belongs to heterosexuals.
While homosexuals can produce their own children, they still need the opposite sex.

Polygamists, incestual affairs and people married to animals? What next?

I do not hate homosexuals nor fear them, so name call all you want...won't change my mind. It is deviant, unnatural to physiology, and unfair and selfish to expect children to grow up in it. What you do in your bedroom is indeed your business, demanding Americans accept it is not

You can have a civil union, make up contracts, wills but marriage ...no. It is not a right but a commitment between a man and a women to create a good environment for procreation. And the purpose of sex is procreation.

A state denies mother and son, two already married
and Bob and his ewe a marriage license What about their "rights"?

Saying, "Bill Richardson seemed a little bit out of sorts but survived" is an extremely kind representation of the debacle that was his appearance. I don't know why he didn't just say he had "scheduling problems" like Biden and Dodd, because he obviously had not prepared for the event at all.

pochrist,

good, solid arguement. the glbt community tries to equated themselves with heteros... WHY?

You are NOT equal when it comes to the term 'marriage', but, you should be equal in rights.

Take a look at the civil application of marriage. You will see there is no inequality. Marriage between one man and one woman is open to all--homosexual or heterosexual. The issue isn't civil inequality. It's one group of society requesting special treatment because they have a different persuasion, and they say getting this special treatment is their civil right.

... If only the tax law could be played the same way. I would say "I was born with a strong desire not to pay income tax, so it is now my civil right not to pay income tax. How can my government deny my civil rights?" Nevermind the objectivity of the tax law as applied to the rest of the population.

It is in the government's and society's interest to preserve traditional marriage and the traditional family. So it is right to offer certain benefits to encourage Americans to enter into traditional marriage relationships. It's not a civil rights issue. Our society simply needs traditional families to remain strong.

"Gay & Lesbians have no such problems - the only area they consider themselves less then equal is Marriage - which doesn't even apply to them. "

What about equality in the workplace? There is no federal protection of 'sexual orientation' for employment purposes and very few states / cities have it either.

This debate is not only about gay marraige vs. civil unions. It is about being able to put a picture of your partner on your desk without fearing you will lose your job...

I don't know about anyone else here, but I certainly didn't gain an eduation and work my tail off to walk into work one day and be fired should my right wing boss find out that I am gay.

Equality in the workplace is just as important as equality of relationship status.

That's an over-dramatization. I have a right wing boss and a lesbian co-worker with a picture of her girlfriend on her desk and no one cares. You would have a real solid case in a law suit if you were fired for that. Please stop creating horrors where there are none.

I don't understand how it is in the interest of America to preserve traditional marriage- espeically since the divorce rate is above or at 50%

And while I concede that gays can marry anyone of the opposite sex, I don't see how that makes them equal. It's more than the actual "man and woman". It's about the relationship, the love, the commitment, and that is gender/sex blind.

And gays raise children as well as heterosexuals. All that ANY child needs is LOVE and SUPPORT. Who provides it is irrelevant.

Sometimes the comparison to other civil rights struggles is apt. Has anyone else noticed how close Obama came to saying 'seperate but equal' in reference to civil unions/gay marriage? And, if it really is just 'semantics' then it would be just as easy to say marriage as to not.

It isn't just 'sematics.'

What is Marriage?

I think marriage is mostly a civil & social thing, although the institution of marriage has deep religious influences. But really what makes a marriage, in my opinion, is the commitment to each other.

A relationship & procreation can happen outside of commitment - one needs not marry for that.

Commitment = Marriage. Simple.

And that's an equation that extends to everyone.

Matt's comment touches the heart of the problem and confusion.

Marriage is currently both civil and Sacramental. The anti gay marriage camp focuses on the religious context of marriage to rally its base and confuse the argument. As long as the word "marriage" appears in legal governmental documents conferring specific privileges to "married" couples, there is a real civil rights issue. And judges will be correctly compelled to issue decisions reducing the relevance of marriage as a legal status.

Some people are incapable of understanding this duality, and see any legal change as an attack on the religious context of the word. It seems to me that the only way to resolve this is to apply separation of Church and State, and let religion own the word and its definition. Remove any reference to marriage in all governmental documents and replace it with a civil union term that applies to both straight and gay couples that chose to make this form of legal commitment to each other. Undoubtedly, some on both sides will find this unsatisfying, but often the sign of a good compromise is that neither side is totally happy.

As for Shawn who ponders whether inbreds and pedophiles and those underage are having their rights abridged by various marriage laws...his logic's a little flawed.

First, nix the pedophile from the debate...we're talking about mutual consent.

Second, inbreeding is discouraged by most gov't b/c of genetic flaws that are exacerbated. Still state laws vary upon the degree of inbreeding that is allowable. Second cuz is a-ok to marry in a bunch o' places. Also, there is no hue and cry from millions of people who wish to inbreed to change laws. Nix the inbreds from the debate.

Third, statutory rape. This is a good point to ponder. States vary on these laws as well. If a 18 year-old is having consensual sex with his 17 year old girlfriend he could be locked up in a bunch of states. Again, the likelihood of getting caught by the authorities is slim so, once again, there is no hue and cry about these laws. They are meant to protect minors from creepy pedophiles. Generally these laws aren't so bad b/c consensual teenagers that fall into the gap for a few yrs only have to wait a yr or two to no longer be "illegal."

As for DA TRUTH HUTRS, almost not worth addressing the crazy leap from human to critter; however, let's also acknowledge that ANIMALS CAN NOT GIVE CONSENT! We are talking about consenting adult human beings.

Why does so much logic fly out the window when people start thinking about gay stuff?!!!!

All of you "progressives" are phonies. As an atheist (and a former Christian), if the government told me that any 'marriage' performed by a non-religious individual was called a civil union, not a marriage, but afforded me all of the same rights as a religious marriage, why would I go throw a fit about it? After the fact, I could still call my wife a 'wife', she could still change her name if she wanted, my whole family could still go on my health care, what is the difference? The difference is that self-centered "Progressives" need to have the rest of the country fall into line with their thoughts or they start with the name calling and continue blaming all of the worlds woes on the middle class (ie. the GOP).

Edwards has serious issue with the gay rights community. Lucky for him that isn't a huge part of the Dem establishment.

Robert Borosage and Bill Press on Political Buzz Radio on the web at 5 PM Eastern today.
http://blogtalkradio.com/hostpage.aspx?show_id=44691

http://www.political-buzz.com/

Pochrist, you are being incredibly short-sighted and ignorant. Your views of marriage are way out of line. Marriage is a union of two people who love each other and vow to spend their lives honoring one another. A marriage has nothing to do with procreation. You are overlooking the millions of couples who aren't married but have children, who are married and choose to adopt, or who simply choose to not have children. Marriage is not solely a union blessed by God. Marriage is a legal term defined by the government. What about the billions of people who aren't Christian? Are you saying their marriages aren't valid? Our country was founded on a belief that people should be able to practice religion as they see fit. The turning of black and white facts in grey isn't allowing homosexuals to be married, it's the fact that our constitution was built on a separation of church and state, and we are now shunning a huge portion of Americans because our country is now being run based on conservative Christian morals. People shouldn't be looked down upon simply because of who they are. If we are taking away civil rights from our citizens, the first thing we should take away is freedom of speech from conservative morons who's sole mission is to oppress and ostracize innocent groups of people.

I agree with cms above. Saying that Richardson "survived" this appearance is extremly kind. He is completly finito as far as the gay community is concerned for sure and I can see even more Dem luminaries just writing him off.
How could he not come up with the right answer to such a basic question ? ("choice")
It s both wrong instincts for a Dem candidate and a stunning lack of preparation.

As a gay man who has been in a committed partnership for 17 years, I believe that Ethridge's characterization of being "thrown under the bus" by the Clintons strains incredulity.

The fact remains that Ethridge left her wife and children from the Clinton years, moved on to another wife, and had additional children with her.

It seems to me that Ethridge herself threw her commitment and marriage "under the bus".

I can understand why the right to use the word marriage as the legal description of a couple’s relationship is so important on a personal level - the love and mutual support of a permanent relationship is a fundamental key to enjoyment of live and survival.

But I don't understand why this seems to be used as the central test of worthiness of a presidential candidate. Could it be the same trap Republicans have fallen into with anti-abortion?

These strongly held personal beliefs are very relevant on a personal level, but how important are they on a global level where most people in the world don't have clean water to drink or enough food to eat? Where our collective actions are warming the world and devastating our ecosystem? Where our unilateral invasion of Iraq seems unsolvable without genocide on a massive scale?

What does it say about Americans when we value our principals above others poverty?

Susan, please look at my other posts to see how flawed your logic is. Here's a simple list to review when thinking about debating this subject:

1) Third gender- approx 10% of the population has a gender disorder THEREFORE the man/woman distinction in marriage laws in insufficient

2)Polygyny and polyandry-not a big outcry for either; polyandry is very rare; polgyny is based from a time when acquiring women like property was ideal and women could not survive without a man providing for them (stil the case in some parts of the world)

3)Beastiality-Animals can't consent

4)Statutory rape-Teens get old enough in a couple yrs and til they do they just have to avoid having sex in front of cops, there is no hue and cry to change this law

5)Civil rights-Like other minority groups, gays have faced abuse, ridicule, targeted homocides, misunderstanding, and, as it relates to marriage and "the pursuit of happiness" legal discrimination. Those who have championed gay rights similarly have come up against various walls of misunderstanding (e.g. during the AIDS crisis the CDC pushed for advancements, sought to get the Red Cross to test blood, etc. but b/c the disease was linked with gays, it was pushed under the rug for years.)

I guarantee this is worth the read. Btw, why does this article not mention Hillary? She was there and is also against Gay Marriage.

I have gay friends, so I am qualified to speak. Actually, I guess I only have one gay friend (who I was in a fight with a couple weeks ago (not about gayness), so maybe I have no gay friends). Anyway, I feel the need to solve this problem, nonetheless. My take on the topic is this:

Either full homosexual marriage should be government sanctioned, or government should stop calling unions between people "marriage" and start calling them "civil unions"--whether you are hetro or homo sexual. Everything under the law would remain the same for breeders and be upgraded to equal for deviants. "Marriage" is a religious term, and thus there is nothing wrong, and probably a lot right, with leaving it to the purview of churches.

"Blacks" and "the gays" have both had to fight the establishment to shake persecution in America. Both have been discriminated against; both have been and are still being wronged, but the two groups are not the same, and should not be compared as such. As I see it, the two most significant differences are as follows:

(1) Blacks are constantly dealing with white people telling them "they feel their pain" because they've shared some sort of discrimination (some Jewish people in America, for example). The problem is, whether you are gay, Jewish, Irish, Italian, etc, you share one thing with each other that you don't share with blacks: the ability to choose when and where you want to be persecuted. Imagine walking around with a big bold stamp on your forehead that read "I am Gay." Imagine doing it all day everyday, to work, on the subway, when looking for a bathroom or water fountain... Of course, you may think it is deplorable to "hide" who you are, and I would tend to agree, but the fact remains that you have that choice and many of you (non-stamped people) exercise that choice on some level on a daily basis (think Ted Haggard and John "Stewart"). And when the mainstream finds out who you really are, the fact that they can compare having interacted with you "normally" to their new perspective, brings their personal viewpoint down to earth (serving your gayjewishirishitalian interest in the end).

(2) While the evidence absolutely points towards girl-on-girl action and manlove being “part of God’s natural creation,” the fact of the matter is the science is not absolutely conclusive. In the eyes of cold hard stats, it is still possible for a reasonable person to say that gayness “may be” environmentally or socially caused. And that is the linchpin of gay marriage opposition. Until that reasonable doubt is eliminated, opponents will continue shaking their pitchforks to protect what they see as a fundamental attack on the integrity of the social system that sustains them and their children. On the flipside, it is not reasonable, by any stretch of the imagination, to say blacks are more like monkey’s than whites. In fact, a cold hard, scientific, look at anthropology (no, things like “the bell curve” are not science, they are people with an agenda who look for ways to deceive laymen) would lead one to the inescapable understanding that for almost the entirety of human existence, the vast majority of our [human] population has resided and developed in sub-Saharan Africa. That this part of Africa is still the most genetically diverse on earth (p.s. genetic diversity drives evolution), and that every single new hominid to “conquer” other parts of the globe (homo erectus, Neanderthal, homo sapien sapiens etc) started in Africa and then moved out to either destroy or, if it could, perhaps interbreed with the older species. So really, “Europeans,” “Asians” etc are the older races, “Africans” are the newer race (don’t have time for science, then just think about it: is monkey hair straight or curly? White skin does not help with anything…no it does not help with vitamin absorption, that is an unsubstantiated fable…yet black skin is of tremendous help in the daily sun and counters melanoma…). Bigotry against blacks is born of fear and sustained by ignorance. Luckily, the human race appears to be tending towards love (when translated into English, American Africans call it “soul power”). The old “races” will be conquered, it is already happening. But it won’t be with guns. This is hard for many people to understand, but this “soul” blacks talk about is a much more powerful weapon than any armament. My recommendation? Find a black person and “interbreed” so your kids aren’t the last of the Mohicans (they may get teased).

Anyway, I digress. To summarize:

White gays, blacks know being gay doesn’t mean you are not a racist. Stop inferring your struggle is “the same” as blacks was/is. It is not, it pisses blacks off, and it causes some of the less educated/forgiving of them to shun you to avoid their support being construed as acquiescing to your nonsense.

Homo-disliking black hetros, be more forgiving; sure, it is nice to be able to hide your difference from time to time, but it also eats away at people that are forced to do so. If they suppress who they are hard enough, it can indeed breed self-hatred (not to mention biting confusion about who they are). Imagine being so so different inside. Sometimes, especially for younger people, that angst can be completely debilitating, if not fatal/suicidal. Even if it is not genetic (though it probably is), it is at minimum environmentally induced. Lots of deep parts of us are environmentally induced. Your best friend, for example, or adopted mother. You are connected to them because of your environment, not your genes. Now imagine having to stand in front of a bunch of people whom you want to accept you and being forced to deny your connection with your best friend, to betray him or her, or to betray your adopted mother or father simply because people around you don’t think your relationship with them is “natural.” It is sort of the same when they are forced to deny themselves, even if it’s just environmental. Being gay is not the same as being black, but gay people genuinely suffer in America, and they need you by their side.

White breeders, gay marriage/sex is not like NAMBLA or bestiality and is not “a slippery slope” to such things. Why is sex with a little kid wrong? The answer is not: “because.” The answer is: because the little kid is not developed enough to fully comprehend the social ramifications of the act. It is the same reason we make them go to school, don’t let them legislate congressional policy, and get to decide how much TV they watch. As for animals, animals can’t comprehend the idea of joint bank accounts, prenuptial agreements, legal custody, etc. If you don’t have the mental capacity to understand the contract, the contract can’t be binding. As for human-animal sex, if the animal is fully developed, and you can, beyond a reasonable doubt, prove that the animal entered into the act willingly, then leave it alone. Don’t forget, fellatio and hetro anal sex was illegal in many parts of America a very short time ago (in fact, spankin’ the monkey is still something to be punished for in tons of households in America). As “weird” as something someone else does may seem to you, unless you have a reason that isn’t completely limited to “because my personal belief says so”, then do not attempt to forcefully shove your opinion on other people. Forcing your opinion on other people contributes to a disjointed society and an unstable world. Homogeny is not the only way, nor is it the most robust way, to promote love. Go find a black person and make milk chocolate love babies.


-World’s problem solver

If our government doesn't want Gays to be married or recognize "civil unions", then in order to create equality we should just abolish marriage tax benefits for all.

Take money out of married peoples pockets and they will understand why we want our CIVIL RIGHTS!

Pl-e-e-e-z-e Mr. MIKE(MAURICE) GRAVEL 'teach' me how to be GAY like those 'brave/fierce' SPARTANS??? Ha! MAURY GRAVELHEAD indulges in too many 'classic-comicboks' about the SPARTANS/TROJANS and too much 'movie histoire' a la 'THE 300' and the GAY-FRIENDLY' ALEXANDER!!! How stupid are these DEMBHOLES ANYWAYS??? THOUGH 'GAYNESS' WAS GENETIC AND COULDN'T BE TAUGHT???

Um, they just recently removed the marriage PENALTY from the tax law. Do some research before posting please. kkthx.

But married couples still receive BENEFITS from our government.

Create equality by abolishing MARRIAGE TAX BENEFITS!!

Matthew:

You wrote that
Edwards has serious issue with the gay rights community. Lucky for him that isn't a huge part of the Dem establishment.

If Edwards has such "serious issues[s]" with the gay community, how does he get endorsed by people like David Mixner? I don't think Edwards has any more serious issues w/r/t the LGBT community than Hillary, who has to carry her husband's record on her back.

But in the last few years, lawmakers have made tax-law changes that have helped ease the penalty. There's just one problem. The relief is temporary. All marriage tax relief provisions are set to expire Jan. 1, 2011. This sunset date was added by lawmakers to ensure that all the bill's tax changes, marriage penalty included, met federal budget limits. There are some proposals to make these temporary changes permanent, but the size of the federal deficit poses a political challenge.

"But married couples still receive BENEFITS from our government."

Um, no, don't. Thanks, please drive through.

*sigh*

A short review of marriage laws will turn up a suprising fact for opponents of equal marriage rights: the states did not start regulating marriage until a little more than a century ago.

Even now, what passes muster as a valid marriage in one state does not in another. First-cousin marriage, for example, is still legal in some jurisdictions. The argument that marriage is and has been universally accepted as having one monolithic meaning has no basis in fact.

Some things that all marriages have in common:

1) The parties must have the capacity to enter into the marriage.
Animals, children, mentally disabled, and intoxicated lack legal capacity to enter into a contract. Please don't turn my stomach anymore by screaming about sheep-human marriages. Animals/children/mentally disabled cannot legally give consent, therefore they can't enter into a legally binding contract.

2) Ability to procreate is not within the meaning of any marriage statute.
Otherwise infertility of one partner would be grounds for divorce. That is not the case in any US jurisdiction and would be against public policy of social stability.

3) Civil marriage is the same as going to city hall to get married.
No one is going to force your church to marry two people it wouldn't normally. The federal goverment never forced the LDS church to allow interracial marriages before 1978. Quite simply, they can't. Read the First Amendment.

Civil marriage is not a sacrament. It is a governmental proclamation, similar to a building permit, a zoning variance, or other common local govermental action that gives the parties certain rights and responsibilities to each other. Denying this is a human rights issue, since it denies the ability to create a family. In this age, we need all the family values we can, including values of families of all orientations.

LOL said:
"That's an over-dramatization. I have a right wing boss and a lesbian co-worker with a picture of her girlfriend on her desk and no one cares. You would have a real solid case in a law suit if you were fired for that. Please stop creating horrors where there are none."

Actually, LOL, you're dead wrong. Depending on what jurisdiction where one is, s/he may have no standing to bring a lawsuit if there is no statute that makes such discrimination illegal. That would be the case if one worked for the federal government, for example. The act that would correct this injustice, ENDA, has been procedurally restricted from coming to a vote many times since its introduction in the mid-1990's.

Am I disappointed that Edwards is not more 'developed'? Sure, but I have not completely dismissed his viability as an electible presidential candidate. I for one am not a single issue voter, or okay, i am RARELY a single issue voter.

Something I would argue is valuable to keep in mind about what John Edwards does bring to the table: Economic Justice issues for working and middle class folks -- that includes most of us in the GLBT community, some are far more privileged and economically elite, but most of us are not.

Here's why I believe Edwards should not be completely dismissed: His focus on the economy and economic justice, health care and his national economic stimulation plans to put people to work for more than minimum wage and to make sure workers no longer suffer while the richest and greediest -- the friends of Bush and Cheney -- become even wealthier at the expense of all the rest of us.

When the majority of regular working people begin experiencing and reaping economic benefits which currently are not available to most working people, zero to poor people and most are not being experienced by many other middle class working families -- i.e. the less stressed, less crunched they feel and the less economically stressed they actually are -- the more open to change, the more generous their attitudes in many areas toward social progress, social justice including GLBT issues.

Kevin Phillips and others have well-documented the devastation to working families -- it has become far worse under Bush Cheney despite the happy talk. Look what is happening in the financial markets right now. None of these people give a crap about whether middle class, working, much less poor people have houses, health care or jobs. All they care about is whether their investments make profits. That is the real republican mandate. They obfuscate that truth and hide it from the stupid evangelicals with emotional sleights of hand to keep them from understanding and knowing their own economic issues.

How/Why do we fail to understand the same thing?

While their own economic survival is at stake -- which it very much is at this point in our country -- It is harder for people to feel generous and tolerant toward others.

When people feel/believe/know/experience the very real economic devastation this administration has wrought on working people and on this economy for the past 7 years, they do not/are not feeling very 'secure' and thus less tolerant, less generous, less sure about what this means for them.

Couple that with the mean-spirited divisiveness -- the republicans have known exactly how to keep americans divided, stressed, fighting, fragmented and NOT focusing on the most foundational important issues, especially the utter lack of concern that the republican party truly has for anyone but the truly wealthy. Right now they are demagoging the color of brown people and immigration BECAUSE it takes our eyes off the economic devastation they have inflicted upon this citizenry.

I do not condone Edwards lack of progress in the marriage issue (Hillary and Obama are no better in their explanations), but I believe there are underlying foundational issues -- ECONOMIC ISSUES, THE ECONOMY, ECONOMIC JUSTICE -- to consider which have a critical impact on how people view/experience/talk/feel about not only OUR issues, but others such as: WAR, DOMESTIC SECURITY, IMMIGRATION, INTERNATIONAL POLICIES...etc

These are especially interconnected and extremely linked to how working families are doing economically (in addition to the leadership of our so-called leaders, grassroots efforts, personal relationships that folks have with their GLBT family members and friends....)

There are historical trends (yellow scare, brown scare, civil rights, womens rights, gay rights) which are deeply linked to economic (and educational and legal) progress as experienced by the masses in industrial societies.

I'm actually far more concerned about first tackling economic justice, health care, restoring pensions and benefits to retirees and workers, getting jobs to inner city citizens and youth....because if our economic foundation crumbles further (like our infrastructure is doing), you can bet there will little or no mass support for OUR issues -- which will seem irrelevant to many many people.

If the republicans and their toadies continue to destroy the working families of this country (including GLBT families), there will continue to be accelerating growing legions of our fellow citizens who are living in perpetual violence, despair, base indignities, who have children who are starving, dying, murdering, being murdered, parents who cannot get health care or elder care ... this is the road we are headed down at this moment unless there are major changes toward putting people in this country back to work at jobs that pay more than McDonald's pittances.

That is why I will still listen to what John Edwards has to say despite his lack of progress at this point -- he has the capacity to learn and grow -- just like Obama, just like Clinton -- and one of these three -- or hell if only Gore would jump in, i'd support him -- but more than likely one of these three (none of whom has the perfect position on our issues) is likely to be the candidate. Sure I'd love Kucinich, but it's not realistic.

I for one am sick of the evil of the republican demagogues and if Edwards can win key voters in key states that Hillary and Obama can not, then his economic justice and health care platform combined with his commitment to full legal rights, is a major step in the right direction. I have no doubt that just as america will come along over the next five years (like Gravel stated), Edwards will grow too.

I could be wrong, but that's my take on things at this point. I'm not willing to count Edwards out yet.

LOL said:
"http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/ObjectID/E76BEBE6-E194-46C1-983629F17557E86D/catID/DE34C24C-9CBE-42EF-917012F2F6758F92/111/259/283/ART/

http://www.opm.gov/er/address2/guide01.asp

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-orientation_parent_marital_political.html

These show precedent. Precedent is often times enough to win a law suit. She would still have a real solid discrimination case. I stand by my post."

Actually, despite your attempts to play paralegal, LOL, you're still dead wrong. Executive orders are not precedent, since they can only be enforced by an executive, in this case, the president. They are not binding on any court and will not give you standing (a key concept to understand if you want to understand how to get a court to hear your complaint).

Secondly, you did not address my criticism of your original post. The problem is that different jurisdictions have different laws regarding the legality of discrimination. One state may prohibit sexual orientation discrimination only for only public sector employees, another for any entity operating within the state, another just for employees working within the city limits, or not at all.

The folly of your argument is in assuming that all precedent is equal. That too is absolutely wrong, I'm sorry to say. If I march into federal court citing state precedent in my brief where a federal question is being raised, I will lose. Similarly, if I try to use precedent from outside the jurisdiction where I filed my lawsuit (N.B. "lawsuit" is all one word), it need not be given any more weight than a legal journal article or sociology paper, i.e. no weight, merely standing as informative on what happens in other jurisdictions.

I have to admire the conviction with which you hold to your beliefs, even when confronted with a contradiction in fact.

The failure of the major Democratic candidates to embrace and support equal marriage rights is extremely dissapointing.

I posted on this topic before the debate, and none of the half-measure answers offered by the candidates changes my analysis:

http://www.lastliberalhawk.com/2007/08/idiots-bigots-cowards-and-dennis.html

Susan: "Children develop best in a committed heterosexual married home."
My husband was widowed when his son was a year old. He didn't marry me until said son was 21. The son has a job, a home, and is a fully contributing member of society.

LOL: Married people don't receive benefits from the government.
Yes, they do. When my husband's first wife died, he received social security survivor benefits.

There are so many things to focus on.

First, I would like to tackle the marriage issue. As long as we continue to permit the debate to be called 'gay marriage', we will lose. This is about Marriage, and choosing the gender of the partner. The marriage issue and debates has been centuries long regarding the various rights, peoples and genders to make decisions regarding their future. This is a debate on Marriage, and why same-sex couples aren't included. Frame it.!

Second, the various studies about a committed relationship and a single parent family, etc. The studies all state that a 'two parent family' is the first and best focus for children, but the studies fail to mention, or prove that the Gender of the Couples changes the outcome. Studies have been done on 'two parent, same sex couples' and children. These studies either mixed with straight couples or apart from demonstrate that the children thrive, discover love, and enjoy the world from a wider perspective.

As to the rest, the art of discrimination is the ability to keep people on the defensive. When the debate moves to the offensive, and actually offends, then will things change.

As to the presidential debate, what bothered me most is the candidates speaking to our community, and telling us .. "We need to wait", or "Do what is possible", or "get the people behind you first".. etc. When in the history of civil rights have we had to push the legislature to make the RIGHT choice, or to get the people to accept the change.

Change isn't always easy. Hence the turmoil of the 20th century. But also, hence the change in attitudes and the movement towards equality for ALL.

If we simply did what was possible in this world, we would not have flown, or reached out to the stars. It is because we dream, because we seek and push ourselves hard that we make the journeys which inspire all.

Inspire yourselves and others. Be what we are all meant to be. Step up and step out. Go forward, and make the change. If we wish to be equal, we are going to have to do more than talk about it. It is time again for ACT Up and other groups to reform.

Well, let me just say simply, I don't need to revert to any technical arguments to solve this one. I don't hate gays, but I do believe that homosexuality is a sexual perversion, just like porn, adultery, playing sexually with kids or animals, etc.. Not only would I never vote to reward people who engage in it, but there's the extenuating reasons as well. I've personally seen the way these perversions relate to each other and cause the worst mess of decay and sexual perversion in people, which certainly affects other people as well.

Hey Katrina- I don't hate people who associate as being gay, but I do think there are a few loopholes in your arguments. For instance, what does the number of people have to do with something being right or wrong? Would you still feel you were being treated unfairly if you were part of a very small population of gays? I think the issue runs deeper than that.

Also, as for the "third gender"- isn't it more accurate to say that there are two genders, and some people develop anatomy incorrectly because of genetic disorders? It's an unfortunate mistake. Otherwise it's like saying that someone with down syndrome had developed correctly. I don't know if you were doing this, but to equate these people as being homosexual is wrong- I'm sure many would tell you they're not, regardless of the way they developed. And philosophically speaking, if some people were born with an axe attached to their arm, it wouldn't justify me deforesting the rainforest, or axe murderers, or whatever else. Sorry, but there's a lot of points that don't agree on that one :).

I support marriage for same-sex couples and opposite-sex couples.

LOVE IS LOVE.

jubba, quit the excuses. You do hate gay people. You compare gay people to adultery, pedophilia, and bestiality. You respect gay people as much as you do those things which I presume is pretty low.

jubba, sorry you are wrong about gay people again. Gay people are society builders. It's no coincidence that areas that have more openly gay people are also areas that are the most desirable. San Francisco is the most beautiful city in America for a reason; gay people.

Having marriage equality would be a tremendous positive for society.

Any candidate who says that anything other than marriage for same sex couples is acceptable is, in my opinion, behind the times. It is far beyond me why we are still debating this issue. It seems cut and dry to me: there is no good reason to not allow same sex marriage so why waste time arguing about it? It's a shame to me that the frontrunners in this election are so backwards.

No one ever voted for governmental recognition of marriage for straights, so why must there be a referendum on equal marriage rights?

Why can't two parties with the legal capacity to enter into the contract be allowed to do so?

How does expanding the definition of marriage to include same sex couples take anything away from opposite sex couples?

Traditional marriage, at least up to a little more than a hundred years ago meant that women essentially became the property of the husband. Anything she had owned before the marriage became her husband's. After his death, that property could be left to whomever the husband named as a devisee in his will. Marriage laws was an attempt by the state to make sure than men could not exclude their wives from their fair share of the estate.

Governmental regulation of marriage has everything to do with property rights and nothing to do with procreation. It should stay that way.

I appreciate the comments Buzzzed made above re. Edwards, and agree wholeheartedly that his positions on economic justice issues make him an especially strong & attractive Democratic candidate.

Also want to take issue with mpp's assertion that lgbt voters won't take Edwards seriously bc. he's spoken openly about his inner conflict over gay marriage. For heaven's sake, many LGBT people have struggled to reconcile their conservative religious upbringings with their sexual orientation.

I believe Edwards is the best positioned candidate to lead the country forward on LGBT issues precisely because the average American has to go through the same growth process he's talked about in order to embrace gay rights positions. He can be a bridge builder here--something we desperately need after years of the Republican party using gay rights to divide the nation.