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Edwards, Clinton Spats Stand Out

26 Sep 2007 11:08 pm

Tonight, Edwards and Clinton stood out against the mosaic.

Edwards was Edwards on Centrum Silver: straightforward, confident, clear, knowledgeable, thoroughly encased in his own frame. Ying to the yang of both Obama and Clinton; If you’re new to nomination politics, then you’d think Edwards – and not Obama – was Hillary Clinton’s main foil. The war. Social Security. Health care. Campaign ethics. Clinton didn't take the punch, but she did move to dodge them, which is a victory for JRE.

Clinton: She was arguably evasive on questions about Iran, Israel and nuclear weapons and on the options she’d consider to solve the Social Security short fall. She doesn’t want to give up her national security strategy or her presidential negotiating positions, but her opponents can exploit her refusal to be specific. These are presidential answers; they’re not campaign answers. Clinton was solid; she was not commanding, in part because she was forced on the defensive more tonight than in previous debates. She was thorough and careful, came off as intelligent and prudent, and really didn’t take a nick tonight. She did unleash the night’s best jab, and she displayed a genuine sense of humor, one that the audience seemed to appreciate and acknowledge.

Obama was Obama: collected, thoughtful, ready to make distinctions but unwilling to be ham-handed. Not so loquacious. A very serene presence tonight. At one point, Obama wielded a knife, chastising Clinton repeatedly for the secrecy which surrounded her 1993 health care effort, but the knife was blunt and its application was almost ninja-like.

Richardson was more animated than usual and seemed to have more time speaking.

Biden was talented, smart and amusing and blasted Rudy Giuliani, memorably.

Chris Dodd had no memorable moments.

The best answer of the night: one very prominent Republican said that Clinton gave it, when disagreeing with husband about a torture scenario – would she allow it if Al Q’s number three promised to reveal the location of a nuclear bomb.

Russert was sly, positing the scenario without identifying the author. Clinton took the bait. Russert revealed that the positor was William Jefferson Clinton. So “you disagree?” Russert asked. “Well he’s not standing here right now.”

Russert: “ So there is a disagreement?”

Clinton: “ Well, I’ll talk to him later.”

This Republican told me: “Best answer of the night. Smart and strong.”

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Comments (24)

"She doesn’t want to give up her national security strategy or her presidential negotiating positions, but her opponents can exploit her refusal to be specific. These are presidential answers; they’re not campaign answers."

No, they're not presidential answers either. Clinton has a very strong streak of secrecy and unwillingness to level about her specific plans and decision-making process. That's not something I would want in my President. Tell the truth to the American people.

I agree Edwards was forceful and strong tonight. Clinton was OK, I personally didn't like her performance (what is with that cackling?) but no doubt the pundits will think that she won the debate. Obama is very commanding on process issues and domestic issues, but I think he needs to work on his foreign policy talk. Despite the fact that he opposed the war in Iraq from the start while Clinton did not, he seems uncomfortable and less than impressive on foreign policy on the debate stage. That is only a perception which may not be true in reality, but nevertheless perceptions are important. The election is going to revolve around Iraq and foreign policy, and it's critical that he stay on top of that. Obama should bring up Iraq and foreign policy every damn chance he gets.

Wielded a blunt knife like a ninja? What the hell does that mean?

John Edwards clearly did the best tonight, and the other candidates followed his lead.

After that first exchange with Clinton, all of the other candidates took shots at Clinton like they haven't before in other debates. Maybe it's the fact that it's September, but John Edwards has never been afraid to stick his neck out and be first this campaign, whether it be in proposals or highlighting differences between him and HRC.

John Edwards had the best deabte performance so far. He was at his best while Obama was very subdued. John Edwards was very clear and confident while Hillary sounded too orchestrated.

Obama was under the weather tonight (apparently has a cold or the flu--according to Howard Fineman). Marc, HRC's campaign is "selectively" quoting you.

I thought Edwards stood out (he actively made distinctions). I think people's views of Obama's performance are largely driven by their expectations going in. If they thought he need to go on the attack against Clinton, then they thought he did poorly or just ok. I'd say of the GC candidates (HRC/Obama (sorry, it's a money thang at this point)), he carried the day. HRC is still top dog, but I think the MSM was a little premature in their coronation.

Agreed, this was really about Clinton and Edwards. Obama did not stand out at all, though I thought his attack on Clinton's 1993 behavior was interesting because it focused on process, Obama's strong suit. The torture question was also a crucial point of the debate, and one I thought Obama really blew.

Full detailed analysis here .

"This Republican told me: “Best answer of the night. Smart and strong."

Hillary is running a great Republican campaign. They ought to like it.

But I think we're going to find this January that while Mark Penn has finger on the pulse of Republicans, Democratic primary voters may be looking for something quite different.

Petey - But I think we're going to find this January that while Mark Penn has finger on the pulse of Republicans, Democratic primary voters may be looking for something quite different.

And if Democratic primary voters selected anyone other than Biden or Clinton as their nominee, Democrats will again lose.

Foreign policy and national security will trump domestic policy as the overriding issues in the general election. Health care, social security, and the environment are extremely important, but the general electorate will become nervous when they go to the polls. After this administration, people will be less willing to take a chance on the unknown and the mere promise of something different. It's why Hillary maintains her lead in all polls, except Iowa where she's neck and neck with Edwards.

The only other Democratic candidate with the gravitas to be president of the United States is Joe Biden. Sadly, he doesn't seem to be making much headway despite being no less articulate than Hillary.

That said, I'm ready for President Hillary Clinton.

"And if Democratic primary voters selected anyone other than Biden or Clinton as their nominee, Democrats will again lose."

Edwards has a clear advantage over Clinton in general election matchups against the GOP candidates across a wide variety of polls and polling methods.

Folks aren't used to the idea of a Democratic candidate running proudly to the left and still being an electable general election candidate.

2008 is going to be all about the Edwards election changing the boundaries of what a Democrat can stand for and still win.

Hillary did herself no harm last night. However, a somewhat weak early performance was saved with her set of great answers about Bill's torture approval. Made her look strong, in control, and not just a pawn of her husband (not like anybody really that of her that way).

http://www.political-buzz.com/

Edwards was the clear winner in the debate, and the most feared by the Republicans. His stand against NAFTA and defending American worker. There is no such thing as a free lunch!

The fat lady hasn't sung yet, the national media may be crowning the queen (Clinton) but I see a bit of Truman in Edwards. Give them hell John!

Vicenta

This Republican told me: “Best answer of the night. Smart and strong.”

Such statements really can't be trusted, if the Republican party has made anything clear over the course of the campaign is they want to face Clinton in the general election. It is the same reason Democrats would prefer to face someone like Alan Keyes. They are naturally polarizing and eternally unpopular with specific demographics. For Clinton this demographic is anyone who didn't vote for Bill Clinton + people who believe she is merely an authoritarian opportunist. For Keyes this is anyone with a functional brain stem.

People with brains are really getting pissed off over all these campaign "reporters" giving Hillary a pass. She dodge the same question two or three times in a row. Give me a break Marc, she looked horrible. She has no principles. She uses that stupid "hypothetical" clause she is always pulling out, yet if you asked her what she would do if the subprime mortgage problem gets worse she'd probably answer that or if she would win what would she do with Bill, that is a hypothetical as well. Nobody takes her to task and it makes some of us very angry. The media is a joke. Of course if all the talking heads repeat the same crap over and over they will inevitably make their garbage reality as the vulgar will receive it via osmosis. Truly sickening.

I thought Clinton's responses to the attempts by Matthews to trip her up--a noble effort, one I wish were employed more often by interviewers and moderators--was brilliant. I used to be a major Clinton skeptic, but she has won me over if for no other reason but that she can take anything anyone throws at her. She turned what would be an embarrassing and awkward moment for any other candidate into a completely different conversation: I am not my husband, and he's not running for president, I am.

Why does mere political acumen impress me? Because it will take political genius of her (and her advisers') level to defeat the coming smear machine in the general election. John Kerry and Al Gore are both great statesmen, but they couldn't beat the oppressive right-wing attack machine. Clinton has a shot, not least because she's been down that road before.

Russert was sly, positing the scenario without identifying the author. Clinton took the bait. Russert revealed that the positor was William Jefferson Clinton.

Go read the September 24, 2006 transcript of MTP. Timmy completely misrepresented Clinton's argument.

From Meet the Press, 9/24/06:
MR. RUSSERT: What did you think when Colin Powell said, “The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism”?

MR. CLINTON:...If we get a reputation for torturing people, the following bad things are going to happen: We’re as likely going to get bad information is good, just for people to just quit getting beat on; two, we’re likely to create two or three or five enemies for every one we break; and three, we make our own soldiers much more vulnerable to conduct which violates the Geneva Convention. That is, we can’t expect our friends, much less our enemies, to accept the fact that because we’re the good guys, we get to have a different standard of conduct. And most people think the definition of a good guy is someone who voluntarily observes a different standard of conduct, not someone who claims the right to do things others can’t do.

MR. RUSSERT: Would you outlaw waterboarding and sleep deprivation, loud music, all those kinds of tactics?

MR. CLINTON: Well, I—here’s what I would do. I would figure out what the, what the generally accepted definitions of the Geneva Convention are, and I would honor them. I would also talk to people who do this kind of work about what is generally most effective, and they will—they’re almost always not advocate of torture, and I wouldn’t do anything that would put our own people at risk.

Now, the thing that drives—that, that gives the president’s position a little edge is that every one of us can imagine the following scenario: We get lucky, we get the number three guy in al-Qaeda, and we know there’s a big bomb going off in America in three days and we know this guy knows where it is. Don’t we have the right and the responsibility to beat it out of him? But keep in mind, in 99 percent of the interrogations, you don’t know those things.

Now, it happens like even in the military regulations, in a case like that, they do have the power to use extreme force because there is an imminent threat to the United States, and then to live with the consequences. The president—they could set up a law where the president could make a finding or could guarantee a pardon or could guarantee the submission of that sort of thing ex post facto to the intelligence court, just like we do now with wire taps.

So I, I DON'T THINK THAT HARD CASE JUSTIFIES THE SWEEPING AUTHORITY FOR WATERBOARDING AND ALL THE OTHER STUFF that was sought in this legislation. And I think, you know, if that circumstance comes up—we all know what we’d do to keep our country from going through another 9/11 if we could. But to—but to claim in advance the right to do this whenever someone takes a notion to engage in conduct that plainly violates the Geneva Convention, that, I think, is a mistake."

Looks like Timmy isn't even as smart as Lassie.

The electorate is shifting to the left and the conservatives are spent. Katrina and this war were their Mc Govern moment. Clinton is foolish to package herself as Bush Light she will only alienate her base. She has an exposed flank.

"People with brains are really getting pissed off over all these campaign "reporters" giving Hillary a pass. She dodge the same question two or three times in a row. Give me a break Marc, she looked horrible. She has no principles. She uses that stupid "hypothetical" clause she is always pulling out, yet if you asked her what she would do if the subprime mortgage problem gets worse she'd probably answer that or if she would win what would she do with Bill, that is a hypothetical as well. Nobody takes her to task and it makes some of us very angry. The media is a joke. Of course if all the talking heads repeat the same crap over and over they will inevitably make their garbage reality as the vulgar will receive it via osmosis. Truly sickening."

I am also utterly offended at the approach the news media have taken to this election (as they have in just about every election since CNN went big), which is to have "experts" do a running commentary on how the candidates look to the electorate and what chances each of them has to win the nomination or the GE. We freaking KNOW how they look! We're watching too! But unlike you, Marc, we're looking for substance, not style. Notice I did not say "the appearance of substance" but rather substance.

Where the hell, in all of this wasted editorial space, is some commentary by ANYONE about what policies, domestic and foreign, would be good for our country? Where the hell is anything being written (other than by the candidates themselves) about the specific personality traits and leadership qualities that are sorely needed in our executive branch and which of the candidates is most likely to bring the right personality, intellect, judgment and leadership to the Presidency?

What value are these debates to the electorate if all are is a high-stakes US Weekly edition, in which pathetic journalists alternately attempt to trip up or glam up the candidates and then klatsch about who looked how afterwards like 17-year-old girls? This is serious damned business and I wish like hell our news media would start to take it seriously and stop wasting everyone's time speculating about whose strategy might fool the American public enough to win. Substance please!

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