If Politics Is The Manipulation Of Symbols..

Badly. A non-issue, arguably, and unfair, maybe - but I think it plays badly.

Pretty badly.

Posted by Will | October 4, 2007 7:44 PM

I don't know how it plays. But speaking only for myself I like it. I always look at the flag wavers and think "trying too hard". He's not a panderer, that's clear. He has taste, unlike practically everyone else. Including the voters, so, yeah, it will probably hurt him, if anything.

Posted by Phoebe | October 4, 2007 8:07 PM

I don't think this is necessarily a big deal. To a Democratic primary electorate tired of having the Democrats' patriotism questioned post-9/11, the big deal being made by some in the media may evoke more anger at the petty media than condemnation of the candidate. I doubt this will get much traction beyond the "Obama is a secret Muslim" crowd.

Posted by RKA | October 4, 2007 8:14 PM

It plays for one night, and then closes due to complete lack of interest.

Iowa caucus voters aren't going to care about a flipping pin.

Posted by Geek, Esq. | October 4, 2007 9:50 PM

A guy who's for abortion on-demand has the gall to talk about "VALUES?"

http://www.newyorkforhuckabee.blogspot.com

Posted by Peter | October 4, 2007 10:11 PM

While on the surface it may look trivial, this episode is revealing of many on the Left's ambivalence about our country's greatness and lack of pride in identifying oneself unapolgetically as an "American". While wearing a pin may be a small gesture, it should come reflexively for a presidential candidate, as a candidate seeks to represent all Americans. What is telling is that Mr. Obama removed the pin after wearing it- was he removing it because he was ashamed of his country in some respect?

Mr. Obama has it wrong- the pin is not a substitute for patriotism- it's a symbol of it. Removing it from your lapel indicates you are ashamed of your country in some manner or another. His rationale for removing the pin makes absolutely no sense- as a wanna-be commander in chief, he should indeed be thinking about our country's National Security, and his decisions will affect the lives of all Americans.

Posted by Vince | October 4, 2007 10:39 PM

Vince, did you reread your comment before posting it? It makes no sense whatsoever. Removing a pin does not mean you are ashamed of the country; it means that in your mind, the symbol has been diluted because too many pin wearers were demonstrating a shallow form of patriotism. Pinwearing became an easy shortcut for phoneys.

Obama's answer to this question just shows he's keeping it real. A lot of folks flew flags from their porches in the weeks and months after 9-11 and then took them down near the time of Bush's desecration of it with "Mission Accomplished" and his policy of refusing to allow the release of pictures of flag-draped coffins coming back from Iraq. These people are not unpatriotic; they are true patriots. If you asked them why they stopped flying the flag from their porch every day, they'd probably give an answer similar to Obamas.

Posted by RaymondA | October 4, 2007 11:20 PM

Yes, Raymond, I read it before I posted it, and I stand by my comment. There wasn't any public figure that I was aware or whom Mr. Obama can cite to that "diluted" the symbol of the flag with jingoistic rhetoric, and simply because more people displayed flags either on their lapels or on their abodes after 9-11, that fact did not "dilute" the symbolism of the flag either.

Everyone has the right to display the flag or not, it's their perogative. I happen to believe however that elected officials, especially presidential candidates, should wear it, since by virtue of their office they are representing all Americans, but again, it's their perogative. As I said, what's most telling is the fact that he removed it, and in my opinion he removed it for a frivolous reason.

What many on the Left don't get is that the Flag stands for much than one's political persuasion or views about individual issues- much more importantly, it represents not only the core values of our country, but also the collective sacrifice of those over its history who made it the great and noble country it is. For that reason, when someone such as Mr. Obama removes the flag, he shows that he is ignorant not only of the true symbolism of the flag, but he is also in some regards ashamed of this country.

You may think Obama's removal of his lapel flag amounts to him "keepin it real", but that's today's jingoistic nonsense that you and he agree upon, and it's hardly a principled stand.

Posted by Vince | October 4, 2007 11:56 PM

“To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous, instead of a compulsory routine, is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds.”–Justice Robert H. Jackson. Jackson was speaking of state-imposed flag salute requirements, but it applies as well to mindless rote exercises like affixing a flag pin to your lapel every morning because that’s what politicians are supposed to do to “prove” they are patriotic. I wholeheartedly agree with Obama that you prove your patriotism not through conforming to what is the equivalent of a compulsory routine but through your words and actions.

Posted by RaymondA | October 5, 2007 12:26 AM

Umm, Raymond, no one that I am aware of who ever pinned an American Flag lapel pin to their jacket, or who flew a flag on their house, was COMPELLED to. Your straw man argument is only getting more ridiculous.

Perhaps when Obama's the President, he'll remove the flags from all the backdrops that he'll give speeches from, since to his mind, those may be nothing more than "compulsory mindless exercises", and real patriotism is defind as whatever proceeds forth from the mouth of Mr. Obama. Or perhaps it's just the American flags on his lapel that cause him such great angst and ambivalence? Mr. Obama was stupid to complicate what should be such a simple gesture of pride and love of the country that he wants to represent. And to think that I thought he was only embarrassed about the size of his ears!

Posted by Vince | October 5, 2007 12:43 AM

Vince, I'm firmly on the Left and I love my country just as much as the next guy, and I think the wearing, or not wearing, of a flag lapel is complete, utter trivia. I think the majority of the American people would agree with me on this point.

Posted by fnook | October 5, 2007 12:44 AM

Fnook, I would never argue that love of country is defined by simply wearing a flag lapel, I agree. However, the issue here is that he stopped wearing it, and the reason he cited for doing so is frivolous and superficial, and it is indicative of his ignorance of the meaning of the flag, not necessarily his love of country.

Posted by Vince | October 5, 2007 12:48 AM

"Mr. Obama was stupid to complicate what should be such a simple gesture of pride and love of the country that he wants to represent."

Honestly, Vince, what's the implication here? That Obama does not, in fact, love his country because he decided not to wear a little flag trinket on his lapel? That's a fairly scurrilous charge, don't you think? A charge that might be better made based on real evidence rather than emotional drivel. Why don't you try looking yourself in the mirror tomorrow morning and asking who it is that's "complicating" this "simple gesture."

Posted by fnook | October 5, 2007 12:50 AM

It's not a scurrilous charge at all, im simply trying to interpret what Mr. Obama's action and his rationale for removing the flag from his lapel means; and what it says about his thoughts and feelings about the country he wants to represent. To my mind, the implication is that Mr. Obama doesn't know the true meaning of the flag, and he has inadventently given us a glimpse of what his feelings are about the subject.

Words, and actions, mean things to people. To analogize, if you tattooed your girlfriend's name on to your arm or you had received a article of jewelry from her, and you subsequently broke up with her, what would you want to do with that tatoo or jewelry? Would the removal of the tatoo or article of jewelry symbolize something? Or was the removal of that token merely a gesture that was meaningless?

This may sound like a reach, but the removal of a symbolic image is telling on some level about a person's feelings, and especially for public figues such as Obama.

And what it tells me that is that deep down, he doesn't know what the flag represents- it doesn't tell me that he doesn't love his country- try to understand the difference.

Posted by Vince | October 5, 2007 1:07 AM

Old Vince: "While on the surface it may look trivial, this episode is revealing of many on the Left's ambivalence about our country's greatness .... What is telling is that Mr. Obama removed the pin after wearing it- was he removing it because he was ashamed of his country in some respect?"

New Vince: "This may sound like a reach, but the removal of a symbolic image is telling on some level about a person's feelings, and especially for public figues such as Obama. And what it tells me that is that deep down, he doesn't know what the flag represents- it doesn't tell me that he doesn't love his country- try to understand the difference."

Maybe it would be easier to understand that difference, Vince, if originally you hadn't tried to erase it yourself. In fact, in your last post you started with: "It's not a scurrilous charge at all, im simply trying to interpret what Mr. Obama's action and his rationale for removing the flag from his lapel means; and what it says about his thoughts and feelings about the country he wants to represent." Again, here you seem to be asserting that Obama's actions in this respect are indicative about what Obama thinks about the country, not just the symbol, even though you later claim otherwise.

The bottomline is that this is a nonstory, and those like Vince who are forced into incoherence in their attempts to make it into a story are demonstrating Obama's point: it is easy to wear a flag, but much harder to actually speak meaningfully about patriotism.

Posted by DTM | October 5, 2007 8:27 AM

DTM-

As I said, the example I used was not a perfect analogy. You guys basically are asserting that his removal of the flag is meaningless, trivial, irrelevant. I contend that it means something, and it is indicative of something, and that "something" is what I am trying to ascertain, in good faith.

Finally, DTM, At least I am trying to speak meaningfully about patriotism, and that the symbollism surrounding patriotism is important- something neither you or Mr. Obama seem to understand.

Posted by Vince | October 5, 2007 8:59 AM

I don't think he tried to "make a statement" by removing the pin because he did so quietly with little fanfare years ago and only put attention to it by answering a random question. This was no premeditated diss on the flag.

Yes, he meant something by it, but I think it is a stretch to say he meant disrespect to the flag or what it stands for. I think he is saying that he did not want to engage in the same symbolic behavior as those who he felt were exploiting 9/11 for political purposes and using their superficial patriotism to support policies that were ironically harmful to America and to imply that those who disagreed were not patriotic.

Posted by RKA | October 5, 2007 9:43 AM

Interesting how no one bothers to mention that none of the other democratic candidates wear the pin either. Not edwards, not Clinton

Posted by Dale | October 5, 2007 10:03 AM

Vince,

I agree that how one actually speaks about one's country is important, and apparently so does Obama. To that extent, it is not true that I reject the importance of such matters completely.

What I disagree with is your original sugegstion that whether or not one engages in this particular symbolic act (the wearing of an American flag lapel pin) is an important indicator of how one feels about one's country. Indeed, I think it is a bad idea to have such symbolic litmus tests in general, largely for Justice Jackson's reasons: whether such an act is legally compulsory or just enforced by social norms, in either case an act of symbolism done to satisfy such an external requirement is not going to be reliably indicative of the genuine thoughts and feelings of the participant. So, I personally agree that once wearing the flag pin became something politicians were expected to do, it lost any true symbolic import (other than that the wearer was willing to conform to that expectation).

As for your more recent claim that you are just trying to figure out in good faith why Obama made this decision: according to Obama (and this sounds perfectly plausible to me) he decided not to wear the pin because he believes that what people actually say matters a lot more than what pins they wear, and he thought that point was being lost at the time. Whether or not you think Obama is right about that point being lost at the time, do you actually disagree with his sentiment that words matter more than pins? Again, I agree that symbolism is important, but would you seriously elevate lapel pins over actual words?

So if you want to address the things that Obama actually says about our country, please feel free to do so. But I will continue to reject your attempt to turn participating in this particular symbolic act into some sort of patriotic litmus test, and indeed I think it is unwise to have any such tests, because conforming with such a test is an unreliable indicator of anything but the participant's willingness to conform to such tests.

Posted by DTM | October 5, 2007 10:28 AM

Does Obama have a yellow magnet ribbon on his car? Because if not, I really have to question whether he supports the troops or not.

Posted by goethean | October 5, 2007 10:40 AM

DTM-

Let me conclude with this- as ive stated, it's a personal preference whether or not you want to wear a flag on your lapel, and it is most certainly not the sole determinant of patriotism. I think most people agree on that.

Where Obama stepped in it is that he suggested that others who do wear the Flag lapel pin were doing so for phony reasons, and that in Obama's eyes constituted jingoism- in effect making his own judgement about other people's patriotism.

It's one thing to say you don't want to wear a flag lapel pin, but it's another thing to imply that people who are wearing a lapel pin are falsely patriotic.

Finally, true patriotism is not simply, in Obama's words, "speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security". That dilution of the definition of patriotism implies that if someone from Code Pink speaks out about our national security and calls for the unilateral disarmament of our country, that "patriotic" act constitutes the same amount of patriotism as a General in the field of battle. Ridiculous.

Posted by Vince | October 5, 2007 10:56 AM

I've no problem with him not wearing the pin, nor with his reasons for taking it off. I think the basic point is well-taken. My only concern is that I think his statement can be read as knocking the patriotism of flag-wearers in general, and, while there are plenty of scoundrels hiding behind their pins, there are also plenty of decent people who do wear them to express a genuine patriotism.

Posted by WES | October 5, 2007 11:33 AM

Vince,

You are shifting arguments yet again, from your original concerns about what his actions said about Obama's feelings about his country, to your secondary claim that Obama was disregarding the importance of patriotic symbolism in general, to this latest concern about what Obama's explanation for his decision may imply about the patriotism of people who do wear the pin. I have no desire to keep playing the shift-the-goal-posts game, so I will just note that Obama did not in fact suggest that every person wearing a pin was "falsely patriotic", and he was not otherwise "making his own judgement about other people's patriotism" on the basis of whether or not they wore the pin.

In fact, I think you are projecting here: you are the one who originally wanted us to see the flag pin as a litmus test for patriotism, and your latest defense is to claim that Obama shared your view on the importance of the flag pin, but in a mirror-image fashion. Of course, this latest argument completely contradicts the position that you took in the middle of this discussion (that Obama's problem was not understanding the importance of symbols at all). But as was apparent by the time I first posted here, maintaining a coherent critique clearly is not among your goals.

Posted by DTM | October 5, 2007 12:25 PM

Plays well. A pin is no substitute for patriotism. Tom Paine didn't need a flag on his lapel, why should Obama, or anyone for that matter. Too many pols pin the flag to their chest then screw the country for the sake of special interests. If you want to wear it and believe in it great, but if you don't, don't--that's why this is a great country, because no one impugns your patriotism just because you don't wear a pin. At least Obama was honest about it.

Posted by JC | October 5, 2007 1:54 PM

I applaud Obama's removal of his flag pin. At least he's being honest in no longer acknowledging to care about the country. :)

http://www.newyorkforhuckabee.blogspot.com

Posted by Peter | October 5, 2007 2:25 PM

Vince, while complaining that Obama might be implying that others who wear a flag pin are phonies, you said this:
"What many on the Left don't get is that the Flag stands for much than one's political persuasion or views about individual issues- much more importantly, it represents not only the core values of our country, but also the collective sacrifice of those over its history who made it the great and noble country it is."

As far as I'm concerned, THE CONSTITUTION represents America's core values, and is what has makes America great and noble.

We are a military family. When you join the military, you swear to uphold the U.S. CONSTITUTION, not the American flag.

Every nation has a flag. What makes America unique is the document under which she were born as a nation.

And, not necessarily Vince, but for anyone who DOES think this is a bad thing on Obama's part -- I personally think that is fascist thinking.

The LAST thing any American should want is for any other American to feel a moment of discomfort for not following the crowd on what constitutes a "symbol of patriotism."

That's FASCIST thinking, not democratic.

Posted by Jan | October 5, 2007 3:06 PM

Jan-

I would be about the last person who would ever advocate for anything resembling fascism my part. It should go without saying that the Flag is the symbol, not the object of our devotion, which is as you correctly state, the principles embedded in the Constitution, as well as fidelity to them.

The flag is representative (or symbolic) of our core values, it is not the core values themselves, and you are misconstruing my original point.

Vince

Posted by Vin | October 5, 2007 4:06 PM

Jay Leno for President. He wears a flag pin.

Posted by Wesley Lake | October 5, 2007 6:19 PM

Thanks, DTM. You explained why the Jackson quote is relevant better than I did. If flag-wearing becomes compulsory through a social norm, it stops signifying anything except conformity, just as when it becomes legally compulsory. If there is a theme to Obama's campaign this year is that, while he takes some positions that are very mainstream and predictable and others that aren't, he arrives at his conclusions by thinking for himself and not following the pack: hence his early opposition to Iraq and his later position on meeting with foreign leaders.

Posted by RaymondA | October 6, 2007 9:50 AM

This may put this debate in perspective. See this work of art titled "Portrait of Senator, With Flag Pin."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/larrycraigmug1.html

Posted by fred723 | October 6, 2007 10:16 AM

If Politics Is The Manipulation Of Symbols..

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