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Call It A Comeback?

15 Nov 2007 10:08 pm

Tonight’s debate will probably stop the talk of a huge momentum swing away from Hillary Clinton. Though a little overly conducted at times, Clinton did not sound any obvious false notes, nor did she strike confusing or conflicting notes, and, as a bonus, she got an entire minute and a half to make her rah-rah appeal to women. Clinton had the most at stake tonight, and she arguably gave her most commanding performance to date.

As for lines to use against the Dems, Danny Diaz and the crew at the RNC have little to pick and choose from, and the PH level of the debate was noticeably basic after an opening exchange that Clinton smoothly handled (while Obama, seemingly surprised that Clinton turned the tables on him, looked a little rattled). Clinton’s opponents seemed to calculating their pressure, unsure of how she’d respond, and not wanting to sound grating or mean. Toward the end, when Obama compared Clinton’s answer on a Social Security question to Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney, Clinton responded by pointing out how the general thrust of her position was exactly like Obama…dismissing his taunts with a substantive response.

Richardson had his best performance of all the previous debates. On mental health, on veterans’ health, on energy, on trade policy – he was clear, concise, natural-sounding, in command of his answers, and persuasive. Viewers leaned that he was a governor who solved problems, who wasn’t in Congress, who has clear differences with the rest of the field on a variety of issues, and who sounded reasonable. Where has this Bill Richardson been?

On driver’s licenses for immigrants, Hillary Clinton was given a pass for her sudden discovery of a position. Asked a yes or no question by Wolf Blitzer, Obama did answer the question with a “yes, but” -- but Blitzer didn’t believe that…in part because Obama then said, “I am not proposing that’s what we do…” and then, theatrically said: giving the viewer the impression that Obama was being fuzzy. It was a fun moment for the Clinton boiler room, but it wasn’t deathly; if the exchange had confirmed something about Obama’s inexperience, then it would have hurt him. But because it arguably reflected a weakness of Clinton’s, it helps Clinton more than it hurts Obama.

Obama elsewhere was strong, giving eloquent and learned answers on China and trade, questioning Wolf Blitzer on premises at times, returning to his campaign themes of possibility, optimism and hope. At moments, Obama was overshadowed by Edwards, who had an audience-pleasing exchange with the mother of an Iraq war veteran whose son feared being deployed to Iran – an interjection forced Obama to concede that he had not been in Washington for the vote. Edwards was Edwards; his campaign believes there was a seismic shift in the race tonight, with Edwards, Obama and Clinton all on equal footing. Eh…

The Democrats spent a lot of time debating debates: what’s appropriate, what’s not, what questions are fair, who’s ganging up on who, who gets more time, whether the party is hurt by back-and-forths.

Chris Dodd seemed to be completely in the background tonight. Not his fault -- he got almost no question.

Comments (51)

Everyone did well.

John Edwards was very effective with his answers and looked most presidential.

Hillary recovered.

Obama was good except for that immigration question.

Richardson gave good answers but he just does not look impressive.

How dis they do? I will rate Edwards, Obama, Clinton in that order among top three.

Obama and Edwards sounded very authentic.

Biden was shrill.

Hillary couldn't even pick between pearls and diamonds!!!

Obama killed her on the SS question.

Otherwise nothing special. Hillary was much better than last time.

Check out the DailyKos poll...Edwards is the darling of the site but they seem to think Obama won!

the Clinton News network has on former clinton advisors, ect. to do the post debate spin.
Why don't the networks ever put on some people who are not affliated with the clintons?
You don't get any real discussion. Just spinning it for Hillary.
I thought she got taken off guard a few times and sounded hokey in some spots.
Edwards gave some great answers and Obama was strong.

It will be great to have a debate between Hillary, Edwards and Obama only. That's the only way to determine the real winner.

As for as today's debate, all three were winners and shined for different reasons.

The thing people will remember about this debate is Hillary claiming that the middle-class is people making more than $96,000 a year.

What planet does she live in? Mid-town Manhattan.

Oh, wait...

Obama was strong on free trade answer.

But John Edwards used some very potent words like lobbyist and real change which work great with many people.

The most telling part was how candidates answered questions from the voters. One of the best answers was Edwards' to the mother and son duo about Iraq. His answer was very clear and had a personal touch to it. He cleverly wooved in Hillary vote on Iran and continuing of war in Iraq. Overall a perfect answer compared to Hillary's answer.

Obama had very powerful answers. I wish he can get more articulate and personal in presenting them to the audience.

How come there's no mention of the booing? I don't remember this at any previous debate. Why was it only people criticizing Hillary that got booed? How likely is it that Democrats would spontaneously boo someone for criticizing taking money from lobbyists?

And even if Hillary's campaign had nothing to do with this one-sided heckling, doesn't it speak volumes that she did nothing to stop it?

Hillary was brillant, once again she commanded the debate and crushed the others, it would be smart for Obama or Edwards to quit now, for only one has a chance to challenge her, as long as both are in the race they split the vote and will allow her to run the table from Iowa to Feb 5.

Fred, like Senator Thompson, you're an idiot.

Clinton is cynical and phony.

She will lose Iowa and lose more after that.

The clear loser of the debate was CNN....god, what awful moderation, and the audience was a total distraction. It made everyone look bad....the moderaters, the candidates, etc. The bottom line is that I don't think this changes the race all that much. But I think that Obama should follow-up on the debate to press HIllary about her notion that the top 6% are the middle class (while still voicing support for the donut to make it more like 200K or so) and he should mock her obsession with mandates that can't be enforced. What is she going to do? Throw people in jail who can't afford health care so they can get free prison health care? Obama has the opportunity to win the post-debate if he focuses on these 2 issues.

I don't understand how Wolf Blitzer could call Sen. Obama out for waffling after the man gave a story on how he supported a similar measure: he said yes multiple times!

CNN was just outrageous: from the Edward boos and planting him at the side to the hatchet Blitzer tried to stick in Obama's back all night. It's amazing the man didn't walk out w/more than a cut. And then two former Clinton team members giving spin?

Yeah. Wow. At least Russert, when he went after Clinton, went after her on substance. Wolf Blitzer just sounded plain dumb.

Fun task for Ambinder: one of the audience questions contained a lie, and CNN didn't challenge it. Can Ambinder tell us what the lie was, and ask CNN to issue some form of correction?

You do the math. 2 Former Clintonites; James Carville and David Gergan. A female reporter barely able to hide her glee every time she was able to squeeze in another "Hillary Clinton clearly demonstrated..."


That's the "team" you have pretending to analyze the debate? What an absolute joke. Now I know why I haven't watched CNN in years.

They are the single most scared network in history. Must preserve status quo, must preserve status quo...


Ted Turner must be rolling over in his grade. Oh wait, he's not dead, it's just his once-proud "news" network that has wilted away.


Go back and look at the tone of the questions Edward's was asked. John Anderson's fake tan couldn't even conceal his rage when he played "Devil's Advocate" by asking Edwards about "flip-flopping"--a term Edwards has NEVER used when talking about Hillary.


As usual though, the next president of the United States--in spite of CNN's best efforts--showed us why he's the clearest communicator to come around these parts in a long time.
http://www.youtube.com/...

I love how Anderson Cooper tries to wimpily squeeze in a "...our audience should know that Mr. Carville and Mr. Gergan served as advisors to President Clinton."


By the time he finished saying "Clinton" his head was clearly pointed at the floor. He was ashamed of himself--as he should have been.


Oh yea. That was at 10:38--a good 20 minutes into their "expert" analysis. What a pathetic joke CNN has become!

CNN was horrible.

Not pressing the front runner at all on anything.

Then, having two advisers from her husband's administration on the post debate analysis? Are they serious? What, they couldn't get Bill or Howard Wolfsen?

Um, what exactly was Clinton's "substantive" response to Obama's "taunt" about only 6% of wageearners being above the payroll tax cutoff?

I could have sworn it had something to do with firefighters, but that can't be right, because such an answer makes no sense. And apparently according to Ambinder, Clinton nailed it.

What debate? CNN made it as easy as possible for HRC to avoid trouble and to provide her with opportunities to rattle off her well-rehearsed answers. What was the purpose of the last question? I have a son serving in Iraq and I have to sit and watch that woman be asked a question about pearls and diamonds? If the Democrats nominate HRC over Obama, they deserve her and the havoc that will ensue. But our country - especially our soldiers - deserve better. They deserve Obama.

Clearly Edwards and Obama won the debate on the substance, sincereity and charisma. Clinton went back to her old mask and did just ok. Richardson and Biden talked a lot but they were just "also ran".

Incidentally, by any objective standard the "winner" of every single one of these debates has been Biden, and Kucinich has been excellent as well.

By the way, apparently most firefighters are not making over $97500, not even in New York:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Fire_Fighter/Salary

Did anyone in the audience boo Hillary last debate? Did MSNBC have two Edwards or Obama "employees" providing post-debate analysis? Did MSNBC try to sneakily "disclose" their bias 38 minutes into their post-debate coverage?

Look, it's fine to support Hillary. What's not fine is to defend any journalist/network that orchastrates debate or only provides one (out of seven) side of the story. Does CNN think we're that stupid?

Hillary supporters would win a lot of much-needed credibility if they would concede these obvious biases. I ain't holding my breath.

Has David Gergen EVER said anything remotely interesting? insightful? not completely obvious?

Leaving aside the complete shill problem, I just don't know why he is constantly asked to comment.

Hillary Clinton was excellent during this debate. She finally turned the tables on the two candidates who keep biting her ankles for the very things they do themselves. Sorry boys, you lost tonight. Just as you deserved to. Did you really think Hillary wouldn't fight back?

Hillary is fracturing the democratic party. And you think she'll win a general? Half the country already says they won't support her. Explain to me how she will win, numbers wise. Her policies and positions don't matter. It is about her personality and the clinton legacy.

No one cares about where she stands. They only care that it is hillary.

The democrats are walking off a cliff led by clinton supporters.

Did anyone else notice the way Senator Clinton avoided lying when she suggested that Obama was raising taxes on retirees? That is, Clintonian double-talk?

Obama said increase the cap, Clinton said she was against raising taxes on the middle class and retirees, implying without explicitly saying a lie, that raising the income cap on the FICA payroll tax IS A TAX INCREASE ON RETIREES.

I believe she gave the same double-talk formula in the MCNBC debate. It seems that Senator Obama prepared to respond to it by working out what to say, and she prepared to parry that by having organized partisans in the crowd to boo him and keep him from getting a video clip he could re-use.

My favorite point was the answer in which Clinton said that raising the social security income cap would pose a hardship ...on people who make more than $100,000, then went on to say that she would take the same approach to the problem ...as Ronald Reagan.

Gergen has worked for many administrations.

Marc, if a comeback means getting back to form of saying nothing at all, then yes, HRC definitely had a comeback.

That tripe aside, how many minutes did HRC spend talking about insipid woman related questions rather than substance issues? Was any time devoted to Obama or Richardson and the race card or race issues? So what exactly did an *educated* electorate learn tonight that they did not know before about gender or race except that HRC feels comfortable in the kitchen?

That second bit of tripe aside, why in the world is there a live audience if they are allowed to interject themselves into the debate? I could care less what those folks think...I want to hear from the candidates, not them. I remember a time when audiences were warned not to applaud, speak, make their presence known in any way until the debate was over....what happened?

This is a serious election about serious stuff...what the hell are we doing here?

It is becoming apparent to me that it will NOT be Hillary vs. Rudy in the end, but rather Hillary vs. Mitt Romney. Rudy she could beat, but Mitt --- I don't think so.

From a competence stanpoint, Romney has the distinct advantage of having run multiple things successfully over the years of his career outside Washington DC. Just as importantly, he is one to take an analytical approach to the campaigns, and I don't think he'd waste his time or resources; he will play it smart in other words.

The 50% who say they will "never vote for Hillary" are lost to the Democrats if she is on the ticket. Romney, and his father before him as well, has shown he can win in a "Democratic stronghold" state.

The closer we are to general election day, the "odder" it will strike people to imagine Bill back in the White House, where he got banished to the couch, where he behaved badly, where he surrounded himself with cronies and yes-people, where he ended up not looking/acting very "presidential" or being very trust-inspiring at all to so many of us. I'd be much more attracted to Hillary as a candidate if she had told Bill to "take a hike already".

But I digress.

My point is that Romney has to do little to dispense with Guiliani; he has aready done it to himself and it's just waiting there to bite him in the butt.

I think the country is ready for a change, and Hillary is not ENOUGH of a change.

So, in another close and possibly disputed election result, Romney goes to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Clinton goes home but not to the big white home she once ruled, and the Democratic party looks back and says, "how did we let this happen AGAIN?"

That debate sure smelled like a sham. The audience seemed like Clinton plants, as did the moderator. And given the reports earlier this week about how Clinton staffers were "warning" Blitzer not to pull a Russert...

Perhaps an event with no winners and the only true loser being CNN's credibility. Well, and maybe Clinton, too, because it reinforces the negative notion that she's overly controlling and manipulative.

re: "Hillary is fracturing the democratic party."

No.
AS USUAL, the DEMOCRATIC Party is fracturing itself.

The DEMOCRATIC Party has a DEMOCRATIC front-runner that some stupid DEMOCRATS are determined to take down. If THAT isn't stupid, I really don't know what is.

I give Hillary Clinton kudos that the Rightwing Slime Machine hates her.
I give the Democratic Party a big friggin' F for being big friggin' FOOLS for hating the friggin' front-runner in their own stupid party.

Clinton repeatedly slugged Edwards and Obama so hard and so effectively within the first 10 minutes of the debate, they seemed stunned and stupified for the remainder of the night.

I give 2 TKO's to the little lady and hope that Elizabeth and Michelle had some ice-packs waiting at home for the boys!

Notice Wolf Blitzer asked the candidates if they'd appoint a "pro-abortion" justice.

Right out of the Fox News playbook. Who the hell is actually pro-abortion? I know a lot of pro-choice people, but never heard one praising the act of abortion.

What an embarrassment.

It was really nice of CNN to invite the other candidates to their Hillary Clinton rally.

Candidates being booed at a debate? And just by coincidence, it was only those who disagreed with Hillary who were booed. I think this will backfire on Hillary Clinton.

What's with the coordinated booing of Obama and Edwards? This week one of the stories involved how the Clinton campaign has been 'planting' questions at her meetings with Iowans. Is this loud and somewhat unspontaneous booing perhaps related in some way? One might imagine so. And why, after Obama gave a thoughful discussion of how we might consider a permanent and effective fix for social security, was Hillary Clinton's rejoinder that it would mean a trillion dollar tax cut on the middle class. Obama was right when he said that incomes earned by only six percent of the American people cannot be considered middle class. And when he called her on it by saying (rightly) that her response was the type of thing he'd expect to hear from Mitt Romney or Rudy Giuliani, he was booed. Whether spontaneous booing from the zealous pro-Hillary, or deliberately planned efforts to cow and embarrass her major rivals, the boos, along with her demonstrated commitment to Washington business as usual. make me all the more determined to keep Ms. Clinton from being my presidential candidate. My personal preference would be Edwards. Although he wasn't given as much time as either Clinton or Obama at last night's debate (after several early incisive answers that produced cheers from the audience), he always demonstrates in his clear talk and through his conviction why h'ed be the most effective general election candidate the party could field. I am convinced that if Hillary Clinton is our nominee we will be seeing another John Kerry moment. But I think it may be worse. John Kerry utterly lacked charisma but no one was opposed to him strongly. Because of that he was able to rally many who did not support him as their first choice to work on the general campaign. I strongly fear that a Hillary Clinton candidacy will be different--and not in a positive way. The booing will be remembered.

I think the Edwards moment with Iraq War veteran was the highlight of the evening. The Obama driver's license answer was weird, he had to know that was coming.

Blitzer was terrible.

Anyone who watches Chris Matthew's show The Hardball knows that he is in Edward's camp. He constantly attacks Hillary to the point of even counting how many times she claps her hands. By the way, those accusing CNN of having Clinton sympathizers on air for post debate analysis should focus on Fox news channel and would be shocked that Sean Hannity introduces Giuliani at an event. How about that dudes

What about the crowd's jeers? I thought Obama was a little more astute in backing off Hillary earlier than Edwards.

Folks -- Clinton leads in Nevada by over 20 points: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/nv/nevada_democratic_caucus-236.html. This was not a planted audience. This was an audience of Nevada democrats, and Nevada democrats overwhelmingly support Clinton.

Also, all this talk of Clinton not getting the support of 50% of general election voters is phony. Clinton does better then Edwards and Obama in head-to-head matchups against any Republican. She is the most moderate candidate, and voters like moderate candidates. Edwards and Obama might be best at pandering to liberals, but that doesn't go over well in a general election. Just think -- if Republicans really want to face Clinton, why are they attacking her and attempting to undermine her candidacy now, even before she's been nominated? Could it be that they actually hope to face a liberal like Edwards or Obama, rather than a moderate like Clinton who actually understands that issues won't be solved overnight and that incrementalism is the only way things get done in Washington.

By the way, those accusing CNN of having Clinton sympathizers on air for post debate analysis should focus on Fox news channel and would be shocked that Sean Hannity introduces Giuliani at an event. How about that dudes

Since when was, "as bad as Fox News" a term of praise?

The comment that Ms. Clinton does better in head-to-head matchups against any Republican is manifestly untrue in various polls. Two quite recent Rasmussen polls showed Edwards beating McCain by about 7 or 8 points, while McCain was 2 points ahead of Hillary. I don't have the precise poll data at hand, but it can easily be verified. Edwards' margin of victory against Romney was substantially larger than Clinton's as well.

Come on now -- Hillary does pretty much the same as Obama or Edwards against any candidate. Here are the polls:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/national.html

None of those polling figures show Edwards or Obama with any decisive advantage over Clinton. It's at best a couple percentage points in some match-ups. And in the most critical matchup -- against Giuliani -- Clinton does better than Obama and Edwards.

It's time to put to bed this fallacy that Clinton cannot compete in a general election. Obama and Edwards are too liberal for a general election, and I say this as a hard-core liberal myself who has come to realize that Clinton is our best choice.

john edwards makes me nauseous. he panders and cheeses his way through every debate. He does NOT look remotely presidential--that shit-eating toothy grin of his...
obama was excellent, even if he flattened later in the debate. I hate to say it but Hillary did pretty damn well-she didn't take shit from anybody. its sorta hot

When all the anti Clintonites are calling it a draw you have to know she was hitting them out of the park. Obama confirmed his bumbler moniker, Edwards was spanked by the crowd (all planted of course) when he got silly. Another sure sign. Check out Sullivan here. He's in exquisite agony over last night. Entirely personal stuff of course but then that's what Andrew does isn't it.

All you Hillary haters out there should get a life. Did you expect her to let them slam her without hitting back?. She exposed the hyprocrisy of Obama for supporting giving driver's licence to illegal immigrants then turn around and double talk about this same issue. Edwards takes money from Lobbyist but pretends he does not. They are all a bunch of hypocrites.

Hillary Haters:

Obama or Edwards will never win in general election. In first 10 minutes of the debate Hillary got back all the momentum that she lost in last 2 weeks. Obama and Edwards looked like school kids.

If you like it or not your choice in general election is between Hillary and Giuliani. Or if you don't like either move to Canada. Be realistic. Be practical. Do you really want George Bush on steroids in the white house for another 8 years.

Can we please just put the three of them on with Charlie Rose and let them duke it out, no rules, no time limits, they get to pick the questions on the fly.

All three of them are talented lawyers, I am SURE they can come up with some questions and think on their feet.

My choice of candidates for a democratic president was
significantly reduced last night following the Las
Vegas debates. I have been bouncing between Obama and
Edwards. Last night, after listening to his comments
on the immigration problem I dropped Obama. I remain
impressed with Edwards and when he commented on
Hillary's accepting special interest moneys I, like
the others who booed Hillary for taking the money,
became more impressed with him. I was most impressed
with Biden and his obvious knowledge of foreign
affairs, current laws, and eagerness to explain the
law rather than make promises he may not be able to
keep. As far as Hillary; she dropped off my radar when
she criticized the Pentagon employee (who was doing
his job) her accepting donations from known felons,
and her continual waffling (especially on the drivers
license and on immigration). America needs a president
we can trust: I do not believe Hillary is that person!

Dwayne

If you like it or not your choice in general election is between Hillary and Giuliani.

Then I am voting for Giuliani. I am a Democrat. I will never vote for Hillary.

The cnn network should be renamed the Clinton network! Oh sure ask Billary if she has been playing the gender card, which her campaign has used. Billary says no and then proceeds to play the gender card by telling the story about having lots of 95 year old women, tell her that they hope to see the first woman President before they die. Then she tells about fathers driving for hours so their daughters could meet her and the reason was to show their daughters that they could grow up to be President. If you think that wasn't playing the gender card, then I have some swamp land that you should buy. Billary was given slow pitches all night by cnn. Then she tells us that she can take the heat. Well she didn't, when questioned about her double talking on issues, she accuses Edwards of using Republican mud slinging tactics, instead of defending her double talking. Typical Clinton redirection of truth about her record of taking different sides of issues depending on who Billary is talking to. She is the pander queen and was unable to intelligently defend her multiple positions, so she falsely accused Edwards of mud slinging. Suggesting that a candidate who takes 5 positions on drivers licenses, for illegal aliens, in a 2 week period, is not decisive and forth right with the voters, is not mud slinging. Asking Billary is she has stopped throwing glass ware at Bubba, is mud slinging. Billary thinks most of her supporters can not tell the difference, she insults the intelligence of educated voters and cons the vast majority of her supporters who are relatively under educated. After taking 5 positions on an issue in a 2 week period, Billary tells a bald faced lie when she says that every one knows where she stands on issues based on her 35 year record. She "stands where she has always stood" she says, which is just plain silly and only believable with "a willing suspension of disbelief."

I don't understand. Who actually believes Clinton or any of the top tiers did anything amazing? The only thing the top 3 and I will include Richardson and Biden (although at times it shows he has some spine) is answer without answer or make up whatever they thing the people want to hear while in the back rooms they make deals with corporations for whenever they get elected. At what expense do these deals occur? Oh I don't know, maybe the neglected middle class and stagnant poor? The situation of undocumented workers is very important to many of the fearful whites out there much like it was with the African Americans and the Europeans of our past. Yet none of you out there care that we call a group of people barely able to survive in their own country "illegal" and "aliens". I don't know but i thought all men were created equal just not American born men. Like Kucinich boldly said no human being should be labeled illegal. When he was given the chance to actually speak he was greeted with roaring applause. I don't know maybe because the majority of the people in our nation do not want war and agree that it should be at the very very least of our priorities. The country is becoming more and more aware of the attack against them by the ultra rich. I would hope that the majority of the people reading the Atlantic would see this as this is the interpretation from a young man who knows many people of all ages living on many different wages. This country is very flawed and we are living in one of the most shameful periods of our history. Take some time and find the real leaders of change you won't find them in the top tier. I am sure you may all believe it but i am afraid to tell you that 4-8 years of any of them will lead to no real changes. Our education system needs a complete overhaul and education needs to stop being a business. Peace should be promoted not through strength but through unity and strong diplomatic ties of honest not money. Unions need to gain back their strength and workers rights need to actually improve. Racism, sexism, and many other flawed and unequal sociological normalcies run rampant throughout American culture despite the mainstreams media's inability to pick up on its subtlety. Please help America and pay attention to reality, I do not want more of the same. Edwards, Obama, and Clinton are cut from the same mold. Vote for change!


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