« McCain's New Ad: Loving America, Angrily | Main | What The Endorsement Of Hillary Clinton By New Hampshire's First Lady Means »

Is Mike Huckabee Playing The Mormon Card? (And Is It OK To Play The Mormon Card?)

26 Nov 2007 11:16 am

Take another look at his newest television advertisement.

On first watching, the assumption is that Huckabee is drawing a bright line between himself as a candidate of faith and the titular national frontrunner, Rudy Giuliani, as a candidate who lacks that bearing.

That may be too broad a reading. In Iowa, of course, Giuliani is nowhere and Mitt Romney, he of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is everywhere.

Now read this:

You know, I just don't think that's an appropriate issue for me to get into, the nuances of the Mormon faith. And it is not the sole criteria by which I think a person should be judged fit or unfit for the presidency, any more than I think people ought to necessarily make it the defining issue for me. I am very comfortable answering questions about my faith. I am probably the only candidate that has been subjected to this sort of detailed questioning about faith. I don't think Romney has even been. And my faith is a pretty mainstream view of the world and of the Bible. But I accept that as part of the whole process. I just think all of us should be prepared to answer questions regardless of what our views are, and let people sort that out. But that's why I don't feel comfortable in saying, 'Let me tell you what this guy believes.' You know what? I don't know what he believes. Even if I knew what his church believes, I don't know that I can say what he believes until he expresses it

What Gov. Huckabee is telling Salon's Michael Scherer is that Romney's religion can be a criteria by which people judge him, and that he believes that Romney ought to be subjected to questions about the content of his religious faith -- questions that Huckabee asserts have not been asked before.

Now watch the ad a third time.

A stout defense of Huckabee would point out that, with the media so obsessed about Romney's religion, any mention of Huckabee of his own faith -- a faith which, by all accounts, is central to his politics and morality -- would be illegitimate. Clearly, Huckabee has every right to try to win over voters on account of his evangelical background. In doing so, he challenges the consensus view that certain attributes, like religion, ought not matter. Of course, Huckabee is saying, they matter, and to pretend otherwise is foolish.

Is Huckabee playing the Mormon card, even unwittingly? Hard to say. His campaign says absolutely not. And intent matters, of course. But this being a postmodern political world, so does reception: it depends on the extent to which the targets of his television ad are aware that Romney is Mormon and are prone to object to it.

Comments (151)

I think if Huckabee is going to open to scrutiny of his faith, then what's fair is fair...Romney should face the same scrutiny. When Bill O'Reilly recently grilled Huckabee by asking, "so you think that belief in Christ is the only way to Heaven?"...I thought to myself, "why shouldn't Romney face the same questions?"

The fact is, Mormonism is a cult religion, it is NOT Christianity, and if Romney wants to try and pass himself off as a Christian, then he should be open to scrutiny.

Oh grow up Chris...

You don't get to decide if I'm a Christian or not...and if you really think that Huckabee is the one under scrutiny for his religion and not Mitt then you need to wake up as well as grow up.

Huckabee spent yesterday preaching at two Baptist churches, and it barely made the last page of any papers. He spoke of God needing more soldiers in his army. Could you even imagine the reaction if Romney did the same?

Chris:

Before you go spouting off on your canned truisms about what Mormonism is or is not, please lay down a sufficiently reasoned foundation for your dogmatism.

Your comments shows perfectly the problem with the "mormon question": people refuse to speak about thing outside of the narrow box of one line mudslinging.

Right on Elbeau!! How dare people tell us that we are not Christians! There are many religions because there are many belief systems, obviously we do not all believe alike. Maybe we should look at how we act, rather than at what we say we are. How does a Christian act? Time to review the Constitution and the Freedom of Religion concept.

Mormonism was founded by occultist and treasure hunter Joseph Smith Jr. I t has nothing to do with Christianity other than borrowing some of Judiasm and Christianity's history in a vain attempt to legitimize itself.

Anyone who wants a real look at Mormonism should read John Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven"

Chris:

Even though you think you're Christian, I've decided that you are now a worshiper of hornytoads.

Cool...now I get to decide what other people believe. This is GREAT. Next I'll use my new powers to change all Islamic fundamentalists into Zoastrians.

Great to see these "holier than thou" rethugs destroying each other rather than gays/minorities in the name of Jesus.

These rethug morons talk God during the day but screw around with prostitutes and gays, and take bribes behind the closed doors.

Reality Check:

The question here is whether or not I get to decide what I believe, or if YOU get to decide what I believe. You guys are really missing the whole point.

I find it fascinating that other people are so presumptious as to tell me whether or not I am a Christian. Isn't there a basic tenet of Christianity something about Judge not...

Mormons can "claim" to be Christians, but the fact is, they've added canons to the Bible, they have added doctrine that goes against the teachings of Christ, etc. They believe that Satan & Christ were once "spirit brothers", that there are 3 levels of heaven: "celestial kingdom, terrestrial kingdome & telestial kingdom". There are distinct differences in the beliefs on salvation (the foundation of Christianity) between Christians and Mormons, the trinity, and the authority of the Bible. Christians believe that the Bible is THE authority, Mormons give it the least amount of authority in their church. Christians also don't believe in "spirit beings", or that anyone can become a "god" in the after life.

I respect your beliefs, but don't disrespect mine by trying to pass yourselves off as Christians. Just accept what you are, and what you believe. I don't see any Jews, Muslims or Christians trying to pass themselves off as another religion.

Now don't try to fool us Chris. If I say you worship horny toads then you don't get to disrespect my religion by saying you don't.

Huckabee is just stating the obvious: if you make a person's religious faith an important factor in evaluating his or her qualifications for political office, then every candidate for political office will need to answer detailed questions about their religious faith.

Of course maybe a person's religious faith should not be an important factor in evaluating his or her qualifications for political office. But that is not what many in today's GOP have been saying recently.

So is Huckabee "playing the Mormon card?" Not directly. But he is supporting the idea that such considerations should matter, and surely he is aware that including such considerations will affect Romney as much or more as anyone else.

Well said DTM.

If somebody wants to make a point about how a specific candidate's performance as President will be influenced by his religion, I'm fine with that. That argument lets all the candidates display their history and show whether or not it is a problem. But to go beyond that and decide that their personal beliefs should be evaluated in the voting booth is really out of line.

Oh but sir, or Madam, We should judge! If someone is going around doing and saying things like Jim Jones did a while back, if those followers had judged him as according to what God said, they would be alive today! We are to use our brains and judge the ones that are doing wrong and saying it is God's word. I guess we are supposed to leave the terrorist alone and let them destroy the "Unholy" the lowest of the lowest that share THEIR SPACE ON THIS PLANET! That's us babe! I don't think the things they believe in is right, and we should not let it take over the world. Like Communist, we must fight, or be fought!

I don't give a rip that the Huckster holds his view of religion above the freedom of Americans...well, maybe a little.

However, I would like to know how he reinvented himself on abortion;

On 2/12/95 an article Ralph Z. Harlow from the Washington Times wrote under the caption "Conservatives Hold Fire On Abortion" the Huckster said this:
"In the spirit of federalism, the proposed GOP revision also would replace the abortion amendment with a statement saying the issue should be left up to the individual state legislatures to deal with as each sees fit. 'That's exactly what we have looked for, and if it's left up to the states, more of them are going to put some restrictions on abortion,' Arkansas Lt. Gov. Mike Huckabee said in an interview after appearing on a conference panel yesterday."

On 4/ 2006 in an interview with John Hawkins on RightWing News the Huckster was talking the same talk: http://www.rightwingnews.com/interviews/huckabee.php

"It would please me because I think Roe v. Wade is based on a real stretch of Constitutional application — that somehow there is a greater privacy issue in the abortion concern — than there is a human life issue — and that the federal government should be making that decision as opposed to states making that decision. So, I’ve never felt that it was a legitimate manner in which to address this and, first of all, it should be left to the states, the 10th Amendment, but secondly, to somehow believe that the taking of an innocent, unborn human life is about privacy and not about that unborn life is ludicrous."

BUT then on 11/19/07;
Huckabee Rejects Letting States Decide Whether to Allow Abortions
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312107,00.html

"If morality is the point here, and if it’s right or wrong, not just a political question, then you can’t have 50 different versions of what’s right and what’s wrong."

"For those of us for whom this is a moral question, you can’t simply have 50 different versions of what’s right,"he said in an interview on Fox News Sunday."

Somebody want to explain to me how he can pretend to do this and then publicly whine about people who still stand on the position he USED to have while you give the con artist a free pass??

Funny that Mormons so deeply want to be called Christians...kinda like Romney wants everyone to think he's always been pro-choice, and anti-gay rights as well?

I think Mormons who demand that they be considered Christians may be a little insecure about their own faith.

Have any of you so called christians even met a Mormon? I have met tons of them and almost without exception they are the most christ like people i have ever met. they read scriptures daily, pray daily and try to do service daily. church isn't just once a week for them they live it. and their life long goal is to grow and be more like Jesus Christ. Mitt Romney has done this his whole life, granted maybe Huckabee has too but its almost like guiliani, hillary and others almost have it better than mitt for not even having religion.

I believe this article is trying to create something that isn't there. Gov. Huckabee is merely stating that everyone should be held under the same type of quesstioning. He is not playing the "Mormon Card...." This is something the media has created...Gov. Huckabee will continue to rise above all of the attempts for him to "go after" other candidates, aside from the real issues that concern the American people.

Chris,

Yes, we belive Christ and Lucifer (as well as all human beings) are spirit brothers.

Yes, we believe in three levels of heaven.

Yes, we believe in additional canon to the Bible

No, the bible is not the least authoritative.

Yes, we believe God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct beings, one in purpose.

Yes we believe that we can become as God is.

Please show where these are refuted in the Bible. For every verse you give, we can give one in support. You see, the reason there are so many christian faiths is because no one can agree on what the bible says or means. So to say the Bible is THE lone source for the word of God leaves you in the dark.

BTW, regarding the fact that "we can become Gods", this is the second most clear doctrine taught in the bible, just after the Atonement of Christ. There are biblical verses throughout the New Testament teaching this. (Be ye therefore Perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect; Ye are heirs of God and Joint heirs of Christ; etc, etc, etc).

What is sad is that most of the "Christians" are so pigeon holed in their beliefs. I would think that if one worships another and holds another to such great respect and admiration, that that person would seek to learn all that is available about that person. When another comes along and says, "I know you are a believer in Christ, I have a book that teaches more about Christ, about his ministry in another part of the world", that the follower of Christ would at the least read it objectively and seek to know the truth. Sadly, most people disregard the Book of Mormon because it is not the bible or their pastor said it was evil. There is no contradiction, it is indeed another testament of Jesus Christ.

I believe this article is trying to create something that isn't there. Gov. Huckabee is merely stating that everyone should be held under the same type of quesstioning. He is not playing the "Mormon Card...." This is something the media has created...Gov. Huckabee will continue to rise above all of the attempts for him to "go after" other candidates, aside from the real issues that concern the American people.

By the way, Mormons, don't get so upset when others call you "not Christian". We are not their type of Christian, so what? Who says they get to determine who Christ is? They can't even agree amongst themselves on the nature of God.

Finally, to give a political note, Religion is fair game in the election. Everything is fair game, it is politics. It is what it is.

Romney SHOULD be questioned about his faith. Mormonism is crazy!!!

Bearing false witness of another does not always mean a conscious choice to lie. It can be failing to find out what the facts are before telling a story about someone else. It can mean taking things out of context or without foundation. You have seen examples of this above. Most don't know enough about Mormons to comment yet they do. If someone wants to know about us we are glad to tell them.

Swint:

There is no where in the Bible that states there are 3 levels of heaven.

There is nothing to support "spirit beings" or that we're "infinite in nature" like God...only that we become like him in moral purity in heaven.

The Bible is the authority of Christianity, and is the final word, not a canon to be added 1800 years after the fact.

Christianity also holds belief in the Trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit are "of one substance", "three persons in one being", not 3 distinct beings, while Mormons reject the Trinity.

Mormons believe that the Holy Spirit is separate from God...Christians don't.

We also don't believe that God has a physical body, or that Christ was one of the "original spirit beings" that all humans used to be.

Christians believe in original sin, Mormons don't.

Christians don't believe in a second chance after death...Mormons believe in a second chance, during a period of "learning and preparation" after death.

Christians also believe that Heaven & Hell are eternal...Mormons believe that spirits go to the spirit world, undergo preparation, then rejoined with bodies in the resurrection, and that hell can be temporary if the person repents.

I have many Mormon friends, and they've tried to convince me that we're the same. I've proven to them time and time again that Mormonism and Christianity are vastly different on many different levels.

It is OK for Governor Huckabee to disagree with Mormons. He can say so in his commercials if he likes. His staff can acknowledge that the commercials are aimed at collecting people who have similar religious leanings. Mormons usually don't take offense at such things. What we do take offense at is someone else's attempts at defining us or telling others what we believe and don't believe. Baptists don't know what we believe. There are many who think they do but they don't. So I don't take offense when Governor Huckabee says his religious views are different and he doesn't know what Governor Romney believes. At least he is honest, which 99% of the anti-Mormon commentators I read are not. In fact I will say 100% of the anti-Mormon commentators are wrong. Otherwise they would be including the Mormon side of the issue too which they don't.

Funny that Huckabee makes the silly claim that he has been asked more about his faith than Romney. Nice try. Romney's faith has been scrutinized from day one. The questions have been asked and answered a hundred times.

Marc, thanks for the interesting blog post. I think a Romney/Huckabee ticket would be the most fascinating.

Here is another flipflop by the flipflopper-in-chief..

Romney-appointed judge frees murderer who then kills again

Romney is desperately trying to short-circuit his own little Willy Horton controversy before it gets started, calling on the judge the resign. But the fact remains that Mitt Romney is a huge liberal, even by Massachusetts standards, and he appointed judges in his liberal image (not that I think liberal judges are pro-murder, but whatever the judge's reasoning, Romney appointed this judge because he approved of her reasoning - he can't now say "oops" after two more people are murdered because of his best (aka poor) judgment - how many more life-threatening "oopses" can America afford from yet another incompetent commander in chief?) That's what politicians do - they appoint judges who reflect their views. Romney is now trying to run away screaming from the judge he appointed only 20 months ago. Just like he's running away from his previous lifelong positions on guns, gays, abortion and more. Just add one more notch to the list of Mitt Romney death-bed conversions - and in this case, it's a literal death-bed conversion. Romney will be forced to talk about this judge the rest of his campaign, well, that is, the Republicans will force Romney to talk about this judge. The Democrats will find it too boorish to talk about this case, just like they find it silly to even consider talking about the right to privacy and so much more.

Dave,

You see, all of those things that I stated are supported in the Bible. Just like the things doctrines you believe in are in the bible. Therein lies the problem. If the Bible were clear on doctrines then there would not be thousands of different Christian denominations in the world. There would be only a couple.

The best example is the Trinity v. Godhead argument. I can understand why mainstream Christianty thinks that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are the exact same being, because there are verses in the Bible support it. But there are just as many verses in the Bible that support the LDS claim that they are three distinct and separate beings yet one in purpose. The strongest of these is Christ's intercessory prayer in John 17. There just isn't clarity. Do you know what separates the LDS belief from yours? We have the Bible to back us up AND additional evidence. When Joseph Smith had his first vision he saw both God and Jesus Christ. This settled the matter immediately. Now you can choose to not believe it, that's fine. But regarding accuracy of claim you have less of an argument than me, you have the Bible. I have the Bible and more evidence. My "argument" would win in a court of law (so to speak) every time.

So my point isn't about proving Mormons to be Christian or to even claim Mormons are right. My point is, is that "Christianity" has no more right or legitimacy to claim what is or isn't true or correct or Christian than anyother religion. You only have one source for truth, at least we have more to back up what the Bible says.

abc,

You lose all credibility. If you have an issue with Romney's judicial appointment, say so. But to say he this is a flip-flop with such animosity makes you look like a hack. The justice issue is no where near a flip-flop. Grow up.

Yeah! How DARE their sect of tribal religious superstition claim the artifacts they dug up out of the soil are more authentically the word of the big Magic Friend in the Sky than OUR Bronze Age tribal religious superstition's artifacts! Our superstition is better than their superstition, after all we've been more successful at torturing, colonizing and dominating peoples into believing them (or pretending to until their kids do for real) over the centuries (in the name of God and Love of course) than anyone else! Nyah! Nyah!! God is greatest! So there!!

(What century is it again? Does this country even WANT to survive?)

I try not to be angry when these people use their own narrow minded and bigoted definition to say catagorically who is christian and who is not, as if they had that kind of authority. I try to remember that these bigoted veiws were probably instilled in them by their bigoted pastors or parents while growing up. The Bible very clearly teaches us how to recognize a true follower of Christ. "By their fruits ye shall know them." Mormons as a whole are more christian than most of the so-called christians out there. And btw, Mitt Romney talks about his faith all the time. It is not his role however get into deep discusions about the doctrines of the church. He is not the Church spokesman and it has nothing to do with the capacity he is trying to fill.

Concerning Mitt Romney - all we are asking for is honesty and transparancy . Romney is the one who is happy to play the religious card saying words to the effect that America should have a man of faith as its President . Fine why doesn't he just be open and tell the American people what he means by this . Please Mr Romney tell us you believe Jesus is the Devil's brother , tell us that humanity originated on a planet near a star called Kolob and that God the Father is married ( actually there are plenty of Mormon leaders who have said that God is a Polygamist ) and tell us that the Mormon view of salvation is one of progression to becoming a god . American people think of it you have a man who wishes to be President and he believes one day he will become a god .

I am a British citizen so I dont have a vote , but I tell you it would be a catastrophe for your country and indeed the world if a Mormon was elected President . As a conservative and a Christian I wish every success to Mike Huckabee

Andrew Price:

Give me a break. What are you seriously afraid he would do as president based on his faith? Is he going to make a special american holiday favoring Kolob? Oh brother.

Now he's a certified flip-flopper and there may be plenty of reasons not to vote for Mitt...but his religion has not dominated his politics and you have no reason to believe that will suddenly change.

Mr Elbeau - I am afraid you have just got to grasp the nettle that many people , not just Christians find Mormonism deeply repugnant - can you comprehend that the idea that Jesus is the Devil's brother will concern many people . Even if you dont understand it , Mitt Romney does and that is why he will not speak about his real belief system . Why should the American people be kept ignorant . Here are two more questions for Mr Romney . When you were a mature young man in the 1970's did you dissent from : 1 the outragious views of the Mormon leadership concerning Black people eg Mormon Apostle Mark Peterson in The Way Of Perfection , said "Our Negro brethren ...notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness" pp101-2 1935 Edition . 2 The horrible practice of baptizing dead Jewish holocaust victims in the Mormon Temlples ?

Dave:
Let's set some things straight.

The word trinity appears nowhere in the Bible, not once. The word was created by the scholars brought together by Emperor Constantine 325 years after Christ, the nature God was not even agreed on by all present at the First Council of Nicaea. BTW the word "Godhead" scorned by many Christians actually occurs in the Bible. In Luke 2:49, Christ says that he is about His Father's business. If they were one in substance, wouldn't he be about his own business?

On another subject, Isaiah 14:12 states "How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"
What does this tell you about Satan's position in heaven before the world was?

Let's see, next topic, levels of Heaven.
2 Cor. 12:2
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Three Heavens? Who would have thought that the Bible itself speaks of three Heavens?

Many of the views you have expressed came from 1800 disagreeing scholars commissioned by Constantine I to define Christianity. The Bible is indeed Authoritative in proclaiming the Word of God, but who's interpretation of the Bible? Fourth Century Scholars? Just because they defined Christianity in a certain way, doesn't mean that all religions that fall in any way outside of this creed ore not Christians. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Please don't try to tell me whom I do or do not follow.

Christian pastors are "bigoted" because they follow the scripture in the Bible...and identify those who bear false witness?

Funny that Mormons would call anyone bigoted, given the stance that Mormonism took towards blacks up until the past 25 years.

Christianity is not achieved through works, we're saved by grace through faith. Works are an act of obedience.

The Mormon baptism for the dead thing pretty much goes against the entire foundation of Christianity.

Andrew Price: I try to make it a rule not to delve into religious tenets if I'm in a political blog...but I'm going to give in here and address this a little.

You ask "can you comprehend that the idea that Jesus is the Devil's brother will concern many people"? I don't mind if it concerns people...I do mind if you make it a political argument, because it's not.

Perhaps we should question Huckabee because Elijah sent two bears to tear apart 42 children that were making fun of his bald spot (see 1st Kings). If Huckabee doesn't make a speech explaining that, then nobody should vote for him.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS. Get a grip.

Now, in all of this I'm not saying that NOTHING about Mitt's religion affects his politics. The argument that some here are making about racism has political merit if you find a way to apply it to Mitt...but seriously, let's have a discussion about how religion would actually AFFECT the candidate's ability to serve our country instead of just throwing mud and trying to scare people about us freakish little cultists.

Give me a break.

Romney the flip-flopper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_w9pquznG4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9IJUkYUbvI&feature=related

Supported aborting unborn children, lied about accepting an endorsement from a pro-life group, supported gay marriage, and he ripped Ronald Reagan. Now he's trying to make us think he is just like Ronald Reagan, strongly opposes abortion and gay marriage.

Chris:

HOOOOORRRRAAAAYYYY!!!!!

You made a political argument in this blog! I knew you had it in you somewhere.

No arguments about the flip-flopper...it's pretty blatant.

Religion should stay out of political discourse. Period. The Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves every time a presidential candidate touts their faith. Huckabee, while not personally himself, has played the Mormon card. On numerous occasions his staff has cowardly leaked anti-Mormon comments. You can't hide behind your staff, Huckabee. You've played the card.

Elbau,

The minute mormons "dug up" (so to speak) my relatives to "baptize" them into the mormon religion, they any credibility to claim ownership of real religion. Mormons are "freakish cultists", no question. If you would like to apologize for this horrific behavior, I may accept your apology, but I doubt it. And, that act alone certainly does give people the right to question what how mitt's religion will affect his actions, if elected.

There's nothing to be said for voters get to decide what's important? For the record I'm some one who has had Mormon friends (moved) and has no problem with a Mormon president (although I strongly object to a Romney presidency)

With that said, a third of Americans say they would have trouble voting for a Mormon. Isn't it their perogative to decide what qualifies someone or disqualifies someone for the highest office in the land?

With regards to whether Mormons are Christian, well, Mormons should call themselves "Original Christians." The early Christian fathers did not teach Trinity, they came about around 300 AD during the Nicene Council. Original Christian teach was that the Godhead are three separate beings, supporting the Mormon Christian. The argument of not adding to the Bible is idiotic. Scripture is merely writings of prophets. The Bible is just a bunch of writings slapped together. It's also out of order. So, if archaeologists found more writings of Isiah, would evangelicals scream "It's not scripture! It's not in my bible!" Please, how close minded is that. In addition, deification was taught by the early Christian fathers, as well as multiple levels of heaven. So fine, Chris, Reality Check, and you other bigots, don't call Mormons Christians. How about "Original Christians". I like that.

Mr Elbeau - Since when has Mormonism seperated religion from government ? May I remind you Joseph Smith was going to stand for President , his followers ie the coucil of 70 declared him king on earth and he was also Mayor of Nauvoo .

Are you asking any rational objective person to accept the notion that when Brigham Young ruled Utah for over 25 years that he did not do so as a theocrat ?

Mormonism has a world view and believes that it ie The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints the only true Church on the face of the earth is the best vehicle of governance .

Are you seriously asking people to believe that
Utah is not governed with the principle [ as much as they can dare get away with ] of what is best and advantageous for the LDS Church ?

Mr Elbeau , if you are Mormon , you know this very well and you are not being open and honest , in other words you are being exactly like Mitt Romney.
However if you are genuinely ignorant of the nature of Mormonism then I hope my comments and the comments of others will have informed you .

AmandaRuth: Like others here, you make no real connection between your dislike of our religion and the reason it would affect somebody's performance as president. As far as the doctrine of baptisms for the dead goes...we don't "dig up" anybody, we are baptized in place of somebody and we do not believe the baptism has any affect unless that person accepts it. And then there's the comparisons with so many "mainstream" Christian religions that say that a baby who dies before baptism is burning in hell?...yeah...we're the ones who are kooked out here.

But no matter what you think about all this...HOW DOES IT APPLY TO A SPECIFIC CANDIDATE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT? It doesn't. It's a religious argument and you just don't like us as a group.

Zach: Nobody here is arguing that anybody should not be given the right to choose who to vote for. Nobody tells anybody they can't vote for a candidate based on their race. They only point out that it is wrong and should be rejected by the people. It is not a question of civil rights, it is a question of civil principles.


The authors, whose writings became The New Testament,(and there were many authors), wrote to varied audiences. Some wrote to the Jews, some wrote to the Gentiles, some wrote to the Christians. When writing to the Christians, often understanding of topic was assumed since the congregrations knew the details of what was being shared. For instance, the word Baptism could be used without going into details on what Baptism was. A Christian congregation would know. Being Christitan, they would have received the ordinance of Baptism for themselves. When talking to the Gentiles much more care was taken to teach the principles of the gospel in full so that there would be understanding. When writing to the Jews there was often doctrine that had to be restored because it had been lost through apostasy.

Many Christians today read these verses in the Book of Revelation and wonder at individuals who think that there could ever be more scripture given:
THE REVELATION
OF ST JOHN THE DIVINE
CHAPTER 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now if you do a bit of research you will find that the Bible did not come to us as one book, written in sequence. The letters and writings of the Apostles were compiled, into what we call the Bible, years after the Apostles died. The Book of Revelation was not necessarily the last book written. The Book of Revelation was at a latter date added to the writings of other Apostles and complied to become the Bible. The words John wrote about "not adding to or taking away from" where in connection with his writings only.

The Jews might have a case against the Christians for the Old Testament states in DEUTERONOMY
CHAPTER 12
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

I think mankind is very presumptuous to believe in God and then try and dictate to God what He can and cannot do. (He will not speak to man anymore. He has given us His final word. He will not appear to mankind anymore etc. He will not send prophets to the earth anymore.) If God choses to reveal more, He will and He won't ask permission from anyone. Questions to ponder: Does God not reveal himself anymore because He can't? Has He ceased to care about us thus He doesn't reveal himself? Maybe we don't need Him any more? If the answers to these questions are yes...then the Bible is probably enough for any person. If the answers are no....then God is very much the same, yesterday, today, and forever and we should look for His established patterns; such as sending prophets, restoring truths and priesthood authority that have been lost through apostasy, as well as visions, dreams, revelations, miracles and so forth.

Andrew Price: "King on earth eh?...I thought I'd heard them all...but that's a new one. Since you assault Joseph Smith, why don't I quote him for you: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates; in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law". Yeah...we're out for a theocracy.

As far as the Utah thing...Rocky Anderson is (?still?) the mayor of Salt Lake City (Mormon Central) and he is quite decidedly anti-mormon. Salt Lake is less than 50% Mormon and Utah as a whole is only 60% Mormon. Let's compare that with some southern states and see who owns the theocracy in this country.

If you want to judge candidates based on the history of their religion, I can provide links to many european museums displaying the torture devices that "mainstream Christianity" used to use in the conversion process.

Of course, I still don't see how this relates to any particular candidate running for office right now.

fyi. huck is paying for signatures in virginia to get on the ballot

http://tooconservative.com/?p=1676

so who is buying votes now. on the other hand, i heard off the record that romney has gathere 15,000 signatures in va from a huge grassroots volunteer effort.

i also heard that fred's campaign is having a hard time gathering enough signatures to get on the ballot there. he may not make it.

These comments and contention are one reason why we have so many religions and why religion and politics are bad bedfellows.

Many times, unfortunately, religion brings out the worse in us, not the best.

The bottom line for all who say they follow Christ is to get along. Find common ground. Stop bickering. We really can have different views, and ... we really are allowed to have different views.

Stop the Christian bashing --- we'd have a TON of denominations to trash if we continue this route.


IT IS FAR BETTER TO FIND REASONS TO UNITE, RATHER THAN TO FIND REASONS TO DIVIDE.

I think Huckabee's comment shows a lot of class.

He is clearly a devout Christian who is unwilling to judge Mitt Romney's faith or his faith's tenets. He's instead chosen to allow Romney to answer, or not answer, as he sees fit.

On another note, demanding that Romney answer questions about his membership to "a crazy Mormon cult founded by convicted fraudster Joseph Smith" is a bit loaded, don't you think?

Perhaps we might ask Giuliani if he espouses the ideals of "that crazy cult that kills Jews and burned Galileo to death for not agreeing that the earth was the center of the universe."

My point? All religions have some elements of "crazy" in them. Romney was raised Mormon, his beliefs are second nature to him. Yes, some of the details surrounding Mormonism sound a bit wacky, but the ethics inspired by the religion seem in perfect line with mainstream Christianity.

Cheers to Huckabee for his sense of fairness and class. Cheers to Romney for not wasting time on irrelevant religious issues. Boos to small-minded xenophobes who would persecute either of these fine men for standing behind their religious heritage.

How has Huckabee ever "played the Mormon card"??? There's no evidence to suggest that his staff "leaked" anything out, either...and to claim that they have is absurd.

Put any of them on the stage, one-on-one, in a debate with Huckabee, and he slices and dices them all up. This is precisely why Fred Thompson called for "Lincoln-Douglas style debates", and then immediately back tracked when Huckabee challenged him. It's also why Romney backed out of the December 4th debate in Iowa. He can't stop Huckabee's momentum in Iowa, and he knew Huckabee would once again win another debate. That's cowardly...it should be put out there for the people of Iowa to decide. If you can't hang...get out of the race.

We are all pawns, and we are only fighting fellow Americans.

IT IS FAR BETTER TO FIND REASONS TO UNITE, RATHER THAN TO FIND REASONS TO DIVIDE

I have to take a step back here and ask a few of you if you can honestly even hear yourselves.

You have Mitt Romney running for president. He is WIDE open to political attacks on many fronts...but instead of confronting him on things that are relevent, so many people are running around yelling the sky is falling because he's a Mormon.

I am an American Mormon. You may think I'm wierd, kooky, or whatever...but I'm no threat to your country. Mormons have been serving in high levels of the US government for well over a century now. A man who later became our Prophet even served in the presidential cabinet, overseeing feeding a very hungry Europe right after WWII. He didn't attach copies of the Book of Mormon to the potatoes he had flown in.

We're as American as you. There's over 6 million of us in the US, and we're not known as particularly dangerous folk. Is there any way you can take a step back and view me as a worthy American?


1 Corinthians 15
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

(Mention of Baptism for the Dead in the New Testament? Where was Paul the Apostle going with this?)

Here's a little homework for all you debating the Christian question...

1) What is the definition of a Christian?
a) a person who belives in the concept of God developed during the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.

b) a person who belives in the concept of God developed during the First Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D.

c) a person who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ

Answer: C (see Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16)

2) Which of the following are Christians?

a) Protestants
b) Evangelicals
c) Catholics
d) Mormons
e) All of the above

Answer: Based on the definition above, all of the above are following their own interpretation of the teachings of Christ.

Why can't all you Christians get along?

ANTI-MORMON alert........

Andrew Price has an ax to grind the size of Montana. Hey Andy - I suppose having Harry Reid (D-Nevada) as the Senate Majority Leader, and a Mormon, has really blown your bigoted theory of a Mormon cabal and their inability to govern. Are you an anti-Semite or does it just stop with Mormons? Having your invective bigotry and hate spew over the internet from England is not only laughable, it kills your argument and allows people to see into your black heart.

Yes, Andy....we're taking over the world.....Marie Osmond will be appointed as the next Speaker of the House....

Leave our country and it's religions alone. How is the state-run church working over there by the way?

Are 7th Day Adventists Christian? Are Anglicans Christian? Are Baptists considered to be Christian? What about members of the Ukrainian Orthodox religion? There are a lot of diferent religions in the world that claim to believe in a Jesus Christ that lived 2000 years ago, but yet have very different ideas concerning the particulars of their beliefs. So what is the benchmark? Are all religions being compared to the beliefs of the Roman Catholic church? And if that is the case, all religions that are not Catholic should therefore be considered to be not Christian? To say one church that preaches of Christ is not Christian compared to another church that teaches of Christ differently seems pure speculation and based on complete random arbitration. The last I checked, "Christian" wasn't a church.

As for Romney - I'm very sure he would answer any questions about his religion someone asked sincerely. Like everyone else, no one likes to be criticized or belittled because of one's beliefs.

is this the same andrew price cult member who likes to spend his time abuseing mormons and has been critasised by a british judge

Mr Elbeau - Politics is the science or theory of government I ask you again , since when has Mormonism separated religion from government ?
All you seem to do is to keep throwing in red herrings and insult .

Some of us are trying to get to the bottom of Mormonism and Mitt Romney which seems to be most important given the fact the USA is the most important country in the world .

As it is getting on for midnight in the UK you will forgive me I need to go to bed , but one last question for the Romney apologists .
When there were protests in the 1970s in Provo and Salt Lake City concerning the Mormon view on race and their treatment of black people - what was Mitt Romney saying and doing ? Remember Romney was a mature young man at the time

I suppose if Lieberman calls himself a democrat, Mormons can call themselves Christians. Personally, I find arguments about semantics boring and unproductive.

I'm a Mormon. I served a mission and I baptized a lot of people. I payed my own way for two years. Every member has a responsibility in the church and no one gets paid. Members pay tithing of 10 percent. Roughly two chapels are built every day. At any given time there are roughly 50,000 missionaries spread throughout the world and 250,000 people are baptized every year who will pay 10 percent of their income to the churhc....The point is that I can see why the mainstream Christian leaders encourage their congregations into believing Mormons are cultists. It is because the The Church of Jesus Christ (Mormons) have had greater success in obtaining converts, are more organized, and our lay clergy are a threat to their way of life. Mega churches, big homes, fancy cars, and 6 figure incomes have become the norm for smooth talking preachers who have their congregations hang on their every word...These people who claim that I or any other Mormon wishes to be included into the mainstream are fooling themselves, they give themselves too much credit. You will not hear in any sermon given by a Mormon anything critical of another faith. Mormon motivation is not driven by hatred for other churches. It's principles and teachings, which are centered in Christ, stand on their own. It does not need the kindling of hatred for another church to keep it's fire burning.

Religous tolerance is a virtue.

That goes for Christians, Muslims, Mormons and the like. Attacking or degrading someone else's religion is position of moral weakness not strength.

Lets jus look at the candidates:

Mitt is interesting. He is clean cut with family values but unfortunately he is a politician's politician. I mean I don't think he would make much of an impact in office. He won't be as bad as the current adminstration by any stretch but he does sway to popularity.

I am very concerned about our future and we need to make changes and I mean BIG ones. I have been a long time Republican voter and I am pulling for Ron Paul.

He like Mitt seems very ethical but everyone knows Paul does what he says he will do. I just don't see that with any other candidate. Maybe it is time we take a risk. Mitt is safer but Paul is more dynamic. I feel with all the economic news coming out we are in a bad place and we are literally going to have to rethink govt. to get out.

I don't know if Huckabee is playing the Mormon card, but I believe that he is going to win the election for Giuliani a liberal conservative at best. If Huckabee does well in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina....then Giuliani will carry the day. Huckabee will divide the true conservative vote. Funny that Giuliani the social liberal of the GOP and Huckabee the fishcal liberal of the GOP could together take down the only truly conservative candidate Mitt Romney. Mitt's a real fighter and if people listen with ears to hear....they will vote for Mitt.

RE: Mormons=Christian?

"The Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:
32. Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," 2 Nephi 33:
10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

mamaen, very good words. It is sad that so much ignorance is spread by those of little knowledge about another's religion. If they would only listen, they could be edified with truth.

I don't think Mike is "playing the Mormon card" He is simply saying who HE is. And what he says about himself is true; and it has been true for a long time; and I for one very much get the feeling that it will continue to be true for a long time as well. I find this transparency and consistency and candor very refreshing. Thanks Mike!

This has been all interesting to read. It has made me wonder why those who call themselves Christians and say others are not, are so mean-spirited. The spirit of Christ is not in their message. I've heard it time and time again.
I've read material and heard ministers give out false information about the Mormon church. Why are they so afraid? Is is because they will lose their income? I don't get it. I refuse to be part of any religion that goes about condemning another religion. Contention is not from God. OH and an interesting comment was made about Jesus and the Devil being brothers. You know, I can believe that, because I personally have a brother that has chosen a very wicked course and has encouraged others to help him in his wicked deeds. Sounds reasonable to me.

Mitt Romney is the topic here. Do we want a President that will help us in the world? Do we want to feel secure that we have a true leader who loves the country and wants to do all he can to help get it back on track? Do we want someone who can abide by the constitution? Or do we want someone who caters to others and worries about his own political ambitions. Only we as individuals can decide for ourselves. No one is going to persuade us by their subtle or unsubtle bashings. We can all make up our own minds. We will have a chance to go into a private electorial booth and make the decision that we feel is right. I am grateful for the privilege to vote by my own conscience. Let's allow others to do the same and stop all this contention.

This has been all interesting to read. It has made me wonder why those who call themselves Christians and say others are not, are so mean-spirited. The spirit of Christ is not in their message. I've heard it time and time again.
I've read material and heard ministers give out false information about the Mormon church. Why are they so afraid? Is is because they will lose their income? I don't get it. I refuse to be part of any religion that goes about condemning another religion. Contention is not from God. OH and an interesting comment was made about Jesus and the Devil being brothers. You know, I can believe that, because I personally have a brother that has chosen a very wicked course and has encouraged others to help him in his wicked deeds. Sounds reasonable to me.

Mitt Romney is the topic here. Do we want a President that will help us in the world? Do we want to feel secure that we have a true leader who loves the country and wants to do all he can to help get it back on track? Do we want someone who can abide by the constitution? Or do we want someone who caters to others and worries about his own political ambitions. Only we as individuals can decide for ourselves. No one is going to persuade us by their subtle or unsubtle bashings. We can all make up our own minds. We will have a chance to go into a private electorial booth and make the decision that we feel is right. I am grateful for the privilege to vote by my own conscience. Let's allow others to do the same and stop all this contention.

After all the scandals that have rocked politics and have plagued both parties over the past few decades I have decided one factor I care about more than religion is integrity. I'll take a Mormon with integrity over a charlatan christian everyday of the week.

Huckabee led a scandal laden administration. He was cited for violating campaign finance rules FIVE TIMES. Among his boneheaded and dishonest actions was to pay his babysitter with campaign cash. He finished out his administration by destroying government property when he smashed the governor's office's computer harddrives. On his way out the door he loaded up a moving van and took everything out of he governor's mansion that wasn't nailed down--art, rugs etc that were not his to take. (I am not making this up).

Romney led a scandal free administration. In a state that is bluer than blue he avoided scandal at every turn because he is a man of integrity. Romney's appointee's similarly avoided scandal and investigation in every respect. Romney left the state and the governor's house more flush than when he came in office. He is not a perfect candidate but the Dems have nothing on him--no bones in the closet at all.

Scandals distract you from your focus. Scandals stop you from pulling off your political agenda. They hurt Clinton and they hurt Bush. I want a President that is above the fray. I don't care how many sermons Huckabee made at churches or hotel conference centers last week. I just hope the hotel asked for the towels and bathrobe back.

What do Mormons (nickname for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not a proper name) believe?

The following is from the Wentworth Letter, which Joseph Smith sent in response to a request from a newspaper in Chicago near the end of his life, prior to his assassination by a mob in Carthage, Illinois:

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to gendure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

Who is Joseph Smith? Here is his history, also in his own words:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1

This is a part of American history you do not read about in the history books, but it is true.

163 years after his death in 1844, Joseph Smith has brought over 13 million people to a greater knowledge of and relationship with Jesus Christ. When Huckabee, Giuliani, or any other candidate has done the same, they can judge. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the fourth largest Christian church in America, and in not many years will be more numerous than Baptists, and then see who gets to tell who if they are Christian.

My guess is we won't presume to excommunicate anyone from the broader Christian family for their beliefs.

All I have to say is, there must be something extraordinary about Mormonism for it to be the fastest growing Christian church in America in spite of such unfounded criticism.

Romney and "Mormonism" ftw.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Alma 31:
30 O Lord God, how long wilt thou suffer that such wickedness and infidelity shall be among this people? O Lord, wilt thou give me strength, that I may bear with mine infirmities. For I am infirm, and such wickedness among this people doth pain my soul.
31 O Lord, my heart is exceedingly sorrowful; wilt thou comfort my soul in Christ. O Lord, wilt thou grant unto me that I may have strength, that I may suffer with patience these afflictions which shall come upon me, because of the iniquity of this people.
32 O Lord, wilt thou comfort my soul, and give unto me success, and also my fellow laborers who are with me—yea, Ammon, and Aaron, and Omner, and also Amulek and Zeezrom and also my two sons—yea, even all these wilt thou comfort, O Lord. Yea, wilt thou comfort their souls in Christ.
33 Wilt thou grant unto them that they may have strength, that they may bear their afflictions which shall come upon them because of the iniquities of this people.
34 O Lord, wilt thou grant unto us that we may have success in bringing them again unto thee in Christ.
35 Behold, O Lord, their souls are precious, and many of them are our brethren; therefore, give unto us, O Lord, power and wisdom that we may bring these, our brethren, again unto thee.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Mosiah 3:
17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

We are all pawns, and we are only fighting fellow Americans.


June: Thanks for your great comment -- and for all of the other voices of reason and brotherly kindness.

Christians should be acting like Christians -- whatever church they may be attending.


IT IS FAR BETTER TO FIND REASONS TO UNITE, RATHER THAN TO FIND REASONS TO DIVIDE

manaen - I hope that people read your input.

Thank you.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Helaman 5:
12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Helaman 3:
35 Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," 2 Nephi 31:
13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
• • •
19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow apath, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

Wow--Mormons really do believe that they are the persecuted people, don't they? So, if I'm understanding all the Mormons out there, it's not "Christian" to criticize the Mormon faith or to be wary of a presidential candidate who follows that faith. A "real Christian" doesn't criticize another's religion, correct? Interesting, since the Doctrine and Covenants (Mormon scripture)mentions that the "prophet" Joseph Smith was told to join no "Christian" religion because their minister were all "corrupt". Here are a few other "critical" comments that the Mormons have made in the past--but it's ok if they are critical of others--we just can't be critical of them. Makes perfect sense to me.
Mormon Views Concerning Christianity--by former Mormon prophets and apostles:
“The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic Mother of Harlots, and over all her Protestant Daughters; . . . the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell: . . .” (Pamphlets by Orson Pratt, p. 112)

“The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro withersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was groveling in darkness.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, page 73—Brigham Young)

“We may very properly say that the sectarian world do not know anything correctly, so far as pertains to salvation . . . They are more ignorant than children.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 229—Brigham Young)

“Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 176—Brigham Young)

“The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 170—Brigham Young)

“With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 199—Brigham Young)

“What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 25—John Taylor)

“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense . . . . the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 167—John Taylor)

“What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing; . . . Why, so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol 13, p. 225—John Taylor)

“ Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the “whore of Babylon” whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act.” (The Seer, p. 255—Orson Pratt)

(The Mormons will disavow this information since it wasn't their "current" leader who made these comments--their religion gets to evolve and disavow anything that might be damaging to it. By the way, as a Mormon for 38 years I know exactly what the Mormon people can be like--which is why I would never vote for a Mormon president. We need someone in the White House who can think for himself, who is not self-righteous, and who doesn't think he's already made it to Godhood.)

Hello Marc:

I sent in a YouTube question for the Republican debate. It is about defending religious freedom. It can be found by:
1. Googleing - "YouTube Republican Presidential Debate".
2. Click on - "YouTube - Broadcast Yourself".
3. Click on - "See the questions that were submitted!".
4. In the "Go to entry" box type in number 4878. It should start to play by itself.

All the best,

Phil Taylor

chris p and Elbeau:
chris up at the top is not trying to say that you are or are not a christian. i know mormons and they are some of the coolest nicest people i know; however if you look at church doctrine then it is TOTALLY clear what the difference between mormonism and christianity is. i HAVE done the research; have you? most mormons themselves haven't.
mormosism is not part of christianity.
i have discussed key issues with many mormons and they have not given answers. mostly because there aren't any satisfactory answers.
and i am not basing this off of the God Maker's series.
i am talking modern day sciendtific research.
mormonism doesn't line up.
so though i can't know wheather or not your'e a christian, i do know that mormonism is NOT a legitament branch of christianity.

i have also researched many of the claims surrounding all the cantidates. at first i was turned of about huckabee. bad record they said. then as i researched i realized how the media and influential groups like the club for growth are feeding people one sided lies about all the cantidates.
DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, PEOPLE!!!! this is america, we KNOW what we think. we don't just stupidly believe what we want to hear.
at least i hope you do.
i hope i do.
thanks you all.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Alma 34:
8 And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
13 Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.
14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.
15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.
16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.
• • •
37 And now, my beloved brethren, I desire that ye should remember these things, and that ye should work out your salvation with fear before God, and that ye should no more deny the coming of Christ,;
38 That ye contend no more against the Holy Ghost, but that ye receive it, and take upon you the name of Christ; that ye humble yourselves even to the dust, and worship God, in whatsoever place ye may be in, in spirit and in truth; and that ye live in thanksgiving daily, for the many mercies and blessings which he doth bestow upon you.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Ether 12:
41 And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Doctrine & Covenants," 18:
21 Take upon you the name of Christ, and speak the truth in soberness.
22 And as many as repent and are baptized in my name, which is Jesus Christ, and endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
23 Behold, Jesus Christ is the name which is given of the Father, and there is none other name given whereby man can be saved;

Jed Merrill-
the reason mormonism is the fastest growing cult in america is because it is advertised as a family friendly branch of christianity. most christians do not know what they are getting into.
i know a kid who grew up mormon and said it was like being hypnotized. he just assumed that it was true.
but after steping back he realized how foolish he had been.
take a look at the doctrine.
you posted as part of the official doctrine " we believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."
when the BOM is put to the test; it does not come out clean. it does not pass the word of god test.
also the belief that mormons came from israel to america has been proven bogus. archeologically, genetically, etc. i mean there were supposed to be huge populations of people with advanced archetechture but there is NO trace. no like even potery!!!
do the research.
then post.
LDS: as man is god once was. as god is man will become.
notice i didn't capitalize the G in god. their definition of God is different.
yet their goal is to make it seem like a branch of christianity.
if there were a mormon reading this they would deny it all. but like i said the average mormon does not know much beyond the surface.
thanks for readin!
sam
ps did you ever wonder why the lds temples look like rockets? it's because they are supposed to become part of heaven.
and by the way their view of heaven is radically different from what the bible states.
and the book of mormon is in conflict at many places with the bible. and the bible has been proven acurate tons of times. the book of m? weell. ill just say not tons. more like the opposite of tons.

manaen-
what do you mean by God?
sam

As for occultist and convicted conman Joseph Smith, Jr, too bad the old boy didn't know about DNA, clever as he was. But he couldn't see that one coming, and now Mormons have to scramble to explain the dissonance away. This is the risk one takes when promulgating one's fiction as the inerrant word of God.

Of course it's true: virtually every Mormon I've ever met is unfailingly polite and the picture of an upstanding citizen. That doesn't make their religion any less a fraud.

Sam's on drugs! Forgive him, for he knows not what he's doing or saying or spewing. Poor dear!

jake what did you say?
i am a commited christian who loves mormons who has done his research what can you say for yourself?
sam

by the way the only thing im not sure about from my post is the thing about the rockets though im almost sure.
don't think im crazy i just don't want religious or anti-religious bigitry being swung around.
we all have our faults.
mine are probably bigger than yours.

right.

ya humanity don't forget the dna their kinda caught on that one.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Mosiah 5:
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.
9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.
10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God.
• • •
15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

manaen-
like sam said; when you think of God, who is he to you?

o and where did God come from?

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Jacob 4:
4 For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also all the holy prophets which were before us.
5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.
• • •
11 Wherefore, beloved brethren, be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son, and ye may obtain a resurrection, according to the power of the resurrection which is in Christ, and be presented as the first-fruits of Christ unto God, having faith, and obtained a good hope of glory in him before he manifesteth himself in the flesh.
12 And now, beloved, marvel not that I tell you these things; for why not speak of the atonement of Christ, and attain to a perfect knowledge of him, as to attain to the knowledge of a resurrection and the world to come?

ok stop posting these awesome verses and respond
lol

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," 3 Nephi 28:
23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the gospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of that generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," 2 Nephi 32:
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Mosiah 16:
6 And now if Christ had not come into the world, speaking of things to come as though they had already come, there could have been no redemption.
7 And if Christ had not risen from the dead, or have broken the bands of death that the grave should have no victory, and that death should have no sting, there could have been no resurrection.
8 But there is a resurrection, therefore the grave hath no victory, and the sting of death is swallowed up in Christ.
• • •
13 And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?

Just curious. To all who believe that Mormons aren't Christians, how do you convince the non-Christian electorate (Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus Atheists, etc.) that a Mormon candidate is a bad choice for the president of the United States.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Alma 37:
33 Preach unto them repentance, and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ; teach them to humble themselves and to be meek and lowly in heart; teach them to withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Andrew Price, what is your real objective for posting on these boards? Maybe this article will shed some light.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/01/nmorm01.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/12/01/ixhome.html

Dang...you miss a lot of great blogging by sleeping.

I honestly hope that you'll forgive me for missing the last 10 hours or so.

It looks like the conversation has gone into Book of Mormon history and american genetics?...the problem is this: Just like everything else, our critics are really just out to be critics. I tried to engage people on the actual science of this a couple of days ago and just got snuffed. Check it out:

http://forums.heraldtribune.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3941081465/m/6371025276/p/1

People hate us because they like to hate us.

Just like that blog I posted, I would like to engage some people who assert that the Book of Mormon has been disproven archeologically or genetically. I'd like to start a different blog just on that topic where we can get rid of the vitrol you see here? Are there any of our critics here who can put away the hatred and simply discuss the science of this without spouting all this anti-mormon stuff?

We are all politican pawns, and we are only fighting fellow Americans.


Christians should be acting like Christians -- whatever church they may be attending.


IT IS FAR BETTER TO FIND REASONS TO UNITE, RATHER THAN TO FIND REASONS TO DIVIDE

After my comment about starting another blog for discussing this archeologically, my comments started being held for approval. Was this wrong of me to suggest? If you think I'm drawing attention away from your site I would be glad to have the discussion here...but preferably in a different thread. It was not my intent to drive the conversation somewhere else.

Never mind...it posted without need for approval that time...any takers on the other discussion?

elbeau from this: http://forums.heraldtribune.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3941081465/m/6371025276/p/1
posted this:
"We seek truth from God and spread a message that he will actually hear you and answer those who are searching."
my simple question would be "how do YOU define truth. the question of what is truth in this case would lead to a dead end; all we want to know is what he thinks truth is and how God reveals it.
now i believe that God reveals truth. and God's truth is testable. against itself, against anything you throw at it.
oh, and for AC:
i would not try to convince anybody not to vote for mitt for example just because he is a mormon.
in fact, if he had a good record, i would vote for him.
yet if you look at mitt's record he was not as he says he is and was. he says he is a conservative; yet to get elected to gov of MA he convinced everyone that he was more liberal than ted kennedy.
conservative?
oh, and if you just look at the history of american presidents, in GENERAL, and i will repeat myself; in GENERAL, christian presidents have been better presidents.
now you cannot just base that off what they say. they have of course figured that out, and say they are christians.
so the only thing to do is look at their record.

now i've stated my point that it really mostly just matters what they have done- hopefully they will continue to do the same. the reason i wouldn't vote for a muslim cantidate (and no i am not trying to say Barak) is because if he is really a muslim, then his religion tells him that i am an infidel.
scary.
so just because someone is not a christian, perhaps a mormon, that does not mean i wouldn't vote for them. but if they have a bad record, theyre gone.
there is more but i have to study for a midterm.

o and elbeau thanks for makin this such a great discusion ya i would be interested to have another thread to discuss it. im really not as crazy as i seem.
:)

jack s:

I agree with most everything you said, and I appreciate you not ruling out somebody based on their religion.

I don't understand the contention you had with my comment. My comment said that I seek truth from God. Not that I would presume to define "truth".

jack s:

LOL...yeah...I'm not as wacked as people seem to think I am either. Let's get a few people on board...also I don't want to seem that we're stealing people away from this site...is there any way to start a different discussion on this site?

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Jacob 1:
6 And we also had many revelations, and the spirit of much prophecy; wherefore, we knew of Christ and his kingdom, which should come.
7 Wherefore we labored diligently among our people, that we might persuade them to come unto Christ, and partake of the goodness of God, that they might enter into his rest, lest by any means he should swear in his wrath they should not enter in, as in the provocation in the days of temptation while the children of Israel were in the wilderness.
8 Wherefore, we would to God that we could persuade all men not to rebel against God, to provoke him to anger, but that all men would believe in Christ, and view his death, and suffer his cross and bear the shame of the world; wherefore, I, Jacob, take it upon me to fulfil the commandment of my brother Nephi.

TRUTH

Jesus said, in Doctrine & Covenants 93:
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.
23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;
27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.

RE: TRUTH & Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Alma 5:
44 For I am called to speak after this manner, according to the holy order of God, which is in Christ Jesus; yea, I am commanded to stand and testify unto this people the things which have been spoken by our fathers concerning the things which are to come.
45 And this is not all. Do ye not suppose that I know of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety?
46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.
47 And moreover, I say unto you that it has thus been revealed unto me, that the words which have been spoken by our fathers are true, even so according to the spirit of prophecy which is in me, which is also by the manifestation of the Spirit of God.
48 I say unto you, that I know of myself that whatsoever I shall say unto you, concerning that which is to come, is true; and I say unto you, that I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.

RE: TRUTH & Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," 2 Nephi 33:
6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

Thanks for outting Andrew Price, TS.

To the trinitarian Christians out there (and this is a serious question, not a gotcha), can someone explain what trinitarian Christians think Stephen saw when the heaven's opened? In all of the translations of Acts 7:54-56 that I've seen, Stephen says he saw Christ "standing" at "the right hand" of God. I've always been curious what people think Stephen was actually describing.

RE comment Posted by Debrar | November 27, 2007 10:02 AM

Christians should be acting like Christians -- whatever church they may be attending.


IT IS FAR BETTER TO FIND REASONS TO UNITE, RATHER THAN TO FIND REASONS TO DIVIDE

Jesus prayed, as quoted in John 17:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jesus also taught, as quoted in The Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 11:
28 [...] And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.
29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

manaen:

Thank you for posting; I don't think many “anti-Mormons” honestly know what the “Mormon” church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) teaches, nor that the Mormon church discourages bashing other religions.

As with all faiths, we of course believe ours to be the correct and true religion … otherwise we would not belong to it -- however, that is totally different than arguing, bashing.

ya thanks manaen for posting.
matt- i have to study like crazy right now for a test but good question i have an answer.
ps: i agree no bashing allowed

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," 3 Nephi 7:
15 And it came to pass that Nephi—having been visited by angels and also the voice of the Lord, therefore having seen angels, and being eye-witness, and having had power given unto him that he might know concerning the ministry of Christ, and also being eye-witness to their quick return from righteousness unto their wickedness and abominations;
16 Therefore, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds—went forth among them in that same year, and began to testify, boldly, repentance and remission of sins through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.
17 And he did minister many things unto them; and all of them cannot be written, and a part of them would not suffice, therefore they are not written in this book. And Nephi did minister with apower and with great authority.
18 And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily.
19 And in the name of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean spirits; and even his brother did he raise from the dead, after he had been stoned and suffered death by the people.
20 And the people saw it, and did witness of it, and were angry with him because of his power; and he did also do many more miracles, in the sight of the people, in the name of Jesus.

I'm still hoping to get some of our critics here to have a level-headed discussion about whether the Book of Mormon has been disproven archeologically as has been claimed here. So far "jack s" has shown some interest, but nobody else. "sam" used this as an attack point so I'm hoping that he will at least be willing to discuss it too? how about it? and how about anyone else?

ya elbeau sure let's do it!
i didn't mean to be mean or come accros as a bigot.

Thanks sam:

I got a little hot-headed yesterday too and I'm also sorry. As I said above, I'll wait a little more today to see of others want to be on board (and because I'm at work right now) and I'll start a thread somewhere for us to use.

Count me in, I'll try to make it.

I created a blog for us to use on "Wordpress" under the username "Elbeau". If I post the URL it gets held for approval.

Just go to "elbeau" dot "wordpress" dot "com"

Isn't it sad? Two christian brothers fighting while the Muslims are trying to kill them both. What's that phrase? United we stand, devided we fall?
You are both free to worship as you may. So shut the hell up already, or I'll send you to your rooms.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," 3 Nephi 7:
15 And it came to pass that Nephi — having been visited by angels and also the voice of the Lord, therefore having seen angels, and being eye-witness, and having had power given unto him that he might know concerning the ministry of Christ, and also being eye-witness to their quick return from righteousness unto their wickedness and abominations;
16 Therefore, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds — went forth among them in that same year, and began to testify, boldly, repentance and remission of sins through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

* * * * *

Moroni 10:
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

I think the Mormon bashing is pretty funny actually. Mormons are the tamest people I've ever met, if our country happens to be run by a stereotypical Mormon we should be in good hands. I think Huckabee would be good too, I wish he was more charismatic or as good looking as Romney, but he is practicing Christian and in my book that's as good as a practicing Mormon, both people are trying their hardest to live Christlike lives.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," Moroni 6:
3 And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.
5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.
6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.
7 And they were strict to observe that there should be no iniquity among them; and whoso was found to commit iniquity, and three witnesses of the church did condemn them before the elders, and if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ.

* * * * *

Moroni 10:
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Let's see if this link will work. Just remove the leading _ before cutting and pasting the URL into your browser.

_http://elbeau.wordpress.com

Mormons are Christians! We really do try to follow Christ and we do believe his teachings. I wrote more of my thoughts at http://abc.eznettools.net/michaelparkinson/blog/mormons_are_christian.html

Gov. Huckabee raised taxes in while overseeing the budget in Arkansas. According to Robert Novak, taxes in Arkansas were raised 47%. Governor Huckabee has also been on record for supporting Amnesty for illegal aliens. Mike Huckabee is playing the Mormon card because it is the only issue that makes him sound like a conservative. He is not a Conservative, he is a big spender, and look at the state of Arkansas not one state wide official is a Republican. Many observers believe Gov. Huckabee destroyed the Republican Party in Arkansas.

And that's tonight's talking memo!

The Spin Stops Here!

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but NO RELIGIOUS TEST SHALL EVER BE REQUIRED as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."(emphasis added)

Does anyone recognize the source?

It comes from the Constitution of the United States Article VI.

What I find truly interested is how far we as Americans have come from the document that defines not only our government, but our very way of life.

In case you're curious, I am Mormon, but 'no' that doesn't mean that I plan to vote for Romney cause we're both part of the same club or something.

I think that what we should be arguing here is not whether a candidate's religion is publicly palatable, but whether a candidate's values, principles, and political platform align with our own. Our Founding Fathers understood that freedom of religion meant freedom of religion and that one's religion could not and should not be a determining criteria regarding a candidate's fitness for office.

So, as a Mormon, I find that while both men profess (assuming that you can trust anything a politician professes) Christian values, Huckabee presents a strong, decisive stance on many issues that are important to me and that I feel are pertinent to our national welfare. And I his views are more in line with my own than Romney's. But perhaps that's because I have yet to have seen Romney really come out hardline on any issue and to me that's a real turn-off in any candidate.

So, the end of the story -
I don't care if the candidate is agnostic, Jewish, Evangelical, Mormon, or (heaven forbid ;) Muslim as long as I can look at their ideals and their platform and feel comfortable with it.

I would recommend that we all take a look at our personal beliefs and decide which candidate best represents our interests and values and lay aside the 'religious test' since in the end one's professed religion is only one's words and as James (and all the apostles as well as Christ) taught in the Bible, 'its not what we say but what
we do that counts'.

It is really a very nice post and it contains all the valuable information about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and much more about the Catholics Christianity and i like the information very much.

To the Mormons posting on alleged early Christian history:

You have been deceived by others, are ignorant, or are lying.
"The word trinity appears nowhere in the Bible, not once. The word was created by the scholars brought together by Emperor Constantine 325 years after Christ"
This line is used by all sorts of cultists/Muslims/JWs/Mormons, etc, but it is false and misleading. Nobody is claiming that the word "trinity," anymore than the word "Christianity" is. The stuff about Constantine only shows that the person claiming this has NEVER studied ancient history or read the piles of Christian writings that are dated from from 90 AD to before 300 AD. These are sometimes called the ante-nicene "fathers." Of course, they aren't really "fathers" but are a reflection of what some people believed at the time. I have many historical writings in my room from people who believed in the Old and New Testaments, One God, the deity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, heaven and hell, justification by faith in Christ, Christ suffering for our sins on the cross, his glorious resurrection, the final judgement, the resurrection of the dead, etc. All of them pray to God alone, and they don't teach the Assumption of Mary, that Mary was sinless, that there is a "pope" or that he is "infallible." Yes, it is true that over time "some" have departed from the faith and that eventually we see the slow development of eastern orthodoxy and eventually roman catholicism. These writers clearly taught that there is One God, as do all the prophets and apostles. How sinful can you be to attack God's true prophets and apostles, claiming that their writings are not understandable, to exalt the false, lying prophets and apostles of Mormonism?
And unlike the false mormon prophets and apostles, God's true prophets and apostles don't contradict each other over the decades. Do not commit adultery, do not steal, hypocrites. There is only One God. If you look lustfully at a woman, you've committed adultery with her in your heart. Your "religion" and "good works" isn't going to wash away your sins, only the blood of Jesus Christ can. God cannot be bribed, and He will not allow your boasting in His presence. Jesus Christ is truly God and Man, and was crucified for our sins and rose from the dead, never to die again, and is coming in judgement. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ receives forgiveness of sins. Give up your wicked religious hypocrisy and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ! Only He can save you from your sins! I say this out of love for you my fellow creatures. Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life.

Sadly, Mitt Romney will probably lose the nomination to Mike Huckabee, a CFR member and socialist. Just read the following link for proof:

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=208685

Then, some day soon, when this nation is at the brink of ruin, those people who have falsely labelled the humble Mormons as a cult (a cult is any organized religion) will say "let us have a man who can talk with Jehovah."

Unfortunately, it will be too late.

I just saw this BLOG and would like to point out that Webster's Dictionary simply defines Christian "as a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings". That commonly accepted definition is entirely consistent with "Mormonism" as shown by the many direct quotes above from the Book of Mormon, which Mormons accept as another testament of Christ along with the Bible. Certain bigots have for years spread the big lie that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not believe in Jesus Christ. That's like saying the Pope is not Catholic. But if you repeat a lie often enough, apparently some ignorent people will believe it. The undeniable truth is that the LDS Church has always worshiped Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of God and Savior of the world. Every prayer, sermon and ordinance in the LDS Church is offered in the name of Jesus Christ. In fact, Mormons go so far as to try to emulate the Savior, and actually live their lives (imperfect as they may be) in accordance with His example and teachings. Mormons don't preach for money either. (Maybe that's what peeves greedy televangelists and back-biteing "evangelicals" so much.)

No self-appointed "expert" has the right to arbitrarily redefine Christianity according to his own wisdom, so as to exclude the vast majority of those who humbly believe in Christ and seek to follow Him. Let God judge what's in our heart, not man.

As a Democrat, I am sickened by this:

"Romney SHOULD be questioned about his faith. Mormonism is crazy!!!

"Posted by Democrats Against Hillary | November 26, 2007 1:41 PM"

And I freely admit not only that I sent Democrats Against Hillary a piece of my mind at their site but that I am aware that I may be breaking unspoken "netiquette" in copying my post here on this exchange, but I feel it important that Democrats Against Hillary, going and coming, know that there are Democrats out there who are outraged and feel a keen sense of betrayal by this disgusting remark. Here's what I wrote them:

As one who usually votes Democratic and who hopes that Hillary Clinton will not be nominated and who has been somewhat impressed by Mr. Obama, it was painful to me to find certain intolerant remarks by someone otherwise similar to me posted at

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/11/is_mike_huckabee_playing_the_m.php

and reflecting the kind of sectarian religious bigotry that is always destructive. The remarks were credited to Democrats Against Hillary and were aimed at Mr. Romney and his being a Mormon. I will not be voting for Mr. Romney, but it is disgusting to go after anyone's beliefs, period! Tearing down others' religious beliefs is not what I thought either Mr. Obama or Mr. Edwards or Mr. Richardson were all about, each of whom I may seriously consider for President.

If the offensive anti-Mormon remark at

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/11/is_mike_huckabee_playing_the_m.php

indeed comes from Democrats Against Hillary, that is cause for shame on my part, since disgusting remarks like that reflect badly on those others like myself who also hope that someone other than Mrs. Clinton will be nominated by the Democratic party.

On the other hand, if this disgusting remark is a "dirty trick" planted at

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/11/is_mike_huckabee_playing_the_m.php

to discredit those like myself and those others participating on this blog who also find an Obama or an Edwards or a Richardson of serious interest, then it is urgent that those at this blog be alerted to someone's posting repulsive bigoted remarks in their name.

Lest anyone be cynical enough to suppose that this complaint of mine comes from a practicing Mormon, then let me tell you that I am a practicing Presbyterian and that I would be equally disgusted had I seen a similar post by any Democrat similarly aimed at any other creed. Such a Democrat demeans her/himself by targeting any other candidate for being anything from a Hindu, or a Jew, or an atheist, or a Zoroastrian, or a Taoist, or a Buddhist, or a Confucian, or a Platonist, or a Christian, or a Moslem, or a Shintoist, or a Deist, to a Bahai, let alone a Mormon (please note the strict chronological order here -- no favorites!).

Sickened,

Geoffrey Riggs

Is Mormonism a cult? What do Mormons believe?"

Answer: The Mormon religion was founded less than two hundred years ago by a man named Joseph Smith. He claimed to have received a personal visit from God the Father and Jesus Christ and told that all churches and their creeds were an abomination. Joseph set out to impose a brand-new religion that claims to be the “only true church on earth.” The problem with Mormonism is that it contradicts, modifies, and expands on the Bible. Christians have no reason to believe that the Bible is not true and adequate. To truly believe in and trust God means to believe in His Word. And all Scripture is inspired by God, which means it comes from Him (2 Timothy 3:16).

Mormons believe that there are in fact four sources of divinely inspired words, instead of just one. 1) The Bible “as far as it is translated correctly.” Which verses are incorrectly translated are not always made clear 2) The Book of Mormon was “translated” by Smith and published in 1830. Smith claimed it is the “most correct book” on earth, and that a person could get closer to God by following its precepts, “than by any other book.” 3) The Doctrine and Covenants is considered scripture by Mormons, containing a collection of modern revelations regarding the “Church of Jesus Christ as it has been restored.” 4) The Pearl of the Great Price is considered by Mormons to “clarify” doctrines and teachings that were lost from the Bible and adds its own information about the earth's creation.

Mormons believe these things about God: that He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe, but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort. They believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” Though abandoned by modern Mormon leaders, Brigham Young taught that Adam actually was God and the father of Jesus Christ. Christians know this about God: there is only One true God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6-8), that He always has and always will exist (Deuteronomy 33:27, Psalm 90:2, 1 Timothy 1:17), and that He was not created, but is the Creator (Genesis chapter1, Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 37:16). He is perfect and no one else is equal to Him (Psalm 86:8, Isaiah 40:25). God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9). He is Spirit (John 4:24), and Spirit is not made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39).

Mormons believe that there are different levels or kingdoms in the afterlife: The Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom and outer darkness. Where mankind will end up depends on what they believe and do in this mortal life. The Bible tells us that after death, we go to Heaven or Hell based on whether we had faith in Jesus or not. To be absent from our bodies as believers means we are with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). Unbelievers are sent to Hell, or the place of the dead (Luke 16:22-23). When Jesus comes for the second time, we will receive new bodies (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). There will be a New Heaven and New Earth for believers (Revelation 21:1), and unbelievers will be thrown into an everlasting lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). There is no second chance for redemption after death (Hebrews 9:27).

Mormon leaders have taught that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary. They believe Jesus is a God, but that any human can also become a god. Christians historically have taught that God is Triune and that He exists eternally as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). No one can achieve the status of God, only He is holy (1 Samuel 2:2). We can only be made holy in God's sight through faith in Him (1 Corinthians 1:2). Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16) and is the only one ever to have lived a sinless, blameless life, who now has the highest place of honor in Heaven (Hebrews 7:26). Jesus and God are one in essence, Jesus being the only One existing before physical birth (John 1:1-8, 8:56). Jesus gave Himself to us as a sacrifice, and God raised Him from the dead, and one day everyone will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:6-11). Jesus tells us it is impossible to get to Heaven by our own works, only with faith in Him is it possible (Matthew 19:26). And many will not choose Him. “You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way” (Matthew 7:13). We all deserve eternal punishment for our sins, but God's infinite love and grace has allowed us a way out. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

Clearly there is only one way to receive salvation; to know God and His Son, Jesus (John 17:3). It is not done by works, but by faith (Romans 1:17, 3:28). When we have this faith, we will automatically be obedient to God's laws and become baptized out of love for Him, but not because it is a requirement for salvation. We can receive this gift no matter who we are or what we have done (Romans 3:22). “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Although Mormons are usually friendly, loving, and kind people - they are involved in a false religion that distorts the nature of God, the Person of Jesus Christ, and the means of salvation.

Recommended Resource: Reasoning from the Scriptures with Mormons by Ron Rhodes.

Is Mormonism a cult? What do Mormons believe?"

Answer: The Mormon religion was founded less than two hundred years ago by a man named Joseph Smith. He claimed to have received a personal visit from God the Father and Jesus Christ and told that all churches and their creeds were an abomination. Joseph set out to impose a brand-new religion that claims to be the “only true church on earth.” The problem with Mormonism is that it contradicts, modifies, and expands on the Bible. Christians have no reason to believe that the Bible is not true and adequate. To truly believe in and trust God means to believe in His Word. And all Scripture is inspired by God, which means it comes from Him (2 Timothy 3:16).

Mormons believe that there are in fact four sources of divinely inspired words, instead of just one. 1) The Bible “as far as it is translated correctly.” Which verses are incorrectly translated are not always made clear 2) The Book of Mormon was “translated” by Smith and published in 1830. Smith claimed it is the “most correct book” on earth, and that a person could get closer to God by following its precepts, “than by any other book.” 3) The Doctrine and Covenants is considered scripture by Mormons, containing a collection of modern revelations regarding the “Church of Jesus Christ as it has been restored.” 4) The Pearl of the Great Price is considered by Mormons to “clarify” doctrines and teachings that were lost from the Bible and adds its own information about the earth's creation.

Mormons believe these things about God: that He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe, but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort. They believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” Though abandoned by modern Mormon leaders, Brigham Young taught that Adam actually was God and the father of Jesus Christ. Christians know this about God: there is only One true God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6-8), that He always has and always will exist (Deuteronomy 33:27, Psalm 90:2, 1 Timothy 1:17), and that He was not created, but is the Creator (Genesis chapter1, Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 37:16). He is perfect and no one else is equal to Him (Psalm 86:8, Isaiah 40:25). God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9). He is Spirit (John 4:24), and Spirit is not made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39).

Clearly there is only one way to receive salvation; to know God and His Son, Jesus (John 17:3). It is not done by works, but by faith (Romans 1:17, 3:28). When we have this faith, we will automatically be obedient to God's laws and become baptized out of love for Him, but not because it is a requirement for salvation. We can receive this gift no matter who we are or what we have done (Romans 3:22). “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Although Mormons are usually friendly, loving, and kind people - they are involved in a false religion that distorts the nature of God, the Person of Jesus Christ, and the means of salvation.

Recommended Resource: Reasoning from the Scriptures with Mormons by Ron Rhodes.

This election demonstrates the depth and ugliness of religious bigotry in this country. Romeny is accused by Christians of not being a Christian. The irony is... it is such an anti-Christian thing to say about someone who plainly professes to believe in Christ. Romney is the best thing that's happened to the republican party in years. If the evangelical right rejects him because of their hatred of his religion, then they deserve what they'll get... four years of Hillary.

What is so ironic about all of this discussion about whether or not Mormons are "Christians" or not is that it fails to recognize how tenuous all modern claims to "True Christianity" are. There are basically two classes of Christian denominations in the World - Catholics, who claim an unbroken line of authority directly from Jesus Christ, and Protestants, who feel strongly that the Catholic Church became irreparably corrupted over the long centuries since Christ walked the Earth. From that standpoint - all Protestants – of which Mormon’s count themselves, find themselves in the unenviable position of having to figure out how to “get back” to the original Christian Church. The only real difference between mainstream Protestant denominations and Mormonism is in their approach to solving this central problem. Mainstream Protestants have taken a forensic approach - reconstructing the early Church out of the records of the time - now constituted as the Bible, while Mormons lay claim to restoration and revelation and through modern Prophets.

Although Mormons and mainstream Protestants disagree on many individual points of doctrine – they all boil down to the central idea that Mormons do not feel constrained to limit their religious expression to only those points found explicitly in the Bible. Mormons are unapologetic on this point - and mainstream Protestants are equally unapologetic about their vigorous denunciation of Mormonism because of it - almost as vigorously unapologetic as is the Catholic denunciation of Protestantism itself.

In truth ALL claims to "True Christianity" are tenuous at best. In order to prove “True Christianity” Catholics must prove that their sect has preserved the original doctrines and beliefs of Jesus Christ without corruption through the ages, and given the sordid history of the Catholic Church in the middle ages, this is a yeoman task. Mainstream Protestants must prove Catholics have not done this AND that their interpretation of scripture is correct AND that the Bible contains ALL the essential teachings of God AND that nothing essential has been lost or altered in the Bible over the centuries that the Catholic Church had monopolistic charge of the Bible AND that they are in fact authorized by God to split from the Catholic Church to begin with. Mormons have monumentally difficult task of proving that Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God.

In my humble opinion, all of these are difficult tasks, and each one requires a generous portion of faith in certain un-provable tenants in order to believe it. For one of these faith based religious traditions to criticize another as being ridiculous on its surface is hypocritical and ignorant to the role that faith in the miraculous and inexplicable plays in each of these belief systems. We really should have more respect for one another and more appreciation for the individual journey that each Christian goes through as they attempt to find God in their own lives.

To those trying to discredit the Mormon church, what are you trying to prove? Christ spent his life going out of his way to to preach to Gospel. He didn't go to the Gentiles and give them a list of reasons why their religions were wrong. He simply shared the Gospel and left it to them to believe or not.

To those Mormons that are entrenched defending their faith, move on. The people who want to learn will seek you out, or invite the missionaries in when they knock. You are only empowering those people that want to engage others to tear down their beliefs.

I am a Mormon, and I support many of the issues that Huckabee is running for. As of right now, he has my vote. While I believe that Romney is a good person, his political flip-flopping troubles me. I find that his running for President is bringing much unneeded attention to religion. I doubt there is anyone in here that can, without looking it up, tell what the religions of the past five Presidents were.

Remember, the President of the United States must answer to all the people of America, not just Christians. If there is this much tension over a Mormon running for President, there is no way the people of this country would ever elect a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or other non-Christian candidate. As long as this country remains bigoted against groups of people that "aren't like themselves", we open ourselves to civil strife and division that could cause the eventual demise of this great Nation.

"Remember, the President of the United States must answer to all the people of America, not just Christians. If there is this much tension over a Mormon running for President, there is no way the people of this country would ever elect a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or other non-Christian candidate. As long as this country remains bigoted against groups of people that "aren't like themselves", we open ourselves to civil strife and division that could cause the eventual demise of this great Nation."

Thank you Nick! In this day and age, especially with the horrifying sectarian bigotry that triggered 9/11 still a lacerating memory, what you write here should be a no-brainer. It's discouraging that there are still people out there who don't grasp this plain warning. People persecuted for their religion came here for freedom. How can anyone contemplate abandoning the precious liberties that brought so many of us here?!

Best,

Geoffrey Riggs

I used to think Huckabee talked a good game . . . slowly I've come to think of him very differently. But I was really turned off about a few days ago. At a rally when asked about his meteoric rise in the polls and why that was so . . . his answer God. Yes, God Himself is the reason for Hucks rise in the polls. How full of himself can a guy get. I'm sorry, but when you've had FIVE ethics violations and over FOURTEEN investigations, I highly doubt that God is on your side. Some part of me actually wants Clinton (wow, this is sad) to win . . . so that the Republicans will actually start ACTING like Republicans and be conservative.
Let's see the list of Republicans:

Guiliani: Dressed up in drag, lots of back door-ethics deals in NY, definitely NOT a conservative

Huckabee: Talks a smooth game, 14 ethics investigations, 5 violations, not to mention destroying over 100 Executive Governor' House hard drives before leaving office, claims God is responsible for his rise in the polls.
One word-SNAKE

Thompson: Dottering old guy, likable but gosh . . with so many . . "I think I'll do a good job, and this is what I think I'll do". I think I'll pass on this on.

Romney: Better than the rest, likable, family guy, smooth talker, decent fellow: Two-words: flip-flopper & POLITICIAN

Then we come to my favorite:

Ron Paul: Proven 10+ year record of conservative values, you name it, taxes, income, SS, money, foreign policy (well the pre-Bush,2003-let's kick Iraq's butt b/c we can, policy). A very honest man. Oh by the way, the "top-tier" candidates have started to copy his lines-love that one. Someone who actually wants to follow-and he means it-the constitution.

I personally have had an epiphany of late, and I have a challenge for conservatives. Do a little research on Youtube (it's great) research some (I would say all, but that would take a lot of time) of the conservative presidential nominees that later became president over the past 50 years. Compare and contrast their "conservative" platform to their actual time spent in office. Even Reagen brought us massive deficits-so much for fiscally responsible!

They all talk a good game, but they all walk a different walk. The ONLY exception is when the opposition is in Congress-Bush is way more conservative now w/ Dems in power vs. Reps. Shoot, he's actually used the veto!

Any of the "top" candidates and we'll get more of the same, but no real conservative change. Then we'll wake up 30 years from now and say . . . what the ---- happened to America.

Full-disclosure: I'm LDS (aka Mormon), and I couldn't give a hooting heck about what anyone else thinks about my Christianity, b/c of a few things I know.

I know that there is a Supreme Being/God/Heavenly Father that knows me and loves me, I am a child of God. Because of His great love for me and all his children, He gave me the opportunity to come to earth and to gain a body. He wants me to return to live with Him. He knows I will screw up (sometimes big) and thus having sinned and being imperfect, I cannot live with Him. God knowing this sent His only-begotten to earth. I know that ~2000+ years ago a man named Jesus Christ walked this earth and taught the Jews. I know that He is the Only-Begotten of the father, the Son of God. He suffered for my sins and the sins of all the world. I know that He is my Redeemer, my Savior. His great sacrifice and suffering, which I can't even begin to imagine-taking upon Himself the weight of the world's sin, His great love for me , and all of God's children, allows me the opportunity to return to live with Heavenly Father-to become clean, free from sin. He was crucified-died, and rose on the third day. Because of Him, all mankind will be resurrected. Without Christ, everything in this world would be for naught. I strive to live my life the way Christ taught we should live. I've endeavored to follow His teachings. I don't always do so . . . and I screw up and sin . . . but He is always there, waiting for me to fess up, repent and return to Him. How amazing His Infinite Atonement . . . so amazing it is hard to describe. I spent 2 years of my life, trying to help others come unto Him, not just to be a member of any church, but to truly come unto Him, to become His disciple.

So you know . . . all those people who say I'm not a Christian, I just don't care. I know that I personally have found Christ, I believe in Him, and I have faith in Him.

I hope by my actions, and my character others around me can see that too.

I think the grand-daddy of all posts on here are the ones saying "Mormon's aren't Christian because they have additional scripture beyond the bible."

How ironic does it get!

Let's look at Christianity. It differed from Judaism when Judaism had stopped accepting prophets and held the Old Testament as the law of God, seemingly worshiped as God rather than leading to God.

The rejection of early Christianity was based on the notion that God could no longer speak, and the law of God was set in stone and could not change. But on the Christian side, change it did. No more animal sacrifices, but a Lord's supper. A higher law, you could even say a new God (or new name for the same God worshiped in the past as Jesus Christ), as well as the abolition of Kosher, and most of the 616 laws.

The Jewish rejection was based on the idea that this could not be a true religion because their word of God was already complete and God could not speak or add to His word.

So now, 2000 years after the Jews fought the early Christians because God could no longer speak and thus Jesus could not have been their Messiah - we find a new litmus test for the term Christian - which is that God can no longer speak?

Ironic, huh.

I've also sen this verse alluded to:

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

I guess the guys alluding to that didn't read on:

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So what is this "another gospel" that should be accursed? According to verse 12, it would be a gospel denying revelation and made by man claiming no divine revelation.

Again, it's all very ironic.

Nobody can claim that I'm not Christian without stepping into some really deep hypocrisy.