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Is Mike Huckabee Playing The Mormon Card? (And Is It OK To Play The Mormon Card?)

26 Nov 2007 11:16 am

Take another look at his newest television advertisement.

On first watching, the assumption is that Huckabee is drawing a bright line between himself as a candidate of faith and the titular national frontrunner, Rudy Giuliani, as a candidate who lacks that bearing.

That may be too broad a reading. In Iowa, of course, Giuliani is nowhere and Mitt Romney, he of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is everywhere.

Now read this:

You know, I just don't think that's an appropriate issue for me to get into, the nuances of the Mormon faith. And it is not the sole criteria by which I think a person should be judged fit or unfit for the presidency, any more than I think people ought to necessarily make it the defining issue for me. I am very comfortable answering questions about my faith. I am probably the only candidate that has been subjected to this sort of detailed questioning about faith. I don't think Romney has even been. And my faith is a pretty mainstream view of the world and of the Bible. But I accept that as part of the whole process. I just think all of us should be prepared to answer questions regardless of what our views are, and let people sort that out. But that's why I don't feel comfortable in saying, 'Let me tell you what this guy believes.' You know what? I don't know what he believes. Even if I knew what his church believes, I don't know that I can say what he believes until he expresses it

What Gov. Huckabee is telling Salon's Michael Scherer is that Romney's religion can be a criteria by which people judge him, and that he believes that Romney ought to be subjected to questions about the content of his religious faith -- questions that Huckabee asserts have not been asked before.

Now watch the ad a third time.

A stout defense of Huckabee would point out that, with the media so obsessed about Romney's religion, any mention of Huckabee of his own faith -- a faith which, by all accounts, is central to his politics and morality -- would be illegitimate. Clearly, Huckabee has every right to try to win over voters on account of his evangelical background. In doing so, he challenges the consensus view that certain attributes, like religion, ought not matter. Of course, Huckabee is saying, they matter, and to pretend otherwise is foolish.

Is Huckabee playing the Mormon card, even unwittingly? Hard to say. His campaign says absolutely not. And intent matters, of course. But this being a postmodern political world, so does reception: it depends on the extent to which the targets of his television ad are aware that Romney is Mormon and are prone to object to it.

Comments (151)

I think if Huckabee is going to open to scrutiny of his faith, then what's fair is fair...Romney should face the same scrutiny. When Bill O'Reilly recently grilled Huckabee by asking, "so you think that belief in Christ is the only way to Heaven?"...I thought to myself, "why shouldn't Romney face the same questions?"

The fact is, Mormonism is a cult religion, it is NOT Christianity, and if Romney wants to try and pass himself off as a Christian, then he should be open to scrutiny.

Oh grow up Chris...

You don't get to decide if I'm a Christian or not...and if you really think that Huckabee is the one under scrutiny for his religion and not Mitt then you need to wake up as well as grow up.

Huckabee spent yesterday preaching at two Baptist churches, and it barely made the last page of any papers. He spoke of God needing more soldiers in his army. Could you even imagine the reaction if Romney did the same?

Chris:

Before you go spouting off on your canned truisms about what Mormonism is or is not, please lay down a sufficiently reasoned foundation for your dogmatism.

Your comments shows perfectly the problem with the "mormon question": people refuse to speak about thing outside of the narrow box of one line mudslinging.

Right on Elbeau!! How dare people tell us that we are not Christians! There are many religions because there are many belief systems, obviously we do not all believe alike. Maybe we should look at how we act, rather than at what we say we are. How does a Christian act? Time to review the Constitution and the Freedom of Religion concept.

Mormonism was founded by occultist and treasure hunter Joseph Smith Jr. I t has nothing to do with Christianity other than borrowing some of Judiasm and Christianity's history in a vain attempt to legitimize itself.

Anyone who wants a real look at Mormonism should read John Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven"

Chris:

Even though you think you're Christian, I've decided that you are now a worshiper of hornytoads.

Cool...now I get to decide what other people believe. This is GREAT. Next I'll use my new powers to change all Islamic fundamentalists into Zoastrians.

Great to see these "holier than thou" rethugs destroying each other rather than gays/minorities in the name of Jesus.

These rethug morons talk God during the day but screw around with prostitutes and gays, and take bribes behind the closed doors.

Reality Check:

The question here is whether or not I get to decide what I believe, or if YOU get to decide what I believe. You guys are really missing the whole point.

I find it fascinating that other people are so presumptious as to tell me whether or not I am a Christian. Isn't there a basic tenet of Christianity something about Judge not...

Mormons can "claim" to be Christians, but the fact is, they've added canons to the Bible, they have added doctrine that goes against the teachings of Christ, etc. They believe that Satan & Christ were once "spirit brothers", that there are 3 levels of heaven: "celestial kingdom, terrestrial kingdome & telestial kingdom". There are distinct differences in the beliefs on salvation (the foundation of Christianity) between Christians and Mormons, the trinity, and the authority of the Bible. Christians believe that the Bible is THE authority, Mormons give it the least amount of authority in their church. Christians also don't believe in "spirit beings", or that anyone can become a "god" in the after life.

I respect your beliefs, but don't disrespect mine by trying to pass yourselves off as Christians. Just accept what you are, and what you believe. I don't see any Jews, Muslims or Christians trying to pass themselves off as another religion.

Now don't try to fool us Chris. If I say you worship horny toads then you don't get to disrespect my religion by saying you don't.

Huckabee is just stating the obvious: if you make a person's religious faith an important factor in evaluating his or her qualifications for political office, then every candidate for political office will need to answer detailed questions about their religious faith.

Of course maybe a person's religious faith should not be an important factor in evaluating his or her qualifications for political office. But that is not what many in today's GOP have been saying recently.

So is Huckabee "playing the Mormon card?" Not directly. But he is supporting the idea that such considerations should matter, and surely he is aware that including such considerations will affect Romney as much or more as anyone else.

Well said DTM.

If somebody wants to make a point about how a specific candidate's performance as President will be influenced by his religion, I'm fine with that. That argument lets all the candidates display their history and show whether or not it is a problem. But to go beyond that and decide that their personal beliefs should be evaluated in the voting booth is really out of line.

Oh but sir, or Madam, We should judge! If someone is going around doing and saying things like Jim Jones did a while back, if those followers had judged him as according to what God said, they would be alive today! We are to use our brains and judge the ones that are doing wrong and saying it is God's word. I guess we are supposed to leave the terrorist alone and let them destroy the "Unholy" the lowest of the lowest that share THEIR SPACE ON THIS PLANET! That's us babe! I don't think the things they believe in is right, and we should not let it take over the world. Like Communist, we must fight, or be fought!

I don't give a rip that the Huckster holds his view of religion above the freedom of Americans...well, maybe a little.

However, I would like to know how he reinvented himself on abortion;

On 2/12/95 an article Ralph Z. Harlow from the Washington Times wrote under the caption "Conservatives Hold Fire On Abortion" the Huckster said this:
"In the spirit of federalism, the proposed GOP revision also would replace the abortion amendment with a statement saying the issue should be left up to the individual state legislatures to deal with as each sees fit. 'That's exactly what we have looked for, and if it's left up to the states, more of them are going to put some restrictions on abortion,' Arkansas Lt. Gov. Mike Huckabee said in an interview after appearing on a conference panel yesterday."

On 4/ 2006 in an interview with John Hawkins on RightWing News the Huckster was talking the same talk: http://www.rightwingnews.com/interviews/huckabee.php

"It would please me because I think Roe v. Wade is based on a real stretch of Constitutional application — that somehow there is a greater privacy issue in the abortion concern — than there is a human life issue — and that the federal government should be making that decision as opposed to states making that decision. So, I’ve never felt that it was a legitimate manner in which to address this and, first of all, it should be left to the states, the 10th Amendment, but secondly, to somehow believe that the taking of an innocent, unborn human life is about privacy and not about that unborn life is ludicrous."

BUT then on 11/19/07;
Huckabee Rejects Letting States Decide Whether to Allow Abortions
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312107,00.html

"If morality is the point here, and if it’s right or wrong, not just a political question, then you can’t have 50 different versions of what’s right and what’s wrong."

"For those of us for whom this is a moral question, you can’t simply have 50 different versions of what’s right,"he said in an interview on Fox News Sunday."

Somebody want to explain to me how he can pretend to do this and then publicly whine about people who still stand on the position he USED to have while you give the con artist a free pass??

Funny that Mormons so deeply want to be called Christians...kinda like Romney wants everyone to think he's always been pro-choice, and anti-gay rights as well?

I think Mormons who demand that they be considered Christians may be a little insecure about their own faith.

Have any of you so called christians even met a Mormon? I have met tons of them and almost without exception they are the most christ like people i have ever met. they read scriptures daily, pray daily and try to do service daily. church isn't just once a week for them they live it. and their life long goal is to grow and be more like Jesus Christ. Mitt Romney has done this his whole life, granted maybe Huckabee has too but its almost like guiliani, hillary and others almost have it better than mitt for not even having religion.

I believe this article is trying to create something that isn't there. Gov. Huckabee is merely stating that everyone should be held under the same type of quesstioning. He is not playing the "Mormon Card...." This is something the media has created...Gov. Huckabee will continue to rise above all of the attempts for him to "go after" other candidates, aside from the real issues that concern the American people.

Chris,

Yes, we belive Christ and Lucifer (as well as all human beings) are spirit brothers.

Yes, we believe in three levels of heaven.

Yes, we believe in additional canon to the Bible

No, the bible is not the least authoritative.

Yes, we believe God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct beings, one in purpose.

Yes we believe that we can become as God is.

Please show where these are refuted in the Bible. For every verse you give, we can give one in support. You see, the reason there are so many christian faiths is because no one can agree on what the bible says or means. So to say the Bible is THE lone source for the word of God leaves you in the dark.

BTW, regarding the fact that "we can become Gods", this is the second most clear doctrine taught in the bible, just after the Atonement of Christ. There are biblical verses throughout the New Testament teaching this. (Be ye therefore Perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect; Ye are heirs of God and Joint heirs of Christ; etc, etc, etc).

What is sad is that most of the "Christians" are so pigeon holed in their beliefs. I would think that if one worships another and holds another to such great respect and admiration, that that person would seek to learn all that is available about that person. When another comes along and says, "I know you are a believer in Christ, I have a book that teaches more about Christ, about his ministry in another part of the world", that the follower of Christ would at the least read it objectively and seek to know the truth. Sadly, most people disregard the Book of Mormon because it is not the bible or their pastor said it was evil. There is no contradiction, it is indeed another testament of Jesus Christ.

I believe this article is trying to create something that isn't there. Gov. Huckabee is merely stating that everyone should be held under the same type of quesstioning. He is not playing the "Mormon Card...." This is something the media has created...Gov. Huckabee will continue to rise above all of the attempts for him to "go after" other candidates, aside from the real issues that concern the American people.

By the way, Mormons, don't get so upset when others call you "not Christian". We are not their type of Christian, so what? Who says they get to determine who Christ is? They can't even agree amongst themselves on the nature of God.

Finally, to give a political note, Religion is fair game in the election. Everything is fair game, it is politics. It is what it is.

Romney SHOULD be questioned about his faith. Mormonism is crazy!!!

Bearing false witness of another does not always mean a conscious choice to lie. It can be failing to find out what the facts are before telling a story about someone else. It can mean taking things out of context or without foundation. You have seen examples of this above. Most don't know enough about Mormons to comment yet they do. If someone wants to know about us we are glad to tell them.

Swint:

There is no where in the Bible that states there are 3 levels of heaven.

There is nothing to support "spirit beings" or that we're "infinite in nature" like God...only that we become like him in moral purity in heaven.

The Bible is the authority of Christianity, and is the final word, not a canon to be added 1800 years after the fact.

Christianity also holds belief in the Trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit are "of one substance", "three persons in one being", not 3 distinct beings, while Mormons reject the Trinity.

Mormons believe that the Holy Spirit is separate from God...Christians don't.

We also don't believe that God has a physical body, or that Christ was one of the "original spirit beings" that all humans used to be.

Christians believe in original sin, Mormons don't.

Christians don't believe in a second chance after death...Mormons believe in a second chance, during a period of "learning and preparation" after death.

Christians also believe that Heaven & Hell are eternal...Mormons believe that spirits go to the spirit world, undergo preparation, then rejoined with bodies in the resurrection, and that hell can be temporary if the person repents.

I have many Mormon friends, and they've tried to convince me that we're the same. I've proven to them time and time again that Mormonism and Christianity are vastly different on many different levels.

It is OK for Governor Huckabee to disagree with Mormons. He can say so in his commercials if he likes. His staff can acknowledge that the commercials are aimed at collecting people who have similar religious leanings. Mormons usually don't take offense at such things. What we do take offense at is someone else's attempts at defining us or telling others what we believe and don't believe. Baptists don't know what we believe. There are many who think they do but they don't. So I don't take offense when Governor Huckabee says his religious views are different and he doesn't know what Governor Romney believes. At least he is honest, which 99% of the anti-Mormon commentators I read are not. In fact I will say 100% of the anti-Mormon commentators are wrong. Otherwise they would be including the Mormon side of the issue too which they don't.

Funny that Huckabee makes the silly claim that he has been asked more about his faith than Romney. Nice try. Romney's faith has been scrutinized from day one. The questions have been asked and answered a hundred times.

Marc, thanks for the interesting blog post. I think a Romney/Huckabee ticket would be the most fascinating.

Here is another flipflop by the flipflopper-in-chief..

Romney-appointed judge frees murderer who then kills again

Romney is desperately trying to short-circuit his own little Willy Horton controversy before it gets started, calling on the judge the resign. But the fact remains that Mitt Romney is a huge liberal, even by Massachusetts standards, and he appointed judges in his liberal image (not that I think liberal judges are pro-murder, but whatever the judge's reasoning, Romney appointed this judge because he approved of her reasoning - he can't now say "oops" after two more people are murdered because of his best (aka poor) judgment - how many more life-threatening "oopses" can America afford from yet another incompetent commander in chief?) That's what politicians do - they appoint judges who reflect their views. Romney is now trying to run away screaming from the judge he appointed only 20 months ago. Just like he's running away from his previous lifelong positions on guns, gays, abortion and more. Just add one more notch to the list of Mitt Romney death-bed conversions - and in this case, it's a literal death-bed conversion. Romney will be forced to talk about this judge the rest of his campaign, well, that is, the Republicans will force Romney to talk about this judge. The Democrats will find it too boorish to talk about this case, just like they find it silly to even consider talking about the right to privacy and so much more.

Dave,

You see, all of those things that I stated are supported in the Bible. Just like the things doctrines you believe in are in the bible. Therein lies the problem. If the Bible were clear on doctrines then there would not be thousands of different Christian denominations in the world. There would be only a couple.

The best example is the Trinity v. Godhead argument. I can understand why mainstream Christianty thinks that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are the exact same being, because there are verses in the Bible support it. But there are just as many verses in the Bible that support the LDS claim that they are three distinct and separate beings yet one in purpose. The strongest of these is Christ's intercessory prayer in John 17. There just isn't clarity. Do you know what separates the LDS belief from yours? We have the Bible to back us up AND additional evidence. When Joseph Smith had his first vision he saw both God and Jesus Christ. This settled the matter immediately. Now you can choose to not believe it, that's fine. But regarding accuracy of claim you have less of an argument than me, you have the Bible. I have the Bible and more evidence. My "argument" would win in a court of law (so to speak) every time.

So my point isn't about proving Mormons to be Christian or to even claim Mormons are right. My point is, is that "Christianity" has no more right or legitimacy to claim what is or isn't true or correct or Christian than anyother religion. You only have one source for truth, at least we have more to back up what the Bible says.

abc,

You lose all credibility. If you have an issue with Romney's judicial appointment, say so. But to say he this is a flip-flop with such animosity makes you look like a hack. The justice issue is no where near a flip-flop. Grow up.

Yeah! How DARE their sect of tribal religious superstition claim the artifacts they dug up out of the soil are more authentically the word of the big Magic Friend in the Sky than OUR Bronze Age tribal religious superstition's artifacts! Our superstition is better than their superstition, after all we've been more successful at torturing, colonizing and dominating peoples into believing them (or pretending to until their kids do for real) over the centuries (in the name of God and Love of course) than anyone else! Nyah! Nyah!! God is greatest! So there!!

(What century is it again? Does this country even WANT to survive?)

I try not to be angry when these people use their own narrow minded and bigoted definition to say catagorically who is christian and who is not, as if they had that kind of authority. I try to remember that these bigoted veiws were probably instilled in them by their bigoted pastors or parents while growing up. The Bible very clearly teaches us how to recognize a true follower of Christ. "By their fruits ye shall know them." Mormons as a whole are more christian than most of the so-called christians out there. And btw, Mitt Romney talks about his faith all the time. It is not his role however get into deep discusions about the doctrines of the church. He is not the Church spokesman and it has nothing to do with the capacity he is trying to fill.

Concerning Mitt Romney - all we are asking for is honesty and transparancy . Romney is the one who is happy to play the religious card saying words to the effect that America should have a man of faith as its President . Fine why doesn't he just be open and tell the American people what he means by this . Please Mr Romney tell us you believe Jesus is the Devil's brother , tell us that humanity originated on a planet near a star called Kolob and that God the Father is married ( actually there are plenty of Mormon leaders who have said that God is a Polygamist ) and tell us that the Mormon view of salvation is one of progression to becoming a god . American people think of it you have a man who wishes to be President and he believes one day he will become a god .

I am a British citizen so I dont have a vote , but I tell you it would be a catastrophe for your country and indeed the world if a Mormon was elected President . As a conservative and a Christian I wish every success to Mike Huckabee

Andrew Price:

Give me a break. What are you seriously afraid he would do as president based on his faith? Is he going to make a special american holiday favoring Kolob? Oh brother.

Now he's a certified flip-flopper and there may be plenty of reasons not to vote for Mitt...but his religion has not dominated his politics and you have no reason to believe that will suddenly change.

Mr Elbeau - I am afraid you have just got to grasp the nettle that many people , not just Christians find Mormonism deeply repugnant - can you comprehend that the idea that Jesus is the Devil's brother will concern many people . Even if you dont understand it , Mitt Romney does and that is why he will not speak about his real belief system . Why should the American people be kept ignorant . Here are two more questions for Mr Romney . When you were a mature young man in the 1970's did you dissent from : 1 the outragious views of the Mormon leadership concerning Black people eg Mormon Apostle Mark Peterson in The Way Of Perfection , said "Our Negro brethren ...notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness" pp101-2 1935 Edition . 2 The horrible practice of baptizing dead Jewish holocaust victims in the Mormon Temlples ?

Dave:
Let's set some things straight.

The word trinity appears nowhere in the Bible, not once. The word was created by the scholars brought together by Emperor Constantine 325 years after Christ, the nature God was not even agreed on by all present at the First Council of Nicaea. BTW the word "Godhead" scorned by many Christians actually occurs in the Bible. In Luke 2:49, Christ says that he is about His Father's business. If they were one in substance, wouldn't he be about his own business?

On another subject, Isaiah 14:12 states "How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"
What does this tell you about Satan's position in heaven before the world was?

Let's see, next topic, levels of Heaven.
2 Cor. 12:2
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Three Heavens? Who would have thought that the Bible itself speaks of three Heavens?

Many of the views you have expressed came from 1800 disagreeing scholars commissioned by Constantine I to define Christianity. The Bible is indeed Authoritative in proclaiming the Word of God, but who's interpretation of the Bible? Fourth Century Scholars? Just because they defined Christianity in a certain way, doesn't mean that all religions that fall in any way outside of this creed ore not Christians. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Please don't try to tell me whom I do or do not follow.

Christian pastors are "bigoted" because they follow the scripture in the Bible...and identify those who bear false witness?

Funny that Mormons would call anyone bigoted, given the stance that Mormonism took towards blacks up until the past 25 years.

Christianity is not achieved through works, we're saved by grace through faith. Works are an act of obedience.

The Mormon baptism for the dead thing pretty much goes against the entire foundation of Christianity.

Andrew Price: I try to make it a rule not to delve into religious tenets if I'm in a political blog...but I'm going to give in here and address this a little.

You ask "can you comprehend that the idea that Jesus is the Devil's brother will concern many people"? I don't mind if it concerns people...I do mind if you make it a political argument, because it's not.

Perhaps we should question Huckabee because Elijah sent two bears to tear apart 42 children that were making fun of his bald spot (see 1st Kings). If Huckabee doesn't make a speech explaining that, then nobody should vote for him.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS. Get a grip.

Now, in all of this I'm not saying that NOTHING about Mitt's religion affects his politics. The argument that some here are making about racism has political merit if you find a way to apply it to Mitt...but seriously, let's have a discussion about how religion would actually AFFECT the candidate's ability to serve our country instead of just throwing mud and trying to scare people about us freakish little cultists.

Give me a break.

Romney the flip-flopper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_w9pquznG4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9IJUkYUbvI&feature=related

Supported aborting unborn children, lied about accepting an endorsement from a pro-life group, supported gay marriage, and he ripped Ronald Reagan. Now he's trying to make us think he is just like Ronald Reagan, strongly opposes abortion and gay marriage.

Chris:

HOOOOORRRRAAAAYYYY!!!!!

You made a political argument in this blog! I knew you had it in you somewhere.

No arguments about the flip-flopper...it's pretty blatant.

Religion should stay out of political discourse. Period. The Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves every time a presidential candidate touts their faith. Huckabee, while not personally himself, has played the Mormon card. On numerous occasions his staff has cowardly leaked anti-Mormon comments. You can't hide behind your staff, Huckabee. You've played the card.

Elbau,

The minute mormons "dug up" (so to speak) my relatives to "baptize" them into the mormon religion, they any credibility to claim ownership of real religion. Mormons are "freakish cultists", no question. If you would like to apologize for this horrific behavior, I may accept your apology, but I doubt it. And, that act alone certainly does give people the right to question what how mitt's religion will affect his actions, if elected.

There's nothing to be said for voters get to decide what's important? For the record I'm some one who has had Mormon friends (moved) and has no problem with a Mormon president (although I strongly object to a Romney presidency)

With that said, a third of Americans say they would have trouble voting for a Mormon. Isn't it their perogative to decide what qualifies someone or disqualifies someone for the highest office in the land?

With regards to whether Mormons are Christian, well, Mormons should call themselves "Original Christians." The early Christian fathers did not teach Trinity, they came about around 300 AD during the Nicene Council. Original Christian teach was that the Godhead are three separate beings, supporting the Mormon Christian. The argument of not adding to the Bible is idiotic. Scripture is merely writings of prophets. The Bible is just a bunch of writings slapped together. It's also out of order. So, if archaeologists found more writings of Isiah, would evangelicals scream "It's not scripture! It's not in my bible!" Please, how close minded is that. In addition, deification was taught by the early Christian fathers, as well as multiple levels of heaven. So fine, Chris, Reality Check, and you other bigots, don't call Mormons Christians. How about "Original Christians". I like that.

Mr Elbeau - Since when has Mormonism seperated religion from government ? May I remind you Joseph Smith was going to stand for President , his followers ie the coucil of 70 declared him king on earth and he was also Mayor of Nauvoo .

Are you asking any rational objective person to accept the notion that when Brigham Young ruled Utah for over 25 years that he did not do so as a theocrat ?

Mormonism has a world view and believes that it ie The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints the only true Church on the face of the earth is the best vehicle of governance .

Are you seriously asking people to believe that
Utah is not governed with the principle [ as much as they can dare get away with ] of what is best and advantageous for the LDS Church ?

Mr Elbeau , if you are Mormon , you know this very well and you are not being open and honest , in other words you are being exactly like Mitt Romney.
However if you are genuinely ignorant of the nature of Mormonism then I hope my comments and the comments of others will have informed you .

AmandaRuth: Like others here, you make no real connection between your dislike of our religion and the reason it would affect somebody's performance as president. As far as the doctrine of baptisms for the dead goes...we don't "dig up" anybody, we are baptized in place of somebody and we do not believe the baptism has any affect unless that person accepts it. And then there's the comparisons with so many "mainstream" Christian religions that say that a baby who dies before baptism is burning in hell?...yeah...we're the ones who are kooked out here.

But no matter what you think about all this...HOW DOES IT APPLY TO A SPECIFIC CANDIDATE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT? It doesn't. It's a religious argument and you just don't like us as a group.

Zach: Nobody here is arguing that anybody should not be given the right to choose who to vote for. Nobody tells anybody they can't vote for a candidate based on their race. They only point out that it is wrong and should be rejected by the people. It is not a question of civil rights, it is a question of civil principles.


The authors, whose writings became The New Testament,(and there were many authors), wrote to varied audiences. Some wrote to the Jews, some wrote to the Gentiles, some wrote to the Christians. When writing to the Christians, often understanding of topic was assumed since the congregrations knew the details of what was being shared. For instance, the word Baptism could be used without going into details on what Baptism was. A Christian congregation would know. Being Christitan, they would have received the ordinance of Baptism for themselves. When talking to the Gentiles much more care was taken to teach the principles of the gospel in full so that there would be understanding. When writing to the Jews there was often doctrine that had to be restored because it had been lost through apostasy.

Many Christians today read these verses in the Book of Revelation and wonder at individuals who think that there could ever be more scripture given:
THE REVELATION
OF ST JOHN THE DIVINE
CHAPTER 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now if you do a bit of research you will find that the Bible did not come to us as one book, written in sequence. The letters and writings of the Apostles were compiled, into what we call the Bible, years after the Apostles died. The Book of Revelation was not necessarily the last book written. The Book of Revelation was at a latter date added to the writings of other Apostles and complied to become the Bible. The words John wrote about "not adding to or taking away from" where in connection with his writings only.

The Jews might have a case against the Christians for the Old Testament states in DEUTERONOMY
CHAPTER 12
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

I think mankind is very presumptuous to believe in God and then try and dictate to God what He can and cannot do. (He will not speak to man anymore. He has given us His final word. He will not appear to mankind anymore etc. He will not send prophets to the earth anymore.) If God choses to reveal more, He will and He won't ask permission from anyone. Questions to ponder: Does God not reveal himself anymore because He can't? Has He ceased to care about us thus He doesn't reveal himself? Maybe we don't need Him any more? If the answers to these questions are yes...then the Bible is probably enough for any person. If the answers are no....then God is very much the same, yesterday, today, and forever and we should look for His established patterns; such as sending prophets, restoring truths and priesthood authority that have been lost through apostasy, as well as visions, dreams, revelations, miracles and so forth.

Andrew Price: "King on earth eh?...I thought I'd heard them all...but that's a new one. Since you assault Joseph Smith, why don't I quote him for you: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates; in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law". Yeah...we're out for a theocracy.

As far as the Utah thing...Rocky Anderson is (?still?) the mayor of Salt Lake City (Mormon Central) and he is quite decidedly anti-mormon. Salt Lake is less than 50% Mormon and Utah as a whole is only 60% Mormon. Let's compare that with some southern states and see who owns the theocracy in this country.

If you want to judge candidates based on the history of their religion, I can provide links to many european museums displaying the torture devices that "mainstream Christianity" used to use in the conversion process.

Of course, I still don't see how this relates to any particular candidate running for office right now.

fyi. huck is paying for signatures in virginia to get on the ballot

http://tooconservative.com/?p=1676

so who is buying votes now. on the other hand, i heard off the record that romney has gathere 15,000 signatures in va from a huge grassroots volunteer effort.

i also heard that fred's campaign is having a hard time gathering enough signatures to get on the ballot there. he may not make it.

These comments and contention are one reason why we have so many religions and why religion and politics are bad bedfellows.

Many times, unfortunately, religion brings out the worse in us, not the best.

The bottom line for all who say they follow Christ is to get along. Find common ground. Stop bickering. We really can have different views, and ... we really are allowed to have different views.

Stop the Christian bashing --- we'd have a TON of denominations to trash if we continue this route.


IT IS FAR BETTER TO FIND REASONS TO UNITE, RATHER THAN TO FIND REASONS TO DIVIDE.

I think Huckabee's comment shows a lot of class.

He is clearly a devout Christian who is unwilling to judge Mitt Romney's faith or his faith's tenets. He's instead chosen to allow Romney to answer, or not answer, as he sees fit.

On another note, demanding that Romney answer questions about his membership to "a crazy Mormon cult founded by convicted fraudster Joseph Smith" is a bit loaded, don't you think?

Perhaps we might ask Giuliani if he espouses the ideals of "that crazy cult that kills Jews and burned Galileo to death for not agreeing that the earth was the center of the universe."

My point? All religions have some elements of "crazy" in them. Romney was raised Mormon, his beliefs are second nature to him. Yes, some of the details surrounding Mormonism sound a bit wacky, but the ethics inspired by the religion seem in perfect line with mainstream Christianity.

Cheers to Huckabee for his sense of fairness and class. Cheers to Romney for not wasting time on irrelevant religious issues. Boos to small-minded xenophobes who would persecute either of these fine men for standing behind their religious heritage.

How has Huckabee ever "played the Mormon card"??? There's no evidence to suggest that his staff "leaked" anything out, either...and to claim that they have is absurd.

Put any of them on the stage, one-on-one, in a debate with Huckabee, and he slices and dices them all up. This is precisely why Fred Thompson called for "Lincoln-Douglas style debates", and then immediately back tracked when Huckabee challenged him. It's also why Romney backed out of the December 4th debate in Iowa. He can't stop Huckabee's momentum in Iowa, and he knew Huckabee would once again win another debate. That's cowardly...it should be put out there for the people of Iowa to decide. If you can't hang...get out of the race.

We are all pawns, and we are only fighting fellow Americans.

IT IS FAR BETTER TO FIND REASONS TO UNITE, RATHER THAN TO FIND REASONS TO DIVIDE

I have to take a step back here and ask a few of you if you can honestly even hear yourselves.

You have Mitt Romney running for president. He is WIDE open to political attacks on many fronts...but instead of confronting him on things that are relevent, so many people are running around yelling the sky is falling because he's a Mormon.

I am an American Mormon. You may think I'm wierd, kooky, or whatever...but I'm no threat to your country. Mormons have been serving in high levels of the US government for well over a century now. A man who later became our Prophet even served in the presidential cabinet, overseeing feeding a very hungry Europe right after WWII. He didn't attach copies of the Book of Mormon to the potatoes he had flown in.

We're as American as you. There's over 6 million of us in the US, and we're not known as particularly dangerous folk. Is there any way you can take a step back and view me as a worthy American?


1 Corinthians 15
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

(Mention of Baptism for the Dead in the New Testament? Where was Paul the Apostle going with this?)

Here's a little homework for all you debating the Christian question...

1) What is the definition of a Christian?
a) a person who belives in the concept of God developed during the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.

b) a person who belives in the concept of God developed during the First Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D.

c) a person who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ

Answer: C (see Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16)

2) Which of the following are Christians?

a) Protestants
b) Evangelicals
c) Catholics
d) Mormons
e) All of the above

Answer: Based on the definition above, all of the above are following their own interpretation of the teachings of Christ.

Why can't all you Christians get along?

ANTI-MORMON alert........

Andrew Price has an ax to grind the size of Montana. Hey Andy - I suppose having Harry Reid (D-Nevada) as the Senate Majority Leader, and a Mormon, has really blown your bigoted theory of a Mormon cabal and their inability to govern. Are you an anti-Semite or does it just stop with Mormons? Having your invective bigotry and hate spew over the internet from England is not only laughable, it kills your argument and allows people to see into your black heart.

Yes, Andy....we're taking over the world.....Marie Osmond will be appointed as the next Speaker of the House....

Leave our country and it's religions alone. How is the state-run church working over there by the way?

Are 7th Day Adventists Christian? Are Anglicans Christian? Are Baptists considered to be Christian? What about members of the Ukrainian Orthodox religion? There are a lot of diferent religions in the world that claim to believe in a Jesus Christ that lived 2000 years ago, but yet have very different ideas concerning the particulars of their beliefs. So what is the benchmark? Are all religions being compared to the beliefs of the Roman Catholic church? And if that is the case, all religions that are not Catholic should therefore be considered to be not Christian? To say one church that preaches of Christ is not Christian compared to another church that teaches of Christ differently seems pure speculation and based on complete random arbitration. The last I checked, "Christian" wasn't a church.

As for Romney - I'm very sure he would answer any questions about his religion someone asked sincerely. Like everyone else, no one likes to be criticized or belittled because of one's beliefs.

is this the same andrew price cult member who likes to spend his time abuseing mormons and has been critasised by a british judge

Mr Elbeau - Politics is the science or theory of government I ask you again , since when has Mormonism separated religion from government ?
All you seem to do is to keep throwing in red herrings and insult .

Some of us are trying to get to the bottom of Mormonism and Mitt Romney which seems to be most important given the fact the USA is the most important country in the world .

As it is getting on for midnight in the UK you will forgive me I need to go to bed , but one last question for the Romney apologists .
When there were protests in the 1970s in Provo and Salt Lake City concerning the Mormon view on race and their treatment of black people - what was Mitt Romney saying and doing ? Remember Romney was a mature young man at the time

I suppose if Lieberman calls himself a democrat, Mormons can call themselves Christians. Personally, I find arguments about semantics boring and unproductive.

I'm a Mormon. I served a mission and I baptized a lot of people. I payed my own way for two years. Every member has a responsibility in the church and no one gets paid. Members pay tithing of 10 percent. Roughly two chapels are built every day. At any given time there are roughly 50,000 missionaries spread throughout the world and 250,000 people are baptized every year who will pay 10 percent of their income to the churhc....The point is that I can see why the mainstream Christian leaders encourage their congregations into believing Mormons are cultists. It is because the The Church of Jesus Christ (Mormons) have had greater success in obtaining converts, are more organized, and our lay clergy are a threat to their way of life. Mega churches, big homes, fancy cars, and 6 figure incomes have become the norm for smooth talking preachers who have their congregations hang on their every word...These people who claim that I or any other Mormon wishes to be included into the mainstream are fooling themselves, they give themselves too much credit. You will not hear in any sermon given by a Mormon anything critical of another faith. Mormon motivation is not driven by hatred for other churches. It's principles and teachings, which are centered in Christ, stand on their own. It does not need the kindling of hatred for another church to keep it's fire burning.

Religous tolerance is a virtue.

That goes for Christians, Muslims, Mormons and the like. Attacking or degrading someone else's religion is position of moral weakness not strength.

Lets jus look at the candidates:

Mitt is interesting. He is clean cut with family values but unfortunately he is a politician's politician. I mean I don't think he would make much of an impact in office. He won't be as bad as the current adminstration by any stretch but he does sway to popularity.

I am very concerned about our future and we need to make changes and I mean BIG ones. I have been a long time Republican voter and I am pulling for Ron Paul.

He like Mitt seems very ethical but everyone knows Paul does what he says he will do. I just don't see that with any other candidate. Maybe it is time we take a risk. Mitt is safer but Paul is more dynamic. I feel with all the economic news coming out we are in a bad place and we are literally going to have to rethink govt. to get out.

I don't know if Huckabee is playing the Mormon card, but I believe that he is going to win the election for Giuliani a liberal conservative at best. If Huckabee does well in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina....then Giuliani will carry the day. Huckabee will divide the true conservative vote. Funny that Giuliani the social liberal of the GOP and Huckabee the fishcal liberal of the GOP could together take down the only truly conservative candidate Mitt Romney. Mitt's a real fighter and if people listen with ears to hear....they will vote for Mitt.

RE: Mormons=Christian?

"The Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:
32. Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

RE: Mormons=Christians?

"The Book of Mormon," 2 Nephi 33:
10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

mamaen, very good words. It is sad that so much ignorance is spread by those of little knowledge about another's religion. If they would only listen, they could be edified with truth.

I don't think Mike is "playing the Mormon card" He is simply saying who HE is. And what he says about himself is true; and it has been true for a long time; and I for one very much get the feeling that it will continue to be true for a long time as well. I find this transparency and consistency and candor very refreshing. Thanks Mike!

This has been all interesting to read. It has made me wonder why those who call themselves Christians and say others are not, are so mean-spirited. The spirit of Christ is not in their message. I've heard it time and time again.
I've read material and heard ministers give out false information about the Mormon church. Why are they so afraid? Is is because they will lose their income? I don't get it. I refuse to be part of any religion that goes about condemning another religion. Contention is not from God. OH and an interesting comment was made about Jesus and the Devil being brothers. You know, I can believe that, because I personally have a brother that has chosen a very wicked course and has encouraged others to help him in his wicked deeds. Sounds reasonable to me.

Mitt Romney is the topic here. Do we want a President that will help us in the world? Do we want to feel secure that we have a true leader who loves the country and wants to do all he can to help get it back on track? Do we want someone who can abide by the constitution? Or do we want someone who caters to others and worries about his own political ambitions. Only we as individuals can decide for ourselves. No one is going to persuade us by their subtle or unsubtle bashings. We can all make up our own minds. We will have a chance to go into a private electorial booth and make the decision that we feel is right. I am grateful for the privilege to vote by my own conscience. Let's allow others to do the same and stop all this contention.

This has been all interesting to read. It has made me wonder why those who call themselves Christians and say others are not, are so mean-spirited. The spirit of Christ is not in their message. I've heard it time and time again.
I've read material and heard ministers give out false information about the Mormon church. Why are they so afraid? Is is because they will lose their income? I don't get it. I refuse to be part of any religion that goes about condemning another religion. Contention is not from God. OH and an interesting comment was made about Jesus and the Devil being brothers. You know, I can believe that, because I personally have a brother that has chosen a very wicked course and has encouraged others to help him in his wicked deeds. Sounds reasonable to me.

Mitt Romney is the topic here. Do we want a President that will help us in the world? Do we want to feel secure that we have a true leader who loves the country and wants to do all he can to help get it back on track? Do we want someone who can abide by the constitution? Or do we want someone who caters to others and worries about his own political ambitions. Only we as individuals can decide for ourselves. No one is going to persuade us by their subtle or unsubtle bashings. We can all make up our own minds. We will have a chance to go into a private electorial booth and make the decision that we feel is right. I am grateful for the privilege to vote by my own conscience. Let's allow others to do the same and stop all this contention.

After all the scandals that have rocked politics and have plagued both parties over the past few decades I have decided one factor I care about more than religion is integrity. I'll take a Mormon with integrity over a charlatan christian everyday of the week.

Huckabee led a scandal laden administration. He was cited for violating campaign finance rules FIVE TIMES. Among his boneheaded and dishonest actions was to pay his babysitter with campaign cash. He finished out his administration by destroying government property when he smashed the governor's office's computer harddrives. On his way out the door he loaded up a moving van and took everything out of he governor's mansion that wasn't nailed down--art, rugs etc that were not his to take. (I am not making this up).

Romney led a scandal free administration. In a state that is bluer than blue he avoided scandal at every turn because he is a man of integrity. Romney's appointee's similarly avoided scandal and investigation in every respect. Romney left the state and the governor's house more flush than when he came in office. He is not a perfect candidate but the Dems have nothing on him--no bones in the closet at all.

Scandals distract you from your focus. Scandals stop you from pulling off your political agenda. They hurt Clinton and they hurt Bush. I want a President that is above the fray. I don't care how many sermons Huckabee made at churches or hotel conference centers last week. I just hope the hotel asked for the towels and bathrobe back.

What do Mormons (nickname for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not a proper name) believe?

The following is from the Wentworth Letter, which Joseph Smith sent in response to a request from a newspaper in Chicago near the end of his life, prior to his assassination by a mob in Carthage, Illinois:

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying