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What Mitt Romney Did

07 Dec 2007 09:15 am

Let's pause and take a moment to appreciate what Mitt Romney has done today for his campaign. Looking presidential, speaking at a lectern with the presidential seal on it, speaking before the largest press corps ever assembled to hear him speak, speaking just 28 days before the Iowa caucuses, speaking -- reading -- a text that he wrote, giving a complex and nuanced argument about faith in America -- he may accomplished the improbable: giving a speech that actually moves hearts and moves, a speech that actually persuades, a speech that may have succeeded in moving the public's perception of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from outside the circle of "normal" to a few lengths inside it.

With this speech, Romney may have mainstreamed Mormonism and injected a fresh dollop of energy into his presidential campaign.

To be sure, the notion that theology and doctrine don't matter in politics is just plain wrong. It has mattered and has always mattered; of course voters consider belief -- and not just belief as a vessel, but belief as a vessel full of specific messages -- when they vote for politicians. Where government refuses to impose religious tests, voters always have. And religion -- not faith, but religion -- informs how politicians vote on issues and how voters feel about them. Opposition to same-sex marriage or support of same-sex marriages isn't explicitly rational; it's a gut judgment to which we append our rational arguments. More often that not, if you consider yourself pro-life, you cannot explain your beliefs in the public square without specific reference to a tenet of your religion. Nor should you be forced to. Evangelicals, Catholics and conservative Jews; liberal Catholics, liberal Christians, secular humanists, have formed coalitions and found common cause on certain issues. To the ire of small-c-catholics, they've sublimated doctrine to consensus. But most believers aren't so orthodox and the principle of pluralism is enough to paper over differences so long as the differences aren't that profound, so long as there is social pressure to tolerate.

For most non-Mormons, the social pressure to tolerate the quirks and vicissitudes of that faith has been absent. Pre-Romney. Post-Romney, that pressure is there. Opponents of the LDS church ought to be forced to respond to Romney's argument and explain why the LDS church ought to remain outside the circle of tolerance.

If Romney's speech hit a false note, it was only in its conflicted view about the wisdom of bracketing the content of one's religious views when making political arguments. Again, this is plainly impossible and it's not how humans work out these things. But maybe Romney was making a normative statement: we "ought" to bracket those parts of our belief system that aren't consonant with the common civic creed. Philosophically, two ideas are in tension. Where do we draw the line? How do we preserve the contours of our religion without permission -- or social consent -- to argue vociferously on behalf of that religion in public?

Back to politics. Universal praise (from Dobson, Colson, Dick Land, bloggers). Excellent television coverage. Excellent visuals. Unadulterated, unfiltered Mitt Romney, direct to camera. Romney aides are ecstatic.

Comments (64)

Romney may say that no one from the Mormon Church will have any say in Washington, but how about Romney's obligations to adhere to the doctrines and covenants of the Mormon faith? How does he intend to navigate those requirements? Can he serve both without the one influencing the conduct of the other? And will Americans even know whether or not he is?

Romney was supposed to explain his mormon faith to the people and he did not do a sh*t about it in his speech. As a matter of fact he gave a very general speech. As someone said on TV it was exactly opposite of JFK speech.

Marc, did you really write this article? It looks like it is written by Romney campaign. May be one o Romney sons wrote it? or Marc have you been adopted by Romney's?

I don't understand your question, "how aout Romney's obligations to adher to the doctrines and covenants of the Mormon faith?" You obviously didn't listen to the speech, the speech wasn't about the differences between the Mormon Church and others beliefs, it was about the fact that as Americans, what faith you are shouldn't be a marker on if you should lead the most powerful and greatest country in the world. What exact doctrinal difference are you worried about that will change him from being an outstanding president. He will go to church on Sunday, he will not drink alcohol at the social outings, he won't swear with his cabinit buddies, he won't bring in sexual scandals with interns, he will promote the family first in his decisions, he will put judges that are pro life into office. What exactly is it that is in the Mormon beliefs that you think disqualifies him or would change him into something that wouldn't make a good president. I don't understand your thinking. I for one would be so happy to have a man that reflects the character and values that he has in the oval office, not to metion his resume of education, abilities and inherent ability to work day and night, bringing people together to solve problems and make broken things work again, i,e. Washington. Think about what you are saying before you post. Please. Go Mitt, you have my vote 100%.

Rusty, who ever said he was supposed to explain his mormon faith. There is not place for that in the presidential campaign and to do so would of been totally wrong, read the 6th Amendment. He talked about what he was supposed to talk about, the importance of religion (any religion) being part of our country. How the symphony of religions is what has made this such a wonderful country to live in. If you or any others want to know the different beleifs of the Mormon religion, go to www.lds.org and it explains them all. But that is not part of nor should it ever be part of a presidential campaign. Nobody is asking any of the others to explain the differences about thier religions, why, becuase it doesn't belong in the race, they will even say that. Focus on the positives, he is a man of outstanding character with family values that we all wish we could have backed up by the history of his own family. Go Mitt, stay with what you are doing!! You are a first class act.

G. Foote:

I agree with you.

Romney doesn't have to explain his faith anymore than Marc Ambinder has to explain his own.

Romney may be running for office, but Marc has a public forum where he tries to influence others opinions -- so what makes him the authority?

Just because Marc's faith may be more commonplace doesn't mean it is more correct.


I'll yell in unison with you:

Go Mitt, you have my vote 100%!!!!

The Romney campaign says it would be wrong to talk about theology and then Mitt makes a clear statement of the tiny part of Mormon theology that mainstream Christians would agree with. I don't care about theology. I care about history and science. Joseph Smith used magical stones to search for buried treasure on people's land in the 1830's, then an Angel showed him Golden Plates with the Book of Mormon on them. He "translated" it with magical stones while talking through his hat with his wife taking dictation. It says that ancient Hebrews came to America in a boat and became the ancestors of the American Indians. Archeology, linguistics and DNA all disprove this story and I don't trust the JUDGEMENT of anyone who claims to believe it. That person cannot be trusted to negotiate with Putin or Ahmadinizad -- both of them infinitely more clever than the 1830's conman who started the HOAX known as Mormonism.

I would like to respond to the first comment.

"Romney may say that no one from the Mormon Church will have any say in Washington, but how about Romney's obligations to adhere to the doctrines and covenants of the Mormon faith? How does he intend to navigate those requirements? Can he serve both without the one influencing the conduct of the other?"

This is how my faith affects my life as a citizen of this country and if I were to become the President of the United States I imagine it would affect my life in a similar way.

Quoted from the Mormon's 13th Article of Faith

"We believe in being honest, true, chaste, beneveloent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men....if there is anything virtuous, lovely, of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and SUSTAINING THE LAW." (12th Article of Faith)

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." (9th Article of Faith)

As a member of my church it is my responsibility to teach and watch over 65 plus children every Sunday for 2 hourse. This is what we teach them. Along side with principals such as service to others, Christlike love for all people, making family a priority, and trying to pattern our lives after the example of Jesus Christ. Every lesson, every topic, every discussion in our meetings is focused on the Savior Jesus Christ.

If these qualitites make us bad people, unable to lead, guide, and be an example to others, then banish us all from the country!!!

Naperville, Il

There are many members of the House and Senate that are Mormons. Plus many others that serve in local and State positions that are the same. Each of them are individuals that are serving as individuals, not as "Mormons."

If a person wants to know more about the individual doctrines and understand more about the specifics of the Mormon religion, go to www.mormon.org and study away, or stop one of the missionaries on the street and setup an appointment. Don't base your understanding of this faith on "hearsay", go to the source, and use your own ability to know right from wrong to judge it.

Mitt Romney didn't need to be the messenger of this type of information, he did what he needed to do: he let Americans know that he is a man of faith, dignity and honor. Someone that they don't need to fear.

From the comments about this issue, it sounds like there are lots of people that really don't understand what their own religions teach about many subjects.... Hopefully this experience will be a catalyst for many to review the foundations and histories of their own faith and we can grow as a Nation as a result of it.

moronpolitics

My, my. I can tell that you are clueless regarding the Mormon religion. How would it feel to have someone do the same to yours?

If you'd like to know what the "Mormon" church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) believes, go to : www.mormon.org

If you want to know about the Jewish faith, you don't ask a "Hitler"

Universal praise??? Huh???

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/12/romneys_terrible_speech.php

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/self-parody-wat.html

There isn't even get universal praise from the other bloggers at your own publication. Indeed, Yglesias noted that he thought more highly of Romney before this absurd disaster of a speech.

I think if you liked Romney before you still like him, if you didn't like him you didn't hear anything to change your mind. That is apparently the take from the Iowa pundits as well.

The Media wants it both ways:
what a bunch of bs-Fact is Huckabee was being asked Question after question about his faith from the media-(WAY more bias against him than than Romney due to his past experience as a pastor)who carws that he had 10 1/2 years experience as a Governor.) This was before he ran the ad to acknowledge this is who I am-"Christian Leader" so as not to dodge it and hit it head on...you CANNOT win with these media types...he was doing well in the polls long before his ad or Romneys interestingly timed speeech-(when his poll numbers were going down). Obviously secular media types are feeding the huckabee/Romney fight. This speech by Romney needed to be given in some ways regardless of who gave it. Someone needed to address the growing "religion" of secularism. For this I salute Mr. Romney. The High wall seperationists types have no problem when people mix God's name in with all the curses of the day but anything else is offensive.
Fact is Huckabee has said "I don't care if you are an atheist, as long as you are true to who you are...and not trying to be who you are not..I am who I am"...

Let's see here.

A. Harry Reid
B. Mitt Romney

Which do you think the church is dictating to? They happen to be polar opposites, if the church was running things they would have the same political agendas would they not? The Mormon church is less involved in politics than any church in the United States so I dont se why people are so terrified to death.

I wonder how the Mormon connection to WWASPS and Romney's connection to it will influence his presidency.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/121088.html

Article VI of the constitution is being twisted- it says the GOVERNMENT CANNOTmake a religious test to run for office. NOT THE VOTER!!!!The VOTER CAN(and should) use ANY criteria they want when determining who they will cast their vote for!!!. People use Irreligious criteria just as much as people use Religious criteria and that is their right in a democratic society!!!! Get over yourselves and stop TWISTING the constitution!!!!!

when running for the highest officein the land, as a voter, you can take into account the candidates view on ANYTHING & EVERYTHING...this is the right of democratic Citizens...and it cuts both ways.

And religion -- not faith, but religion -- informs how politicians vote on issues and how voters feel about them.

Except Romney's faith doesn't seem to have impacted his policy decisions much, oddly enough. He's twisted and bent however he needed to in order to get and stay elected. He'll do it in the primaries, and he'll do it in the general. Whatever he has to do, his public and private personas are separate. Should he get elected, let's hope it stays that way.

If you'd like to know what the "Mormon" church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) believes, go to : www.mormon.org

While his description is/was crass, at the base there's nothing inaccurate about it.

Mormons may not like it (my neighbors certainly don't), but describing what happened as using magic rocks to translate ancient Egyptian that wasn't really Egyptian, and describing stories about pre Columbian America that have turned out to be completely inaccurate is pretty spot on.

NATE: To answer your question- the reason people are suspicious is because of the "unknown factor of the Mormon church. It's secretive, and highly organized structure. Chistianity is much more diverse...open..& loosely structured ..& no secret rituals. Curiosity about the unknown is a natural human trait. People have a right to be curious when they are not dealt with upfront-ie. of course Mitt says he believes Jesus is the son of God- Mormons believe EVERYONE, INCUDING SATAN IS THE SON OF GOD...question was mitt trying to pass himself off as an evangelical for political purposes to get their votes..hmmm...this is why people are "terrified"as you say(which I think is a little too strong of a word. People are concerned and curious and do not like to be deceived.

Well, moronpolitics, why (given your reasoning) should we elect a religious person at all? I mean, seriously, who can believe the parting of the Red Sea? Sounds ridiculous! And Jesus bringing people back from the dead? Crazy. And scientific proof about creation? There's none. So why apply such a ridiculous test to Mormonism? The concept of faith - something that can't be proven - is the same no matter what religion.

Believe it or not - I'm not a Romney supporter. (Go Obama!) But to think he can't handle negotiations after such a track record of business expertise and degrees from Harvard, is ludicrous.

Tim Kelley:

No reason to be deceived.

If you'd like to know what the "Mormon" church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) believes, go to : www.mormon.org

Get information from the right sources (not anti sources) and they will tell you the doctrine.

Religion is obviously a subject of much discord --

they crucified Jesus because of it.

I think Romney did a fine job in his speech. He said it as it was - that US history had a religous dimension to it, and that some of our great presidents and founders of the nation are men of faith.

I am Mormon muself - I would seriously consider voting for Mormon, not because he is Mormon, but because what he could do for the country.

You mean Religionists crucified Jesus because he claimed to be God in the Flesh, EQUAL with the Father- Gospel of John 10:30---this is why they crucified him ..don't kid yourself.

CS Lewis said either Jesus was a lunatic, Liar, or LORD. His claims don't leave us with many options. God let's us decide-free will.

Romney made his Mormon faith fair game after he said he wouldn't permit Muslims to be appointed to the cabinet because of their religion.

If we are to look at Muslims' religious beliefs before placing them in the presidential cabinet, then why not look at a Mormon's beliefs before placing him in the Oval Office?

Especially when that Mormon is running as a right wing religious candidate, someone who is promising to inject his religion into our politics. And he calls Muslim's radical.

To paraphrase an argument so popular on the original-intent right, "Did the Founding Fathers really intend to hand the scepter of power to a Mormon?" Romney can't have it both ways. Either religion in politics matters or it doesn't. Romney says it does matter, but only when someone else's religion is the subject of scrutiny. His religion only matters when he intends to jam it down our throats after he's elected. Then again, both ways is the way Romney lies it best. First pro-gay, then anti-gay. First pro-gun, then anti-gun. First pro-choice, then pro-life. And now he's flip-flopping on whether the religion of a nominee is a relevant factor in their employment.

BTW, its absurd that it is coming from Romney who belongs to a faith that barely represents 2% of the population, compared to the 1.5% in America who are Muslims.

The serial flip-flopper Romney has no substance beyond his hair gel.

Ambinder says, "To be sure, the notion that theology and doctrine don't matter in politics is just plain wrong."

And Romney says, "I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my fathers – I will be true to them and to my beliefs."

If so American voters should know Romney as a Mormon believes that Jesus is the brother of the Devil and he also believes we all originate from a planet near a star called Kolob. That is just a sample of his shocking views.

As a Christian I agree with the points raised by Huckabee about faith.

I am tired of reading ignorant or misleading statements saying that Romney "wouldn't permit Muslims to be appointed to the cabinet."

What he said is that he didn't "have to"--meaning that he wouldn't have a quota system for filling cabinet positions reserving one or more for Muslims AND that it was not necessary to have a Muslim in the cabinet to negotiate with Muslim countries.

However, he would not disqualify a Muslim from serving on the cabinet if that person was most qualified for the job.

Mitt Romney couldn't have said it better. His intelligence and presence are so far above any of his competitors that he should win the nomination on those aspects alone. Mitt can bring politcians and problem-solvers together and tackle all the issues faces by Americans. A vote for Mitt also gives Washington a chance to start making sound business decisions that will lead America to a stronger place - the place that America belongs.

Agree with this editorial-

Still, there was no escaping the reality of the moment. Mr. Romney was not there to defend freedom of religion, or to champion the indisputable notion that belief in God and religious observance are longstanding parts of American life. He was trying to persuade Christian fundamentalists in the Republican Party, who do want to impose their faith on the Oval Office, that he is sufficiently Christian for them to support his bid for the Republican nomination. No matter how dignified he looked, and how many times he quoted the founding fathers, he could not disguise that sad fact.

Mr. Romney tried to cloak himself in the memory of John F. Kennedy, who had to defend his Catholicism in the 1960 campaign. But Mr. Kennedy had the moral courage to do so in front of an audience of Southern Baptist leaders and to declare: “I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute.”

Agree with this editorial-

Still, there was no escaping the reality of the moment. Mr. Romney was not there to defend freedom of religion, or to champion the indisputable notion that belief in God and religious observance are longstanding parts of American life. He was trying to persuade Christian fundamentalists in the Republican Party, who do want to impose their faith on the Oval Office, that he is sufficiently Christian for them to support his bid for the Republican nomination. No matter how dignified he looked, and how many times he quoted the founding fathers, he could not disguise that sad fact.

Mr. Romney tried to cloak himself in the memory of John F. Kennedy, who had to defend his Catholicism in the 1960 campaign. But Mr. Kennedy had the moral courage to do so in front of an audience of Southern Baptist leaders and to declare: “I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute.”

Agree with this editorial-

Still, there was no escaping the reality of the moment. Mr. Romney was not there to defend freedom of religion, or to champion the indisputable notion that belief in God and religious observance are longstanding parts of American life. He was trying to persuade Christian fundamentalists in the Republican Party, who do want to impose their faith on the Oval Office, that he is sufficiently Christian for them to support his bid for the Republican nomination. No matter how dignified he looked, and how many times he quoted the founding fathers, he could not disguise that sad fact.

Mr. Romney tried to cloak himself in the memory of John F. Kennedy, who had to defend his Catholicism in the 1960 campaign. But Mr. Kennedy had the moral courage to do so in front of an audience of Southern Baptist leaders and to declare: “I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute.”

"explain why the LDS church ought to remain outside the circle of tolerance."

Ok. Because the church of LDS doesnt practice tolerance

like when they baptised holocaust victims into their faith...

or when they said african americans were evil.

or because they think that I, as an atheist, have no place in america.

Tolerance is like respect. If you don't give it, dont expect to get it.

Marc, please explain your religion and faith. Even though you are not a candidate, it would be good to understand your relgious values as you make it a business to question and evaluate other people's religion and faith. Let us see how qualified you are about this matter. I have lots of questions about your faith and relgious values.

Mr. Romney did a wonderful speech. I have seen Mormons living side-by-side with other relgious people. They are good neighbors.

Boy so much hate, hate, hate.

Is that what religion is doing to all of you?

Freaktown,

The LDS religion teach tolerance towards all religions and peoples. You will be hard pressed to find a Mormon that fits your description.

I agree with Marc and I hope that Romeny's speech not only lifts his stature among the electorate but that it lifts the level of all speeches candidates offer to the electorate.

A few responses to comments above:

Valerie nelson, 12/7 @ 9:55 am
If these qualitites make us bad people, unable to lead, guide, and be an example to others, then banish us all from the country!!!
.
As a descendant of Mormon pioneers who were banished from the country -- my ggg-grandmother died on the way to Deseret and lies in an unmarked grave somewhere near the Green River -- please be careful about what you ask for!
.
.
freaktown, 12/7 @ 12:59
the church of LDS doesnt practice tolerance
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like when they baptised holocaust victims into their faith...

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We believe baptism can only be done while someone's spirit is in their body: the baptism we perform for someone who died without baptism (1 Cor 15:29) lets them *choose* as a spirit whether to accept it or not because they may accept Christ's gospel in the spirit world (1 Pet 3:18-19, 4:6). By offering this choice to them, we show greater tolerance as we *invite* them to join us, knowing the choice remains theirs. No other church I know shows as much tolerance, still *offering* to include people who were not Christians in this life.
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or when they said african americans were evil.
.
Hunnnh??? The LDS Church *never* said African-Americans, or anybody else, were evil. At times, different groups did not hold the priesthood -- as a descendant of northern Europeans, my people could not hold the priesthood (cf. Levites in OT, or Paul's dream telling him to share the gospel with non-Jews) for almost all the time that Africans could not. 1852-1978 is the only time in the world's history that I'm sure my people could hold the priesthood and Blacks could not. I don't rail against the Church for this. The LDS Church ordained Black members to the priesthood before 1852. Here's one example: http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3027
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or because they think that I, as an atheist, have no place in america.
.
This one really stumps me! I've been LDS my whole 50+ years and not only have I never heard the Church say/teach/believe this, your comment is the first time I've heard anyone suggest that it is an LDS belief.

"The Book of Mormon teaches that the colored races are descendants of the evil children of Laman and Lemuel, who impiously warred against the good children of Nephi and received their pigmented skin as punishment."

you were saying manaen?

Hey Justin, According to the latest DNA study by Noah Rosenberg of U. of Michigan, not a Mormon... Middle Eastern Haplotypes appear most frequently in the Mayans. Exactly where LDS would expect it to appear. In Y Chromosone studies, which is father to father etc. 36 percent of American Indians tested have Middle Eastern DNA. The possibility is real that Middle Eastern peoples migrated to the Americas. And concerning the Reformed Egyptian you mocked, did it occur to you that the Children of Israel were in Egypt for 400 years, and Joseph, his two sons, and his Eqyptian wife were bi-lingual. At a time when Hebrew was not even a written language, that is why Hebrew was written in an Egyptian script. Thus reformed Egyptian. (there is no evidence in todays Egyptians that the Israelistes were ever even there) The X haplotype (X1 and X 2) one of those is exclusively from the Middle East. And concerning Joseph Smiths Translation of the Ancient Record, Do a Google search for Tlatilco Seal. Found in Central America. The same figures showed up on Smiths Anthon Transcripts. Better do your home work.

A few interesting facts. DNA studies by REAL population genetisists are moving faster than the Mormon antagonists can keep up with.

By the way, Mitt hit a Grandslam. He has my vote.

freaktown, 12/7 @ 3:24pm

Thanks for the opportunity to explain this. True, The Book of Mormon teaches that a darker skin was given to descendants of Laman & Lemuel for their disobedience, but your comment omits the main lesson: that because of their *greater overall righteousness*, these people would survive and be blessed but the descendants of Nephi would be destroyed eventually because of their *greater disobedience*. Jarom, the grand-nephew Nephi, understood this and wrote, "and as these things are written for the intent of the benefit of our brethren the Lamanites" (Jarom 1:2).

Here are The Book of Mormon's words:

Jacob 3:
5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.
6 And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people.
7 Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands; and their husbands and their wives love their children; and their unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers; wherefore, how much better are you than they, in the sight of your great Creator?
8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.
9 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.
10 Wherefore, ye shall remember your children, how that ye have grieved their hearts because of the example that ye have set before them; and also, remember that ye may, because of your filthiness, bring your children unto destruction, and their sins be heaped upon your heads at the last day.
11 O my brethren, hearken unto my words; arouse the faculties of your souls; shake yourselves that ye may awake from the slumber of death; and loose yourselves from the pains of hell that ye may not become angels to the devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.
12 And now I, Jacob, spake many more things unto the people of Nephi, warning them against fornication and lasciviousness, and every kind of sin, telling them the awful consequences of them.
.
(before we get there, Jacob 2:30 gives the justification for polygamy *in select instances* like 12 sons of Jacob/Israel coming from 4 mothers and 1800’s in Utah:
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.)

Go manaen!
I think the Book of Mormon's teachings about race are extremely progressive. It teaches that although poor teachings can be passed down from generation to generation as the genetic markers that determine skin pigment, each individual has the capacity to make their own decisions about right or wrong. Often in the history recounted by the Book of Mormon, the fair skinned Nephites are rebuked as unrighteous while the darker skinned lamanites are held up as examples of righteousness. A strong example of this principle is the story of a lamanite prophet being called to preach to a wicked nephite city as God reaches out to all of His children.

Thanks, Marc. The check is in the mail.

RE the Book of Mormon's teachings about race are extremely progressive

The Book of Mormon offers this general invitation to all peoples:

2 Nephi 26:
23 For behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you that the Lord God worketh not in darkness.
24 He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation.
25 Behold, doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.
26 Behold, hath he commanded any that they should depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.
27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.
28 Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

RE: Justin's comment 12/7 @ 10:36 am
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to translate ancient Egyptian that wasn't really Egyptian
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65 YEARS AGO, the LDS Church published in the official magazine of the time, "The Improvement Era," photographic comparisons of the characters Joseph Smith copied from the golden plates with verified Egyptian writing from other sources.

Here's a link, see especially the side-by-side comparisons in the 4th through 7th pages of this article ("Anthon Transcrip" = Jos. Smith's copy):
http://www.shields-research.org/Scriptures/BoM/Anthon_Transcript-Crowley/1942_02-IE.PDF

All three articles from the series can be linked from here:
http://www.shields-research.org/Scriptures/BoM/Anthon_Transcript-Crowley/Anthon_Transcript-Crowley.htm

manaen

Don't be hatin'

If you really want to know what we believe, rather than argue and search out anti-Mormon literature, go to:
www.mormon.org

I suppose that our doctrine would not interest you since it does not give you the same thrill as being anti. Sensationlism that anti-Mormon literature generates is almost like an adrenaline to some, whereas, reading what we believe from the right sources (www.mormon.org) and searching it out for yourself -- the Bible, etc, may be a bit humdrum for those who do not want to put forth this kind of honest and constructive effort.

If you were interested in learning about the Jewish faith, you would not ask a "Hitler".

The View of Romney from Spain [John O'Sullivan]

All the controversy over Romney's speech was fresh to me when I checked in the Corner. I'm on the road at present in Spain where the Spanish translation of my book — still available in English on Amazon and at all good bookstores, an ideal Christmas present, entitled The President, the Pope and the Prime Minister for those with short memories — is to be published next Monday. I read the criticisms on “The Corner” before the speech. So when I read Romney's actual words, I was perhaps more impressed than I might have been by coming upon them cold.


They seemed to me to be strong, eloquent, and basically correct. The passage about Europe's splendid but empty cathedrals hit home to me as it would to most tourists visiting Europe. Many of the large cathedrals are treated essentially as museums, the smaller churches as concert halls for chamber music. To be sure there has been some revival in the last year or two — Poles are rejuvenating the Catholic Church in Britain; West Indians are filling new vast Protestant churches. Some Christian activity is taking place in homes, small study circles, and outside the public view. But the mainstream Protestant churches and the Catholic Church very often cringe before a secularist establishment in those countries whose culture they essentially created. And one reason among several for this is that the churches had become used to relying on the secular power for their influence (and in Germany, money) and are disabled now that the secular power is hostile to them.

When I turned to the criticisms of Romney, including those in the Corner, they seemed forced and slightly odd. He hadn't reached out to atheists and agnostics? Was there some irony here I hadn't detected?

He hadn't reached out to Episcopalians either — do you think either group will be really put out by this? When did conservatives think that a speech had to tick off every box in an anti-discrimination ledger? This was a speech on religious belief and politics and it mentioned what needed to be mentioned. (The idea of reaching out to Hitch is particularly daft. Hitch has made perfectly clear that he regards all religions as superstitious relics of mankind's adolescence. Any religious person who reached out to him is likely to be told that he will be a welcome ally when he has abandoned his irrationality. Give Hitch an olive branch and he's quite likely to beat you about the head with it.) Even the editors, God bless them, while generally praising Romney, have reservations about his his statement that "freedom requires religion." No, he didn't flesh it out with arguments and illustrations. He probably thought he didn't need to since this is a point made by almost every conservative writer from Burke onwards. One example: Tom Bethell argued years ago that socialism (i.e., systematic unfreedom) is what fills the vacuum left by the decay of belief in God and country. You can work out why for yourself quite easily.

Etc., etc.,

So I am glad to see that the wider world — as reported in later posts — seems to have a higher and less jaundiced view of the Romney performance. Since I've only read the speech and not seen how it was delivered, I can't really judge whether it has given his general presidential prospects a strong boost. But it should have disposed of the idea that Romney's Mormonism is a bar to the office.

"Even the editors, God bless them, while generally praising Romney, have reservations about his his statement that 'freedom requires religion.' No, he didn't flesh it out with arguments and illustrations. He probably thought he didn't need to since this is a point made by almost every conservative writer from Burke onwards."

Nonsense. There have been plenty of conservative and libertarian atheists and agnostics (Mencken and Ayn Rand, for example) and plenty of Christian Socialists. See Heather Mac Donald's column at http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2006/10/post_33.html


Mitt Romney - An Introduction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eKIm6zrhp0&NR=1

This crazy banter back and forth proves one thing and one thing only: religion is man-made, and Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have survived over the years AS major religions because of specific political gambles made for political and other power-centric reasons by leaders in positions of simultaneous POLITICAL/religious power. To dictate any political policy/personal LIFE policy by these religions' guidelines is batshit stupid. ATTN: Your God Is DEAD. If there is a hell, I'll see you there (props to Trent Reznor).

Kurt:

Sorry you feel this way, but not everyone feels the way you do. If you don't like the banter, don't read it.

I'm a bit suprized how angry you seem, unless it's just that you're getting sick of the hate and bickering involved. If so, I agree with you.

Romney raises bar in debate over religion

http://www.charlotte.com/409/story/396148.html

What would be interesting would be to have Huckabee win the republican nomination and loose the general election by 9 votes - Utah 5, Idaho 4. Would the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vote for Hillary (whom most despise) or someone who has been "Un-Christian" about their religion?

Just a quick question, is the atlantic not a left-wing based site? I found it and thought it was, but reading these blogs I think I might have been wrong. Just wanted to follow the election a bit, as I live in Spain and don't get much info from the states that's not pretty right-wing.
Kurt, maybe you should consider europe as an alternative continent- you seem about as angry about religion as I used to be before moving here to be with my husband. Europeans seem to be a bit looser about religion and as a result don't harp on the negative, while enjoying the good bits. While I'm not a Christion, now I can appreciate the good things it has to offer.

Kudos to Marc for an excellent read. We haven't seen any polling that took place entirely after Mitt's speech, so we don't know what political effect it will have. Speaking for myself, however, I can definitely say that I feel blessed to have seen him give it. It made feel prouder to be an American than I have felt in a long time. I fully agree with, of all people, Chris Matthews when he observed that for the first time this campaign, we have seen greatness.

>Opponents of the LDS church ought to be forced to respond to Romney's argument and explain why the LDS church ought to remain outside the circle of tolerance.

Does anyone honestly believe that, had the faith of Mitt Romney's father been Hinduism or Shinto or Zoroastrianism that he wouldn't be just as devout a follower of those religions? Sure, people convert, but for the most part these deeply held faiths so many people profess have been handed down to them in roughly the same manner as their eye color or their allegiance to a professional sports franchise--by their parents and their geography.

There's a reason other people's religions don't make sense to us: from an objective perspective, they are, especially in their creation myths, but often in their ruminations on the fate of their founding figures and the afterlife, preposterous. What Sarah says is true--Joseph Smith divining the book of Mormon through the use of magical stones is no more ridiculous than my own Jewish tradition's insistence that Moses parted the Red Sea with a staff that channeled the power of god or that Shiva mistakenly decapitated his son and replaced his head with that of an elephant.

But who gets really hammered in the discussion Romney started, huh? It's people like me, non-believers who have, in addition to rejecting the faith of every other religion have taken an additional step in rejecting the one we were brought up with. I know Romney was only condemning those people who would banish religion from the public sphere altogether, but even the less-strident secular among us don't seem to fit in to his vision of America, even though I think many atheists and agnostics do a better job passing Romney's test for fitness for office, that the believe in "the equality of human kind, the obligation to serve one another and a steadfast commitment to liberty," than many religious people do.

I won't have the option of voting for a candidate who shares my faithlessness this year, but I hardly think I can be faulted for searching for one who doesn't hold me in contempt for it. I don't think Mitt Romney is that guy.

Any person who actually subscribes to the theory that mankind is the highest intelligence in the Universe is outside my ‘circle of tolerance’. You and your Democrat friends and allies (the so-called Born Again), whose tolerance barely extends beyond themselves, are reaching critical mass.

You really should get over the magic underwear – no one is forced to wear them – they remind Mormons who made a commitment to god to remember their covenants. Wow … spooky! Any resemblance between what you think you know and what is reality is a gulf so wide the Grand Canyon would be dwarfed by comparison.

Matt - It was a speech on FAITH. What part of "Faith in America", the title, did you not get? Was it the word in the title called "FAITH"? Self-described atheists have no faith in anything greater than themselves (or big brained scientists). I am sick and tired of this lame reasoning. I hope people who think the way you do can understand, in some sort of feeble, simple minded way, that Romney didn't leave you out. You are among the "secular" folks Romney was talking about.

Dear friends, Let me make a promise to you. Your treatment of the Romney candidacy will be a omen for how you are treated in the future. Do wrong, and you will regret it. In addition, Romney is the only credible, viable candidate who will defend traditional values. A vote for Huckabee is a vote for Giuliani, which is a vote for abortion, which is vote for gay marriage and other social ills. Treat Governor Romney well. He's your only standard-bearer. This I promise.

Yes, I understand the notion of faith in something one cannot see or prove, and how dare, how DARE you presume to tell me what I do or do not have faith in? How dare you presume to know me or my inner life because I decline to keep it private.

Here's the thing: I have no problem with individuals having faith or professing it, but I do think things are a little wacky when I'm a member of one of the most reviled groups in the country because I choose not to believe in what is plainly unbelievable. And talk about feeble and simple-minded, VSteven, yeah--I understand the word secular and knew it was applied to me. I was the other extreme, the other bad guy, along with Bin Laden, so I guess neither he nor I should feel left out. But, as far as being left out of the community of legitimate Americans Mitt defined (as opposed to being left out of his speech--happy to spell it out for you), when Mitt Romney says that religion and freedom are inseparable, you bet he's leaving me and people like me out. Might as well call the atheist an enemy of freedom. We don't believe in religion and religion is essential to freedom, ipso facto...

And no, I don't think it's small-minded to be troubled by an individual's willingness to believe things that are, to me, plainly and demonstrably false. Mike Huckabee believes the Earth is 6000 years old. The President believes that this idea, couched in the pseudo-scientific language of "Intelligent Design," deserves equal treatment in our public schools. How you cannot have a problem with this is truly beyond me.

Faith is personal, and deeply meaningful to the faithful--I understand this, but because it is so personal, I do not believe that it can be the basis for public policy. The founders didn't either, despite the rhetorical sleight-of-hand attempted by Romney when he implied that the founders gave us "in God we trust" and "one nation, under God" (these were added during the McCarthy Era).

I do not wish to see religion eradicated (and good luck to me if I did--I have noticed that I'm in a pretty small minority), nor to I fail to recognize its value to individuals and communities, but I believe that our country has been well-served by keeping religion and government comfortably separated. Honestly--it isn't good for either to be too close to the other. The founders knew that a ruler with the mantle of heaven could easily become the worst sort of tyrant and that the power to favor one religion was the power to crush others. Early presidents like Washington, Jefferson, and even Romney's oft-quoted Adams were not atheists, (though it would be fair to call Jefferson a deist), but they were wise enough, on several occasions, in their public utterances and their private correspondence, to *explicitly* include those without a religious faith in the definition of who could be a good American.

If only all of today's candidates (and other Americans) would be so gracious, fair, reasonable and wise.

Correction: That should read "because I decline to make it public."

Look, VSteven, that came out harsher than I meant for it to, and Ann Landers always said "never go to bed mad," so I wanted to add this:

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was belittling you. I didn't mean to. I don't think you're stupid to believe what you believe, or that anyone else is, either, unless what they believe leads them to be hateful or hurtful to anyone else. There have been times in my life personally when I have seen religion as painfully divisive. I'll never forget the cold and unwelcoming way my grandmother treated my high-school girlfriend, and later, the woman who would become my wife, just because she wasn't a Jew. All those hurts have been long-forgiven, I'm happy to say, but perhaps things like this left me suspicious of what seemed to me like the artificial and irrational barriers that religion seemed to erect between us. I continue to be suspicious of this, and it's probably a lot of why I have become, essentially, an atheist. I am happy as one. I don't feel spiritually bereft. If you've found spiritual satisfaction, I would be mean and wrong to begrudge you.

But I do find it hurtful and bewildering when people say or strongly imply that a good American is a religious American. Think about what that must mean to someone like me: absent holy scripture, the founding principles of this country--the ones that created a safe haven from oppression for my grandparents and countless others--are my creed and always have been. Being part of that American community is, in addition to my family, just about the most important thing in my life. The suggestion that I'm somehow the enemy of those principles because I choose not to be a religious believer is hurtful, and probably explains my defensive reaction.

So, please accept my apology for any insults I may have sent your way, and my good wishes. We will almost certainly not vote the same way this year; that's fine. I just hope whoever is elected president recognizes that both of us can be good Americans.

What a relief, the Mormons will not need to knock on our doors now that they know we're ALL Christians.They know we have the Bible, read it, believe it and they can read and believe the Book of Mormon!What a great solution to the differences of the past, having to shun them for their strange doctrines, history and secretiveness, and underware style. And I reallly don't want to have to be baptized all over again by one of their "apostles!"

Matt Weiss: Thank you for your very considerate post. I get pretty riled up whenever I read demeaning comments about anyone’s religious belief. Your apology was not expected and is welcomed with all my heart. Even though what you said was not as nearly vicious as most derogatory comments I’ve read, it didn’t add anything useful to an otherwise thoughtful and enlightening discourse.

I too have need for asking for your forgiveness. I implied, though unintentionally, that people who have chosen to withdraw their support for organized religion (or religion of any kind, as defined by common usage of the term ‘religion) are somehow un-American, un-patriotic, or unrighteous (as that term is generally defined).

It is productive to have one’s views challenged when they are demonstrably in error. Thank you for doing that for me. I will readjust my position accordingly and remember that others cannot see into my mind and know that my intent was not to sound holier than thou (a really annoying attitude).

Robert Newman

And you don't think that Rev Huckabee is trying to force the Baptist religion down our throats?

There are many denomiations and beliefs, amazing huh?

From Robert Newman's ignorance and falsehoods alone regarding the "Mormon" church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), I think it's necessary to post a website for those who are interested in knowing what the Mormon's teach -- and know when lies and hatred are being used. Being a Mormon myself, I would said that 100% of what he has said is false.

Either he is ignorant/indoctrinated, or he prefers to lie.

The Mormon church is one of the fasting growning churches, so it appears that many agree with the teaching. Review the link and you will see our beliefs, and that we are also Christians.

www.mormon.org

If you want to learn about the Jewish faith, you do not ask a "Hitler".

I just want to congratulate Matt Weiss for his defense of all us "non-believers". It does stick in the craw at times, 'specially during X-Mas.

I also want to ask all the haters (you know who you are) to check yourselves. I was raised Baptist. You're all throwing some serious stones at this man and his LDS brethren. Aren't you forgetting your place? If the Mormon church is a problem, it's not yours. It's GOD's. I think "HE" can handle it.

I had a little epiphany today. Bigotry, is sometimes a child of ignorance. It also can be born of jealousy. Could it be that the Mormons are hated not for what they believe, but how the live? That community isn't perfect, but they could teach the other Christians a thing or two about living "as a Christian". I've known quite a few of them and I am more than proud to call them friends. If Mitt Romney is anything like my friends, he gets my vote twice.

P.S. for those who care. I black. I'm a veteran. I voted for Reagan and Bill Clinton. I don't believe in God. I believe faith is important. I believe the Constitution is more.