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Democratic Debate Thoughts

05 Jan 2008 10:38 pm

Iowa nice replaced by New Hampshire ice? Naw.

Fireworks did not pop; differences were laid out politely, for the most part; there was little interrupting and even some friendly joshing between Clinton and Obama.

Obama had a broader voter focus than Clinton. She wants – and needs – Democrats to turn out; he wants, and needs, independents AND Democrats to turn out for him on Tuesday.

Iowa victor Obama had a target on his back, but he’s acquired a Kevlar vest as a frontrunner.
Like Clinton tonight, he was unflappable. Voters at these late days tend to favor the calm, cool, collected candidates who don’t sweat under pressure, who don’t stutter or seem flustered. He patiently rebutted charges about health care, his fip-flops, his uniqueness as a change agent.

Some of the rebuttals seemed effective, some didn’t.

Clinton seemed to be trying to do two things. One is to try and pry away voters who want change and like Obama but who are concerned about his experience. If just enough of those voters switch to her, she could win New Hampshire. The other was to try and blot out the halo that’s surrounded Obama ever since he won Iowa. The messages are a little paradoxical: he’s just like one of us Democrats (who supported single payer at one point) but .. at the same time,

Hillary Clinton is the Democratic agent of change. I think Clinton handled the substance of her
offensive fairly well. She did not hector Obama or inject unduly extraneous adjectives; and perhaps she’ll succeed in getting reporters and voters to start asking Obama a little more about his record. At best, the headline Clinton gets out of the debate is that she questions Obama’s qualifications… so long as the headline isn’t “Clinton on the defensive” or “Flailing Clinton

Assails Obama,” then she left the museum in the same condition it was when she entered. Clinton’s theme was accountability: “I think it’s important that we’re all held accountable.” Obama, she said, voted in favor of a 2005 energy bill larded with special interest subsidies. And she made this argument: “Words are not action. As beautifully presented and passionately felt, they are not action. What we need to do is to translate thought into action and feeling into reality.” She also got to make an argument that works for her but has been overshadowed a bit: being the first woman president is great.

Richardson had his best night; passionate statements on Iraq and the economy; on how “Washington bickering” leaves all the problem-solving to the governors; the format allowed him plenty of time. He may be leagues behind the frontrunner, but if this were the Iowa caucuses and second choices mattered, he’d be peachy.

No demerits on style, but I found it hard to pay attention to John Edwards. Maybe it’s the New Hampshire orientation and the fact that the economy has been transformed here and that, unadorned populism doesn’t work as well here, or maybe it’s a function of my having assumed the press’s desire to winnow this race, but Edwards’s shtick seemed kind of shtick and as comfortable as a wet sock. A sock that got wet wading through the snow and ice in Iowa and, at the end of a long journey, needs to be laundered.

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Comments (79)

This is the best you can do to spin it in Clinton's favor? I'll admit, you got a tough job and alot of nerve, but come on. You, sir, are insulting the intelligence of all of us when you make comments like, "Hillary Clinton is the Democratic agent of change. I think Clinton handled the substance of her
offensive fairly well." The least you could do is admit she got mad and attempt something like "oh, it made her look strong blah blah blah." You might want to just sit out the rest of the primary season, pal.

Will the fireworks in the Republican debate play out in anybody's favor? I'm thinking that it could work towards keeping things at the status quo by overshadowing anything that happens with the dems.

So, anything that John Edwards says is to be discounted simply because of the "press's desire to winnow this race"?

What about the desires of the voters who are interested in what Edwards says? Aren't those the folks whom the press is supposed to serve? But I guess that doesn't matter when the views of voters get in the way of the press's preferred storyline?

Really, Marc, that remark is shameful.


Mark-

You are (have been) clearly pro-Hillary. That is pretty obvious. Perhaps you can try to have an open mind. She is definitely not a change agent and most of America knows that. Are you on the Clintonland payroll?

At least Andrew Sullivan openly admits his allegiance, Mark.

Who the hell is Mark Ambinder anyway and how did he become a pundit and get this page? One thing for sure...he ain't no Josh Marshall, Matthew Yglesias, Kevin Drum or Andrew Sullivan.

Mark Halperin's grades at Time.com:

Obama A-
Edwards: B+
Clinton: B
Richardson: B-

Clearly he is a bit more unbiased than Mr. Ambinder.

Clinton rocked tonight.

She made a cogent argument of how experience is necessary to bring about real change.

I'm just not believing your take on Edwards. But perhaps democratic voters will not prefer a candidate who is clearly committed to taking on corporate power. It will be a pity, but Kevin Phillips has pointed out that the democratic party has a habit of this until its back is against the wall because of major economic meltdowns and gross disparities between rich and poor (which are growing of course). I like to see commitment and passion in a candidate, but it may turn others off. I guess coming polls and the vote next Tuesday will tell the tale.

"Like Clinton tonight, he was unflappable."

You think Clinton was unflappable? Dude, did you watch the debate with the sound off?

More Baghdad Bob analysis, I am afraid.

Although I plan on voting for Barack Obama in the New York Democratic Primary, I thought John Edwards performed much better than Hillary Clinton. While his constant sob stories about people in unfortunate situations does get old after a while, Clinton's claimed ownership of her husband's budgetary accomplishments, as well as her soon to be well-publicized tirade, pushed her back into third place in this debate, just as she landed in Iowa.

It looks like Mark Penn instructed Hillary to take out the knives tonight. Three times she tried to elevate the discussion into a shouting match - and three times she was rebuked.

I understand that Hillary is worried... she has good reason to be. But what is it today... the nice Hillary...then the attack dog Hillary... then, as the polls dictate, the sweet sincere Hillary ? Can't this person be genuine and more than poll driven ?

Barack Obama for President of the United States of America.

Clinton unflappable? You call losing her temper being unflappable? No one watching the debate would accept your version of what happened as reality.

Boy, I'm so disappointed.

Clinton totally screwed it tonight. After that devastating loss in Iowa, I was looking for something to reaffirm my support for her. I knew I would get it tonight.

She just lost her cool and made a fool of herself. Now, no one will really pay attention to everything else she said. This makes me really mad.

She definitely was not unflappable and did not look Presidential. Draw the curtains Mrs. Clinton

This was a GREAT performance by Hillary. She was in charge, she was on fire and she was in total command of the facts and of the interchange.

And Hillary made the most important case of the night: that electing the first woman President represents a huge change.

Her performance completely dwarfed Obama and Edwards. (I don't count Richardson for much of anything.) Obama looked like a little schoolboy being reprimanded by the teacher.

And what is it with Obama's stuttering the moment he gets a question? Isn't he supposed to be an orator with an enchanting rhethorical flow or something?

Brilliant performance by Clinton. This will help her tremendously with the NH voters.

No demerits on style, but I found it hard to pay attention to John Edwards. Maybe it’s the New Hampshire orientation and the fact that the economy has been transformed here and that, unadorned populism doesn’t work as well here, or maybe it’s a function of my having assumed the press’s desire to winnow this race, but Edwards’s shtick seemed kind of shtick and as comfortable as a wet sock. A sock that got wet wading through the snow and ice in Iowa and, at the end of a long journey, needs to be laundered.

And, Ambinder auditions for a role in Mean Girls, Part II.

JoeCHI and DemAC must be on crack. Hillary lost it and EARLY. When she wasn't speaking and the camera was on her, she looked haggard. It was not a good way to recover because many people once they saw her get screechy just turned it off for her. Now I know why the campaign is telling reporters they are looking forward to Feb. 5.

Senator Clinton: We don't need to be raising the false hopes of our country about what can be delivered

She has such confidence in all of us.

Can you imagine having to listen to her for 4 years? She sounded like scorned woman whose husband just cheated on her for the last time. Enough of the Clinton drama.

Please, I hate that Edwards is being knocked for staying on message. This makes the assumption that everyone has heard his message, they have not.

We have, we've been following this for much longer. He's staying on his message and what his personal mission is as a Presidential Candidate. What's wrong with being consistent?

Hillary's BIGGEST problem is that when she attacks/counters Obama by saying "hoping/wishing for change is not enough" or words to that effect, she does it in a way that sounds extremely patronizing and almost arrogant. The fact is that the "change" narrative has completely taken over the Democratic race - it is apparently more important to voters than just about any other quality/theme. For her to sound as though she is talking down on the one idea that the vast majority of the eventual voters can agree on will completely drown out any of the good points that she brings up (experience).

I've been looking at how the debate is being reporter, and although I think Obama had some weak spots, I think the general story is that he didn't do anything to hurt his position. I suspect that he will have done enough to carry NH.

Marc man, you gotta stop drinking the Clinton kool aid. Hillary attacked Obama and tried to get Edwards in on the act when he returned fire on her, she lost it. If what you said, voters are looking for a calm and cool presidential canididate then Hillary blew it big time. I wished ABC didn't interupt this meltdown. Then Hillary said words don't matter. Our nation was founded on words, "We hold these truths to be self evident", "Fourscore and seven years ago", "the only thing to fear is fear itself", "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country", " I have a dream......", "A nation healed a world repaired, let's go change the world". Words matter or you wouldnt have this site.

If anyone who watched the Democratic debate in New Hampshire comes out of it without believing that Hillary Clinton is the ONLY real choice for the next president of the U.S. (and leader of the free world), they simply do not WANT to see it. Hillary was so far above any of the others in focus, intelligence and experience that they actually became intimidated and started the old "we're going to gang up on you" trick, like schoolboys getting ready to sack the smartest kid in the class. Go Hillary.

Did you see Hillary in the debate? The woman looked crazed with her eyes bulging out of her skull. Clearly a "Dean" moment. Andy, why does she take credit for her husband's accomplishments? By the sound of how good we had it in the past, maybe Bill should have been on stage instead of her. With no Bill there is no Hillary. Turn the page America!

Hillary was great! She was down to the point and fired back to Obama-Edwards gang.
Barak is only repeating the same meaningless slogan –change, change, change- very boring.There is no depth in his words.

No depth? Why don't you find out for yourself: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/01/in-his-own-word.html.

Hillary keeps talking about all her experience. I wish someone would ask her why she is the best one to deal with health care given that the last time she was put in charge of Health Care (with a Democratic President, Democratic Congress and polls showing 80% of the public favoring universal coverage) she managed to fail. Why would I want to put this perso back in charge?

It was best performance by John Edwards to date. Infact he was the one who was unflappable. Pretty soon it is going to be Obama Edwards race.

Mr. Ambinder - Hillary unflappable? Are you kidding or did you sleep through part of this debate? How could you miss the almost complete decompensation by Hillary to Edwards pointing out that she is the status quo? She was practically yelling. I smell a Dean scream.

Check out this group of undecided voters that watched the debate turn against Hillary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apv5KWHgXTE

Puhleeze, better meta analysis could be turned out by one mentally challenged chimp typing for five minutes. Shorter Ambinder: 'Obama was ahead in the last poll I saw, so he won.' Brilliant 'analysis'

Barrak Obama is a child and so are his followers. No more bed time stories from Obama...the world is full of enemies named Hussein, and we need to prepare ourselves for the dangers we face.

Personally, I thought all four of the candidates did pretty well tonight. The only possible iffy thing was Richardson's statement that the United States should dictate that Musharraf should step aside, though he did have two of the best three one liners of the evening. However... Come on, man... Hillary Clinton as THE change agent? Do you really expect anybody to buy that?

Any of the three contenders will amount to a major change to what has been happening in the White House over the last six or so years. Any of them. So how exactly do you get off by stating that only Sen Clinton would enact such a change? That is just plain crazy talk.

Personally I find it funny that you point out the Sen Clinton quote that more or less said that words are meaningless as a good thing. For one thing, you are a writer... I would hope you would understand that words are not meaningless. More importantly, American political history is defined by impassioned arguments that did not have the force of law immediately behind them. An obvious example was Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation which freed a very small number of slaves at the time. That one worked out pretty well, didn't it? Hell, the legacy and legend of JFK was based on words, not actions. FDR had 'There is nothing to fear but fear itself.'. Even the Declaration of Independence was nothing but empty words, but they inspired enough colonials to fight a dominant global empire. Words do matter. Rhetoric does matter. I would hope that you would understand that, Mr. Ambinder. Vs... You know... The current President who has a tendency to say things like this in July of 2007...

"More than two decades later, it's hard to imagine the revolutionary war coming out any other way."

Inspiring... I would go to the wall for that guy.

I like Hillary Clinton. But I have to echo other's comments re: "Like Clinton tonight, he was unflappable." Clinton was not unflappable. Her feathers were seriously ruffled when Edwards labeled her as part of the status quo. She was very nearly yelling and karate chopping the air with her hand. But I thought she had one of the best lines with "You hurt my feelings" after a very rude question from the moderator (essentially, "Why do people not like you?").

What the Hillary supporters on this blog are forgetting is the simple fact that style wins over substance in presidental politics over and over again: "Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall", and a nation credits an actor with taking down the Soviet Union and is remember as one of the top 10 presidents OF ALL TIME!

Indeed, Clinton, may have had more to say and seemed more wonky but it doesn't add up to something memorable and inspiring.

And if anyone thought that her line that "I would be the first woman president and that is a change!" was witty, wtf?? And the first African-American as president is the status quo.

If anyone thinks that Hillary can carry the General election after tonight, then your idealism (or naievete) surpasses anything that has come out of the Obama camp.

I agree with Nathan. Hillary can't have it both ways; she can't be the reincarnation of Bill's 90's success and be an agent of change. Nor should she devalue the power of words,as sonya correctly points out. Just listen to some of the dead language her team has come up with: "from day one!"--shades of Bob Dole; "a new beginning"---did she actually pay someone to come up with this redundant and tired phrase? Even worse for her, when she followed Obama with "To bring things back to reality..." the viewers most certainly heard her condescending snarl. I think the country is now understanding that if any campaign has been spewing pixie dust, it's Mark Penn's Clinton machine: we are asked to believe that Hillary is in fact Bill and a vote for her magically brings back the 90's.. According to this magic thinking, it's she who balanced the budget. Well gee, if it worked that way voters could all write in Tipper Gore and magically get Al. Clearly, her handlers don't believe that she alone--without Bill-- is presidential material. Edwards and Obama should point out that busying yourself working harder is not synonymous with working smarter. Or maybe they're just allowing her to "work" a deeper hole for herself.

While she did at times get shrill (is that what she sounded like when she heard about Monica?) I think Clinton got her point across:

Experience should matter. Unfortunately for her, that train has largely left the station, and she doesn't really have time to "change" her message much (though the gender-card pull was noteworthy).

The most interesting moment in the whole evening for me came at the very beginning. With the tough question of whether he would stand by his comments on attacking terrorists in Pakistan, Obama stood his ground, and-- somewhat to my surprise-- the entire field followed behind him, agreeing that force was necessary if all other avenues had been exhausted.

I suspect this unity of opinion has something to do with the recent unrest in Pakistan, and (perhaps) vindicates Obama's original position.

Clinton wins political kudos, however, for being the first to really bring up the economy with any substance near the end of the debate. Using the "R" word as Charlie put it, will likely win her more than a few votes (judging, at least, by the fact that the economy is the top voter issue in almost every poll).

Overall a much more pleasant and high-minded debate than the Republicans, but not half as exciting.

Now only did Clinton lose her temper, she lost it in response to John Edwards. I find it hard to imagine a worse turn of events: it diminished her and built up Edwards at the same time.

So despite Ambinder's spin, I think the real question is quickly evolving into whether Edwards can catch her for second in NH.

Interesting points about Al Gore's endorsement:

http://acropolisreview.com/2008/01/al-gores-endorsement.html

Uh, yeah Ambinder, New Hampshire hates populists, WMUR's tracking poll gave the highest response of the night to: John Edwards on the economy.

Our focus group gave some o fht emost favorable ratings of the debate to John Edwards when he argued that the economy is out of balance and hits middle class Americans

Uh, yeah Ambinder, New Hampshire hates populists, WMUR's tracking poll gave the highest response of the night to: John Edwards on the economy.

Our focus group gave some o fht emost favorable ratings of the debate to John Edwards when he argued that the economy is out of balance and hits middle class Americans

Ah yes, time for the Ivy League elitist to come out in Ambinder.

If you didnt see that Edwards was by far the best in the second half of the debate at merging his message into his answers, you are truly hopeless.

Ambinder, you are a kid. A kid with an overinflated ego and a cusy job writing for a magazine read primarily by the same elite you went to college with.

Give it up. Go for a run. Lose weight. See the real world.

Believe it or not, Harvard and Yale are not the real world.

Clinton gave me the willies. Very spooky mean-spirited control freak---a Republican in Democrat clothing.

The confusion that a lot of people have is in thinking that Hillary Clinton is challenging Obamas' claim that he believes he is the most inspirational speaker concerning change and has the best delivery.

Hillary Clinton is not challenging that claim at all. So Obama supporters should just relax. Even Hillary Clinton would agree with you all that Obama believes that he delivers the message of change the best.

The only thing she is pointing out is that appart from claiming to believe she can deliver a speach on change she can actually deliver change.

Ken, who could possibly think that Clinton is challenging Obama's ability to convey change with the actual ability to devlier change?

The simple fact is that Hilary represents everything divisive about the Clinton Whitehouse. She doesn't posses her husband's affability or congeniality. If you truly believe that she can enter the Whitehouse on "day one" with her history and attitude of entitlement and push through legislation without compromising the very heart of her agenda, then I'm not sure what planet you're living on. And that's the point, her agenda is not like the agenda of the 90s - it's not about welfare reform, smaller government, NAFTA, or deregulation (all themes that Bill found a lot of common ground with Republicans on), it's about "comprehensive healthcare", expanded government control, and corporate constraints. For her, it will be fillabuster after fillabuster and the same stalemate that exists now which have resulted in 25% approval ratings for congress.

So tell me how will she be able to DELIVER on change. At least with Obama, you actually see some Republicans coming to the table, something unimaginable with Hilary at the forefront.

The only thing she is pointing out is that appart from claiming to believe she can deliver a speach on change she can actually deliver change.

And Obama is arguing that she can't actually deliver that change, in large part because she lacks the capacity to galvanize the American people.

Stick with your GOP BS Marc.

You have no clue how to cover Dems.

Obama was classy and calm, Edwards was great.

Clinton was shrill and Richardson was a major bore.

Right, Obama believes and you believe that Obama can talk the best about change.

That's fine.

All of us would agree, objectively, that Obama and his supporters believe he can deliver a fine speech.

But in the real world experience, knowledge and competence count more than does speachifying when you want to actually get something done.

Hillary Clinton demonstrated tonight what has been obvious for years to anyone who knows her. She is the smartest, most competent and accomplished candidate for president we've since perhaps her husband ran for office.

Now spare us the Clinton analysis you all absorbed over the last fifteen years of right wing propoganda and put your brains to work and think for yourself about this.

Yea, you're right Ken. Hilary is not a controversial character and won't have any problems convincing Republicans working with her. That's right, everyone is going to forget her history, Whitewater, her "vast rightwing conspiracy" remarks, and her hands in "universal healthcare" during her husband 1st term and cost the democrats their majority.

That's right, she will be going into the whitehouse without any Republican opposition at all, and everyone will fall prey to her warm and fuzzy legislation.

You really believe this? You really believe that "in the real world experience, knowledge and competence count more than" speeches? Yea, tell that to the 48 states that voted for that knowledgable and competent president Regan.

You're kidding yourself by repeating the words that "experience and competence" count, when the reality simply proves ir wrong. The reality is, most people buy the superficial appearance and to be an effective politican, you have to know how to use that to your advantage, this is something Hilary doesn't have and can not obtain.

Hillary knows who her enemies are. That knowledge was hard won and is vitally important when trying to actually accomplish anything.

Obama knows how to give a nice speach inviting his enemies to come and get what they want. His naivety is cute but we cannot afford cute. We need a president who is strong and battle tested and can lead our progressive forces to legislative victory over the conservatives aligned against our American values

Hillary is ready on day one because she already knows how things work. Obama will give nice speaches for a couple of years and maybe, if were lucky, he will figure it all out before he runs for a second term.

IMO, Hillary won the debate tonight. Her answers on foreign policy showed her level of experience and knowledge and she allowed for broad consequences that only she brought her re India and Nukes.

Edwards was exposed as a partial liar despite his passion. He did not pass a Patients BOR.

To the ones supporting Obama, he has stated repeatedly that he won't have lobbyists in his administration when clearly his NH campaign chair is a registered, paid lobbyist. He couldn't explain this and this is a valid point. It's true and he is a bit of a hypocrite.

I give a nod to her. Obama seemed one step above
Fred, he seemed a bit listless tonight.

I see some of the posters believing some of the right wing talking points. They don't like Hillary because they have been told not to like her. Ask any Republican senator in the Senate and they will all say that they can work with her. Peter King of NY said so on Fox as did Lindsay Graham and even McCain says that he respects her.


So that narrative that she won't be able to work with Republicans is a myth.

Ken: From "day one" you've done nothing but parrot memes from the Shrillary campaign. Have you lost all capacity for independent thought?

Hillary was scary. Both my 20something son and I thought she came across as an angry mom, shaking her finger at the others. We were cringing and hoping that we don't have this mommy lecturing us for the next 4 years. We don't need an angry mom lecturing us from the White House. Obama was about 100 times better. I felt like he was on our side while Hillary just wanting to yell at us. Scary.

Wow, this Ambinder guy is either really Anti-Obama, pro-Hillary, or blind, mute, deaf and dumb. Like poster sonya, I do believe that words do matter....JFK called for us to go to the moon and so we did becuase of his inspiration...he is a magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School, not some ignornant blowhard just looking to become president....dive into the details and you will see that Obama is the real policy "wonk" and has specifics on all the issues. Interesting on how he was right about the Iraq war being a dumb war, right on his answer on how to deal with Al Queda in Western Pakistan, and right on all the issues, yet people criticize his lack of experience. Its his judgement we need. Leave the experience to Rumsfeld and Cheney.

A lot of Obama supporters seem upset that Hillary will not concede to him the fact that he believes he gives a better speech than she does.

They have it all wrong. Objectively, we all know that Obama and his supporters believe that he gives the best speeches, especially about change. No one is doubting that. We all concede the point.

Oboma wins when the measure is how fervent one believes that speechifying is more important that accomplishments.

So stop all the misogynist rants about how horrible Hillary is treating Obama. She is not treating him bad at all.

I thought all the democrats in the debate discussed issues. I was pleased. I did not hear the depth of discussion or dialogue from the Republican debate tonight. Thank God, there was some content in the discourse. I think Hillary made a good point that the idea of change does not happen in our political enviroment without a qualified skill set. The question is, are we able to change the status quo with an old skill set or try a new skill set ? And how effective will an "untried" skill set perform in a political enviroment that effects other countries and people for which we do not have control of ? I think this is the basic question votes need to come to grips with, as do I.

Hillary was masterful. Simply fantastic.

Hillary was PHENOMENAL tonight. Her performance was exhilarating, invigorating, and quite inspirational. She stayed on point, and she was confident, passionate, assertive, and unequivocal in her responses. I was really turned off by Obama's outward cockiness and his vague professorial answers to the questions. Yes. He gives great speeches, but his answers and his record deserves greater scrutiny and after tonight, greater criticism. I am delighted that Hillary not only held her own, but fired some very good and legitimate volleys at Obama and Edwards, who have been the media darlings up till now. Lobbyist as chief state strategist? Stand up versus sitting down to dine-and-lobby? Where were Obama's responses to these sound and legitimate claims? And please, Iraq can be only used as political currency for so long. Axelrod tried to and was upbraided. Obama needs to get off the Iraq gravy train and start giving real substantive answers to serious foreign policy questions. As for Edwards, a smile, a southern twang, and and a designer coif can go so far, and his fiery populism is so overplayed it's just contrived at this point. Marc Ambinder is totally on-point with his wet sock analogy. Edwards can't even get elected in 2004. Kerry selected him as a running mate to help sway the South. That didn't happen. He didn't even help carry North Carolina. Not even by a close margin. He didn't even succeed in helping a Democrat succeed him in his Senate seat. His time is up. And his apparent tag-teaming tonight with Obama was just disgusting to watch, as it shows how opportunistic he is. This was collusion at its worst, and I commend Hillary for being able to stand up to the Scylla and Charybdis that is Obama and Edwards. And I have to give credit where credit is due: Gov. Richardson did amazingly well tonight. His passion, sincerity, and ardor really came through while Obama and Edwards looked like a pair of snake oil salesmen.

Come on now...in the reality of morning and a good night's sleep - if anyone still believes that Senator Clinton was presidential in her ability to articulate issues respectively under pressure - then go back to bed, and try again. Senator Obama, with the same lack of rest as the other candidates, was poised, respectful - and yes, presidential. My vote is yours Mr. Obama.

I dozed off only to get shocked awake by Ms. Clinton. She was very angry and her eyes popped out of her face! Can anyone translate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07u6uffKvpA

So, Marc...basically what you are saying is...you didn't watch the debate.

change can be good,as long as it is change for the better.OBAMA CAN NOT GIVE US CHANGE FOR THE BETTER.HE IS A ROOKIE.OBAMA WILL JUST GIVE US A WHOLE BUNCH OF CHICAGO POLITTIANS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.OBAMAS HOME STATE OF ILLINOIS IS IN TURMOIL,AND OBAMA HAS NOT LIFTED A FINGER TO HELP.OBAMAS CHANGE IS FOR THE WORSE.

Mr. Ambinder, were you watching or listening? Sounds like you might have gotten lost in those deep NH woods, and mixed up a moose turd pie for us in cyber space. You should have been there. Edwards'unadorned populism is my kind of message. Don't count on your tiny elite in Boston winnowing him out.
Two posts above mine, "RGBG" wrote that Obama needs to get off "the Iraq gravy train." For shame.
Hillary comes off brittle and angry. Still it's not about her eyes bulging. They do that anyway. It's her broad experience at compromise and double-talk. She's smart. But we need people like Edwards and a presidential Obama who speak truth to power, and invite us to be part of the process. We need poise and fight, both.

James O'Toole has done a fine job of documenting what leading changes means. It ain't anger.

http://www.jamesotoole.com/

http://www.josseybass.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1555426085.html

"For her to sound as though she is talking down on the one idea (hopeful change) that the vast majority of the eventual voters can agree on will completely drown out any of the good points (experience) that she brings up"

As long as Hillary is the NOT the front runner in these states, she needs to be very careful about this. If she's trying to claw away voters from Obama I don't think this is the way to do it - at all. Overall, her response to the "tag team" was effective and not shrill - but when she went into not getting the voters "hopes up" that was just the same old Status Quo bullshit through and through. It will not work against Obama.

Hillary was tonight's big Democratic loser because of her sharp-tongued attacks on the other three candidates after Senator Edwards successfully provoked her to anger. He, of course, only pointed out the obvious about the Clintons and their attack dog politics. Senator Obama clearly won tonight's Democratic debate with his calm demeanor and measured responses to Hillary's jabs. As a conservative Republican, I can at least give Barack Obama credit for his great dignity under fire, for his heartfelt desire to work for real unity among Democrats, Republicans, and Independents to achieve the common good in our national politics, and for his genuine desire to avoid the corrosive gutter politics prefered by both Clintons. I'm not saying that his desire for socialized, federally-legislated and -controlled programs to solve problems which the 10th Amendment clearly reserves to the states and individual citizens to solve is the approach I like, but Senator Obama reminds me fondly of another great Illinois Democrat who was also possessed of great intellect and dignity and a genuine desire for national unity, the late Adlai Stevenson.

Maybe she just had passion! =)

Experience DOES matter. Why? Because if all you look for is a personable guy who lack's knowledge and experience in dealing with domestic and global issues, you end up with George Bush Jr. who became his cabinet's puppet. Obama will lose in the long run, I assure you. The bubble of illusive hope and change that is not backed up by strategic policy has been busted. Hillary called him on personally hiring a lobbyist to work for him and that he has flip flopped himself, e.g., as a reminder...voted for the patriot act (when originally he was against it) or voted for further funding the Iraq War (when he said he wouldn't support it), and he couldn't openly and candidly deny it. Hmmm...sounds like flip floppers exist everywhere, including Obama, so if you're going to vote for a flip flopper anyway, why not vote for someone who has knowledge and experience beyond civil rights. Oh, and I almost forgot, ask any Illinois resident, "What REAL change he has brought about in Illinois?" Their minds go blank because they can't think of any overt change that has taken place. He's missed key votes in Congress in favor of focusing on his campaign for presidency. His goal is clear, become President as quickly as possible and at any cost and forget about skill, knowledge and experience in order to judiciously execute intelligent decisions. He's a great speaker and can do great pep rally's, but this is not a high school popularity contest where you vote on likeability but rather on the important job of a President which needs to be given to an individual who QUALIFIES for the position like any other job. Thank you.

You must have fallen asleep during the debate Mr Ambinder. You don't like Edwards because the current system works fine for you. For those of us that are getting screwed by these free trade deals, we share a different opinion.


That said, Clinton was the clear loser. She was annoying most of the time. She got bitch slapped when she tried attacking Obama on health care.

Clinton "candidate of change"? Har dee har har.

Mike

Obama memorably parried Hillary's charge that he's all talk, no action on change. First he buried Bill while praising him, acknowledging his budget mastery but adding the charge that he was unable to build a coalition for any major initiative. Then he stood the 'all talk' charge on its head, asserting that you have to build massive popular support for a major change like health care reform before you're in a position to work it through Congress and competing special interests: "Words do help people get involved. Words do help members of Congress get into power so that they can be part of a coalition to deliver health care reform, to deliver a bold energy policy. Don't discount that power, because when the American people are determined that something is going to happen, then it happens. And if they are disaffected and cynical and fearful and told that it can't be done, then it doesn't." Bingo...

Marc,

Reading your biased and blind analysis makes me sick at my stomach. In 2000, I learned that our right to vote can be manipulated in a big way by the powers that be. In 2008, I'm learning about the media, and how much harm they can do to voters.

Regarding your last paragraph, you are so out of touch with ordinary Americans in your privileged economic position that it's a travesty for you to be reporting on the election. You don't have a clue what it's like to be working hard, and losing ground economically. If you did, there is no way you could dismiss Edwards message so lightly. Perhaps you need an internship in the other way of life in America. YOur perch has made you blind.

Taking a step back from the debate to the bigger picture, the reason progressives should be supporting Obama is because he is the only Democratic candidate who has the potential to actually lead a progressive re-alignment. Obama is bringing new voters into the democratic fold, as well as reaching out effectively to independents and Republicans (all this can be seen in the Iowa results, which I suspect will be repeated in New Hampshire). Clinton can win a general election, but it would be a much narrower win, and would not come with anything like the mandate Obama could possibly command. The worse thing that could happen to the progressive agenda would be for Obama to be crippled by the Clinton attack machine in the primaries, so I hope they can think of the good of the agenda they share with Obama (and Edwards - really, there aren't much policy differences between the Democratic candidates) and try to keep the slime to a minimum. That might be a hard thing for the Clintons to do, as it is their natural default, but it only plays to the advantage of the Republicans. It would be a sad way to see the Clinton's exit the leadership of the Democratic party.

Edwards and Obama Ganging Up on Hillary in the N.H. Debate

Some observations of the debate by a guy from the north of the border:

1. It was amusing to see Edwards and Obama blatantly ganging up on Clinton in the debate. But she looked presidential by countering the gang attack. She also handled it with a good touch of humour when the WMUR TV political director brought this "ganging up" episode to her attention.

2. Why was it right for all of the candidates, incuding Obama and Edwards, in the previous debates to attack Hillary while she was ahead and it is not right for her to point out that Obama changed his positions on several issues?

3. Bill Richardson looked like he was sitting on something sharp or he needed to see a doctor. He did not look presidential at all. He helped Hillary by emphasizing that to bring change you also need experience.

4. Obama could not wait for the debate to be over with and go to bed. He reminded me of George Bush (the father) looking at his watch during a debate with Clinton (the husband). He also looked more like Nixon in the Nixon-Kennedy debate– tired and out of sorts.

By looking at Edwards while answering questions and Edwards patting him in the back, Obama came across as a little boy who needed help from big brother, Edwards. His thanking of Edwards for standing up for him during the break did not go unnoticed.

5. Edwards sounded like an angry bull trying to take on the world. He sounds ingenuous every time he speaks. He has overused the line of his father working in a mill and his grandmother working there too. Furthermore, this agent of change had very little to show for from six years of senate tenure. It was good of Hillary to point out that change without actions are just words. In my opnion, that's what Edwards is: full of angry outbursts. And that's what Obama is: full of flowery phrases ("change", "hope" and "this is the moment" ).

6. Hillary looked a llittle tired while watching others speak. But she won the debate with her response to the likeability question, ponting out Obama's flip-flop on several issues, correcting that the Patient Bill of Rights that Edwards took credit for never passed as a law, and emphasizing that when it comes to change, she did not stop only talking about it, but took action to bring about many tangible changes over the last 35 years.

7. Of all the four in the stage, she looked the most presidential and was in control of the debate. And Edwards was right about her dress this time. That green dress with the matching necklace really looked nice on her.

Isn't there a problem in the logic of saying "I'm an agent of change" and "I've been doing this for 35 years?" How much different is the new thing you're promising if it's the same thing you've been doing for decades?

If you're promising the same thing you've been doing for 35 years, how much of a change will that bring?

I think that Hillary Clinton came off as rude an obnoxious and NOT the kind of President that I want. The fact that she wants to lay claim to being the "candidate for change" now that Obama has shown America's desire, is quite simply hilarious. She is changing her tune mid-stride and NOBODY has called her campaign on THAT issue! Obama is always pleasant to watch and you really want to believe in him, even if his inexperience leaves him occasionally fumbling for words. And Edwards...well, personally I support him, but he can occasionally come off a little too southern, small town, deep-fried...if you know what I mean? Anyway, I think that it is ridiculous to say that Hillary won that debate. She and Richardson were fighting for last place amongst themselves! This may just be the year that we actually get a President who believes in what he says, instead of playing political games. Hillary is definitely NOT that candidate.

First, in response to Pam, I stand by my statement regarding Obama's persistent use of Iraq to tout his nonexistent foreign policy laurels. He hasn't posited anything constructive or insightful, and I'm sorry, but talking about someone else's foreign policy votes is not really tantamount to talking about your own experience. Furthermore, given that he was not even a US Senator at the time, nor that he was privy to the false information that the Senate was fed to at the time, and the fact that he can afford to take unpopular positions at the time given how reliably Democratic his Chicago constituency is and how his stance was not going to be subject to national scrutiny at the time, he's being incredibly opportunistic, and it saddens me how the public fails to notice all of this. Sen. Obama also chairs the Senate Subcommittee on West European policies. Since he was at the helm, he has not even called a meeting, nor has he visited a Western European country, or called meetings with any Western European attachés or diplomats, all while the British, French, and the Italians had a change in leadership, Britain is rethinking its presence and role in Iraq, and more EU/Euro expansion.

Furthermore, he's using his failure to vote on the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment as a sign of his good judgment. I'm still flummoxed as to how someone who was not even present to vote can even criticize someone for their vote? To me, taking a principled stance on the issue of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is better that not even being there to vote for it and then spinning their failure to show up as an indication of good judgment. As a liberal California Democrat, I agree with Sen. Clinton's vote. This is not a blank check to war, but a legitimate declaration. Isn't a terrorist someone who has made it their goal to kill or aid in the killing of Americans? There is conclusive evidence that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is supplying Shiite rebels with weapons to kill American troops.

It's for shame that this election is fast becoming another referendum on personality and charisma, not actual issues. Sen. Clinton criticisms are legitimate and it's high time Sen. Obama is placed under scrutiny. He has been getting a free pass from the media until now, and he has not been asked to follow up his lofty claims with actual answers. Look, I love the guy, and I agree with his message of change. However, given the gravity of the problems that this country is confronting and will confront beyond the election, we cannot deny that experience is required to actually effect this change. One needs to know what they're dealing with, what parts to keep, what parts to jettison; who will go along, and who will resist. Obama has had barely three years in Washington. Although I concede that that is a positive in that one can make a leap that he is not as "tainted" by the ways of Washington, but this is also negative in and of itself. Furthermore, change requires an intimate knowledge of how to work with and take on the Republicans. Never has the ideological and political divide been more pronounced as it is now, and as well-intentioned as agendas are to build coalitions and reach out, Republicans are entrenched, and they will build a formidable wall unless a plethora of committed liberal Democrats are elected in the Congress to neutralize Republican opposition and obstruction (10+ more in the Senate and a whole hell of a lot more in the House). And we should not forget, Sen. Obama is also descended from the corrupt machine of Chicago and Illinois politics. What changes did he bring about to these two establishments to diminish the image of corrupt machine politics that is inevitably associated with them?

To Obama and Edwards supporters, I have nothing against your respective candidates. But let us have a constructive and meaningful discussion on the issues and records, rather than just taking cheap and irrelevant shots on personalities, on bulging eyes, on physical appearances, or past spousal indiscretions and infidelities.

And let's give Marc a break. Ambinder should not be lambasted for expressing an opinion outside of the journalistic and editorial mainstream that is undoubtedly slanted in favor of Obama and against Hillary.

Sounds like everyone needs to dry-off, get warm, and have a cup of hot-chocolate. I had a good nap. No matter who wins or loses in New Hampshire, the fate of the free world is always in the balance; the situation desperate, as usual. And for those who haven't already done so, maybe it's time to take a stroll down memory lane. Go ahead, grab a beverage, cheers: http://theseedsof9-11.com

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