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The Bottom Lines

26 Jan 2008 10:02 pm

1. A win is a win is a win. Forget the racial and gender demographics. A big win is a big win. This is a big win. Obama nearly received more votes than all the Democrats combined in 2004. South Carolina was also a primary, not a caucus.

2. Finishing a low second and a few points ahead John Edwards is a tough truth for Hillary Clinton to confront. The campaign predicted they'd finish second but did not believe that Edwards would come as close as he did.

3. The South Carolina primary is ammunition for those who believe that Clinton is only electable on the coasts. (That's why she's in Tennessee tonight.) A point: in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina, a majority of Democrats have voted against Hillary Clinton.

4. Undoubtedly, black voters were turned off by the Clinton campaign's insinuation that their vote really didn't count because everyone just knew they'd choose Obama.

5. The exit polls show that Bill Clinton did not help his wife not one bit in South Carolina and may have hurt her. Late deciders were driven to Obama by large margins.

6. Obama kept it competitive with white voters and brought tens of thousands of new voters and young voters into the process. His usual coalition -- younger folks, folks with college degrees -- expanded to include voters of all income levels. This is key to Feb. 5.

7. Whether the racial prism through which South Carolina was viewed was, in matter of fact, the
fault of a concerted effort by the Clintons, the political establishment believes it to be so, and the Clintons face a huge perception problem. BTW: the margin of victory tonight could persuade folks like Ted Kennedy to shrug off their neutrality and endorse.

8. Confidence does not become the Clinton campaign. When it gets cocky, it loses focus and humility, which seems to be the key to its success.

9. Boy, can the Obama campaign organize. Steve Hildebrand helped to put this together. Jeremy Bird, Stacey Brayboy and Anton Gunn executed it. Cornell Belcher polled it. And Michelle Obama helped more than one might expect.

10. The margin of victory was so big that the press was easily able to dismiss the Clinton campaign's spin tonight. But here are legitimate points they might make:
(a). About 20 percent of black voters did choose Hillary Clinton.
(b) In no major state going forward does Barack Obama have the same demographic advantages as he had in South Carolina. (In Georgia, 30% of the population is black; in Alabama, the figure is 25%. In California, which allocates 8 times as many delegates as South Carolina does, is about 7% black. (Arkansas and New York have large black populations, but…)
(c) South Carolina and Iowa were the two retail states where Obama's campaign worked the hardest and spent the most, and Obama was able to build movements in those states. But it took months. He can't replicate these organizations in 22 states in 9 days.
(d) Hillary Clinton is running strong in states like Tennessee, Missouri and Arkansas -- all interior states -- and is stronger in the states with the most delegates.
(e) Including Florida and Michigan, more Democrats have voted for HRC than any other candidate by far.

Comments (84)

Including Florida? I just woke up from a nap -- I guess I was gone for longer than I thought...

I'm in Tennessee and I will be voting on Monday (we vote early in TN) for Barack Obama. Tennessee is a funny state. I could see Obama and Edwards doing well here in East Tennessee because of young voters at UT (Knoxville) and proximity to Edwards' North Carolina. Obama has a huge advantage in West Tennessee, with Memphis' large African American population. Middle Tennessee and Nashville is Hillary's strongest "grand division" and that's why she's there tonight.

Though I live in a heavily Republican East Tennessee county, there are many very vocal Democrats here. Bumper stickers among liberals I know skew to Obama. A woman across the street - working class Democrat mostly - supports Hillary because she's "tough." That's just my anecdotal circle in East Tennessee.

In the end, we have to see how polling shifts after the South Carolina blowout. Bill Clinton won Tennessee twice, and the Clintons have a lot of residual support among yellow dog Democrats across the state. But Obama could catch fire here.

New York is 17.4% black, Arkansas is 15.7% black. That's not much more than the 12.8% national percentage.

Florida hasn't voted yet and Edwards and Obama weren't on the ballot in Michigan...

I wish Liz would stop beating around the bush and tell us how she really feels about Obama.

Ambinder, please, get real! Florida has not voted, and Michigan is irrelevant to any real vote count. In any case, the name of the game is winning the independents, as well as the question of how many white votes Edwards strips from Clinton. Besides, you are utterly misleading on Obama's organizational team. OF course they aren't starting to build their organizations from scratch in 9 days. They have been planning and building for months, and you should know this. This really is a pathetic attempt to duck a smashing victory for Obama in the name of keeping Hillary credible.

It has been a democratic race to the Whitehouse with Obama A head it look as if there will be more of a fight in the near future well brothers get out there ,and make the dream come true we can make a diference . On Feb 5th VOte For the brother.

It has been a democratic race to the Whitehouse with Obama A head it look as if there will be more of a fight in the near future well brothers get out there ,and make the dream come true we can make a diference . On Feb 5th VOte For the brother.

It has been a democratic race to the Whitehouse with Obama A head it look as if there will be more of a fight in the near future well brothers get out there ,and make the dream come true we can make a diference . On Feb 5th VOte For the brother.

It has been a democratic race to the Whitehouse with Obama A head it look as if there will be more of a fight in the near future well brothers get out there ,and make the dream come true we can make a diference . On Feb 5th VOte For the brother.

Just a minor point about organization. Obama does not need to build 22 new organizations. His Iowa organization has moved to Wisconsin/Minnesota. I'm sure the same will be true of the South Carolina organization, the New Hampshire organization, etc.

"(e) Including Florida and Michigan, more Democrats have voted for HRC than any other candidate by far."

How exactly is that a "legitimate point"?

Marc, good list but another one I would point out. Driven by Obama's new voters, turnout was higher in SC for dems than republicans. That is a remarkable feat in SC. Obama has said that he could put southern states in play in a general by increasing black turnouts 35-40 %...when he said that most in the media dismissed it as hyperbole. But looking at this turnout, you have to really consider whether this is true. Now I am not saying obama would win SC, but he could pick off some southern states that other dems could not pick up in a general.

"Whether the racial prism through which South Carolina was viewed was, in matter of fact, the
fault of a concerted effort by the Clintons. . ."

Right, it wasn't concerted. This is why they're referencing Obama as the "black candidate" tonight. At what point, Marc, will you get shaken out of this fantasy that it was unintentional?

Also, how many votes did Hillary get in Florida?

Marc,
What risk have the two Clintons taken in their lives?

Obama worked as a community organizer. Became a constitutional law scholar. Got elected to the State House.

Come on. You people are so deep into the Clintons' payroll that I am questioning your patriotism.

This is America. Here we expect people to climb Mt. Everest. No one gets to the top via a free ride.

Reject the two Clintons. Totally. Completely.

USA. USA. OBAMA. OBAMA.

Liz:

What risk have the two Clintons taken in their lives?

Obama worked as a community organizer. Became a constitutional law scholar. Got elected to the State House.

Come on. You people are so deep into the Clintons' payroll that I am questioning your patriotism.

This is America. Here we expect people to climb Mt. Everest on their own. No one gets to the top via a free ride.

Reject the two Clintons. Totally. Completely.

USA. USA. OBAMA. OBAMA.

Hillary's still in control of the race. She has the cash and the widespread appeal/name recognition to still handily beat Obama. But tonight was not a good night for the Clintons. Especially Bill...

http://www.political-buzz.com/

"here are legitimate points they might make:" ... "including Florida and Michigan"

Wh-wh-wha? Marc. What the fuck are you talking about.

In other news, people are overlooking the fact that Obama tied Hillary among white males.

Frank Rich is great. What fun when people take on two Clintons. I am so happy when these things happen.

This morning it was Colbert I King.

Then the voters of SC.

Then my future president, Obama.

Now Frank Rich.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/opinion/27rich.html

++++
Screw the Clintons. Forget Clintons.

True -- they invested alot of time/treasure in Iowa and SC, but they needed those as a slingshot to Feb 5. They lost the spin war in New Hampshire and Nevada, which were pretty impressive feats given that in the former he went up against a more formidable machine and a state that has historically loved them, and the latter in which the Culinary endorsement was overrated and the real story was that his ground game in the rural areas beat Clinton enough that he scored more delegates in that state.

While the polls look a bit daunting, he's in very good shape. He's got cash for ads, positive mo' for a crushing "unity" coalition in SC, and an impressive net/roots energized and moving forward to Feb 5.

In this election cycle, the formidable leads can melt quickly because of the "late deciders." And if Obama's ground game can bring out the youth and indies to vote (15 of the 22 on Tsuper Tuesday are open to indies, right?) then that can neutralize the older rank 'n filers that Clinton's got in her pocky.

I'm not saying it's going to be an Obama sweep on Feb 5. But if he keeps playing it smart he should be able to win his homestate of IL; springboard to wins in GA and AL in the South. Break even in the big blue states MA, NJ, NY and CA; and then win in purple states such as MO, MN, KS, NM.

He won't win outright, but that performance should make the case to the superdelegates that he's for real, and he represents the best shot at the White House and success downticket.

The main demographic group, which has been most benefited from the Affirmative Action, is white women, not African Americans.

"Including Florida and Michigan, more Democrats have voted for HRC than any other candidate by far. "

Has there been an election in Florida that I missed?

And MI? Please. Tracy Flick was the only one to not play by the rules.

"(e) Including Florida and Michigan, more Democrats have voted for HRC than any other candidate by far."

Um, Floridians haven't voted yet. And no one else was on the ballot in Michigan.

Why do commentators who are paid heftly to provide us with insight can't show basic rational skills?

If Georgia has a 30% black population - 90% of which votes for democrats, this means that you multiply it by 2 (or 1.9 to be precise) and by 0.9. This means that african americans make 54% of the democratic electorate.

And so on and so on...

Just a couple of points regarding the Clinton's spin.

1. Obama cannot replicate what he did in Iowa and South Carolina in just 9 days - true. But also remember that Obama has had offices and staff in many of these states for a long time (by campaign standards). Who else has an office in Alaska? I just heard we were getting another office in Wisconsin this week. People have been organizing at the grassroots level for months.

2.Florida hasn't even voted yet so I'm not really sure what her point is here. And Michigan - considering that she was the only one on the ballot I guess she did get more votes - but consider that she only beat uncommitted by 15 percent. That doesn't sound too good after tonight.

Liz says: "THE TRUTH ABOUT BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA

(1) He was accepted into Columbia and Harvard because of affirmative action (not academic merit)

(2) His black nationalist church in Chicago has called for the execution of all white people.

Need I say more? I'm not even going to mention his proclivity for raping white women."

Where is your evidence for these statements? Even if someone makes it into a university by affirmative action, they still have to PASS THE CLASSES. And the bar exam. Plenty of people don't manage that. And the U. of Chicago where he taught law is a conservative bastion. His church does not reject white people in any way, in fact some attend there. It does promote a measure of black pride, but that's not the same as wanting to put white people down, let alone execute them. And raping anyone, white or black? You must have an overactive imagination.

The result in South Carolina was a sharp rebuke to the tactics of the Clintons, who will indeed say anything if they think it'll get them votes. But it's not going to work! How calculated, how phony she sounds when she talks about continuing the conversation. What conversation?

The Clintons did inject color into the election. They're despicable. And they're passe. Obama is the future.

Video of Obama's SC speech here.

Definitely worth watching.

Michelle Obama definitely helped in South Carolina. Her series of speeches, culminating with that spectacular one in Orangeburg, I think, was decisive.

237,762 voted "uncommitted" in michigan. those votes don't go in Obama's column but they should. Florida hasnt happened yet.

Mark--

I think you make a category error here. It's not the percentage of a state's population that is African American that matters; it's their percentage of all primary voters.

The total for Obama - just look at it. He got -- BY HIMSELF - more votes than the ENTIRE 2004 Democratic Primary in South Carolina. That's TURNOUT, and it just can't be dismissed.

Yes! Yes! And, Yes! Good on you South Carolina! I've been waiting for this. Yes! Hillary Clinton is indeed in Tennessee as I write, at a college, talking about the future of America, dodging as many questions as the folks can field - acting personable as only Hillary can. Yeah, right. I'd sure hate to have Bill Clinton stumping for me. Nobody's ever going to accuse him of dragging his office through the mud. What a treat. What a great victory speech by Senator Obama. What a great crowd! In politics, where good never seems to triumph like it should, I feel pretty good about the good people of the State of South Carolina, handing Hillary her hat. Good on you: http://theseedsof9-11.com

1. It wasn't a 20 point win, it was a 27.5 point win.

2. Obama won white males; won whites under 30; won those with a college degree, etc. That spin isn't going to work.

3. Bill Clinton stepped in it big time when he said, "Jesse Jackson won South Carolina twice."

4. Many in the establishment are not fond of the Clintons. Blood is in the water now. I expect to see many very senior Democrats jumping onto the Obama train over the next week.

5. Rasmussen had the national race closing to 36-33 in its tracking poll tomorrow. One would presume that a bump--and perhaps a slight national lead--is headed Obama's way.

6. Obama framed it as the past versus the future, and totally destroyed the Clintons arguments.

7. California polls show it as within 10%

8. Edwards did well enough to hang on. He'll stay in the race now. Good for Obama, as he's siphoning off votes from Clinton.

9. The black vote going 81-16 for Obama causes real problems for the Clintons. The establishment fears people will stay home if Billary is nominated, which is why they're bailing. Further, Obama will run extremely well in black districts in New York and narrow Billary's margins there. Because of the proportional allocation system by Congressional District and the party's affirmative action plan, this virtually guarantees that Obama will get a big chunk of delegates, even in the states he loses on February 5th.

10. A tie on February 5th sets up an "overtime "on 2-9 (NE and LA) and 2-12 (MD/VA/DC). These are all states that favor Obama. Nebraska is a rural area like northern Nevada and Iowa, which Obama has done extremely well in; he has the support of Ben Nelson. Louisiana is a state with a large African American population. About 1/3 of Democratic Primary voters in Maryland are black; Maryland has many highly educated and affluent residents (also good demographics for Obama). Virginia has the same demographics as Maryland, plus a large rural area in the southwestern part of the state. Obama has the support of Gov. Kaine. DC is 80% African American. Those states set up well for Obama wo tin 4 of 5, or perhaps even 5-5. If that happens, they'll be extraordinary pressure on Billary from the establishment to get out of the way and give Obama a clear shot to the convention. My guess is people dangle the Majority Leadership position in front of Hillary.

For those reasons, I think it's likely that Obama will be the nominee on 2-12. Things can always change. But I give him a 2-1 chance of winning now.

WOO-HOO!!!! I haven't felt this good about an election since 2006. The message of hope is coming through!!

Reject the dynasty, its time to turn the page.

It's all about California at this point. I expect Hillary to win New York, New Jersey, Arizona and Oklahoma easily. I expect Obama to win Illinois, Georgia, Alabama and Wisconsin. Tennessee and Missouri are close calls.

The big one is California, with its massive delegate count. Two issues play into California:

1) White liberals. The SF Chronicle endorsement will help among Bay Area liberals who form a critical base to the party. But what about older white liberal women? They will be hard for Obama to get, so he'll have to focus on younger women and on liberal men.

2) Latinos. Obama gets destroyed among Latinos, but it's hard to gauge their turnout. They rallied to Hillary in NV, despite the Culinary endorsement. Obama must do what he can to close the gap among Lations, even if he doesn't win them. Discuss support for immigration reform, organizing efforts among Mexican Americans in Chicago (there are more Mexican Americans in Chicago than in any other city in America outside LA), and even appeal to Latino evangelicals on religion. That could make the difference.

Obama sold his soul for South Carolina. He had to make it an election based on race to be sure of winning there. But it was a devil's bargain he can only make once. Now he has to pay the price. For all eternity. At least political eternity.

Hey, remember all those people wondering about the Obama campaign's decision to spend money and effort into building up infrastructure in the interior states like MN, ND and so on?

Sometimes it really does seem like Team Obama knows exactly what it's doing and we're just along for the ride.

About the Latino issue, I would love to see the exit polls number for Latinos in SC. If I remember correctly the last polls showed him getting 55% of their votes !

And yes indeed the SF Chronicle, the St Louis Morning Dispatch, the Philly Inquirer and the Chicago Tribune all endorsed Obama this weekend. So much for the New York Times.

To Liz Matheson

Reading your comments makes one wonder-What planet are you from? (to make such far out and fearful comments about Obama) It's hard to believe people still really think like this, direct from the dark ages.

What are you afraid of??? This kind of thinking can only come from intense fear. Spreading ignorance and hatred is never helpful. What can we do for you?

Your white sister

To Liz Matheson

Reading your comments makes one wonder-what are you afraid of?( to make such far out and prejudiced comments about Obama) It's hard to believe people still really think like this, direct from the dark ages.

What are you afraid of??? This kind of thinking can only come from intense fear. Spreading ignorance and hatred is never helpful. What can we do for you?

Your white sister

Obama has organizations in most of the Super Tuesday States, how about looking before you leap mister. Including 12 offices in Colorado, and offices in Alaska, Idaho and North Dakota where no one else has bothered to go.

Things will be close on Super Tuesday, those 'leads' in those border states will disappear as Obama gets a chance to campaign in those states.

Also, Florida does not happen until Tuesday, no delegates will be awarded, but Obama will do better then expected, the Clintons have been hyping up the Florida Primary while they down played the SC primary.

To Liz Matheson

Reading your comments makes one wonder-what are you afraid of?( to make such far out and prejudiced comments about Obama) It's hard to believe people still really think like this, direct from the dark ages.

What are you afraid of??? This kind of thinking can only come from intense fear. Spreading ignorance and hatred is never helpful. What can we do for you?

Your white sister

To Liz Matheson

Reading your comments makes one wonder-what are you afraid of?( to make such far out and prejudiced comments about Obama) It's hard to believe people still really think like this, direct from the dark ages.

What are you afraid of??? This kind of thinking can only come from intense fear. Spreading ignorance and hatred is never helpful. What can we do for you?

Your white sister

Re: #3 & your point, remember that they weren't all Democrats and if they were they were/could be Democrats for a day.

Two corrections:

1) Florida hasn't voted yet (unless you are counting early votes which haven't been counted which seems pretty unreasonable, since who they are for is just conjecture).

2) The % of people who are black is not much different in Georgia than it is in SC, but it is actually higher in Georgia - 30.3% in Georgia vs. 29.7% in SC. So you made a factual error here.

Why is anyone paying any attention to Liz there? She is obviously a troll, and she is just copy/pasting the same BS she put up on Matt Y's blog. Ignore her and debate those who actually have intelligent, reasonable points to make.

In other words, don't let her bait you.

Has anyone actually watched HRC's post-SC event on C-SPAN? She goes on for over an hour. It is torture. It is pathetic and sad. And the audience is falling asleep. Just listen to her riff on her marriage to Bill and all that she achieved after she married him. It is a stunning implosion. And I guess Bill went on for 75 minutes wherever he was tonight.

One point to ponder before you crown Obama the messiah, as most of the press has done: Jesse Jackson won South Carolina with 55% in 1988. Yes, that's right. This is not a historic, world-shattering win, as the press would like us to believe. He had a great victory, but the rest of America is not South Carolina. Jesse Jackson won 11 states, but lost the nomination. Obama has won 1 caucus and 1 primary out of the 5 thus far. He has a long way to go before he has done anything historic, and especially before he gets a win. It would be nice to see a little bit of perspective in the press, but of course that won't happen. They still have a pathological need to bash the Clintons. If Obama were to win the democratic nomination, they would begin bashing him and coronating whichever Republican loser is chosen. Just as they always have done.

The start of another VERY POSITIVE storyline for Obama ?

In Sunday's NYT:

SENATOR OBAMA WEATHER ATTACKS TO WIN
"Senator Barack Obama proved he could endure all that the Clinton campaign threw at him this week"
by Patrick Healy
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/us/politics/27assess.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin

The game changes completely tomorrow. All of the conventional arguments are out the window. The victory speech and Caroline Kennedy's glowing endorsement falling on the same night as Bill comparing Obama to Jesse Jackson. This is going down in the history books. The Clintons should bow out gracefully while their brand is still in tact. They can still do plenty of good in other ways. Although who could prepare him better for the GOP attack methods than the Clintons' approach? I just don't see how any Republican can beat him, let alone any other democrat. Just how do you campaign against this?

Sheesh, even the Wonkette staff was impressed by the speech. Went there for a quick hit of snark and it was full of hope.

--

I'd assumed the first post on this thread was someone's idea of a joke.
http://faqs.org/faqs/tv/sat-night-live/song-lyrics/section-1.html
Maybe not. But the last week shows you something really important, which is you can stand up to bullies. One of the ways the crap works is through fear -- OMG if you nominate a black man people will flip out. And you know what: a few people will flip out. Big deal. Be firm and stand your ground.

I wouldn't get so ahead of youself there Jared. I expected Obama to win tonight, but not by this margin, so things are looking up, but it's still more likely than not that Clinton is going to win. Hopefully Obama has a good California operation.

This election was at least partly a referendum on honesty. For many, integrity is a minimum threshold. Clintons' serial deceit revealed was critical.

You're quite right, mad6798j. It'll be interesting if it stays a contest into Spring. I'm savoring the chance for WA state voters to influence the Democratic nomination, something that happens here about as often as a solar eclipse.

I guess the last time the contest really went long was 1972. We've become used to the idea that you have a quick few weeks of contests, Momentum blesses someone, and you're done -- partly because laggards run out of money. This time we have two well-financed, well-organized campaigns with deep wells of support.

CA looms large, though if I were the Obama campaign I'd be looking for cheap ways to make her defend NY-NJ-CT.

Despite being a Clinton supporter during the 1990's, they have me so miffed since Iowa (when they sneered at my home state for choosing Obama in the caucuses) that I've been going back and reading Bill's impeachment stuff in the name of retroactive fun.

Count me as one of those progressives who are now beginning to see why the conservatives always hated the Clintons' guts. I hate them now too. What a cynical pair of lying, spinmeistering frauds.

Despite being a Clinton supporter during the 1990's, they have me so miffed since Iowa (when they sneered at my home state for choosing Obama in the caucuses) that I've been going back and reading Bill's impeachment stuff in the name of retroactive fun.

Count me as one of those progressives who are now beginning to see why the conservatives always hated the Clintons' guts. I hate them now too. What a cynical pair of lying, spinmeistering frauds.

To the person who said obama got into columbia and harvard b/c of affirmative action. yeah, affirmative action helped him get into columbia, but not harvard. and affirmative action didnt help him get elected as the president and chief editor of the harvard law review (one of the most prestigous, and world renown law journals) among 18 white and 4 other black candidates. and affirmative action didn't help him graduate MAGNA CUM LAUDE.

Silliest point ever: A majority of Democrats have voted against Hillary in Iowa, NH, and SC. A majority of Democrats have voted against Obama in Iowa, NH, Nevada, and Michigan. A majority of Republicans have voted against all of them in every state, except maybe Romney in NV.

We might all wish to think otherwise, but this vote was determined by race. There's nothing good or bad about that--it is what it is. Obama took 80% of the black vote and 25% of the white vote. He actually got a smaller fraction of the white vote than he did in any of the other three states.

Liz Matheson GTE SOME HELP YOU ARE NOT WELL

I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. That is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.
Martin Luther King Jr.

Liz Matheson GTE SOME HELP YOU ARE NOT WELL

I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. That is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.
Martin Luther King Jr.

no, steve,
obama got more white male votes than clinton, he carried over double the predicted white vote outcome. he won every demographic against the republicans and against hillary. god people, stop spreading distortions.

You're doing the whole "voting against" thing, too? Did Nevada vote against Obama?

John: One poll showed him getting 10% of the white vote, but most of the others showed Obama getting something in the 20s. See http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=44f7c683-6b75-49c4-9e5d-ac2dbed05859 for example.

Did I say anything false? According to exit polls, Obama finished in third place among whites but rolled up a huge majority among blacks. Those are the facts. I'm not assigning any positive or negative opinion to it--it just happens to be what it is.

Maybe I simplified too much when I said that race determined the outcome, but I don't think you can deny that it was by far the biggest factor, at least at the demographic level.

Marc: "Including Florida and Michigan...."

Why would you do that? The candidates can't campaign there. If you want to say they are doing it anyway, fine. The candidates can't campaign freely and openly there.

This is not how we run elections in the US. Why would any journalist mention Florida and Michigan other than as a travesty in a society that values free speech as part of democracy?

Here in Tennessee, I've already voted for Hillary. I see almost no yard signs except for Ron Paul.

To Liz Matheson & Robert Ethan,

You guys really deserve each other.

Go find a room to be bitter and fearful in.

Florida has already started early voting. So has Tennessee. Do the math. Party insiders in Florida have already stated that Hillary is in the lead in Florida due to early voting in that state.

Just because the candidates won't receive any delegates from Florida doesn't mean Florida doesn't matter. All candidates names are still on the ballot in Florida. So it will mean something.

Hey Liz Matheson --

When you mentioned a proclivity for raping white women, I thought you were talking about Bill.


Also, Bag of Health, re: Overtime...Don't forget Maine...We caucus on February 10.

I'm not even going to mention his proclivity for raping white women.

I know this is either a spoof or a moron beyond redemption, but still I'm confused. I thought Bill Clinton was the one who raped white women.

My math skills are less than formidable, and I'm no fan of either Edwards (18% of the vote) or Hillary (27%), but 9 points means that Hillary got 50% more votes than Edwards, which strikes me strikes me as considerably more than "finishing a few points ahead John Edwards..." Had she won the primary with 50% more votes than the second place finisher, it would have been considered an overwhelming victory.

My mental image of Bill and Hillary comes from the Special Olympics.

I have attended a few since our company sponsors them and "hint, hint" managers and above are welcome to volunteer their time.

What I noticed was Special Olympics regulars moaning when they saw some hypercompetitive parent entering a "father-son" "mother-daughter" event with a special athlete. Sure enough, rather than let the kid do their best and be at their side to encourage their best performance at a pace the kid could do...you watched these parents sort of ruin it for their kid and other families by making it all about winning...sometimes literally picking the kid up or sprinting the wheelchair across the finish line...

Then there is the Father that regularly enters marathons and pushes his profoundly disabled
son, who doesn't seem that aware of where he is, to wheelchair "victories."

Bill Clinton is sorta in that role, and unlike the Special Olympics that sort of had to grimace and hand out the self-esteem trophy to the win at all costs parent (oh, and to the kid they dragged to victory as an afterthought), voters had a choice in approving or disapproving of his act.

Yes, Bill is saddled with a politically unappetising wife. Intelligent, but with zero charisma and a voice and personality that grates on people. But he wants that victory so much that he is trying to scoop her up and carry her - right up to the White House steps and to power he believes she and he deserve, again..lugging her in a wheelbarrow if voters will let him. Which, if South Carolina is an indicator, they don't seem ready to do....nor allow Bill to bypass the 22nd Amendment.

To Liz:

I'm not even going to mention his proclivity for raping white women.

Ummm...you just did.

Marc: I agree with pretty much everything in your post except for this:

Finishing a low second and a few points ahead John Edwards is a tough truth for Hillary Clinton to confront. The campaign predicted they'd finish second but did not believe that Edwards would come as close as he did.

My sense is there was a real fear a few days ago amongst the Clintonistas that Hillary could finish third to Edwards. Not only would that result have really been a bloody nose for her campaign (helping to spread doubts, etc., on the eve of Super Tuesday), it would have plausibly kept John Edwards in the running.

Clinton can't be happy about placing so far behind Obama in votes, but she has to be able to take significant solace in the fact that, for all intents and purposes, John Edwards's campaign is effectively over. It's a two person race. And that's good news for Hillary Clinton.

My math skills are less than formidable, and I'm no fan of either Edwards (18% of the vote) or Hillary (27%), but 9 points means that Hillary got 50% more votes than Edwards, which strikes me strikes me as considerably more than "finishing a few points ahead John Edwards..." Had she won the primary with 50% more votes than the second place finisher, it would have been considered an overwhelming victory.


Posted by Selden


So this means that the candidate who won the primary with over 100% more votes than the second place finisher . . .

Anthony Lorenzo - You say Florida will mean something because all the candidates' names are on the ballot. Nice. I suppose the Florida vote is an interesting straw poll to see where the candidates are before they campaign. How big a lead does the initial front-runner and person with the best name recognition have? That's the deficit her challengers are making up in all the states where they CAN campaign.

In Iowa and South Carolina, Obama overcame big Clinton leads in the polls. By campaigning.

(1) He was accepted into Columbia and Harvard because of affirmative action (not academic merit).

You have to be extremely booksmart -- even by Harvard Law standards -- to make Law Review. I don't like Obama, I think he's full of b.s. But he couldn't have made Law Review at Harvard on Affirmative Action.

"Forget the racial and gender demographics. A big win is a big win."

That's up to the individual voters to decide. It's not something you can just declare. There's a difference between 'media narratives' and reality.

Voters are noticeably disgusted by the Clintons' shameless tactics. To see Bill Clinton go as far as trying to reduce Barack Obama to "just a black candidate" at the behest of his wife is nothing short of revolting, even by Clinton standards. These tactics are staining the Clintons' already-dismal favorability levels, and may very well spell the end of their quest for a third term in the White House.

I don't know how you guys can delude yourself about South Carolina not being a race based election. The numbers are there for all to see.

That is bound to have repurcussions down the road for Obama. Not just among whites, but among all non blacks. Other minorities are far less likely to vote for a candidate who represents the interests of a specific group than whites, who are more likely to be able to afford the luxury of assuaging their guilt.

South Carolina has spoken. The rest of the nation will answer soon enough.

And where do you get "represents the interests of a specific group" from, Robert?

Those of you that think this was simply a race based win might want to take a gander at the county by county results...in SC and the other states...

The SC county by county:
http://www.state.sc.us/cgi-bin/scsec/scsec-demprisw-012608.pl

The Clintons lost every county...those that Obama didn't win went to Edwards...EXCEPT one...Horry County which looks to be the rich, coastline, Myrtle Beach type.

The Clintons were roundly spanked...statewide...bar the rich enclave...wonder why that is?


It's still a very long row to hoe for Obama, but win or lose, he will have accomplished a great deal if DC takes note of how badly ALL the conventional wisdom is viewed across the country.

Obama may lose. But in doing what he's doing, he's helping American citizens far more than the Clintons ever have.


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"We can no longer afford to build ourselves up by tearing someone else down. We can no longer afford to traffic in lies or fear or hate." Barack Obama

Vote hope, not fear. Vote unite, not divide and conquer.

Amid all the knee jerk euphoria a note of realism although mark seems to be contradicting himself a bit. How long ago do you think it was the Clinton realised they were going to lose SC. I'd say months but certainly 30-60 days. If anyone thinks their strategy over that time is the result of Bill blundering around they have no idea of how politics functions. Obama won SC because he won 80% of the black vote which is 53% of voters. There is clearly going to be a huge turnout in FL and Clinton will win big probably. If she doesn't then it's time to revisit the electoral equation. Elections are won by coalitions and a ground game to get your coalition to the polls. We know what the respective coalitions are because they have been more or less the same in every election so far. Personally I think the Clintons have completely out maneuvered Obama. She's going to win big in FL and probably 18 or 19 of the super Tuesday contests.