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Uncommitted In Michigan: An Alternate View

16 Jan 2008 08:03 pm

From reader Michael Simon:

I have to respectfully disagree with your assertion that the fact that 45% of Michigan Democrats voted for Uncommitted over Hillary Clinton "is not all that significant." It completely blew expectations out of the water, shocked the organizers of the Uncommitted movement, which sprung up in only about two weeks, and disappointed the Hillary folks in Michigan, who were extremely nervous about getting less than 60% of the vote.

A long series of articles over the course of the past week have talked
about the low-end 60% bar for Hillary, and pollsters, political
scientists, and pundits in Michigan said that anything less than 60%
for Hillary would be shocking. For example, see:

*Detroit News: "Pollsters say N.Y. senator may face embarrassment if
she falls below 60% against 'uncommitted' on Dems' ballot."
http://detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080114/POLITICS/801140354/1022

*Huffington Post: "[Political Science Professor Stewart] French, who
specializes in political parties and elections, considers 60 percent
to be the threshold for declaring a Clinton victory. But such a win
will be hollow."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/hillary-clinton-michigan-campaign

*NPR: "Election experts have said that if Clinton doesn't get at least
60 percent of the votes cast, it would be a black eye for her
campaign."
http://www.npr.org/blogs/news/2008/01/michigan_democrats_want_uncomm.html

*The Jackson Citizen Patriot: "The impact of this vote is limited,
but...[w]hat if she wins Michigan with only 60 percent of the vote?
How will the pundits -- and more, important, donors to her and Obama's
campaign -- react?"
http://www.mlive.com/elections/index.ssf/2008/01/democratic_primary_still_worth_1.html

You get the point...

Additionally, to say that the exit polls show that Hillary still would
have won with a double-digit margin isn't quite accurate. A vote for
Hillary in the Michigan Primary should not be given the same weight as
an Uncommitted vote. Clearly asking someone to turn out and vote for
an actual living, breathing candidate is radically different from
asking them to turn out and vote for Uncommitted. Given how difficult
the concept of the delegate race, seating at the convention, etc.,
etc., is to even people who are political geeks like you and I, you
can imagine how this just doesn't translate to your average voter.

Thus, the sample of voters that showed up to vote in the Caucus is
extraordinarily skewed towards Hillary -- she was the only candidate
of any significance on the ballot, and I can't think of any other
incident in recent political history where something like this
happened (and Ben Smith at Politico seems to agree, saying "[t]here's
no real precedent for this vote."
[http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0108/Michigan_results.html]) I
know that the folks involved in the "Uncommitted" effort were shocked
by the result. Certainly they had no money to do any polling, but
didn't expect to even clear the 15% viability threshold in all but a
couple of Congressional Districts. In the end, were Michigan's
delegates to be seated, they would be almost evenly split between
Hillary and Uncommitted.

Comments (9)

How weird!
We now have Michael Simon quoting pollsters' opinions as if they were facts.
Whew.

We all have our own brains. Let's do the math.

The "uncommitted" crew broadcast their desire to turn a meaningless vote into an opportunity to publicly humiliate Hillary Clinton.

But, what we all discovered instead was:
Obama PLUS Edwards DOES NOT EQUAL Hillary!

Pushing this line of reasoning (it's called "spin") -- be you pollster, Obama supporter, Edwards supporter, whatever...
Well, it makes you sound like Karl Rove (in other words, like an idiot).

Er, Jan, there was a decent amount of talk to the effect that the bar for Hillary in MI was in the low 60s. I wouldn't quite call it the gospel truth, but it does look like she underperformed. Crowing about a close Clinton majority going up against Kuchinich, Mike Gravel and "Uncommitted"? Thou doth protest too much...

Besides, haven't the other states thus far in fact demonstrated that Obama + Edwards > Hillary? (And in Iowa, either one > Hillary.) Unless you can point me to a non-plurality Clinton victory that I've missed. Other than MI, of course.

Whatever you want to say about pollster opinion, the fact is that an average (the RCP average) showed that Clinton would get around 55% of the vote.... she got 54 in the end. The more surprising fact is that Uncommitted got 40% of the vote.. It pretty much grabed all the undecided voters... I don't think this primary was "shocking" news in anyway. This was not a wake up call. Most people in the know knew that Obama was capturing a large percentage of the African American vote. This has not changed. All we know now is that Obama should easily win South Carolina. A win by Clinton in Nevada would really put Obama on the edge (not "kill" his candidacy as he has got dough and a base) because it could signal his inability to get the necessary amount of Latino voters he needs in order to win states like California. Obama could sweep through south like a big wheel in a Delta cotton field (thank you Dan Rather), but he would not be able to win the nomination. That said, he would stay in it for a while. A Nevada win by him could signal big problems for Clinton down the road in California....

And if Edwards wins... I don't know what it means.

You make it sound as if Hillary was there campaigning non stop for the past few months. No one campaigned there, few voters showed up, and many of those that did were part of that late blooming "VOTE UNCOMMITTED" agenda.

All Michigan does is basically underline what the nation as a whole would do if there was no strenuous face to face campaigning by any of the candidates. Which will be the case much of the rest of the way, since time and money have to be stretched out over 40 odd states yet to vote.

Obama and Edwards spent the equivalent of 3 FULL MONTHS in Iowa and probably half their budget there. It was the second time round for Edwards as well. There is no other state that either will be able to spend even a fraction of that time or money. Half for a single state containing 1% of the electorate. The other half has to be spread between around 47 states containing the remaining 99% if the voters.

BTW - Ben Smith is a blatant Obama buttkisser, so his word is worth absolutely nothing in any Dem political discussion.

Take a look at Wayne County's Democratic and Republican results. Home to the city of Detroit, it is split racially very evenly. Romney outpolled McCain by something like 20 points, so that tells me that most of the Democrats in the county did not cross over. Yet Hillary still beat uncommitted here 50-45, and this is the home base of the Conyers who were the most vocal supporters of the uncommitted movement (and by proxy Obama) even going so far as to air ads.

So, in a county whose Democratic primary is probably close to 50% black (if not higher), Hillary still wins by a 5 point margin. To me, that says where there is a lot of black pressure to vote for Obama, there will be a white backlash to support Hillary (and to a lesser degree among white men, Edwards).

South Carolina may be black enough to give Obama a comfortable margin, and because Edwards is strong there and has spent a lot of money, he will get a lot of voters that would probably choose Hillary in a two person race. But go to other places that are whiter (California for example) and I think Obama will have a hard time surviving a polarizing race that divides along racial lines.

Is it Obama's fault? Not completely. Most of the damage will be done by the media and his own supporters (witness the Rev. Joseph Lowery today say that blacks who don't support Obama have a 'slave mentality') but Obama was also eager to remind people after his Iowa win that "most people in Iowa don't look like him" which I assume doesn't mean look like they are from Kansas.

The only places that uncommitted actually outpolled Hillary (albeit barely) were the whiter Detroit suburbs, but they also had good showings for McCain which tells me that their primary was probably blacker than on average as white Dems/independents crossed over to support McCain in a race that actually mattered.

Due to a reserve of loyalty that still exists in the black community, I believe Hillary will ultimately pull at least 20% of the black vote in a place like South Carolina. The more the conservative Southern whites that vote in Democratic primaries in the South hear people like Lowery describe those who oppose Obama as having a "slave mentality" the more they will polarize in favor of the white candidates. Can Hillary consolidate enough of them from Edwards to actually outpoll Obama (probably not, but the more the media reports on Obama dominating black voters the more whites will probably line up behind a single alternative).

This will be an interesting dynamic that begins to play out, particularly in white states like Oklahoma which have a primary, not caucus and which Obama currently polls 3rd place behind Edwards, according to Survey USA. I don't think many Democratic observers have truly internalized this trend (choosing to focus instead on the superficial comments of Bob Johnson and Bill Shaheen instead of the behavioral choices voters are actually making) but if this plays itself out in Democratic primaries, its role in a general election should certainly be examined, particularly by those who feel that Obama has some sort of built-in electability advantage against Clinton.

Jeffrey, sorry but this kind of rhetoric deems your comments full of baloney in my universe:

"Crowing about a close Clinton majority going up against Kuchinich, Mike Gravel and "Uncommitted"? Thou doth protest too much..."

"Crowing"?
I "doth protest too much"???

I teach math.
I did the math.
Get a life.

Are you Clinton wierdos kidding me? Who the hell besides Clinton fans would even show up to pull a lever at this thing? I'll tell you who: committed Democrats who are so ANTI-Clinton that they would go out of their way to go to the polls and cast an "anybody but her" vote, that's who.

Republicans and independents probably didn't even bother. Some Democrats might have even voted strategically in the Republican primary. Yet with Clinton supporters obviously turning out, they couldn't even get SIXTY PERCENT of that vote?!

I don't care who Simon quotes to support his premise that this is significant. It is so obviously significant, so obviously embarassing to Clinton that pointing it out is like "claiming" that birds can fly. HRC sucks so bad that nearly half of the voters who showed up did so ONLY to voice their disapproval. This in a place where most eligible voters probably haven't even heard that you can do such a thing.

You absolutely have to be speaking out of your neck to argue that this phenomenon has no meaning.

I'm not a statistician, but it seems rather significant that many people took the time to get to the polling place and vote "uncommitted" even though the names of the other candidates did not appear on the ballot. There is a stronger pull to vote for a specific person than to vote for "null." Seems like a pretty strong turnout for "not Hillary" to me given the fact that there was less incentive to vote for your own candidate.

Jan, I'd like to keep this civil, so please let me offer you examples of "rhetoric" - in your own words.

The "uncommitted" crew broadcast their desire to turn a meaningless vote into an opportunity to publicly humiliate Hillary Clinton.

Well, it makes you sound like Karl Rove (in other words, like an idiot).

Again, please drop me a line when Hillary wins more than a plurality in a state with, you know, actual competition on the ballot. I certainly hope you aren't teaching your students that faulty Hillary > (Edwards + Obama) equation, 'cause so far the math just doesn't work. ;)