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Pondering Clinton's Place

26 Feb 2008 09:38 am

The “HRC can come back” bandwagon is rolling through town, and I spent a long time yesterday contemplating whether to jump on board. But the platform on which her supporters stand right now seems more tenuous by the day.

It is very difficult, from the standpoint of politics, of delegate mathematics, and of the news media, to envision a scenario where Hillary Clinton not only recovers her momentum but actually finds a way to obtain a delegate lead -- just about the only way she can possibly convince the party that she deserves time to make her case for the nomination.

At best, there are shots at an extreme angle, the sort of devil-may-do existentialities that are common to all endeavors -- Obama could call Clinton a cuss word on stage, etc. Something like this might happen; we’ve seen a heck of a lot of black swans this cycle. But there’s no way to plan for it, and the more obvious it becomes that you’re just in it to wait for one, the less viable you really are.

The delegate math works against her; that is obvious and evident every time you look at it. Recouping 100 earned delegates from Obama will be next to impossible unless she sweeps the remaining contests and earns more than 60% of the vote in each of them. Even then, she may have a deficit, depending on who’s counting. (If Puerto Rican Democrats follow their own rules, all the delegates will not magically accrue to a single candidate.)

There is a distinction between super delegates and earned delegates, even if their vote counts the same.

Based on conversations with neutral super delegates and a brief perusal of history, it seems extremely unlikely that the mass of undecided super delegates are willing to play a Gary Hart-quashing role they did in 1984. The reason why many of them remain undecided today is that they are afraid to cross the Clintons so long as there’s a tiny chance that the Clintons might win.

The Clinton campaign has been accused of moving the goal posts every time they fail to reach a previously promised threshold, but the goal posts, right now, are at the back of the stadium. They can’t be moved any further back without bringing the whole thing down. It’s unlikely that the news media, more pro-Obama than anti-Hillary, would give any credence to another attempt to push the contest into April. And, come to think it, there’s no energy left on the Clinton campaign to do, either.

Advisers figure that a loss in Texas is as likely as a win in Ohio; a large number of staffers appear to be willing to quit en masse next Wednesday if there’s a split decision and Clinton gives notice that she intends to fight for another month.

And what of Clinton herself? To borrow my favorite Christian heresy metaphor, many in the political world are Manicheans when it comes to her motives. Either she is entirely evil and devious or she is totally pure and misunderstand. Her actions to date suggest that she is more aware of her surroundings that people give her credit for. She does not seem to want to hurt the party; she does not want to jeopardize Obama in November -- yes, yes, I know, 2012 and all that, but she also knows that the truth is, her political career would not be over if she were to concede the nomination gracefully, only that part of it that has depended, for better or worse, on her husband.

This is not to say that the only logical course of action would be for her to quit. It's just that, as she answers questions during tonight's debate, she may, once again, have two different audiences in mind.

Comments (79)

"Black swans"? Did you just say that? What exactly, in a political context, does a "black swan" refer to? I've never heard this allusion before, and I've been around for a while.

I'm sorry, but I have to object to this notion that the "news media" is one of the factors suggesting she can't get back into this race. The news media is the only reason she is still in this race. She has lost 11 consecutive contests, each by no less than 17 points. As you point out, there is virtually no mathematical possibility she can catch up in pledged delegates; at this point, it appears she will be fortunate if she nets 20 delegates after March 4. A competent news media would have pointed this out every single day; yet Chuck Todd of MSNBC seems to be the only one actually crunching the numbers. And yet, to the news media, it's still a horse race if Clinton wins by 5% in Ohio?

Finally, it wasn't the news media who went on the "shame on you" tirade on Saturday. It wasn't the news media who went on the "skies will open" nonsense on Sunday. It wasn't the media who has written off various states (caucus, red, small, whatever) as insignificant.

By 'black swans' I believe Marc was referring to the possibility of an entirely unpredicted, game-changing event (see book of that title by Taleb).

I like Howard Dean's idea that if it's still close by the time the convention rolls around they'll just sit down and talk it out...

http://www.marbury.typepad.com

Oh, come on! Dude, you're so in the tank!

Clinton benefited from almost a year of favorite coverage, where every single news anchor and/or correspondent said that she HAD the nomination, it was over, wrapped up, etc. it drove me nuts because i felt like they were in the tank for her.

but once she started losing, they tended to shift to Obama--not out of favoritism, i think, just because the average pundit DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING and all want to be seen correctly predicting the winner.

Clinton can't win this, she can't, short of some Obama implosion. its all a matter of how long she drags this out.

South Side:
You are right. The media only wants this thing to go on longer to get more ad money out of Hillary's campaign. They don't want the gravy train to end. Why do you think they love primary season? I am just surprised they didn't help keep Mittens propped up a little longer so they could get their hands on more of Tagg's inheritance.

This race is over!


The more HRC talks (yells) the crazier she sounds. She has absolutely no clue at all what this race is all about!


She keeps preaching "experience" when people want "change." She claims to know how to "work the levers" in Washington even though we all know the levers are broken!


She appears to be irrational, unstable, and desperate (with a split personality thrown in for good measure)...


"I'm proud to be on the stage with you"...


"Shame on you"...


"Let's have a real campaign"...


"I'm mean, let's have a smear campaign in which I accuse you of being a radical Muslim and circulate photos of you dressed like the Taliban."


I keep waiting for the total meltdown when her head starts to spin and she keeps repeating, "SHAME ON YOU, AMERICA!" "VOTE FOR ME!" "SHAME ON YOU, AMERICA!" "VOTE FOR ME!" "SHAME ON YOU, AMERICA!" "VOTE FOR ME!" "SHAME ON YOU, AMERICA!" "VOTE FOR ME!"


She's run a crazy campaign with no rhyme or reason. How can we possibly trust her to run our country???

This is perhaps the first article you have written in the last 3-5 months that has any trace of independent thought and due diligence to it.
Unfortunately, doing it once doesn't make it a trend. Will be sad to have to wait till May-Aug. for the next OK one.

"Based on conversations with neutral super delegates and a brief perusal of history, it seems extremely unlikely that the mass of undecided super delegates are willing to play a Gary Hart-quashing role they did in 1984."

Unless accounts of 1984 I've read recently are wrong, you have this exactly backwards. The superdelegates are in fact going to do exactly what they did in 1984 which is push the candidate with a pledged delegate lead but lacking a majority over the top to win the nomination. Hart was behind in pledged delegates but Mondale didn't have a majority but won the nomination when the superdelegates ratified his candidacy. The superdelegates will do the same thing soon for Obama unless Clinton actually drops out after March 4 and Obama wins virtually all the remaining delegates thereby getting to the magic number with pledged delegates.

"Her actions to date suggest that she is more aware of her surroundings that people give her credit for. She does not seem to want to hurt the party; she does not want to jeopardize Obama in November"

We are clearly watching two different campaigns. Unless you think she's lying about trying to get MI (yay! Banana Republic!) and FL seated that will destroy the party but clearly she couldn't care less.

Not to mention the smears and slurs spread about Obama and any person that votes for him or state that he wins.

Jesus Christ, quit with the Puerto Rican thing.

There is precisely no evidence that the big bad Puerto Rican Democratic machine doesn't hold real elections and just gives all delegates to one candidate.

Michael Barone admitted to the Washington Post that this claim was entirely based on looking at what happened in the last two elections - i.e. what happened in Puerto Rico's June caucuses in 2000 and 2004, years when the nominee was already determined.

In 2004, every other contest held after Super Tuesday also gave all of its delegates to John Kerry, except for North Carolina, which John Edwards won, and Oregon, where Dennis Kucinich managed to secure a few delegates.

Does Pennsylvania have a tradition of giving all its delegates to one candidate as well?

So, please, everybody, either provide some actual support for this beyond the idle words of Michael Barone, or stop saying this. It's obnoxious and arguably borderline offensive (Oh, look at those Puerto Ricans and their authoritarian banana republic!)

i really hope that Obama doesnt allow himself to be pushed around in tonight's debate.

i dont like how passive he can be in response to her onslaughts. i dont think he's weak, but i'm getting tired of him just shrugging his shoulders and talking about how "confused" or "sad" he is at these attacks. he should call it for what it is: hypocritical, and then he should lay out the numerous reasons why.

that said, he's beginning to do it, (finally hitting her on this "35 years of experience" and not being able to have it both ways), but that stuff gets mentioned on the stump, he hasnt done it in debates yet.

now is the time not to be pushed around, or let the american people think she wants it more than he does.

South Side is exactly right in saying that HRC wouldn't be in the race at all if it weren't for the media's fascination with the Clintons and its desire to keep the "horse race" aspect of this story alive. These are the only things that prevent Hillary Clinton from being treated the same way as Mike Huckabee, who likewise continues to gain delegates and get the occasional primary victory, but who cannot possibly win the nomination. You don't read or hear anything about how Huckabee still has a shot; the stories all say he's nothing more than an annoyance to McCain at this point. Yet Hillary Clinton is still viewed as a serious candidate who has a chance to win the nomination. Yes, I realize that the superdelegates make it a bit different on the Dem side. But if Hillary Clinton were anyone else, she wouldn't be getting debates and she wouldn't be receiving any serious media attention, given the circumstances.

@KathyF: A "black swan" is a completely unexpected distortion of something normal, originates from english settlers going to Australia and seeing black swans for the first time. It basically means unexpected and strange in this usage.

In terms of the article, I think the analysis is mostly correct, but I'd have to say that the media is pretty Anti-Hillary, but its not unfair. They love trashing her because everyone does - she has the highest negatives of any candidate in recent history. It gets listeners/readers/viewers, because it is in line with the opinion of the masses. The coallescing of support around Obama now that Hillary has lost her aura of inevitability and confidence clearly shows this. If I were Hillary, I would pull out now or soon, setting up for a run later on. She's only 60, which is practically juvenile in politics terms. Unless you're a phenomenon...

Puerto Rico went for Jessie Jackson, both times if i'm not mistaken, against the wishes of the PR machine.

i wonder if we'll hear this from Bill Clinton, should it get that far.

First of all, the news media aside, the only reason any candidate ever drops out is because of money. The problem for Clinton is that if she doesn't win Texas & Ohio, no one will continue to fund her, even passionate small donors, at least fund her at a level that would allow her even a shred of competitiveness against an Obama financial onslaught in Pennsylvania.

Further, so long as we are pretending as if perception no longer matters and that only the "cold, hard delegate math" does, it is worth noting that no candidate officially has any delegates until the roll of state delegations is called during the convention on the night of Aug. 28th. Every delegate up 'til then is sort of penciled in. Clinton's strategy is simple -- play for time and generate her own momentum going into the summer months. If Clinton pulls off a string of victories (not impossible and in fact likely if she were to manage a Pennsylvania win) by June you'll have to wonder how people will perceive the two candidacies. Will Obama's February still seem that conclusive if Clinton has a strong May/June? It's an open question. Which is why the Clinton folks still think they have a window if they can pull of the TX-OH double win.

"Either she is entirely evil and devious or she is totally pure and misunderstand. Her actions to date suggest that she is more aware of her surroundings that people give her credit for. She does not seem to want to hurt the party; she does not want to jeopardize Obama in November."

In other words, according to Marc, Clinton is totally pure (she does not want to hurt the party or Obama) and misunderstood (people do not give her credit for this).

And here I thought Marc was criticizing the Manicheans. It turns out that he likes the idea, and thinks one side is right.

Sweet! My first impostor. 9:51 shall live in infamy.

Good post, Marc, and one I imagine must have been pretty tough for you to write. A couple questions, though. First, what led you to this particular point in time to reassess your candidate? With the exception of various unfavorable polls, and the Texas early voting patterns, I don't see anything present today that hasn't been present for a while.

Second, who exactly is manning the "HRC can come back" wagon train? I know there's Hillary, and presumably Bill, and ... who else exactly? I don't mean this snarkily, but I'm really not aware of any serious discussion about how Hillary has any reasonable chance to win the nomination without some pretty major shenanigans.

Finally, I think Jay (at 10:07) has it exactly right. Solid post up until that point, and then it went pretty much off the rails. But no matter, batting .750 isn't bad at all!

Anyway, welcome back to reality, Marc. Sorry about your candidate -- I've been through it not once, but twice this election season, and I know how much it hurts. (Plus there's the whole "being a Democrat" thing, which has led to no shortage of electoral heartbreak my entire adult life.) In any event, here's to more blogging like this.

I'm from England.
From where we stand, it would seem like any delegate is welcome for the nomination against what you have at the moment?

It seems people are bored of Clinton, perhaps that is her greatest downfall, people know her, they know her life and her positives and negatives...
She has been in the public eye in the USA and in England for the past 20 years pretty much.
This is a shame because it would seem that familiarity breeds contempt. You know she's right, but you are sick of her face.

The real question that faces America is this:
Are you really prepared to put all your trust in somebody who looks and sounds good, but somebody who, in relation to Clinton, you know precious little about?... I'm afraid Britain made that mistake 11 years ago and we are still paying the price.

What I find interesting is that there's all this talk about the media being pro-Obama -- which (in some cases -- eg Chris Matthews, Frank Rich) they have been.

However, CNN is a virtual CLinton mouthpiece. And the main "supposedly objective" blogger/pundits -- Ambinder, Ben Smith and Halperin -- all seem to be more sympathetic to Hillary, or at least constantly spilling Clinton-generated leaks, and regurgitating Clinton spin.

"her political career would not be over if she were to concede the nomination gracefully, only that part of it that has depended, for better or worse, on her husband."

Wow Marc, there's the elephant in the room no one has honestly discussed. Hillary got this far because of her husband. Hillary is allowed to go on after 11 loses because of her husband. What was wrong with her campaign from the beginning was that it depended on husband. And when it's over - perhaps, we will clearly see Hillary without her husband.

But don't be surprised if having a "political career" is NOT what she has in mind, seeing as from the beginning all her political moves have been solely about getting back into the White House.

Nico- it's called HOPE and CHANGE and we are absolutely ready for it in this country!

It's time for the next generation to take this country on a new course--The Clinton's have had their time and now it's OUR time! Let's do this Texas and Ohio-We're all watching you.

And the main "supposedly objective" blogger/pundits -- Ambinder, Ben Smith and Halperin -- all seem to be more sympathetic to Hillary, or at least constantly spilling Clinton-generated leaks, and regurgitating Clinton spin.

At least as far as Ambinder goes, I don't think his main problem is that he wants to see Hillary elected (though that is, I think, quite obvious.) His reporting suffers because he seems to have a relatively limited number of sources, which are concentrated in just a few campaigns, and consequently his coverage is overly credulous of what those sources are telling him. Witness the past several weeks of Hillary talking points reported without context, and the McCain blowout extravaganza from earlier this week.

Plus Marc has lately tended to post without much critical analysis or context or background, but let's hope this post is a sign of change for the better.

But hey, even Marc's few sources are way more than I've got, so that why I'm here.

Thanks, Thomas and marbury, I'd never heard of that usage before. And coming right after the sentence "Obama might cuss her out" made it seem really odd. (Okay, racist.) I see black swans all the time, here in England, so I cannot imagine them to be odd in any way!

Nico, are you suggesting that Britain should have stuck with John Major? Right; there's a good idea! Better yet, we could still have Maggie back!

actually the news media - particularly MSNBC are bending do far over backwards to please Sen Clinton (since the Shuster flap) that they have had an inverse reaction
---
They do not ask Clinton surrogates hard questions and suddenly on Morning Joe - Hillary Clinton is the new new thing --
---
What I want to know is watching John Harwood right now he says that at the debate tonight Sen Clinton has to emphasize her "superior judgement on
foreign policy as well as her command of economic issues". Further Harwood says "Clinton has to assure voters she can do for the economy the same thing her husband did for the economy is the 90's"
------------------
SO MY QUESTION as a voter is:
(a) what "superior" judgement on foreign policy?
Voting for Iraq was resolution?
Supporting the Iran guard as a terrorist organization?
Missing the FISA vote - even though she was physically in Washington DC?
(b) economy of the '90's arguable surged through three things:
(i)NAFTA: which certainly short term helped the economy but now is a bug a boo - esp in Ohio
(ii) Robert Rubin: was a genius in the 1990s but a dog now - having helped Citibank collapse
(iii) advent of the internet - and how that drove the ecomony
----------------------
----------------------
THANK GOODNESS - David Gregory just said -- "let be honest about this - Sen Clinton has political experience but that's it" and that the "first lady" is technically not involved in policy making

---
So if the Hillary bandwagon can answer these questions factually - maybe they stand a chance -- the problem is that Hillary Clinton does not have the experience or the judement to be POTUS
and that - along with a terrible campaign -- highlighted by the mocking of the Obama supporters this week)has been a disaster

Time for the democrats to unite - and focus on a Nov win

actually the news media - particularly MSNBC are bending do far over backwards to please Sen Clinton (since the Shuster flap) that they have had an inverse reaction
---
They do not ask Clinton surrogates hard questions and suddenly on Morning Joe - Hillary Clinton is the new new thing --
---
What I want to know is watching John Harwood right now he says that at the debate tonight Sen Clinton has to emphasize her "superior judgement on
foreign policy as well as her command of economic issues". Further Harwood says "Clinton has to assure voters she can do for the economy the same thing her husband did for the economy is the 90's"
------------------
SO MY QUESTION as a voter is:
(a) what "superior" judgement on foreign policy?
Voting for Iraq was resolution?
Supporting the Iran guard as a terrorist organization?
Missing the FISA vote - even though she was physically in Washington DC?
(b) economy of the '90's arguable surged through three things:
(i)NAFTA: which certainly short term helped the economy but now is a bug a boo - esp in Ohio
(ii) Robert Rubin: was a genius in the 1990s but a dog now - having helped Citibank collapse
(iii) advent of the internet - and how that drove the ecomony
----------------------
----------------------
THANK GOODNESS - David Gregory just said -- "let be honest about this - Sen Clinton has political experience but that's it" and that the "first lady" is technically not involved in policy making

---
So if the Hillary bandwagon can answer these questions factually - maybe they stand a chance -- the problem is that Hillary Clinton does not have the experience or the judement to be POTUS
and that - along with a terrible campaign -- highlighted by the mocking of the Obama supporters this week)has been a disaster

Time for the democrats to unite - and focus on a Nov win

I have seen both of them speak and I was going to vote for Obama until I saw Clinton. They have a real plan to bring about the kind of change that you all want. The 90s were the largest economic expansion in our lives and the Clinton's can get it done. I saw Barak last night and he has no substance. He will be a good president but we are blowing a great opportunity. Just because Hillary is not "likeable" doesn't mean there will be a problem getting things done. McCain will probably beat barak.

Some Facts:
1. Obama is a black man w/ a strange name (Jon Stewart pointed this out at the Oscars)
2. Obama was virtually unknown to most voters before January
3. Clinton is married to the one of the most popular former presidents in general, not to mention among Democrats
4. Clinton is known by the entire country and generally beloved among Democrats
5. Clinton was widely reported as the 'inevitable' candidate for the year of this campaign

After starting with such an advantage, receiving the benefit of the doubt on 'experience,' electibability, etc, and then failing to really capitalize on it, no wonder HRC is jeered by the media while amazement is expressed over Obama. It is truly amazing what Obama has done with NOTHING in terms of an advantage. Everywhere he goes, he annihilates HRC's leads. According to Survey USA, he does better vs. McCain in the Feb. 5th states that HRC won (e.g., NY, CA).

Two words characterize HRC's campaign - rejection and letdown. Rejection by the voters, and letdown amongst her supporters. The fact that this is how the reporting is done in the media is more of a reflection of reality than of any bias.

The only way that Hillary has even a chance of changing the trend is to come up with some reason to vote for her that we haven't heard yet. But her campaign doesn't have a clue what this might be, IMO. In fact, they never did have compelling reasons for her candidacy, just the it's-her-turn idea. That might have worked in the GOP, but not with Democrats (thank goodness).

Come on, iflyer, you can do better than "barak." May I suggest "Oprama" or "Nobama"? Comedy gold!

I agree that she has run a terrible campaign.

whoops! lol

Well since practically every one of you want to see Obama elected at least there's balance.

To the extent Clinton got favourable coverage last year was because between January-October she literally didn't make a single mistake of note (unlike everyone's favorite Senator from Illinois). She out-performed her competition in just about every debate (especially Obama) and her team won just about every spin war.

Then she had that waffle on drivers licenses for illegal immigrants in that October 30th debate. I don't think that made a huge impression with primary voters but it gave the media their first opportunity to smack her down. It changed the narrative of the race from inevitability to the stumbling front-runner and Obama made his Oprah-fueled play in Iowa soon after.

Clinton should give it all she's got at tonight's debate and fight this thing through until March 4th... then unless it's a big win for her she should bow out.

I like the idea that's been circulating about making her Majority leader, replacing the ineffectual Harry Reid. Thoughts?


Wow. The difference in media coverage has been so stark and obvious, I sometimes wonder if the Obama fans have had time to get their eyes and ears out of the clouds and actually do a little research on the subject. She "pesters" while he "challenges", when she is up by 200 delegates it is a "near tie and virtual dead heat", when he is up 60, it is a "blowout" and "it's over". Come on folks, even if you are blindly in love with your man, at least try to be open-minded on what has happened in this country. A media "lovefest" with Obama, an artist who paints with words, and a crucifixion of Hillary, because she is a strong, accomplished, hard-working woman with a plan. Just look back at some MSNBC tapes and you'll see the ridiculous "coverage" by our so called media. Or yesterday when she gives a foreign policy speech surrounded by several strong, respected military leaders (with, gasp, experience - that awful “e” word – she has 27 of them endorsing her, BTW) with full media in attendance, not one of the media “journalists” shows it live. You can’t find clips of it anywhere. Had Obama done the same he would have been hailed “our commander in chief” and that headline would have been splashed on every news outlet available. If she doesn't win this on her experience and we elect another "likable" candidate who will "unite the country", because, gee, he says so, I am going to move or at the very least stop watching the media...those so called” journalists”. Goooo Hillary - you rock!

Sunny Florida:

Everything you said was absolutely on point. I'd also add how before Super Tuesday when it looked like Obama may win California that it would be the test of who won the day. Then Clinton won California decisively, and suddenly that didn't matter.

Dear South Side, I am so impressed with your own favoritism towards Obama that you think HRC should drop out. Only these mean-spirited Obama supporters thinks it makes sense that a woman, only behind by 100 pledged delegates should leave the race with the incredible support that she has. Its not foolish, its ignorant, and tied to your own warped sense of what this political process means to all Americans, not you. News flash, there are at times roughly 50 percent of people who are favoring Hillary over Barack, so get over yourself. In addition, the superdelegates role has NEVER been to merely vote for the person who earns one more pledged delegate than the other by the time of the convention. There are party leaders who may in fact support Obama or if close between them could support Hillary. I am so tired of people who only decided to enter politics when Barack Obama entered the process to decide superdelgates were some kind of democratic conspiracy. Then again, the Obama campaign has been very successful in painting this dilemma for Mrs. Clinton, all the while spending (I know she is too) thousands and thousands of dollars to acquire them. This country's loyalty to a particular candidate can be so dangerous and I am tired of the mean-spiritedness and nastiness that I see resonating among Obama supporters every single day.

Tim K, Obama also came out of Super Tuesday with more pledged delegates. I don't think anyone predicted or expected that result ahead of time, and you understand just how striking that was once that fact became apparent. But even if the goal posts shifted, I think Hillary's had her share of benefit from that during the month of February. It cuts both ways.

Sunny Florida:

She "pesters" while he "challenges", when she is up by 200 delegates it is a "near tie and virtual dead heat", when he is up 60, it is a "blowout" and "it's over".

There's a big, big difference between a 200 delegate "lead" among superdelegates before a single voter has cast a ballot, and a 60 delegate lead (with a 150+ delegate lead among pledged delegates) with relatively few contests remaining.

Check out Chuck Todd's work on this point -- the guy's a straight shooter, and I think you'll see that it is very, very, very unlikely for Hillary to close the pledged delegate gap at this point.

Or yesterday when she gives a foreign policy speech surrounded by several strong, respected military leaders (with, gasp, experience - that awful “e” word – she has 27 of them endorsing her, BTW) with full media in attendance, not one of the media “journalists” shows it live. You can’t find clips of it anywhere.

It was a stump speech -- and apparently a quite good one -- billed as a "major" foreign policy address, while it was nothing of the sort. It was, however, available live on cnn.com, among other places.

The news media is the only reason she is still in this race. She has lost 11 consecutive contests, each by no less than 17 points. As you point out, there is virtually no mathematical possibility she can catch up in pledged delegates...

Nonsense. She is "still in the race" because she's a substantive candidate with high name recognition who has won solid victories in California, New York, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, New Hampshire, Nevada, Arkansas, Tennessee and Oklahoma en route to amassing nearly half the total delegates needed to secure the nomination; and she's only slightly behind Obama in the delegate count.

It sure looks like Obama's headed to the nomination. He's certainly got all the momentum. But Clinton is still in it because she could still win. Now, barring a catastrophe for Obama, there's almost no chance she can pass him in pledged delegates. Fortunately for her, she doesn't need to pass him in pledged delegates to win.

I personally think it makes sense for her to exit if she doesn't manage to win both Texas and Ohio (I mean, taking just one of them isn't enough; you can't "trade baskets" when you're behind late in the second half), and I suspect she probably will exit the race -- probably quickly -- if she performs badly next week. But why she would want to exit prior to March 4th -- other than to please Obama fans -- is beyond me. Polls aren't infallible. And I think Bill is probably right: if she wins Texas, Ohio (and Rhode Island) she probably will find a way to secure the nomination (yes, I know, Obamabots, depending on any superdelegate votes to win will cause y'all to stay home, and the world will end, blah blah blah). Again, she's fairly close behind Obama right now, thanks to her double digit wins in a number of large states and the Democratic party's PR system.

Jeff Larson:

Good point about the pledged delegates and Super Tuesday. But Sunny Florida is right about the foreign policy speech.

Remember Obama got to deliver 45 minutes of his stump after he won the Wisconsin primary on all the networks, and there wasn't anything new there. Yes, I know he won the primary, but 45 minutes? Give me a break. That's like a $10 million contribution to his campaign.

When Hillary wins Texas, Ohio, and Rhode Island on March 4th she will be in the drivers seat and the front runner.

At that point, she will have won every 'big state' contest (NY,CA,TX,OH,FL,MI) with the exception of PA - yes I know that MI,FL 'don't count' ...

The delegate count won't matter so long as she finishes

Good job, William. Now just click your heels together and say, 'there's no place like home, there's no place like home'.

Now just click your heels together and say, 'there's no place like home, there's no place like home'.

Funny you say that. Every Halloween I dress up as Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz. My boyfriend normally goes as the Tin Man, although I prefer him as the (not so) Cowardly Lion. Rrrroar!!

Tim K, fair point.

Elgoog:

She is "still in the race" because she's a substantive candidate with high name recognition who has won solid victories in California, New York, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, New Hampshire, Nevada, Arkansas, Tennessee and Oklahoma en route to amassing nearly half the total delegates needed to secure the nomination; and she's only slightly behind Obama in the delegate count.

Impressive list, but if you're going to include Florida, you might as well include Michigan too. And how does that list stack up next to Obama's states?

As far as "slightly" behind goes, well, that depends on the meaning of the word and the context in which it's used. A 60-delegate margin prior to Super Tuesday is close; a 60-delegate margin amidst superdelegate defections with relatively few contests to go is problematic. At this point, there are few, if any, plausible scenarios underwhich Hillary can gain the lead in pledged delegates.

If Hillary wants to win the nomination on the backs of SDs, more power to her -- that's not a race I'd want to run, and the superdelegates probably understand that's not a race they'd be wild about running either.

The reason no one is describing it as close is because it isn't. Obama's double-digit wins in a large number of large, medium, and small states have seen to that.

In an Atlantic / Ambinder blog rendition of The Wizard of Oz, would Tim K be the Wicked Witch of the West?

At that point, she will have won every 'big state' contest (NY,CA,TX,OH,FL,MI) with the exception of PA - yes I know that MI,FL 'don't count' ...

Does anyone want to debate whether it matters that one candidate has won the "big states" in a delegate race? On the one hand, there are some smaller big states that would be nice to win and perhaps primary voter preferences are instructive in that regard, but on the other, I just don't know how applicable preference in a party nominating contest are to the general election.

Plus there's the issue that probably the five biggest states are not likely to swing one way, and among the next group of swing states (OH, PA, MI), I think Dems pretty much have to win two of three. Maybe Hillary is better situated to win those states -- but again, I just don't know how instructive party primaries are with regard to general election prospects. Not very, I suspect.

And I think Bill is probably right: if she wins Texas, Ohio (and Rhode Island) she probably will find a way to secure the nomination

So she'd end up being the first Democratic nominee not to be supported by the majority of actual Democratic voters. Do you actually believe Gore, Dean, Pelosi, etc. would support such an outcome?

Which side were Hillary and Bill on in Bush v. Gore?

Why the hurry to push Clinton out of the race?
As soon as she withdraws, the public interest in the race vanishes. The amount of time that the news media spends on the campaign decreases and we are back to missing white women all day long. No reason to go to any of these big crowd rallies. No reason for people to donate money and get committed. If she had withdrawn when it was first demanded of her, would those students marched to the early voting site in Texas? Both Clinton and Obama are building big ground organizations in Texas -- how can that be a bad thing?
By the time that this is done, Democrats and Independents in almost every state will have had the opportunity to vote in contested primaries. Every Democrat mobilized for the primaries will be more prone to be active in the general. This primary season has been the greatest party-building exercise in my lifetime.
Patience, patience, patience.

Black swans is a reference to philosophy (don't see much of that in politics so the confusion is understandable).

An inductive argument is a case by example. All swans we have seen are white, hence we generalize that all swans are white. But generalization is not proof. We can never prove that all swans are white unless we examine all swans past present and future. However one non white swan is enough to disprove the statement.

When Marc says we have seen a lot of black swans this season, he means that many things that people thought were not possible have happened - the conventional Wisdom has been overturned- Hillary third in Iowa, Hillary wins NH, McCain somehow returning from the dead and emerging unscathed while the rest of the Republican field annihilated one another all about him etc

E

Jane: Bitch is the new Black!

"...her political career would not be over..."

I beg to differ. I don't think Hillary runs for re-election to the US Senate after this term expires. Her whole purpose was to use the Senate seat as a launching pad to the presidency. She doesn't want to be part of this greater deliberative body, on among a hundred, to do the "peoples work." Her singular ambition was to be the Chief Executive...answering to nobody.

Hillary could have returned to Arkansas or Illinois and been elected to the US Senate, where her campaigns would be less expensive and her vote equal to that of a senator from a larger state. But, she chose New York because that is where the money and media are...a calculated and preferrable launching pad to the presidency.

Hillary's record in the Senate isn't one of courageous leadership against the powerful. Sure, she is an advocate for children...duh! Not exactly a profile in courage (like fighting for videotapped confessions).

I don't see Hillary carrying on the banner of healthcare for the 15 million people omitted in future-President Obama's plan.

She is all in...this is it...phooey on 2012! Her dignity or, the good of the Democratic Party? What does she care after being publicly humiliated by Bill Clinton time and again? No, this is it...its all about this moment and time, her power grab. And, if she loses, she and Bill will live largely seperate lives. Chelsea is her refuge...and the public can go to h---...

So she'd end up being the first Democratic nominee not to be supported by the majority of actual Democratic voters. Do you actually believe Gore, Dean, Pelosi, etc. would support such an outcome?

No, on the contrary. I think if she were to win the majority of the remaining pledged delegates (starting with wins in 3 out of 4 next Tuesday) Hillary probably will end up with a slender majority of the popular vote when all is said and done in June. And I think she'd definitely win a majority of "actual Democratic voters" in such a scenario, given Obama's reliance on non-Democrats. I think any scenario whereby Hillary wins the nomination requires her to win a majority of the remaining pledged delegates (so as to cut into Obama's existing lead in pledged delegates). What I don't think such a scenario requires is for her to entirely eliminate his lead (she just has to narrow it substantially) -- especially if more actual people participating in Democratic primaries and caucuses have voted for her.

Again, is any of this probable? Most certainly not. It's hardly impossible, though, given the fact we have already witnessed several shifts of momentum since last summer.

To Nico from England:

What we are experiencing isn't just about a candidate. It is a political awakening. Suddenly a Democratic debate is upstaging American Idol or whatever else has been the topic of the day.

This has not happened in my lifetime and it is so utterly welcomed. Young people are engaged in the process. Obama has the opportunity to coattail a ton of Senators, Congressmen and local officials to wipe away the stain of our last decade of decline.

Hope trumps fear today.

elgoog - Barring some major (and I mean major) gaffe by Obama, it's really not feasible for Clinton to even significantly narrow Obama's lead in pledged delegates; at least not to below 100. He's up by about 160 right now, and come Tuesday, the lead probably won't narrow by any more than 25, if that. Vermont and Rhode Island will probably cancel each other out, and Clinton probably won't gain more than 15 delegates in Ohio. Given the trendlines in Texas, she might even lose the same amount of delegates there.

So even giving Clinton the benefit of the doubt in Ohio and Texas, she'll still be behind by 135+ delegates after Tuesday. Her next "firewall" of Pennsylvania could net her 20 delegates, but Mississippi and North Carolina will effectively negate that. Honestly, her best case scenario over the next two months is essentially a stalemate. Dragging this on without any conclusion will only hurt the Dem's chances this year.

"Sen. Clinton, why have you refused to release your tax returns as Sen. Obama has...

- so the people can grasp who gave you the 5 million you "loaned yourself"

- and the donors to your husband's library?

- or what are you hiding as a team [this time]?"

"Sen. Clinton, why have you refused to release your tax returns as Sen. Obama has...

- so the people can grasp who gave you the 5 million you "loaned yourself"

- and the donors to your husband's library?

- or what are you hiding as a team [this time]?"

The problem for Clinton in Texas is in the proportional delegate awarding system. She can win 55% of the popular vote yet still get a minority of delegates. The demographics of the individual districts in Texas even make this a plausible outcome. http://www.electoral-vote.com/ has a great analysis of what could happen. He says, "But the bottom line is simple: Hillary Clinton is about 100 delegates behind Obama at the moment, depending who is doing the counting. To pick up a net of half of that in Texas would require a Clinton landslide of a scale we haven't seen anywhere yet just due to the way the rules work. Although Hillary needs a landslide and she may not even get a victory. Three new polls show a close race there, possibly with Obama a bit ahead."

Let's see if MSNBC will show some backbone tonight and ask Clinton these questions:

1. Explain why it is okay to release your tax returns AFTER nomination but not now?

2. As senators, your campaigns are the largest things either of you has ever run. Senator Clinton, your campaign' strategy and financial management are riddled with failure. Doesn't this demonstrate Senator Obama as the better executive?

3. Senator Clinton, did you or did you not support NAFTA's passage during your husband's administration?

4. Senator Clinton, Harold Ickes said that super-delegates should not overturn a decision of the voters if it is beyond just a few votes. If Senator Obama maintains a 100+ pledged delegate count after March 4 will you concede that the super-delegates should vote for him?

I am tired of the media being called pro-Obama and anti-Clinton. If Williams and Russert were serious journalists they would press these four very legitimate questions tonight.

MarkV, I scrolled all the way down here to point out exactly those points, but you beat me to it!

Yeah, for a press that supposedly hates her, they sure are giving her an easy ride.

Impressive list, but if you're going to include Florida, you might as well include Michigan too. And how does that list stack up next to Obama's states?

Jeff Larson: I don't include Michigan because Obama's name wasn't on the ballot. I include Florida not only because both candidates' names were on the ballot, but also because they both had active surrogate campaigns in the state, and because Obama had made major ad buys in the state, and because turnout in Florida's Democratic primary was larger, proportionally, than in New York, and that is indicative of an energized, engaged electorate. Obviously including Michigan would make the numbers look still better for Hillary Clinton.

Clearly, Georgia must annex Alabama, the Carolinas must combine, Delmarva must become more than just a funny word, Wisconsin and Minnesota must combine to form the largest Scandinavian country in the world, and Washington and Oregon have to get over arguing who is hipper and hates Californians more. Because the foolish way in which they have drawn their state boundaries means they currently all don't count for spit.

I think the comment making the point about Clinton having a path to the nomination through a combination of Super Delegates and a MI/FL play makes a fundamentally erroneous assumption.

It discounts what's already happened. A 64% Obama win in Virginia sweeping almost all demographics. A 58% Obama win in Wisconsin sweeping almost every last demographic. Decisive Obama wins in crucial "Clinton friendly states" like Maine and Washington.

Clinton won't win the Super Delegates without winning the Pledged Delegates for the same reason Clinton won't add MI/FL without winning the pledged delegates (which determine who controls the credentials committee): enormous political pressure is coming to bear and will come to bear inside the party that the Pledged Delegate count and the process so far be respected.

It may fit "prognosticator fantasies" to leap from some version of a TX/OH "outcome" to Clinton securing Super Delegates and MI/FL to take the nomination in August.

But that's not how it works.

We don't leap to an endgame.

The results in the states matter. The day to day process matters.

For Clinton to win the nomination would involve winning pledged delegates and winning states overwhelmingly and using that leverage to win over Super Delegates over a sustained period of time and a map of remaining states that simply do not favor her.

Frankly, her performance post Super-Tuesday, especially the results in WI and VA have set the bar extraordinarily high for Senator Clinton in TX and OH. She must win big.

The pressure on her campaign right now, as we speak, is enormous. Ignoring that is a fantasy.

Certainly it is her right to stay in the race , but at some point after eleven decisive losses with no prospect of a decisive win on the horizon this extended primary is draining resources and energy from the larger task of the Democratic Party in 2008 which is wrestling the mantle of governance from the GOP decisively in all levels of government.

Yes, in theory, Clinton has a path to the nomination. In practice, barring some debate debacle, the real story is that it is only a matter of time and judgment before Senator Clinton acknowledges the current reality: Senator Clinton has no path to the nomination that does not run counter to the spirit of fair mindedness, the principles of our party and, most importantly, the clearly expressed will of the voters in 2008 in State after State.

Voters prefer Barack Obama.

I too, think Clinton should bow out gracefully. I am still confused as to how she even mentions Michagan, when 40% of the voters got in there cars, waited in lines, walked and caught buses to vote UNCOMMITTED against her. That is embarassing!!

IM GLAD SAINT OBAMA IS GETTING caught in is OSAMA outfit, even with the media protection! The media is the ONLY reason we are talking about obama today, he might be the first media elected MUSLIM candidate full of racism! With a racist wife who really isn’t proud of her country. Frankly I’m disgusted at the biased media saint hood Osama has received. NO OTHER MAN OR WOMAN has ever been allowed to vote to kill babies, support terror countries, lie about his religion and heritage and be ashamed of having a white mother and patted on the back... HE IS THE ANTICHRIST! (Anti-Christ will be a world leader who would come under the disguise of being a world uniter, preach world peace, and would be such a very likeable and unassuming figure; he will achieve all of that. Basically the Anti-Christ is going to kill us with kindness and reveal himself when he gets to the position he wants. That’s close to Osama’s platform; people are beginning to believe it’s him.” The biggest trick the devil ever pulled is convincing the world he didn’t exist.)
Voters are constantly posting TRUTH about Obamas awful senate record and the media like CNN and MSNBC sweep it under a rug. THE MEDIA IS SCARED TO ATTACK THE BLACK MAN! Funny thing is, he wasn’t black at the beginning until SC he was mixed race? Now if you’re black you are required to vote for racism! He has not moved blacks forward he has taken them back 50 years, just wait! The division is coming once everyone learns his past! Obama has ZERO experience to run this troubled country! Do you think his nice prewritten stolen worded church speeches will get you a job? Save your home? Feed your children? Pay for education? Allow you to get medical care...the answer is NO! HELL NO! SHAME ON YOU FOR THE FINAL SELLING OF AMERICA NOMINATING OBAMA THE RACIST! I've always been a democrat but WILL NEVER VOTE FOR OBAMA. If he is the nominee, we might be best to stay with McCain. Was a horrible mess the mainstream biased and racist media has done to this most important election? Im not so PROUD at this moment...

THERE IS NO CHANGES WITH OBAMA AND HIS USUAL WASHINGTON POLITICAL TATICS EXCEPT THE MEDIAS HELP AT HIDING HIS RECORD OF SUPPORTING THE WAR AND BUSH. WHAT OBAMA SUPPORTERS ARE AFRAID TO REALIZE. "Senator Obama has some questions to answer about his dealings with one of his largest contributors, Exelon, a big nuclear power company. Apparently he cut some deals behind closed doors to protect them from full disclosure in the nuclear industry."Obamas record shows he supports the war, voted twice in 2006 against bringing America's troops back home. He voted for war appropriations giving our money to Halliburton and Blackwater where recently A Houston, Texas woman, who says she was gang-raped by her co-workers at a Halliburton/KBR camp in Baghdad, His latest bit of posturing S 433 allows the Bush Administration to suspend any troop withdrawal!!!!if not suspended, still keeps the troops in Iraq for a long time to come? Obama when faced with tough choices always gave in to pressure from the Bush administration or corporate lobbyists. Such as Obama voted for Bush's energy bill, sending more than $13 billion in subsidies and tax breaks to oil, coal, and nuclear companies. Obama voted with Republicans to allow credit card companies to raise interest rates over 30 percent, INCREASING STUDENT LOANS RATES AND FEES increasing hardship for families. Obama voted for one of Bush's top priorities - expanding Nafta to South America - even as President Bush obstructed all the top Democratic priorities. Obama voted with Bush to make it harder for ordinary people to hold big corporations accountable when they do things like sell toxic toys, poisonous pet food, human food or just plain rip you off. Obama was the Senate's biggest Democratic advocate of subsidies for liquid coal, even though liquid coal produces twice the global warming pollution of the crude oil it's meant to replace and voted for increased subsidies, albeit with conditions.Obama, a Hamiltonian believer in free trade and supporters of globalization has lent his support to the "Hamilton Project formed by corporate-neoliberal Citigroup chair Robert Rubin and other 'Wall Street Democrats' to counter populist rebellion against corporate tendencies within the Democratic Party. Obama provided assistance to pro-war candidates (such as Joe Lieberman). Obama voted for "business-friendly 'tort reform' bill that rolls back working peoples' ability to obtain reasonable redress and compensation...from corporations!!! Obama considers single payer universal health care too socialist and has stated that he prefers voluntary solutions. **He voted against requiring medical care for aborted fetuses who survive. Abortion opponents see Obama's vote on medical care for aborted fetuses as a refusal to protect the helpless. Some have even accused him of supporting infanticide. He supported allowing retired police officers to carry concealed weapons, but opposed allowing people to use banned handguns to defend against intruders in their homes. And the list of sensitive topics goes on. With only a slim, two-year record in the U.S. Senate, Obama doesn't have many controversial congressional votes which political opponents can frame into attack ads. But his eight years as an Illinois state senator are sprinkled with potentially explosive land mines, such as his abortion and gun control votes. recent land purchase from a political supporter who is facing charges in an unrelated kickback scheme involving investment firms seeking state business. Obama has no substance. He has provided no solutions.

"I think very highly of Hillary. I admire her. I think she's one of the most disciplined strong dedicated people I know. She's one of the toughest. She's got an extraordinary intelligence, and outstanding public service record, she's somebody who's in this stuff for the right reasons and no doubt would make an excellent “President of the United Sates”. She's passionate about moving the country forward especially on issues like economy, health care and children.– “Barack Obama “

A vote for Barack Obama in the primary is a vote for John McCain in a general election. The only difference between John Kerry, Michael Dukakis, Walter Mondale and Barack Obama is that Mr. Obama has better rhetoric. Outside of that he is the kind of far left liberal that the Republicans have once again baited the Democrats into embracing, so that their White House ambitions will be secured. I find it stunning that Democrats just don't understand winning. The Clintons did and that's why they were the only Dems to get to the White House in the last 20 years.

If Obama trumps Hillary in the primaries, which even I have to admit is highly possible at this point, I will vote for John McCain because at least I know what he stands for. And I won't be the only Democrat to do so..I've heard the murmerings of other dissatisfied Democrats that the Obamacans are too busy speaking in tongues to hear. They're the ones who will vote for Ralph Nader and Senator McCain because they find a vote for Mr. Obama too odious to contemplate.

Keep it up Dems! Defeat must seem an awfully comfy place for you.

Go Hillary!

Those are good questions you listed. I hope they ask her those questions. Hillary has been geting a free ride from the press for the last year.

Tim K: Kyl-Lieberman. A mistake.

Marc, I thought this "a large number of staffers appear to be willing to quit en masse next Wednesday if there’s a split decision and Clinton gives notice that she intends to fight for another month" very interesting and would be curious to learn more.

I don't hate Clinton. At the start of this race she had mild negatives for me based on her foreign policy votes and the dynasty issue. I don't want to bash her. But it seems one either remains quiet while it's asserted that her years as first lady make her twice as experienced as Biden and Richardson, or the Iraq vote says nothing about her judgment, or Insult 40 States is a great strategy--all those voters are worthless anyhow--or one tries to counter it.

"Black swans"? Did you just say that? What exactly, in a political context, does a "black swan" refer to? I've never heard this allusion before, and I've been around for a while.

You know, it would've taken less time to just look it up than to post this comment.

"The reason why many of them remain undecided today is that they are afraid to cross the Clintons so long as there’s a tiny chance that the Clintons might win." -Marc A.

Hillary Clinton dismisses the recent photos of Barack Obama in African garb, saying those pictures are in the public domain – I don't know anything about it. Although Hillary's campaign is widely attributed with distributing the pics, I find her rebuttal a bit disingenuous, like saying my husband is Bill Clinton, I don't know anything about it. Or, the Moon orbits the Earth – I don't know anything about it. When the machine breaks down, we break down, so they say. I believe the Clinton camp has read the handwriting on the wall, and it beginning to believe it in earnest. They're broken down; they know the machine is not responding to expectations. The machine, it seems, has left them tired, and discouraged. Except for the wailing and gnashing of teeth, it may well be over: http://theseedsof9-11.com

Elgoog, don't know if you'll ever see this, but I just caught your response.

I include Florida not only because both candidates' names were on the ballot, but also because they both had active surrogate campaigns in the state, and because Obama had made major ad buys in the state, and because turnout in Florida's Democratic primary was larger, proportionally, than in New York, and that is indicative of an energized, engaged electorate. Obviously including Michigan would make the numbers look still better for Hillary Clinton.

First point true; second point ... subjective, but in any event immaterial; third point -- only as part of national campaigns, as I understand, so immaterial; fourth point -- we also had a pretty major property tax referendum on the ballot. I think that might have had a thing or two to do with turnout ;)

LOL she's burned toast!

They all say Obama had 11 straight win. It is over. She has to drop out!!
But the fact is many of those 11 victories, were like getting 25 delegates for wining 300-400 single caucus votes in a red state. Or the Democrats abroad about 78 people voted abroad and he got 12 delegates.
But Hillary wins 3 million popular votes in 2 purple states, and get zero delegates.
Hillary is just 69 delegates behind, what are you pundits talking about? She is still ahead in Ohio, Rhode Island and Pennsylvania and has a good shot in Texas.
Even without counting Florida and Michigan she still has a good chance to get ahead.
Besides, according to the rules, candidates need to win 2025 delegates to be the nominee. If they can't get these much delegates, on the second round the delegates are free to vote for anybody they choose.
So, Let the people cast their votes, still more than 16 states are looking forward to have a say in this election and lets not chance the rule in the middle of the game.
Are you not tired of Media highjacking the elections for you? not this time.

Hillary will win the nomination.
If she didn't, her supporters will ask her to announce her candidacy as an Independenet.
There is no rule against it. After all don't we all believe in Democracy?!

To all the Hillary haters!

This is far from over!
Hillary will never disappoints her supporters!