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Vantage Point

26 Feb 2008 10:55 pm

On substance: Clinton. On style: Obama.

You cannot, said Chesterton, love a thing without wanting to fight for it. If Clinton was the underdog tonight, she kept the upper dog on the defensive for most of the night. Near the end, for example, when Clinton interrupted and badgered him into denouncing the Nation of Islam leader even more fulsomely.

Toward the end, Obama made three fairly significant hedges, the first of which being about the Russian President to be, Dimitry Medvevev. Although Clinton had trouble pronouncing his name -- Medvevev, it was clear that she knew it, and that she was at least cursorily familiar with the details of the election and the challenge it poses for the U.S. As NBC News’s hounds noted, Obama appeared to defer to her. If you were watching closely, you might have wondered whether Obama had received a briefing recently on Russia, rather than a recitation of the case against George W. Bush’s relationship with Putin.

Before that there were was his weird language about the endorsement by Louis Farrakhan. There are some things you just don’t do in American politics: calling Farrakhan “minister Farrakhan” is one of them. He’s been declared persona non grata by everyone in the mainstream of our politics. It seemed to take badgering by Clinton for Obama to reject it explicitly (although he did not embrace it and had distanced himself from it before). I don't think Obama's at fault here... I think the circumstances conspired against him... but it just didn't sound right...

And before that there was Obama’s hedging on public financing in the general election.

I suspect, though, that Clinton’s intemperate complaint about the NBC’s debate reflecting the Saturday Night Live parody will be what the morning shows dissect and dissect, and beyond that, there was really nothing else to commend to the new viewer. Ohioans concerned about NAFTA learned that Clinton changed her mind about the efficacy of the trade agreement and about her promise to threaten to pull out of the treaty unless Canada and Mexico renegotiate its terms; me too, said Obama. The two candidates fought to a draw over mandates; there doesn’t seem to be a truth there one can actually find. Obama had some strong moments, particularly, as usual, on Iraq. His two best lines: how Clinton was responsible for getting the country "into the ditch" that both of them were trying to get out of, and how she was ready from day one to "enable" Bush to take the country to war.

I hesitate to point out her body language, if only because I can easily read too much into it. But she seemed tense, remorseful, sad, at times… her neck seemed leaden; her voice had an edge that all to often crossed the boundary between assertive and plaintive.

Obama seemed more solicitous and upbeat. Even as he was defensive, he was passive-defensive; he was oh-so-cool; one e-mailer, recalling Twain, called him a Christian with four aces. He seemed to be listening to Hillary Stagg with one ear and to Hillary Clinton with the other.

Bottom line: did this, the 20th debate, change much? Probably not.

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Comments (269)

Dude, what were you watching?

I thought the "You denounced but you didn't reject" line was silly. I thought Obama had sufficiently denounced.
Reading other blogs it's clear they didn't think did.
That leaves a question for me: Did Clinton do Obama a favor by getting him to say, "I reject and denounce"?

But Marc, you cannot fight for something without loving it. Hillary doesn't have the love like Obama does.

Be easy, Keith. He's coming down slowly.

Wow, I had a very different reading of the Farrakhan exchange. I really thought it made Clinton look petty. Did people really feel like Obama's initial response was inadequate? I thought he handled it well from start to finish.

1- seriously. what debate were you watching. how about iraq. how about trade. how about pakistan. he wiped the floor with her on all of those
2- he immediately denounced, which, if you check a dictionary and learn definitions of words, is the proper word to use. your account makes it sound like he was lauding him until hillary jabbed him. please be a real journalist about that, at least. or else you might as well just put all those pictures of obama's 'dressing up' all over the place and start using his middle name.

Marc,

Um, I don't get the sense a lot of people bought the idea that there is some crucial distinction between denouncing and rejecting. The fact that Obama gave Clinton her "win" on this point actually just underscored how ridiculous it was for her to try to make something out of his choice of verb.

I've noticed a subtle dislike for Obama for quite some time in this blog.

I try to watch these things objectively and judge them as how an undecided will react. I cannot believe any pundit who believes that Hillary won any undecided voters tonight.

There is one simple fact: Obama looks and sounds more presidential than Hillary.

That is all that will matter.

But, he also beat her on substance.

Having trouble pronouncing a simple 3 syllable name med-VE-dev does not suggest she clearly knew it or was that familiar with the election.

Dude, it's Medvedev. Medve_D_ev. I know you're not running for elected office, but it's still a bit odd to be sniping at Obama's hesitation when you--presumably with access to the wonderful interweb--are consistently getting the name wrong.

"Toward the end, Obama made three fairly significant hedges, the first of which being about the Russian President to be, Dimitry Medvevev. Although Clinton had trouble pronouncing his name -- Medvevev, it was clear that she knew it, and that she was at least cursorily familiar with the details of the election and the challenge it poses for the U.S."

She can't pronounce Medvedev, you can't spell Medvedev, who cares? I hope she gets a break on that one...

Do you honestly think Obama does not abhor everything Farrakahn stands for? Why, because he is a black man, does he have to say the specific magic words that you are looking for so your fat face can sleep at night? There are a billion white people out there saying horrible things, what magic words do Clinton and McCain have to say about them? God, you're an ass.

I'm pretty sure it's Medvedev, not Medvevev. I like your blog a lot, but almost every post has a typo!! Not that I'm criticizing or mind, but what's the deal? Is it your thing or something? I don't get it!!

Other posters have made this point more ably, but I don't think I can let it pass...

His endorsement isn’t desired and should be rejected; it took Hillary Clinton’s badgering for Obama to reject it explicitly (although he did not embrace it and had distanced himself from it before).

My recollection is that Obama denounced Farrakhan, which Hillary said wasn't enough -- claiming that there's a difference between
"reject" and "denounce." (I suppose there is, but in this context, I'm not sure there's a difference to the difference.) Obama then said he'd be happy to reject him if that's the stronger of the two words.

Is that accurate? If so ... which debate were you watching, Marc? Just out of curiosity, was it in a hotel bar full of soon-to-be-erstwhile Hillary staffers? Don't let them cloud your judgment -- they're probably more than halfway through their nightly bottles of wine.

Gonna have to disagree on one point in particular. They both hedged/dodged the Russia question. She only came up with the name after Russert prompted (insert fake psychic joke here)If Obama's answer had been better he could have put her away but they were both inadequately prepared for the question.

Ambinder seems to be losing the plot lately, almost as badly as Sullivan. The Farrakhan moment was a good example of why Obama is winning. He remained level-headed, civil and clear when answering an obvious gotcha question. Clinton tried to jump in and promote herself, and looked petulant, immature and exploitative. Calling Farrskhan Minister Farrakhan simply states his title, and does not imply approval. Omitting it to be goody-goody would be childish. I am beginning to wish that the Atlantic would find some more qualified analysts for these debates, and politics in general.

It's possible that I'm too far in the bag as an Obama supporter, but I really don't agree.

I thought he did very well tonight - and the moments at which he was "defensive" were, to my mind, highly effective. Her point about "denounce" versus "reject" was really very silly, and he treated it appropriately. There's something refreshing and adult about a candidate who refuses to fight on a point where there's really nothing to argue about. I confess - it's easier to do when you're ahead. But still, he did it.

As for Clinton's answer regarding Putin's successor, I thought it was nothing more than a gloss on the same story NPR's been running for the past X months. There were no specifics in her answer whatever - Putin was preparing for some time to put in a hand-picked successor, who he would control. And, it seemed to me, she was laboring to come up even with that.

I had the sense at the end that she was growing increasingly desperate, looking for something she could hit him with, and coming up with nothing.

Everyone in Chicago calls him Minister Farrakhan. In addition to being a national hate figure, after all, he's also a kitschy local kook.

I see Ambinder's analysis has been reduced to the usual lazy style versus substance meme. Honestly, would it be asking too much for an analyst to think? Perhaps he might even watch the debate.... And it is Medvedev. It's a fairly common Russian name.

Hi,

peter daou called. he wants his talking points back.

Jeff Larson:

Ultimately Hillary did Obama a favour on that one. Not only did she extract from him the rejection of support (which was the question, not if he "denounced" it), but he made her look petty at the same time. So it turned out to be a win-win for him, which otherwise looked like a hedge.

Basically, I'm ready to say Obama is now the presumptive nominee of the Democratic party.

Maybe now some people on the blog will hold him to the kind of high standard that will ensure he is prepared to win the general election.

For example, if he doesn't know that he should have unequivocally rejected (rejected was Russert's phrasing) Fahrakhan's endorsement then he's not yet ready.

Actually Marc I believe Senator Obama won the Farkhan moment. You could hear it in how the audience responded to his quip "If it is important to Senator Clinton that I reject it, then I concede the point and I reject and denounce it." To which you could hear some laughter coming from the audience. Senator Clinton just seemed too wound up. Her attacks would have landed if she delivered them in a cool calm way, but instead she seemed too eager to make her arguments, which always takes away from the "substance" of the argument itself.

Marc to real people Clinton came off as evasive (on tax returns) petty (during the whole debate especial during the renounce thing), and unhinged. On substance, Obama came ahead by showing that he has as much substance, and a moderate temperament.

Now, go back and ask why won't she release the tax returns (every other candidate has).

One last thing, did you not notice how HRC was booed (SNL line) and mocked by the crowd (renounce line). What did the people in the audience and on the web see that you aren't letting yourself see.

The moderators were not hard on HRC, they only asked the questions that all journalist should have been asking from day one (god I hope I never hear that phrase again). Yea it's bad when a journalist ask every question in one night, but if the journalist would have been during their job, that would not of happened.

Oh and here is the definition of renounce vs. definition of reject.
re·ject -a verb used as an object...
1. to refuse to have, take, recognize, etc.: to reject the offer of a better job.
2. to refuse to grant (a request, demand, etc.).

de·nounce -verb (used with object), -nounced, -nounc·ing. 1. to condemn or censure openly or publicly: to denounce a politician as morally corrupt.

I agree with "Jew for Obama". I thought BHO's initial answer was MORE than enough. But I grew up in a rural Christian(only) environment. Perhaps I'm not sensitive enough to the need to "Denounce AND reject".
I still think HRC realized it was close to the end of the debate and felt the need to get one more jab in.
On the other hand, if she had realized the game was over and made him clarify then she helped him out.
Nah, she was going for debate points.

I hate to be cynical about this, but think about this debate from the perspective of undecided voters in OH and TX. I don't think the Medvevedeved or the Farrakhan exchanges are going to matter one bit to more than five or six such voters. The stuff on NAFTA, health care, and all the 'style' issues will matter a great deal. And in that regard, BHO was pretty clearly the winner.

Please let this be the last debate, it really was boring. Clinton can not win in Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania by anywhere near the margin she needs. It's over, Obama will be the nominee.

Tim K,

I think what you are failing to grasp is that Obama's appeal is in part that he deals with the substance of questions, and doesn't get caught up in the sort of nonsense you are saying is important (e.g., his choice of verbs).

In other words, turning him into a candidate that is thinking about your sort of nonsense instead of thinking about the substance would be killing the goose that is laying the golden eggs.

In still other words, if the American people wanted that sort of candidate, Clinton would be winning. It turns out, we don't.

Looking at Sullivan's blog, a lot of Jewish-Americans felt pandered to on the Farrakhan issue by Hillary. It seems like a lot of older media hands wanted Obama to bristle, to show emotion on the question. That's not his style. Farrakhan is a misguided idiot whose views are slowly being confined to the dustbin of history. Why give him any sort of emotional reaction?

I'm sure the Republicans will come out and go after Obama on financing again after tonight. After he wraps the nomination up (so Clinton doesn't have it as a talking point) he'll try to talk to McCain. Of course it would be nice if each of his *million* supporters could donate at least a couple hundred $$. And then there's the issue of the Republican advantage in soft money 527's. Whole lot more complicated than McCain is making it out to be, and Obama will manage to work this issue just as soon as he isn't distracted.

Missed the bit on Medve*D*ev.

Other than that, it seems that most neutral viewers who weren't trying to be "objective" think Obama won, or more accurately Clinton lost, this debate. She had to play offense, but her true character shows when she's playing offense. Obama kept his cool and parried efficiently as always.

I pray to God that this thing wraps up in a week. We can't afford to let McCain attack a distracted nominee for much longer.

NOTE: You still haven't corrected / amended your comment that Obama "conceded the point" to HRC regarding the rejection of Farrakhan/anti-Semitism. Your characterization of this dialog is a distortion. Obama clearly and happily emphasizes the point that there is NO real distinction in the diction he uses to reject Farrakhan and trumps Clinton's linguistic parsing by saying he both "rejects and denounces" Farrakhan.

Such a question would have ONLY been asked of a Black question, and anyone who has a problem with his answer is predisposed to believe he may harbor antis-sematic views. You know, like all of us Black folks. When have you heard an African American at this level of politics acknowledge the part that many Jews played in the civil right movement? NEVER. But of course that's not enough for Mark and Andrew. They would have preferred he went real Black and said mother fuck a Louis Farrakhan!

DTM:

Well, that's very charming of him. I hate to break it to you though: politics hasn't changed. And if you think he is somehow immune to be caught up in process stories, parsing of words, minutiae and semantics then I think you're missing something. Never forget this is a Democratic primary where he has a favorable (and not very critical audience) and he's on a roll. That cannot last. Wouldn't life be beautiful if that's the way things worked? People could just waltz to the presidency without serious scrutiny. The reality: it's never been that way and it won't be this time.

Do you think Obama, you, or people on this blog are the first to call these kinds of questions silly?

It's especially funny coming from people who daily call on Hillary to release her tax returns, which is n't exactly a substantive issue on the minds of every day people.

Fundamentally, the debate was great for Obama and Clinton had a lot of problems. I think they were both excellent on substance and style (through I think Clinton wobbled on style).

I think the main problem was that MSNBC started out hard on Clinton and it didn't feel like Obama got hit as hard from my point of view, and I think that was good on balance for Clinton because as big a clunker that line about SNL was it reinforced that vision. But Obama had some skitish moments w/Farakan. I didn't pick up on the waiting for Clinton to answer the Russia question at all. But Russert pointed it out, so that made sense. I don't think this fundamentally hurts him, however.

I don't think Clinton did what she needed to do and I think the numbers will close faster b/c of the Nafta issue in Ohio.

Obama's statement that he would not be where he is today without the Jewish involvement in the civil rights movement was profoundly moving and meaningful. This history is often not acknowledged today, but it is remembered by Jews and it was wonderful to see that Obama knows and cares about this historic partnership.

For Clinton to heap praise on herself for "rejecting" the utterly insignificant and marginal independent party of NY is absurd. And denouncing is a much stronger word than rejecting. Denouncing means that you clearly think the views are despicable; rejecting means you don't accept them.

Sue, like, really. The point isn't that Obama should have used the word "reject" because it's somehow a better word than "denounce", it's because Russert used the word REJECT. And Obama seemed to avoid answering the question directly. And when a candidate seems to want to avoid answering a question it doesn't seem like a different kind of politics, it doesn't seem like the politics of hope, it seems like politics as usual.

Why didn't he say "Yes, I reject his endorsement and his views. That's not what my campaign is about." ?

Tim K,

Well, the cynics typically didn't think Obama could get this far, and yet here he is. And I strongly suspect that Obama is not about to start taking political advice from people who have been very wrong so far.

By the way, I am just more puzzled about the tax return thing than anything else. I have never understood why it would make sense to release it during the general election campaign but not the primary campaign, and it certainly doesn't make sense that she doesn't have the time to do it. She is losing for much more important reasons than that, however.

calling Farrakhan “minister Farrakhan” is one of them. He’s been declared persona non grata by everyone in the mainstream of our politics.

Jerry Falwell probably met this same criteria for quite a few people, but somehow I don't think you'd object if one of the candidates referred to him as Reverend Falwell, now would you?

"Did people really feel like Obama's initial response [on Farrakhan] was inadequate?"

Yeps. Very much.

By the way, for what it is worth, Obama did directly answer the question. As he explained, Farrakhan hasn't offered him anything, so there was nothing in particular to reject. But Obama is aware of what Farrakhan has said, and he has denounced those views. Which makes perfect sense, of course.

But more importantly, Obama has shown time and again that it is far more effective for him to reframe stupid questions than to constrain his answers within their implicit premises. Again, Tim K seems to think Obama is getting the politics of all this wrong, but the results say otherwise.

DTM:

The "cynics"? Talk about an Obama campaign talking point.

Have we now expanded the definition of "cynic" to mean anyone who has paid any close attention to the politics of the United States since, oh, I dunno... 1787?

Obama is not going to be able to get from now to November by waffling, hedging, dodging, flubbing, side-stepping and calling every criticism "silly."

The fact is Obama has not demonstrated a strong ability to be quick on his feet in answering tough questions, not that he's been given much practise doing so.

Tim K -

Yes, Russert did use the word reject.

But this is the way I think of it. Someone comes along and says to you, so do you reject hatemongers. And you say, I denounce them.

Since denouncing is stronger than rejecting, you have made a statement that goes beyond what is asked of you.

And by "conceding the point," Obama once again shows that he's willing to modify his views without worrying that someone will think that he actually is admitting something that undermines his case. Clinton really never does that and, to me, this shows that she does not have the temperament to be a president who can learn from anyone who has something to teach and from her own mistakes.

Ambinder much have been watching the debate with his friends in the Clinton Campaign.

Hillary didn't hit, and she got hit her hard on NAFTA, her Iraq vote, and special interests.

Every time Hillary pulls out a weak attack like "xerox" or her humorless sarcasm, Obama gets more votes.

And Hillary did zero to get any new votes.

If Obama beats her in not only Texas, but also Ohio, it will not only be total defeat but also total embarrassment for Hillary.

If you don't think Obama's Farrakhan connection is not significant to Jewish voters and other influential players you aren't paying attention.

DTM:

Russert asked Obama twice if he would reject Farrakhan's endorsement and he wouldn't even utter the word. It took Hillary to make an issue out of it for him to do it. That's the issue, it shows poor political instincts.

Farrakhan is Obama's running mate, as Willie Horton was Dukakis' one.

Tonight he lost the general election.

Marc,

Apparently you watched the debate through some sort of filter. Just about every other blogger and their comments section have called it for Obama, big time.

The man denounced and rejected Farrakahn. For the love of pete, isn't that enough? He also gave props to the Jewish community for historically being leaders on the civil rights front, saying he wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for their efforts.

What, does he have to say that he'd like to see Farrakahn strung up by his toenails?

People, please, he did everything but that. It's my firm belief that the man will get a huge majority of the Jewish vote in November. Bet on it.

Tim K, as others have noted, this is a question that reasonable people can differ on. It boils down to an arguably meaningless semantic debate on whether "reject" or "denounce" is the stronger verb. You think rejct is stronger, others think it's denounce.

If Hillary prevailed in that exchange, it was on that very question of semantics. Whether that's an issue to any voters is essentially a matter of personal opinion. You think so, others do not.

What does it even mean to reject an endorsement? He sure isn't going to put it on his web site or do any events with the man and he clearly renounces (let's try a new word) his racialist and disgusting ideas.

And if Obama has such poor political instincts, how has done so well against the front-runner who had all the big endorsements and the early money?

Tim K,

As an aside, various people have offered substantive criticisms of Obama and his views during the campaign. This just doesn't happen to be one of them.

Anyway, again you are asserting Obama's way of answering questions like this hasn't been politically effective, and that generally he has "poor political instincts." You are entitled to your opinion, but the obvious problem with these assertions is that the actual political results suggest very different conclusions.

Here's the dictionary, this is nonsense

Reject:
to refuse to have, take, recognize, etc.: to reject the offer of a better job.

Denounce:
to condemn or censure openly or publicly: to denounce a politician as morally corrupt.

tim k and sara (as well as mr. ambinder) again, need to look up the definition of words. sara and tim k, apparently, don't know what words really mean. if i say "do you hate nazis?" and you say "i loathe nazis!" do i not effectively answer the question? am i not going above and beyond the point of the initial question? denounce is the proper word. reject is not. look up the definitions. denounce is more qualitative. also, it refers NOT ONLY TO THE ENDORSEMENT, BUT TO HIS PLATFORMS, HIS VIEWS, AND HIS DERANGED ANTI-SEMATISM. by DENOUNCING farrakhan, you REJECT his endorsement. is this so hard to get?
seriously, you shills, learn to read, or research, anything before you make yourselves look like idiots. well, next time anyway.

Frank,

What connections does Obama have with Farrakhan, pray tell? Pleae note that the answer to my question requires facts not innuendo.


Marc,

I think you are overreaching here to imply that his use of his term of Minister Farrakhan is odd. Given Obama's background and political career, I don't he is an anti-semite.

Tim K, since you have your thong twisted up on this one, I reject your illogical arguments and denounce you as a Clintonian water-carrier for the closet Republicans.

Only a pitiable cretin would assume you can denounce someone without rejecting them.

Lucille Austero: Do you like ham?

Carl Weathers: No. I love it.

Talk about dodging the question. Too bad Hillary wasn't there to hold Carl's feet to the fire.

By the way, one of the odd things about the political theories of people like Tim K (and apparently Marc) is that they simultaneously require voters to be very sophisticated and very stupid. For example, the voters have to be sophisticated enough to know whatever very specific rhetorical code relating to Farrakhan they think Obama violated in his answer. But they also have to be stupid enough to care about that rhetorical issue more than they care about Obama's discussion of the role of Jewish people in the civil rights movement and the need to condemn anti-Semitism in the black community before black audiences.

Well, I'm not quite sure whether voters are too sophisticated or too stupid for Tim K's political theories, but one way or another those theories clearly aren't working.

I'm sorry, Hillary's neck was "leaden"? Thank you, Sean Hannity.

I get a great chuckle out of all those with blogs here, the media talking heads trying to parse this or that phrase into a plus or minus...

Through all of the above analysis y'all speak of how Hillary badgered him into this or hammered him on that...

What all of you are missing is that the badgering and hammering is what most of us are rebelling against.

The hectoring is what has gotten us backed into the corner of stalemate for the sake of partisan politics.

We are getting NOTHING done in this country. Our elected ones are so busy kneecapping each other around the bubble that is DC, they have completely forgotten about the rest of us out here in real life.

I do get a chuckle out of it. I sincerely hope the American people make themselves heard loud and clear to ALL of you bubble folks that business as DC usual just won't do anymore.

Vote hope, not fear. Vote unity, not divide and conquer.

Even The Corner folks agree that Obama won this exchange:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTM3MGI5NGQxMjg2NDUxNzY1MmJiMDZhZTZkY2E2NWE=

I thought it was inappropriate to ask the Farrakhan question in the first place. Is it a requirement for all African-American politicians to unequivocally say they do not share Mr. Farrakhan's views? No one has asked Mike Huckabee if he shares the views of Olympic Park bomber Eric Robert Rudolph. They're both evangelical Christians, perhaps they do!

also, how can anyone say hillary won the debate on substance when hillary said "the hundreds of thousands of people who donate to me are financing my campaign" and then, 5 minutes later, referenced how she loaned herself 5 million dollars. ON TOP OF refusing to release her tax returns (too busy.. yeah.. her staff of 700 can find pictures of obama in africa but not a tax return!!) which, by the way, would show how she financed her campaign in february.
their net worth went from 2million to almost 30million from 2004-now. 5 million of that new 32 million went to the campaign. not knowing where THAT financing comes from is troubling, seeing the clintons' checkered past with money (monks!)

Jeff:

I'm sorry but you're misunderstanding my point. We don't have a disagreement about whether "reject" or "denounce" is stronger. I don't care about that, this isn't a philosophical or linguistic debate. The point I was making is since Russert asked whether Obama "rejected" the endorsement, Obama should have answered in those terms directly. And when he neglected to do that and was again asked whether he "rejected" the endorsement, he should have replied by saying "yes I reject it." Instead he said something like "uh...well... uh... I can't make somebody not say he thinks I'm a good guy." Obama seemed uncomfortable and gave the impression he didn't want to answer the question. I think the idea he chose the word denounce because it was stronger is a little bit silly.

DTM:

Your argument concerning Obama's political results is faulty. The same could be said of Michael Dukakis in 1988. It could have been said in August of that year that Dukakis had demonstrated great political skill in winning his party's nomination, proven his electability, and dispatched silly political issues like Willie Horton. Since Willie Horton had been raised during the primaries and did not damage Dukakis. Although it, and other issues that did not hurt him in the primaries, were fatal in the general election.

Incidentally, I personally think Obama also deserved great credit for cutting Russert off before he could read a bunch of Farrakhan's most offensive sentiments to a national audience.

marc, you are really showing your true colors. i've been trying to defend your objectivity for a long time on this board, but this is really very telling.

asked about tax returns, HRC is evasive.

asked about presidential records, HRC is evasive.

these two issues go to the heart of transparency, honesty and experience. and they dont even register as a blip on your radar.

HRC was booed, AGAIN, for goodness sake.

And, with a straight face, she pointed to Saturday Night Live as evidence of a media "bias."

and yet, your blog, read by untold number of opinionmakers, is arguing that the use of the term "minister" was the game changer.

calm, collected, thoughtful, and INFORMED was Obama; HRC was quite often flustered.

jeez marc, i dont get what's up with you these days.

Alright Marc. I'm done with you. You're clearly delusional.

"i rejected it. i said that it would not be anything i would be comfortable with, and it looked as though i might pay a price for that"
-hillary about the independence party.
so, she's trying to say that, in new york state which, truly, has the largest concentration of jewish people in the world, that going out against the, what, 100 members of the independence party in favor of one of the largest and most important voting blocs in NY state was this amazing RISK she took.
that's winning substance? are you people joking?

Tim K

The only people who want to use a Willie Horton example is you.

I think what this person wrote expresses what I think about the stupid Farrakhan question:

>Why do they always ask the African American about Louis Farrakhan but they never ask the caucasian about controversial or negative comments that caucasian's make. For instance why didn't they ask Hillary about the "lynching" comments that Bill O'Reilly said about Michelle Obama or what about what the radio personality said today while introducing John McCain to an audience of supporters? I think the question was designed to bring Obama down."

The guy said he denounces his views and such.

The first comment summed it up pretty well.

This author's take on the debate is fantasyland. In PARTICULAR the Farrakhan part... he killed her on that. How you saw that otherwise casts serious doubts on you... whether those doubts are about bias or judgment, I can't say. I haven't read you much.

The first half hour of this debate killed her... her handlers got her calmed down a bit during the first break or we would have seen some looney tunes. I'd pay a lot to have been a fly on that wall.

And she was toast the second he said "Sounds good."


Tim K,

Except Obama is absolutely nothing like Dukakis, nor for that matter are the results in question. Specifically, it isn't just a matter of Obama winning the nomination, but rather it is how he is winning the nomination. In fact, the closest analogies to Obama's results in recent memory would be Clinton's and Reagan's. And if anyone in this race was like Dukakis, it would be Clinton.

Anyway, the bottomline is that invoking a bogeyman like Dukakis doesn't help your positive case. Yes, Dukakis proved to be an inept politician despite winning the nomination. That does absolutely nothing to show that you are right about Obama being an inept politician.

If Farakhann OFFERED to help Obama's campaign or do something (action), then Obama would have the option to reject the OFFER. This OFFER hasn't existed.

Farakhan made STATEMENTS, which Obama finds offensive, unacceptable and despicable, consequently Obama denounces those STATEMENTS. He does not just stop at denouncing those views or statements; he went further to DISSOCIATE himself from that object of those despicable statements (Farakhann) in the context appropriate - Jews, race and other areas such statments have been made by Farakhan. Obama cannot wish death on Farakhan for being human per se. He can wish death on him within a context, and he has done that in a polite, true, mature and appropriate way. McCain wishes death on Fidel Castro for being human per se. Obama doesn't play to the gallery and that's why his judgments have been so sound, because they are based on telling truths. Simple.

Another Jew for Obama.

...and here we are, again, distracted from the question of who won the debate, and we're arguing the difference between reject and denounce.

thanks marc. very much.

I thought Hillary shouting down the moderators when they wanted to get the heck off of healthcare was bombastic on her part and embarassing. Perhaps the whining about always getting the first question was an attempt at sympathy from women - look at these terrible men ganging up on poor me, but really it just looked whiny - why isn't answering first question an opportunity. Hillary was intent, it seemed, on complaining. Obama repeatedly tried to engage Hillary on the substantive differences in their health care plans, but Hillary was just dieing to turn it into a personal attack on Obama. I thought the way Obama absorbed Hillary's Ann Coulter-like badgering on Farrakhan and cooly and calmly turned it away, was especially presidential - just the way I want my President to turn aside aggressive talk at the negotiating table or from aggressive foreign leaders. I thought that was a golden moment for Obama. While Hillary's supporters claim she has great command of the facts, I didn't feel like she used any opportunity to show any mental agility on any of the issues. What I heard was not mental agility but emotional accusations. Saying that she thought it would be great for the U.S. to have a woman as president just made me think how much the U.S. needs a calm and cool black man to restore the world's confidence in our country.

Not exactly a profile in courage, is it, bipolar bear?

I thought Hillary shouting down the moderators when they wanted to get the heck off of healthcare was bombastic on her part and embarassing. Perhaps the whining about always getting the first question was an attempt at sympathy from women - look at these terrible men ganging up on poor me, but really it just looked whiny - why isn't answering first question an opportunity. Hillary was intent, it seemed, on complaining. Obama repeatedly tried to engage Hillary on the substantive differences in their health care plans, but Hillary was just dieing to turn it into a personal attack on Obama. I thought the way Obama absorbed Hillary's Ann Coulter-like badgering on Farrakhan and cooly and calmly turned it away, was especially presidential - just the way I want my President to turn aside aggressive talk at the negotiating table or from aggressive foreign leaders. I thought that was a golden moment for Obama. While Hillary's supporters claim she has great command of the facts, I didn't feel like she used any opportunity to show any mental agility on any of the issues. What I heard was not mental agility but emotional accusations. Saying that she thought it would be great for the U.S. to have a woman as president just made me think how much the U.S. needs a calm and cool black man to restore the world's confidence in our country.

To clarify, the first Clinton in my 12:27 post referred to Bill, and the second to Hillary.

Micheline:

They asked Barack Obama about Louis Farrakhan because the guy endorsed him publicly the other day.

And I'm glad you caught that. Obama actually made it through that entire exchange without saying "I reject his endorsement." Or anything that specific. The closest he came was "I denounce his views (on anti-semitism)" which isn't the same thing.

Why does it matter? It is so the candidate has to make a choice. He has to be willing to offend some small group like Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam and their supporters, in order to do the right thing.

It became apparent to me from the debate why Clinton blows her lead in every State. She is pretty annoying. Like the classmate who everyone loved to hate because she had to had the last word on every issue. She really cannot see the forest from the trees.

She had a filibuster on healthcare for the first 16 minutes. The exchanges were non-illuminating and the average listener probably learnt that a mandate is not a free government program but a command to buy insurance (bad for her). She also complained about the moderators being biased citing 60 minutes, interjected rudely, argued with the moderator over breaks, etc.

She recites facts [Ireland, Kosovo, etc.] but not in any way that responds to a question or that connects to the listener. She reminds me of how Kerry "won" all the debates against Bush and lost the war.

Her sea change argument is pitiful. She should not ask people to vote for her because she is female. The worrld has seen indira Ghandi, Bhutto, Golda Meir, etc. There is really no sea change here. In any case that is an argument that should be made by others not the putative beneficiary!

watched the debate. read your blog. one of us is extremely confused.

As a Jew, Obama's response on Farrakhan was an heartbreaker. That's all I want to say.

i also loved hillary's answer that she couldn't create jobs in NY, because she needed a democratic president. 'i only made the promise because i thought that al gore would be president. no democratic president means every campaign promise i made was moot. even though i never qualified my remark at that stage.'
hilarious.

Tim K,

So your theory is that Obama denounced Farrakhan because he didn't want to offend Farrakhan?

Seriously, this is the sort of nonsense the American people are rejecting in no uncertain terms.

as a blogger, i am not surprised tim k will not respond to me, or anyone else, that shows him he's an idiot who doesn't know what words mean.
and as a frequent internet visitor, i don't believe martin is jewish, or there is any reason to be heartbroken. i can change my name and make up an email address and say anything and everything i want.
'as 70 year old rabbi, obama told me he hated me cause i'm jewish'
doesn't make it true.
you don't explain yourself, martin, you're not adding anything to the conversation we're trying to have

Why the hell shall Obama reject or denounce Farrakhan? Why hasn't Russert asked Clinton the question?

Oh right, Obama is black! Like Farrakhan. So, they must think alike. And Marc, you are being a racist prick as well. And the oversensitive zionists better get used to it: Obama is the next President.

tbb, something else I've noticed about commenters: whenever their name is descriptive, you can be quite sure they're the opposite of what they claim to be.

So "Moderate Dem" is in fact a conservative Republican trying to stir up trouble; "Still Undecided" is most assuredly decided, and has probably already voted; and something tells me that "the bipolar bear" is neither ursine nor manic depressive.

Even setting aside reject/denounce... the word Obama used to characterize farrakhan's bile was "reprehensible."

Reprehensible is as strong a word as there is for that context. There aren't any stronger.

There is no one in the world, gentile or jewish that finds them worse than reprehensible... reprehensible covers as bad as it can be.

This game of who can denounce him the loudest is incredibly weak. It reminds me way too much of who has the biggest flag sticker on their car.

"10.09 pm. Farrakhan. Does Obama understand that saying he has consistently denounced him is not the same as simply saying, "I denounce him"? A weak response - reminiscent of Dukakis. (By the way, why is it somehow only a question for Jewish Americans that Farrakhan is a fascist hate-monger? It's a question for all Americans.) Obama's Farrakhan response suggests to me he is reluctant to attack a black demagogue. Maybe he wants to avoid a racial melee. But he has one. He needs to get real on this. Weak, weak, weak. Clinton sees an opening and pounces. She wins this round. He is forced to adjust. His worst moment in any debate since this campaign started. I'm astounded he couldn't be more forceful. His inability to say by himself, unprompted, that Farrakhan's support repels him and he rejects it outright really unsettles me.

I have not believed that Obama has an ounce of sympathy for a creep like Farrakhan. But Obama has now made me doubt this. If David Duke called John McCain a good man, would McCain hesitate to say he'd rather Duke opposed him? If this is how Obama wants to tackle this emotive issue, he needs to get real."

Andrew Sullivan, Obama supporter, doubts him on Farrakhan

Wow, I took a totally different bead on the "denounce" vs. "reject" thing. I thought Clinton's interjection there made her sound kind of silly, like she needed to say something just for the sake of being the one talking. When Obama kind of stared her down and then said, fair enough, I do both -- I just thought she looked a little deflated and awkward, like maybe she really didn't know where she was going with that in the first place.

And you don't mention the Clinton tax returns, which is surprising to me. For some reason, I just never imagined a televised debate bringing that up. And man, talk about significant hedges. I don't think HRC saw it coming either.

Otherwise a pretty good analysis.

Tim K,

I don't think he said anything positive about Farrakhan. At least he didn't say that he is a strong promoter of family values or reforming ex-cons as some idiots do. The guy denounced him. To me that reads like a rejection. I think this whole episode is an example of people using anything as an excuse to not support someone.

I just looked at the transcript of the debate which is available from the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/us/politics/26text-debate.html?pagewanted=18&_r=1

This was Russert's question: "On Sunday, the headline in your hometown paper, Chicago Tribune: "Louis Farrakhan Backs Obama for President at Nation of Islam Convention in Chicago." Do you accept the support of Louis Farrakhan?"

Obama: You know, I have been very clear in my denunciation of Minister Farrakhan's anti-Semitic comments. I think that they are unacceptable and reprehensible. I did not solicit this support. He expressed pride in an African-American who seems to be bringing the country together. I obviously can't censor him, but it is not support that I sought. And we're not doing anything, I assure you, formally or informally with Minister Farrakhan.

Russert:Do you reject his support?

Obama:Well, Tim, you know, I can't say to somebody that he can't say that he thinks I'm a good guy. (Laughter.) You know, I -- you know, I -- I have been very clear in my denunciations of him and his past statements, and I think that indicates to the American people what my stance is on those comments.

So in the first answer Obama tried to denounce his views without rejecting the endorsement. The second time he again didn't want to reject the endorsement, but he then felt he had to denounce him and his views.

The point: It would have been a lot easier to answer it the right way the first time.

tim k. and dtm,

tim russert's question was provocative and shocking to Obama. It appeared that even Hillary was startled. I imagine that she will have literature on his Farrakhan issue come sunrise. Tim Russert was only doing his job. I concer(agree) with other posters that I think the author of this opinion article was not watching the same debate. Tonight was great for Obama and somewhat strange for Hillary. It was remarkable, really. She was acting very odd tonight, unprofessional and desperate at times. Obama seemed to have his name on the door. It is not his fault. He fits the bill. Hillary is mean-spirited. Obama cares about the American people. There is a place for Hillary in our government, she can do wonders for America with all of her passion, her place just isn't the White House or the Oval Office. Not this time.

~Kellie