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Vantage Point

26 Feb 2008 10:55 pm

On substance: Clinton. On style: Obama.

You cannot, said Chesterton, love a thing without wanting to fight for it. If Clinton was the underdog tonight, she kept the upper dog on the defensive for most of the night. Near the end, for example, when Clinton interrupted and badgered him into denouncing the Nation of Islam leader even more fulsomely.

Toward the end, Obama made three fairly significant hedges, the first of which being about the Russian President to be, Dimitry Medvevev. Although Clinton had trouble pronouncing his name -- Medvevev, it was clear that she knew it, and that she was at least cursorily familiar with the details of the election and the challenge it poses for the U.S. As NBC News’s hounds noted, Obama appeared to defer to her. If you were watching closely, you might have wondered whether Obama had received a briefing recently on Russia, rather than a recitation of the case against George W. Bush’s relationship with Putin.

Before that there were was his weird language about the endorsement by Louis Farrakhan. There are some things you just don’t do in American politics: calling Farrakhan “minister Farrakhan” is one of them. He’s been declared persona non grata by everyone in the mainstream of our politics. It seemed to take badgering by Clinton for Obama to reject it explicitly (although he did not embrace it and had distanced himself from it before). I don't think Obama's at fault here... I think the circumstances conspired against him... but it just didn't sound right...

And before that there was Obama’s hedging on public financing in the general election.

I suspect, though, that Clinton’s intemperate complaint about the NBC’s debate reflecting the Saturday Night Live parody will be what the morning shows dissect and dissect, and beyond that, there was really nothing else to commend to the new viewer. Ohioans concerned about NAFTA learned that Clinton changed her mind about the efficacy of the trade agreement and about her promise to threaten to pull out of the treaty unless Canada and Mexico renegotiate its terms; me too, said Obama. The two candidates fought to a draw over mandates; there doesn’t seem to be a truth there one can actually find. Obama had some strong moments, particularly, as usual, on Iraq. His two best lines: how Clinton was responsible for getting the country "into the ditch" that both of them were trying to get out of, and how she was ready from day one to "enable" Bush to take the country to war.

I hesitate to point out her body language, if only because I can easily read too much into it. But she seemed tense, remorseful, sad, at times… her neck seemed leaden; her voice had an edge that all to often crossed the boundary between assertive and plaintive.

Obama seemed more solicitous and upbeat. Even as he was defensive, he was passive-defensive; he was oh-so-cool; one e-mailer, recalling Twain, called him a Christian with four aces. He seemed to be listening to Hillary Stagg with one ear and to Hillary Clinton with the other.

Bottom line: did this, the 20th debate, change much? Probably not.

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Comments (269)

Dude, what were you watching?

I thought the "You denounced but you didn't reject" line was silly. I thought Obama had sufficiently denounced.
Reading other blogs it's clear they didn't think did.
That leaves a question for me: Did Clinton do Obama a favor by getting him to say, "I reject and denounce"?

But Marc, you cannot fight for something without loving it. Hillary doesn't have the love like Obama does.

Be easy, Keith. He's coming down slowly.

Wow, I had a very different reading of the Farrakhan exchange. I really thought it made Clinton look petty. Did people really feel like Obama's initial response was inadequate? I thought he handled it well from start to finish.

1- seriously. what debate were you watching. how about iraq. how about trade. how about pakistan. he wiped the floor with her on all of those
2- he immediately denounced, which, if you check a dictionary and learn definitions of words, is the proper word to use. your account makes it sound like he was lauding him until hillary jabbed him. please be a real journalist about that, at least. or else you might as well just put all those pictures of obama's 'dressing up' all over the place and start using his middle name.

Marc,

Um, I don't get the sense a lot of people bought the idea that there is some crucial distinction between denouncing and rejecting. The fact that Obama gave Clinton her "win" on this point actually just underscored how ridiculous it was for her to try to make something out of his choice of verb.

I've noticed a subtle dislike for Obama for quite some time in this blog.

I try to watch these things objectively and judge them as how an undecided will react. I cannot believe any pundit who believes that Hillary won any undecided voters tonight.

There is one simple fact: Obama looks and sounds more presidential than Hillary.

That is all that will matter.

But, he also beat her on substance.

Having trouble pronouncing a simple 3 syllable name med-VE-dev does not suggest she clearly knew it or was that familiar with the election.

Dude, it's Medvedev. Medve_D_ev. I know you're not running for elected office, but it's still a bit odd to be sniping at Obama's hesitation when you--presumably with access to the wonderful interweb--are consistently getting the name wrong.

"Toward the end, Obama made three fairly significant hedges, the first of which being about the Russian President to be, Dimitry Medvevev. Although Clinton had trouble pronouncing his name -- Medvevev, it was clear that she knew it, and that she was at least cursorily familiar with the details of the election and the challenge it poses for the U.S."

She can't pronounce Medvedev, you can't spell Medvedev, who cares? I hope she gets a break on that one...

Do you honestly think Obama does not abhor everything Farrakahn stands for? Why, because he is a black man, does he have to say the specific magic words that you are looking for so your fat face can sleep at night? There are a billion white people out there saying horrible things, what magic words do Clinton and McCain have to say about them? God, you're an ass.

I'm pretty sure it's Medvedev, not Medvevev. I like your blog a lot, but almost every post has a typo!! Not that I'm criticizing or mind, but what's the deal? Is it your thing or something? I don't get it!!

Other posters have made this point more ably, but I don't think I can let it pass...

His endorsement isn’t desired and should be rejected; it took Hillary Clinton’s badgering for Obama to reject it explicitly (although he did not embrace it and had distanced himself from it before).

My recollection is that Obama denounced Farrakhan, which Hillary said wasn't enough -- claiming that there's a difference between
"reject" and "denounce." (I suppose there is, but in this context, I'm not sure there's a difference to the difference.) Obama then said he'd be happy to reject him if that's the stronger of the two words.

Is that accurate? If so ... which debate were you watching, Marc? Just out of curiosity, was it in a hotel bar full of soon-to-be-erstwhile Hillary staffers? Don't let them cloud your judgment -- they're probably more than halfway through their nightly bottles of wine.

Gonna have to disagree on one point in particular. They both hedged/dodged the Russia question. She only came up with the name after Russert prompted (insert fake psychic joke here)If Obama's answer had been better he could have put her away but they were both inadequately prepared for the question.

Ambinder seems to be losing the plot lately, almost as badly as Sullivan. The Farrakhan moment was a good example of why Obama is winning. He remained level-headed, civil and clear when answering an obvious gotcha question. Clinton tried to jump in and promote herself, and looked petulant, immature and exploitative. Calling Farrskhan Minister Farrakhan simply states his title, and does not imply approval. Omitting it to be goody-goody would be childish. I am beginning to wish that the Atlantic would find some more qualified analysts for these debates, and politics in general.

It's possible that I'm too far in the bag as an Obama supporter, but I really don't agree.

I thought he did very well tonight - and the moments at which he was "defensive" were, to my mind, highly effective. Her point about "denounce" versus "reject" was really very silly, and he treated it appropriately. There's something refreshing and adult about a candidate who refuses to fight on a point where there's really nothing to argue about. I confess - it's easier to do when you're ahead. But still, he did it.

As for Clinton's answer regarding Putin's successor, I thought it was nothing more than a gloss on the same story NPR's been running for the past X months. There were no specifics in her answer whatever - Putin was preparing for some time to put in a hand-picked successor, who he would control. And, it seemed to me, she was laboring to come up even with that.

I had the sense at the end that she was growing increasingly desperate, looking for something she could hit him with, and coming up with nothing.

Everyone in Chicago calls him Minister Farrakhan. In addition to being a national hate figure, after all, he's also a kitschy local kook.

I see Ambinder's analysis has been reduced to the usual lazy style versus substance meme. Honestly, would it be asking too much for an analyst to think? Perhaps he might even watch the debate.... And it is Medvedev. It's a fairly common Russian name.

Hi,

peter daou called. he wants his talking points back.

Jeff Larson:

Ultimately Hillary did Obama a favour on that one. Not only did she extract from him the rejection of support (which was the question, not if he "denounced" it), but he made her look petty at the same time. So it turned out to be a win-win for him, which otherwise looked like a hedge.

Basically, I'm ready to say Obama is now the presumptive nominee of the Democratic party.

Maybe now some people on the blog will hold him to the kind of high standard that will ensure he is prepared to win the general election.

For example, if he doesn't know that he should have unequivocally rejected (rejected was Russert's phrasing) Fahrakhan's endorsement then he's not yet ready.

Actually Marc I believe Senator Obama won the Farkhan moment. You could hear it in how the audience responded to his quip "If it is important to Senator Clinton that I reject it, then I concede the point and I reject and denounce it." To which you could hear some laughter coming from the audience. Senator Clinton just seemed too wound up. Her attacks would have landed if she delivered them in a cool calm way, but instead she seemed too eager to make her arguments, which always takes away from the "substance" of the argument itself.

Marc to real people Clinton came off as evasive (on tax returns) petty (during the whole debate especial during the renounce thing), and unhinged. On substance, Obama came ahead by showing that he has as much substance, and a moderate temperament.

Now, go back and ask why won't she release the tax returns (every other candidate has).

One last thing, did you not notice how HRC was booed (SNL line) and mocked by the crowd (renounce line). What did the people in the audience and on the web see that you aren't letting yourself see.

The moderators were not hard on HRC, they only asked the questions that all journalist should have been asking from day one (god I hope I never hear that phrase again). Yea it's bad when a journalist ask every question in one night, but if the journalist would have been during their job, that would not of happened.

Oh and here is the definition of renounce vs. definition of reject.
re·ject -a verb used as an object...
1. to refuse to have, take, recognize, etc.: to reject the offer of a better job.
2. to refuse to grant (a request, demand, etc.).

de·nounce -verb (used with object), -nounced, -nounc·ing. 1. to condemn or censure openly or publicly: to denounce a politician as morally corrupt.

I agree with "Jew for Obama". I thought BHO's initial answer was MORE than enough. But I grew up in a rural Christian(only) environment. Perhaps I'm not sensitive enough to the need to "Denounce AND reject".
I still think HRC realized it was close to the end of the debate and felt the need to get one more jab in.
On the other hand, if she had realized the game was over and made him clarify then she helped him out.
Nah, she was going for debate points.

I hate to be cynical about this, but think about this debate from the perspective of undecided voters in OH and TX. I don't think the Medvevedeved or the Farrakhan exchanges are going to matter one bit to more than five or six such voters. The stuff on NAFTA, health care, and all the 'style' issues will matter a great deal. And in that regard, BHO was pretty clearly the winner.

Please let this be the last debate, it really was boring. Clinton can not win in Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania by anywhere near the margin she needs. It's over, Obama will be the nominee.

Tim K,

I think what you are failing to grasp is that Obama's appeal is in part that he deals with the substance of questions, and doesn't get caught up in the sort of nonsense you are saying is important (e.g., his choice of verbs).

In other words, turning him into a candidate that is thinking about your sort of nonsense instead of thinking about the substance would be killing the goose that is laying the golden eggs.

In still other words, if the American people wanted that sort of candidate, Clinton would be winning. It turns out, we don't.

Looking at Sullivan's blog, a lot of Jewish-Americans felt pandered to on the Farrakhan issue by Hillary. It seems like a lot of older media hands wanted Obama to bristle, to show emotion on the question. That's not his style. Farrakhan is a misguided idiot whose views are slowly being confined to the dustbin of history. Why give him any sort of emotional reaction?

I'm sure the Republicans will come out and go after Obama on financing again after tonight. After he wraps the nomination up (so Clinton doesn't have it as a talking point) he'll try to talk to McCain. Of course it would be nice if each of his *million* supporters could donate at least a couple hundred $$. And then there's the issue of the Republican advantage in soft money 527's. Whole lot more complicated than McCain is making it out to be, and Obama will manage to work this issue just as soon as he isn't distracted.

Missed the bit on Medve*D*ev.

Other than that, it seems that most neutral viewers who weren't trying to be "objective" think Obama won, or more accurately Clinton lost, this debate. She had to play offense, but her true character shows when she's playing offense. Obama kept his cool and parried efficiently as always.

I pray to God that this thing wraps up in a week. We can't afford to let McCain attack a distracted nominee for much longer.

NOTE: You still haven't corrected / amended your comment that Obama "conceded the point" to HRC regarding the rejection of Farrakhan/anti-Semitism. Your characterization of this dialog is a distortion. Obama clearly and happily emphasizes the point that there is NO real distinction in the diction he uses to reject Farrakhan and trumps Clinton's linguistic parsing by saying he both "rejects and denounces" Farrakhan.

Such a question would have ONLY been asked of a Black question, and anyone who has a problem with his answer is predisposed to believe he may harbor antis-sematic views. You know, like all of us Black folks. When have you heard an African American at this level of politics acknowledge the part that many Jews played in the civil right movement? NEVER. But of course that's not enough for Mark and Andrew. They would have preferred he went real Black and said mother fuck a Louis Farrakhan!

DTM:

Well, that's very charming of him. I hate to break it to you though: politics hasn't changed. And if you think he is somehow immune to be caught up in process stories, parsing of words, minutiae and semantics then I think you're missing something. Never forget this is a Democratic primary where he has a favorable (and not very critical audience) and he's on a roll. That cannot last. Wouldn't life be beautiful if that's the way things worked? People could just waltz to the presidency without serious scrutiny. The reality: it's never been that way and it won't be this time.

Do you think Obama, you, or people on this blog are the first to call these kinds of questions silly?

It's especially funny coming from people who daily call on Hillary to release her tax returns, which is n't exactly a substantive issue on the minds of every day people.

Fundamentally, the debate was great for Obama and Clinton had a lot of problems. I think they were both excellent on substance and style (through I think Clinton wobbled on style).

I think the main problem was that MSNBC started out hard on Clinton and it didn't feel like Obama got hit as hard from my point of view, and I think that was good on balance for Clinton because as big a clunker that line about SNL was it reinforced that vision. But Obama had some skitish moments w/Farakan. I didn't pick up on the waiting for Clinton to answer the Russia question at all. But Russert pointed it out, so that made sense. I don't think this fundamentally hurts him, however.

I don't think Clinton did what she needed to do and I think the numbers will close faster b/c of the Nafta issue in Ohio.

Obama's statement that he would not be where he is today without the Jewish involvement in the civil rights movement was profoundly moving and meaningful. This history is often not acknowledged today, but it is remembered by Jews and it was wonderful to see that Obama knows and cares about this historic partnership.

For Clinton to heap praise on herself for "rejecting" the utterly insignificant and marginal independent party of NY is absurd. And denouncing is a much stronger word than rejecting. Denouncing means that you clearly think the views are despicable; rejecting means you don't accept them.

Sue, like, really. The point isn't that Obama should have used the word "reject" because it's somehow a better word than "denounce", it's because Russert used the word REJECT. And Obama seemed to avoid answering the question directly. And when a candidate seems to want to avoid answering a question it doesn't seem like a different kind of politics, it doesn't seem like the politics of hope, it seems like politics as usual.

Why didn't he say "Yes, I reject his endorsement and his views. That's not what my campaign is about." ?

Tim K,

Well, the cynics typically didn't think Obama could get this far, and yet here he is. And I strongly suspect that Obama is not about to start taking political advice from people who have been very wrong so far.

By the way, I am just more puzzled about the tax return thing than anything else. I have never understood why it would make sense to release it during the general election campaign but not the primary campaign, and it certainly doesn't make sense that she doesn't have the time to do it. She is losing for much more important reasons than that, however.

calling Farrakhan “minister Farrakhan” is one of them. He’s been declared persona non grata by everyone in the mainstream of our politics.

Jerry Falwell probably met this same criteria for quite a few people, but somehow I don't think you'd object if one of the candidates referred to him as Reverend Falwell, now would you?

"Did people really feel like Obama's initial response [on Farrakhan] was inadequate?"

Yeps. Very much.

By the way, for what it is worth, Obama did directly answer the question. As he explained, Farrakhan hasn't offered him anything, so there was nothing in particular to reject. But Obama is aware of what Farrakhan has said, and he has denounced those views. Which makes perfect sense, of course.

But more importantly, Obama has shown time and again that it is far more effective for him to reframe stupid questions than to constrain his answers within their implicit premises. Again, Tim K seems to think Obama is getting the politics of all this wrong, but the results say otherwise.

DTM:

The "cynics"? Talk about an Obama campaign talking point.

Have we now expanded the definition of "cynic" to mean anyone who has paid any close attention to the politics of the United States since, oh, I dunno... 1787?

Obama is not going to be able to get from now to November by waffling, hedging, dodging, flubbing, side-stepping and calling every criticism "silly."

The fact is Obama has not demonstrated a strong ability to be quick on his feet in answering tough questions, not that he's been given much practise doing so.

Tim K -

Yes, Russert did use the word reject.

But this is the way I think of it. Someone comes along and says to you, so do you reject hatemongers. And you say, I denounce them.

Since denouncing is stronger than rejecting, you have made a statement that goes beyond what is asked of you.

And by "conceding the point," Obama once again shows that he's willing to modify his views without worrying that someone will think that he actually is admitting something that undermines his case. Clinton really never does that and, to me, this shows that she does not have the temperament to be a president who can learn from anyone who has something to teach and from her own mistakes.

Ambinder much have been watching the debate with his friends in the Clinton Campaign.

Hillary didn't hit, and she got hit her hard on NAFTA, her Iraq vote, and special interests.

Every time Hillary pulls out a weak attack like "xerox" or her humorless sarcasm, Obama gets more votes.

And Hillary did zero to get any new votes.

If Obama beats her in not only Texas, but also Ohio, it will not only be total defeat but also total embarrassment for Hillary.

If you don't think Obama's Farrakhan connection is not significant to Jewish voters and other influential players you aren't paying attention.

DTM:

Russert asked Obama twice if he would reject Farrakhan's endorsement and he wouldn't even utter the word. It took Hillary to make an issue out of it for him to do it. That's the issue, it shows poor political instincts.

Farrakhan is Obama's running mate, as Willie Horton was Dukakis' one.

Tonight he lost the general election.

Marc,

Apparently you watched the debate through some sort of filter. Just about every other blogger and their comments section have called it for Obama, big time.

The man denounced and rejected Farrakahn. For the love of pete, isn't that enough? He also gave props to the Jewish community for historically being leaders on the civil rights front, saying he wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for their efforts.

What, does he have to say that he'd like to see Farrakahn strung up by his toenails?

People, please, he did everything but that. It's my firm belief that the man will get a huge majority of the Jewish vote in November. Bet on it.

Tim K, as others have noted, this is a question that reasonable people can differ on. It boils down to an arguably meaningless semantic debate on whether "reject" or "denounce" is the stronger verb. You think rejct is stronger, others think it's denounce.

If Hillary prevailed in that exchange, it was on that very question of semantics. Whether that's an issue to any voters is essentially a matter of personal opinion. You think so, others do not.

What does it even mean to reject an endorsement? He sure isn't going to put it on his web site or do any events with the man and he clearly renounces (let's try a new word) his racialist and disgusting ideas.

And if Obama has such poor political instincts, how has done so well against the front-runner who had all the big endorsements and the early money?

Tim K,

As an aside, various people have offered substantive criticisms of Obama and his views during the campaign. This just doesn't happen to be one of them.

Anyway, again you are asserting Obama's way of answering questions like this hasn't been politically effective, and that generally he has "poor political instincts." You are entitled to your opinion, but the obvious problem with these assertions is that the actual political results suggest very different conclusions.

Here's the dictionary, this is nonsense

Reject:
to refuse to have, take, recognize, etc.: to reject the offer of a better job.

Denounce:
to condemn or censure openly or publicly: to denounce a politician as morally corrupt.

tim k and sara (as well as mr. ambinder) again, need to look up the definition of words. sara and tim k, apparently, don't know what words really mean. if i say "do you hate nazis?" and you say "i loathe nazis!" do i not effectively answer the question? am i not going above and beyond the point of the initial question? denounce is the proper word. reject is not. look up the definitions. denounce is more qualitative. also, it refers NOT ONLY TO THE ENDORSEMENT, BUT TO HIS PLATFORMS, HIS VIEWS, AND HIS DERANGED ANTI-SEMATISM. by DENOUNCING farrakhan, you REJECT his endorsement. is this so hard to get?
seriously, you shills, learn to read, or research, anything before you make yourselves look like idiots. well, next time anyway.

Frank,

What connections does Obama have with Farrakhan, pray tell? Pleae note that the answer to my question requires facts not innuendo.


Marc,

I think you are overreaching here to imply that his use of his term of Minister Farrakhan is odd. Given Obama's background and political career, I don't he is an anti-semite.

Tim K, since you have your thong twisted up on this one, I reject your illogical arguments and denounce you as a Clintonian water-carrier for the closet Republicans.

Only a pitiable cretin would assume you can denounce someone without rejecting them.

Lucille Austero: Do you like ham?

Carl Weathers: No. I love it.

Talk about dodging the question. Too bad Hillary wasn't there to hold Carl's feet to the fire.

By the way, one of the odd things about the political theories of people like Tim K (and apparently Marc) is that they simultaneously require voters to be very sophisticated and very stupid. For example, the voters have to be sophisticated enough to know whatever very specific rhetorical code relating to Farrakhan they think Obama violated in his answer. But they also have to be stupid enough to care about that rhetorical issue more than they care about Obama's discussion of the role of Jewish people in the civil rights movement and the need to condemn anti-Semitism in the black community before black audiences.

Well, I'm not quite sure whether voters are too sophisticated or too stupid for Tim K's political theories, but one way or another those theories clearly aren't working.

I'm sorry, Hillary's neck was "leaden"? Thank you, Sean Hannity.

I get a great chuckle out of all those with blogs here, the media talking heads trying to parse this or that phrase into a plus or minus...

Through all of the above analysis y'all speak of how Hillary badgered him into this or hammered him on that...

What all of you are missing is that the badgering and hammering is what most of us are rebelling against.

The hectoring is what has gotten us backed into the corner of stalemate for the sake of partisan politics.

We are getting NOTHING done in this country. Our elected ones are so busy kneecapping each other around the bubble that is DC, they have completely forgotten about the rest of us out here in real life.

I do get a chuckle out of it. I sincerely hope the American people make themselves heard loud and clear to ALL of you bubble folks that business as DC usual just won't do anymore.

Vote hope, not fear. Vote unity, not divide and conquer.

Even The Corner folks agree that Obama won this exchange:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTM3MGI5NGQxMjg2NDUxNzY1MmJiMDZhZTZkY2E2NWE=

I thought it was inappropriate to ask the Farrakhan question in the first place. Is it a requirement for all African-American politicians to unequivocally say they do not share Mr. Farrakhan's views? No one has asked Mike Huckabee if he shares the views of Olympic Park bomber Eric Robert Rudolph. They're both evangelical Christians, perhaps they do!

also, how can anyone say hillary won the debate on substance when hillary said "the hundreds of thousands of people who donate to me are financing my campaign" and then, 5 minutes later, referenced how she loaned herself 5 million dollars. ON TOP OF refusing to release her tax returns (too busy.. yeah.. her staff of 700 can find pictures of obama in africa but not a tax return!!) which, by the way, would show how she financed her campaign in february.
their net worth went from 2million to almost 30million from 2004-now. 5 million of that new 32 million went to the campaign. not knowing where THAT financing comes from is troubling, seeing the clintons' checkered past with money (monks!)

Jeff:

I'm sorry but you're misunderstanding my point. We don't have a disagreement about whether "reject" or "denounce" is stronger. I don't care about that, this isn't a philosophical or linguistic debate. The point I was making is since Russert asked whether Obama "rejected" the endorsement, Obama should have answered in those terms directly. And when he neglected to do that and was again asked whether he "rejected" the endorsement, he should have replied by saying "yes I reject it." Instead he said something like "uh...well... uh... I can't make somebody not say he thinks I'm a good guy." Obama seemed uncomfortable and gave the impression he didn't want to answer the question. I think the idea he chose the word denounce because it was stronger is a little bit silly.

DTM:

Your argument concerning Obama's political results is faulty. The same could be said of Michael Dukakis in 1988. It could have been said in August of that year that Dukakis had demonstrated great political skill in winning his party's nomination, proven his electability, and dispatched silly political issues like Willie Horton. Since Willie Horton had been raised during the primaries and did not damage Dukakis. Although it, and other issues that did not hurt him in the primaries, were fatal in the general election.

Incidentally, I personally think Obama also deserved great credit for cutting Russert off before he could read a bunch of Farrakhan's most offensive sentiments to a national audience.

marc, you are really showing your true colors. i've been trying to defend your objectivity for a long time on this board, but this is really very telling.

asked about tax returns, HRC is evasive.

asked about presidential records, HRC is evasive.

these two issues go to the heart of transparency, honesty and experience. and they dont even register as a blip on your radar.

HRC was booed, AGAIN, for goodness sake.

And, with a straight face, she pointed to Saturday Night Live as evidence of a media "bias."

and yet, your blog, read by untold number of opinionmakers, is arguing that the use of the term "minister" was the game changer.

calm, collected, thoughtful, and INFORMED was Obama; HRC was quite often flustered.

jeez marc, i dont get what's up with you these days.

Alright Marc. I'm done with you. You're clearly delusional.

"i rejected it. i said that it would not be anything i would be comfortable with, and it looked as though i might pay a price for that"
-hillary about the independence party.
so, she's trying to say that, in new york state which, truly, has the largest concentration of jewish people in the world, that going out against the, what, 100 members of the independence party in favor of one of the largest and most important voting blocs in NY state was this amazing RISK she took.
that's winning substance? are you people joking?

Tim K

The only people who want to use a Willie Horton example is you.

I think what this person wrote expresses what I think about the stupid Farrakhan question:

>Why do they always ask the African American about Louis Farrakhan but they never ask the caucasian about controversial or negative comments that caucasian's make. For instance why didn't they ask Hillary about the "lynching" comments that Bill O'Reilly said about Michelle Obama or what about what the radio personality said today while introducing John McCain to an audience of supporters? I think the question was designed to bring Obama down."

The guy said he denounces his views and such.

The first comment summed it up pretty well.

This author's take on the debate is fantasyland. In PARTICULAR the Farrakhan part... he killed her on that. How you saw that otherwise casts serious doubts on you... whether those doubts are about bias or judgment, I can't say. I haven't read you much.

The first half hour of this debate killed her... her handlers got her calmed down a bit during the first break or we would have seen some looney tunes. I'd pay a lot to have been a fly on that wall.

And she was toast the second he said "Sounds good."

Tim K,

Except Obama is absolutely nothing like Dukakis, nor for that matter are the results in question. Specifically, it isn't just a matter of Obama winning the nomination, but rather it is how he is winning the nomination. In fact, the closest analogies to Obama's results in recent memory would be Clinton's and Reagan's. And if anyone in this race was like Dukakis, it would be Clinton.

Anyway, the bottomline is that invoking a bogeyman like Dukakis doesn't help your positive case. Yes, Dukakis proved to be an inept politician despite winning the nomination. That does absolutely nothing to show that you are right about Obama being an inept politician.

If Farakhann OFFERED to help Obama's campaign or do something (action), then Obama would have the option to reject the OFFER. This OFFER hasn't existed.

Farakhan made STATEMENTS, which Obama finds offensive, unacceptable and despicable, consequently Obama denounces those STATEMENTS. He does not just stop at denouncing those views or statements; he went further to DISSOCIATE himself from that object of those despicable statements (Farakhann) in the context appropriate - Jews, race and other areas such statments have been made by Farakhan. Obama cannot wish death on Farakhan for being human per se. He can wish death on him within a context, and he has done that in a polite, true, mature and appropriate way. McCain wishes death on Fidel Castro for being human per se. Obama doesn't play to the gallery and that's why his judgments have been so sound, because they are based on telling truths. Simple.

Another Jew for Obama.

...and here we are, again, distracted from the question of who won the debate, and we're arguing the difference between reject and denounce.

thanks marc. very much.

I thought Hillary shouting down the moderators when they wanted to get the heck off of healthcare was bombastic on her part and embarassing. Perhaps the whining about always getting the first question was an attempt at sympathy from women - look at these terrible men ganging up on poor me, but really it just looked whiny - why isn't answering first question an opportunity. Hillary was intent, it seemed, on complaining. Obama repeatedly tried to engage Hillary on the substantive differences in their health care plans, but Hillary was just dieing to turn it into a personal attack on Obama. I thought the way Obama absorbed Hillary's Ann Coulter-like badgering on Farrakhan and cooly and calmly turned it away, was especially presidential - just the way I want my President to turn aside aggressive talk at the negotiating table or from aggressive foreign leaders. I thought that was a golden moment for Obama. While Hillary's supporters claim she has great command of the facts, I didn't feel like she used any opportunity to show any mental agility on any of the issues. What I heard was not mental agility but emotional accusations. Saying that she thought it would be great for the U.S. to have a woman as president just made me think how much the U.S. needs a calm and cool black man to restore the world's confidence in our country.

Not exactly a profile in courage, is it, bipolar bear?

I thought Hillary shouting down the moderators when they wanted to get the heck off of healthcare was bombastic on her part and embarassing. Perhaps the whining about always getting the first question was an attempt at sympathy from women - look at these terrible men ganging up on poor me, but really it just looked whiny - why isn't answering first question an opportunity. Hillary was intent, it seemed, on complaining. Obama repeatedly tried to engage Hillary on the substantive differences in their health care plans, but Hillary was just dieing to turn it into a personal attack on Obama. I thought the way Obama absorbed Hillary's Ann Coulter-like badgering on Farrakhan and cooly and calmly turned it away, was especially presidential - just the way I want my President to turn aside aggressive talk at the negotiating table or from aggressive foreign leaders. I thought that was a golden moment for Obama. While Hillary's supporters claim she has great command of the facts, I didn't feel like she used any opportunity to show any mental agility on any of the issues. What I heard was not mental agility but emotional accusations. Saying that she thought it would be great for the U.S. to have a woman as president just made me think how much the U.S. needs a calm and cool black man to restore the world's confidence in our country.

To clarify, the first Clinton in my 12:27 post referred to Bill, and the second to Hillary.

Micheline:

They asked Barack Obama about Louis Farrakhan because the guy endorsed him publicly the other day.

And I'm glad you caught that. Obama actually made it through that entire exchange without saying "I reject his endorsement." Or anything that specific. The closest he came was "I denounce his views (on anti-semitism)" which isn't the same thing.

Why does it matter? It is so the candidate has to make a choice. He has to be willing to offend some small group like Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam and their supporters, in order to do the right thing.

It became apparent to me from the debate why Clinton blows her lead in every State. She is pretty annoying. Like the classmate who everyone loved to hate because she had to had the last word on every issue. She really cannot see the forest from the trees.

She had a filibuster on healthcare for the first 16 minutes. The exchanges were non-illuminating and the average listener probably learnt that a mandate is not a free government program but a command to buy insurance (bad for her). She also complained about the moderators being biased citing 60 minutes, interjected rudely, argued with the moderator over breaks, etc.

She recites facts [Ireland, Kosovo, etc.] but not in any way that responds to a question or that connects to the listener. She reminds me of how Kerry "won" all the debates against Bush and lost the war.

Her sea change argument is pitiful. She should not ask people to vote for her because she is female. The worrld has seen indira Ghandi, Bhutto, Golda Meir, etc. There is really no sea change here. In any case that is an argument that should be made by others not the putative beneficiary!

watched the debate. read your blog. one of us is extremely confused.

As a Jew, Obama's response on Farrakhan was an heartbreaker. That's all I want to say.

i also loved hillary's answer that she couldn't create jobs in NY, because she needed a democratic president. 'i only made the promise because i thought that al gore would be president. no democratic president means every campaign promise i made was moot. even though i never qualified my remark at that stage.'
hilarious.

Tim K,

So your theory is that Obama denounced Farrakhan because he didn't want to offend Farrakhan?

Seriously, this is the sort of nonsense the American people are rejecting in no uncertain terms.

as a blogger, i am not surprised tim k will not respond to me, or anyone else, that shows him he's an idiot who doesn't know what words mean.
and as a frequent internet visitor, i don't believe martin is jewish, or there is any reason to be heartbroken. i can change my name and make up an email address and say anything and everything i want.
'as 70 year old rabbi, obama told me he hated me cause i'm jewish'
doesn't make it true.
you don't explain yourself, martin, you're not adding anything to the conversation we're trying to have

Why the hell shall Obama reject or denounce Farrakhan? Why hasn't Russert asked Clinton the question?

Oh right, Obama is black! Like Farrakhan. So, they must think alike. And Marc, you are being a racist prick as well. And the oversensitive zionists better get used to it: Obama is the next President.

tbb, something else I've noticed about commenters: whenever their name is descriptive, you can be quite sure they're the opposite of what they claim to be.

So "Moderate Dem" is in fact a conservative Republican trying to stir up trouble; "Still Undecided" is most assuredly decided, and has probably already voted; and something tells me that "the bipolar bear" is neither ursine nor manic depressive.

Even setting aside reject/denounce... the word Obama used to characterize farrakhan's bile was "reprehensible."

Reprehensible is as strong a word as there is for that context. There aren't any stronger.

There is no one in the world, gentile or jewish that finds them worse than reprehensible... reprehensible covers as bad as it can be.

This game of who can denounce him the loudest is incredibly weak. It reminds me way too much of who has the biggest flag sticker on their car.

"10.09 pm. Farrakhan. Does Obama understand that saying he has consistently denounced him is not the same as simply saying, "I denounce him"? A weak response - reminiscent of Dukakis. (By the way, why is it somehow only a question for Jewish Americans that Farrakhan is a fascist hate-monger? It's a question for all Americans.) Obama's Farrakhan response suggests to me he is reluctant to attack a black demagogue. Maybe he wants to avoid a racial melee. But he has one. He needs to get real on this. Weak, weak, weak. Clinton sees an opening and pounces. She wins this round. He is forced to adjust. His worst moment in any debate since this campaign started. I'm astounded he couldn't be more forceful. His inability to say by himself, unprompted, that Farrakhan's support repels him and he rejects it outright really unsettles me.

I have not believed that Obama has an ounce of sympathy for a creep like Farrakhan. But Obama has now made me doubt this. If David Duke called John McCain a good man, would McCain hesitate to say he'd rather Duke opposed him? If this is how Obama wants to tackle this emotive issue, he needs to get real."

Andrew Sullivan, Obama supporter, doubts him on Farrakhan

Wow, I took a totally different bead on the "denounce" vs. "reject" thing. I thought Clinton's interjection there made her sound kind of silly, like she needed to say something just for the sake of being the one talking. When Obama kind of stared her down and then said, fair enough, I do both -- I just thought she looked a little deflated and awkward, like maybe she really didn't know where she was going with that in the first place.

And you don't mention the Clinton tax returns, which is surprising to me. For some reason, I just never imagined a televised debate bringing that up. And man, talk about significant hedges. I don't think HRC saw it coming either.

Otherwise a pretty good analysis.

Tim K,

I don't think he said anything positive about Farrakhan. At least he didn't say that he is a strong promoter of family values or reforming ex-cons as some idiots do. The guy denounced him. To me that reads like a rejection. I think this whole episode is an example of people using anything as an excuse to not support someone.

I just looked at the transcript of the debate which is available from the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/us/politics/26text-debate.html?pagewanted=18&_r=1

This was Russert's question: "On Sunday, the headline in your hometown paper, Chicago Tribune: "Louis Farrakhan Backs Obama for President at Nation of Islam Convention in Chicago." Do you accept the support of Louis Farrakhan?"

Obama: You know, I have been very clear in my denunciation of Minister Farrakhan's anti-Semitic comments. I think that they are unacceptable and reprehensible. I did not solicit this support. He expressed pride in an African-American who seems to be bringing the country together. I obviously can't censor him, but it is not support that I sought. And we're not doing anything, I assure you, formally or informally with Minister Farrakhan.

Russert:Do you reject his support?

Obama:Well, Tim, you know, I can't say to somebody that he can't say that he thinks I'm a good guy. (Laughter.) You know, I -- you know, I -- I have been very clear in my denunciations of him and his past statements, and I think that indicates to the American people what my stance is on those comments.

So in the first answer Obama tried to denounce his views without rejecting the endorsement. The second time he again didn't want to reject the endorsement, but he then felt he had to denounce him and his views.

The point: It would have been a lot easier to answer it the right way the first time.

tim k. and dtm,

tim russert's question was provocative and shocking to Obama. It appeared that even Hillary was startled. I imagine that she will have literature on his Farrakhan issue come sunrise. Tim Russert was only doing his job. I concer(agree) with other posters that I think the author of this opinion article was not watching the same debate. Tonight was great for Obama and somewhat strange for Hillary. It was remarkable, really. She was acting very odd tonight, unprofessional and desperate at times. Obama seemed to have his name on the door. It is not his fault. He fits the bill. Hillary is mean-spirited. Obama cares about the American people. There is a place for Hillary in our government, she can do wonders for America with all of her passion, her place just isn't the White House or the Oval Office. Not this time.

~Kellie

"By the way, why is it somehow only a question for Jewish Americans that Farrakhan is a fascist hate-monger?"

One of the greatest tragedies befalling the English language in recent years is that the word "fascist" has been devalued utterly and rendered sadly, increasingly meaningless. I would have expected more from a guy with an Orwell quote at the top of his page.

Hillary's getting all caught up in the difference between the words "reject" and "denounce" was rather juvenile. I think most people watching know the 2 words mean very much the same thing.

I thought Obama handled it well...like he was dealing with a child over a trivial issue...and so just went along.

This was one more attempt at Clintonian parsing of words to distract people from the big picture: that Obama is a far more compelling and capable candidate for president.

as a white jewish woman - I agree many jews are too sensitive -- things are not working in Israel so something has to change

Two points on the Farrakhan exchange tonight:
1) someone on CNN - young African American said - and he is 10000% correct -- why is it every time there is a black politician on a stage - they are asked to denounce Farrakhan? He's a bad guy but why - for example -- doesn't John McCain denouce Trent Lott? Lott said Strom Thurmond would have made a great POTUS and we would not have some of the problems we have now if he was President - but no one asks McCain or any other white politician to distance themselves from Lott?

2) I thought Hillary was going to be gracious - a la Obama to Biden at the Des Moines debate - and refer to when she ran for Senate and all the photos of Hillary kissing Yassar Arafat's wife were all over the place and how she relates to Barack on that point-- but nope -- she snapped me right out of my delusion that she would be the big person -- by trying to drive a stake into Obama's (I don't like Israel) heart ---
In fact Hillary Clinton did Obama a HUGE favor by pressing the Farrakhan issue -- because Obama not only went further in his denouce/reject of the demi god but he did it with humor and grace -- and the audience applauded him for it

It is over -- lets hope Hillary bows out gracefully

definitely not ursine, but definitely am bipolar.
and i'm large and hairy, which, i guess, could be ursine. just not in the literal sense of the word.

TR - Do you reject his support?

Obama - You know, I -- you know, I -You know, I -- you know, IYou know, I -- you know, IYou know, I -- you know, IYou know, I -- you know, I.....

Coming August, over and over on every television set next to you.

>>It's especially funny coming from people who daily call on Hillary to release her tax returns, which isn't exactly a substantive issue on the minds of every day people.

So in the first answer Obama tried to denounce his views without rejecting the endorsement. The second time he again didn't want to reject the endorsement, but he then felt he had to denounce him and his views.

I don't think Obama cares the slightest bit about Farrakhan's endorsement and would almost certainly prefer not to have received it, but the plain meaning of the exchange to me is that Obama doesn't feel like he has the ability to reject a given endorsement -- that is, an endorsement is operative in one direction only.

Now, from more desirable endorsers, Obama can appear on stage with them, and thank them for their support, and so on, but I don't see any yearning for the "minister" in that answer.

If Stephanie Tubbs-Jones endorses Obama at the convention, do you think he's going to reject it coming from someone who idiotically and/or offensively described him as a Somali national?

Tim K - Hillary going after Obama on reject/denounce allowed him to swat her away like a fly by saying "ok, if you think reject is stronger than denounce, let's go with reject". She simply can't keep having moments where she tries to fire a gun at him and he catches the bullet like it's a piece of popcorn. Those moments are killing her campaign (people who saw the debate in Texas last Thursday are currently supporting him by 22 points according to the latest CNN survey -- here's a hint: Xerox comment.)

tim k,
when you posted the transcript i did not check ahead to see who posted it, and i honestly thought you were arguing against an earlier post of your own.

Seriously, the Medvedev thing is trite. Hillary doesn't need to worry about his name, because her point, and Obama's, was that Putin would remain in charge anyhow. And we all know this.

Of course, Tim K cut off the extended exchange Obama had with Russert. But the rest is available at the link.

Anyway, I get that Tim K believes Obama won't be any good at this politics thing until Obama starts taking Tim K's political advice. And I get Tim K won't be convinced he is wrong about his political theories unless Obama wins the Presidency (or maybe two terms--who knows?).

Regardless, we shall see.

As one of the CNN pundits pointed out in his post debate analysis: Isn't interesting that every major Black political candidate has to dutifully repudiate Farrakhan as if this is some kind of litmus test for Whites to find the candidate safe? When White candidates run, they were not made to disavow Strom Thurmond (when he was living) for his racist views. Just the double standard that quite frankly has worn thin except for the race baiters out there...

I agree with what others have noted: why is it only the black candidates who have to denounce Farrakhan?

I am sure McCain has got all sorts of rather far right supporters in his camp...and we know Bush did...and no one asks them to denounce all of these people.

For that matter we know Hillary has all sorts of shady people supporting her, and she doesn't get asked to denounce them...in fact, she even takes money from them!

In the final analysis, I think voters see through Hillary's desperation tactics and see them as being trivial and petty, totally irrelevant to the problems they are facing on a daily basis.

Obama won tonight by a mile: as others have noted, he came across as presidential, she came across as someone with frustrated ambition.

Tim K,

Obama:Well, Tim, you know, I can't say to somebody that he can't say that he thinks I'm a good guy. (Laughter.) You know, I -- you know, I -- I have been very clear in my denunciations of him and his past statements, and I think that indicates to the American people what my stance is on those comments.


There are two interpretations. 1. Obama is saying that he has no control as to who will support him but rejects him. 2. This one is less generous, he should not have said "Well, Tim, you know, I can't say to somebody that he can't say that he thinks I'm a good guy." because it is ambigous. But the fact that he denounced the guy's belief is satisfactory. I still think the question is rather silly and doesn't say anyhing.

Jeff:

When we have a discussion I almost feel like I'm in a university level seminar. But political debates don't really get decided on the basis of what Obama was thinking about, or what he thought he could do or not do, or what Obama meant to say or imply. It's only about what he directly and explicitly said. That's all that matters here.

Why couldn't Obama have said "I don't accept him support. I'd, frankly, rather not have that endorsement. I don't agree with many of the views he has expressed as they have been deeply hurtful to so many Americans, and go against the whole basis of my campaign for president."?

But instead he gave a very weak response, and only toughened it up when pressed by Russert and then Clinton. You're telling me it doesn't trouble you at all that he couldn't get there by himself?

"Why the hell shall Obama reject or denounce Farrakhan? Why hasn't Russert asked Clinton the question? "

Pretty sure this is because Farrakhan endorsed Obama and said he was "the hope of the entire world".

If he had said that about Clinton, or McCain, or even Ralph Nader, they would have been expected to decry it similarly.

Martin - "That's all I want to say" is not enough. Why was Obama's denunciation and rejection of a guy from whom he never sought an endorsement a "heartbreaker" to you? Why was Obama's reference to the American Jewish community's historical and significant role in civil rights movement a "heartbreaker" to you? Please, explain.

Hey all,

I'm one of the few young Clinton supporters around (though in Florida, there are more than you'd think).

As a general comment, I don't understand the angst that Obama supporters hold for Hillary. It's divisive and poorly founded. I don't hate Obama, and I don't hate you guys. I just think Hillary has more substantive policies and Obama has been more of hot air.

Furthermore, Clinton has a much better chance of winning the general election. This election will be decided in two states: Florida and Ohio. Obama has absolutely zero chance of winning Florida and at most, the same chance of winning Ohio.

I don't doubt that Obama will do better in a lot of red states, but not states we can win. Losing 55-45 instead of 65-35 is not going to make a difference, and there is a real likelihood that Obama could lose a state like New Jersey.

I'm not saying this to attack you guys. I'm just asking you to step out of your Obama support and try to look at this objectively. Already, McCain now leads Obama in head-to-head polls.

The optimal ticket is Hillary-Obama. Imagine Hillary getting all the Democratic base and Obama using his eloquence to draw independent and minority voters. You don't realize how quickly you'd support that ticket once Obama started campaigning for it.

Please...someone respond to this objectively without getting nasty.

Hello? Farrakhan did not "endorse" Obama. He said basically that he thought Obama was the cat's pajamas. So, Tim K, stop talking about the "endorsement," because it did not exist.

What about that crazy Clinton fan who stabbed an Obama fan?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0225081ortiz1.html

Should Clinton have rejected the "endorsement" of this guy? Of course not. He's just some nutso who prefers her for president. Rejecting a nutso's *admiration* means nothing, and indeed suggests that you give the nutso a degree of importance, however slight. Obama had it right from the beginning: denounce the nutso outright and thus keep him in the realm of "unimportant nutso-land."

Tim, you are lolarious and also wrong, so very wrong.

(And no, I'm not a Jew, but I am from Long Island, and it's almost the same thing here.)

"1) someone on CNN - young African American said - and he is 10000% correct -- why is it every time there is a black politician on a stage - they are asked to denounce Farrakhan?"

"Such a question would have ONLY been asked of a Black question, and anyone who has a problem with his answer is predisposed to believe he may harbor antis-sematic views. You know, like all of us Black folks"

"Oh right, Obama is black! Like Farrakhan. So, they must think alike. And Marc, you are being a racist prick as well."

Ah, the old good liberal paranoia!

New LATimes poll: McCain leads both Obama and Clinton. Before Obama being called out about his oposition to partial-birth abortion ban. Dems are doomed.

Tim K

I think his question is clear enough. I am not all bothered by it. As a black person, I can say that you are constantly being asked such question that after a while it gets tiresome.

in barck

When will the likes of you stop with the Style over Substance mantra? It's not only inaccurate, it's insulting to Senator Obama's supporters (who, if you check the demographic, tend to be college educated--which usually of implies INTELLIGENT). I would never support Obama if I thought he lacked substance. I don't appreciate being made to feel like a complete tool--or a cultist or a maniac. There's a not-so-fine line between slighting a candidate and slighting his supporters. Remember, we're the people you want to vote for YOUR candidate, should she win the nomination. God forbid.

Tim K,

I hate to pick on you, as every else seems to be, but I definitely have to take issue with one of your earlier comments...

"It's especially funny coming from people who daily call on Hillary to release her tax returns, which isn't exactly a substantive issue on the minds of every day people."

I would think she should be the first to release her tax returns. Her secrecy and the litany of Clinton scandals are, unfortunately, a very important issue for many people, especially those that think politicians are too easily influenced by big donors and financial interests. (and especially general election voters wary of the Clintons.) I for one would like to know where my leaders get their money. This is especially true of a politician who has used her "own" money to finance her campaign and whose husband rented out the Lincoln bedroom like a Motel 6 (or maybe I should say the Ritz, given the required donation level). There is often good reason not to trust politicians that appear to be hiding something.

Oh please, apol, you want to play with the truth like that, I'll say that McCain flip-flopped on torture with his vote last week. Hooray!

McCain was +1 in the last iteration of that poll too, by the way. The only poll that's shown positive movement for him is Rasmussen. It'll take having a dem nominee and multiple swing state polls to get any sense of where this race is going.

Barack Hussein Obama was born in,as a muslim I cannot trust obama, sorry jew for obma I am a muslim for hllary, he will divide us Honolulu,
Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM from
Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHIEST from Wichita,
Kansas.

Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. When Obama was two
years old, his parents divorced.

His father returned to Kenya. His mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a
RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia.

When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia.

Obama attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta.

He also spent two years in a Catholic school.

Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim.

He is quick to point out that, "He was once a Muslim, but that he also
attended Catholic school."

Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that
Obama's
introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this influence was
temporary at best.

In reality, the senior Obama returned to Kenya soon after the divorce,
and never again had any direct influence over his son's education.

Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham,
introduced his stepson to Islam.

Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school in Jakarta.

Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim
terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world.

Since it is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking Major
public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined
the
United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim
background.

Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential
candidacy.

The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside
out, what better way to start than at the highest level - through the
President of the United States, one of their own!!!!

ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office - he DID NOT use
the Holy Bible, but instead the Kuran (Their equivalency to our Bible,
but very different beliefs)

Obama also refuses to pledge allegiance the the USA flag. How can
someone who wants to be president refuse to commit to the USA.

Before you vote for any candidate I'm sure you can search the internet
and find out about all the candidates.

"It's not only inaccurate, it's insulting to Senator Obama's supporters"

Worst, it's racism! Scream racism, fast!

Regarding the "Clinton supporter who stabbed an Obama supporter", allow me to point out that the Obama supporter had attacked the Clinton supporter, and was choking him, when he retaliated by stabbing the attacker.

If you want to spin crazy, at least be accurate. Obama supporters are the ones fainting and needing o2 tanks, while simultaneously being unable to name one accomplishment of their idol.

Mike Hasson, get the hell out of here. Posting lies doesn't help anybody.

mike hasson is a fuc**ng idiot. i'm sure that's something everyone can agree on. EVERYONE.
especially the "Before you vote for any candidate I'm sure you can search the internet
and find out about all the candidates."
so ironic.

You missed one.

When Russert questioned Obama on Iraq, Obama claimed he was against the Iraq war from the get go, but then said he would reinvade Iraq if Al Qaeda moves in after the US moves out.

So, Obama as president, would Invade Iraq in a preemptive strike if Iraq has a regeim that threatens the US and the West? But he would not have voted to authorize the use of force back in 2002 under the very same circumstance?

How can this clown still be believable?

PLEASE Before you vote, take a look at this ------------- More than from speeches, we can see where the candidates real values come from.
The church we attend or don’t attend, and the company we keep speaks volumes about our character and values.

Here is Barack Obama’s Church: Trinity Union Church of Christ in Chicago, look it up on Http://www.tucc.org

The head pastor of TUCC and Obamas spiritual advisor, Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. praises Louis Farrakhan, and the Nation of Islam in the church magazine. www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/14/AR2008011402083.html - In 1982 Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr, and the church launched Trumpet Newsmagazine; Wright's daughters serve as publisher and executive editor.

In return, Louis Farrakhan has endorsed presidential candidate Barack Obama, saying he is the “hope of the entire world”.

Obama claims “I decry racism and anti-Semitism in every form”. But why hasn’t Obama renounced the Trinity Union Church of Christ, or Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A.Wright? Praise for an anti-Semitic demagogue is not a minor difference or an intra-church issue. Wright is not just Obama's pastor, he's a key member of Obama's circle.

Beyond the Farrakhan issue is the TUCC’s anti White, and Anti American mission. “We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black” and excludes all other races. http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

“African-centered thought, unlike Eurocentrism, does not assume superiority and look at everyone else as being inferior” This statement implies that African Centered thought is superior to European (code word for white), which is a contradiction of the statement itself. http://www.tucc.org/talking_points.htm

Black conservative pundit Erik Rush said the church has embraced "things African above things American," and he claimed that this should be as alarming as a Republican presidential candidate "belonging to the Aryan Brethren Church of Christ."

If Obama’s Actions matched his words, he would not be a member of this anti-Semitic church.

To be fair, here is information about Hillary Clinton’s church.
Hillary Clinton has been a Methodist her entire life. She attended First United Methodist Church in Park Ridge, Ill. The Clintons currently attend Foundry United Methodist Church in Washington D.C. ---- ---- You can look up Hillary’s church at umc.org.

The United Methodist Church home page shows people of all races engaging in activities to support their Christian values.

The Catholic church I belong to welcomes Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians, Pacific Islanders, and anyone who walks in the door.

Please pass this along to everyone you know, but especially those who will be voting in the upcoming elections in TX, OH, RI, VT, and VT.

Racism practiced by any color is still racism.


Democrats have a history of rightful outrage over public servants memberships in clubs that exclude non whites and women. Why are they not equally outraged over Barack Obama’s membership in the “Blacks Only” Church, Trinity Union Church of Christ.

Senator Ted Kennedy accused Justice Alito of belonging to men only clubs, and associating with people opposed to the inclusion of women in private institutions.

California Democrat Dianne Feinstein asked US Attorney General Nominee Mukasey's about his previous memberships in men only clubs.

The Democratic Party and the Federation of Women Lawyers objected to the nomination of Anthony Kennedy to the US Supreme Court because of his past memberships in all men clubs, including the Olympic Club in San Francisco. He had not been a member of these clubs for years, but the liberals wing of the Democratic party and other liberal interests still objected.

johnny at work should learn how to listen and to read.

i'll let you go re-read the transcript so you can see how wrong you are and how dumb making lies up makes you look.

and al qaeda didn't take over iraq in 2002. are you 12 or do you just not know how to read so well?
and you call obama the clown.

Nader, AS muslim I will support ralph nader all the way over barack obama , obama supported lieberman, at least I feel nader will be much more fair in middle east that obama or clinton,and at least ralph nader is not a lois farakan supporter has a compelling reason to run… candidate rights. We need more than a political binary. More choices. Look, I like Obama. I think he is an exceptional compared to the pail that usually run. I might vote for him. But if people really got to know Nader (like I have) they just might be reconsidering their vote like me. Obama used to be for a single payer Healthcare system and now he is not. Without single payer healthcare we run the gamble of putting insurance companies first in line for corporate welfare. Obama used to be opposed to Israel, and now he is not. There is 1.3 trillion cubic feet of natrual gas sitting off Palestinean coastal waters that might go to the Israeli domestic market… while Palestine goes without power
http://kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=24464 Obama was against the war, but he has voted to fund it. If congress had stopped funding the war then they could have ended the war. Cheney challenged them to do it (remember?), but they did not. Obama now seems to be wafering on his timetable for withdraw. Let us not forget that Nixon campaigned to end the Vietnam war in 6 months but ran into “complications”.
Before you all go bashing Nader consider whether you would like to run for office one day. And if so… would you like to be pigeon holed into being a democrat or republican. Our first president warned us about the dangers of a two party system… and democracy is fundamentally about choice. and you can’t have choice without options.
Ralph nader at least is not a farrakan supporter like obama,When bill clinton offered arafat the deal with ehud barack arafat should have tooken it. I feel; hillary and barack are the same whenit comes to middle east nader will make peace, and true peace

YES, THE OBAMA=MUSLIM COPYPASTA SHOWS UP AT LAST.

I was waiting for it!

Thanks, Mike "Hasson"! Your last name sure does sound Muslim!

kdc:

I'm not saying Clinton shouldn't release her tax returns, I was just pointing out it's a process story, and I don't think most people care about that. I know these types of questions are pursued much more forcefully when they concern Clinton. And I don't accept the argument that the Clinton scandals of the 1990's justify that treatment because those scandals were part of a right-wing witchhunt designed to destroy Bill and Hillary Clinton personally and politically. I get tired of hearing Democrats criticizing the Clintons for ethics and sounding just like Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell or Tom DeLay.

Johnny at Work,

Even though this whole mess is called the War on Terror, I think we all know that invading Iraq had nothing to do with stopping terrorists, and more specifically, Al Qaeda. He would have voted against the authorization to invade Iraq because it had nothing to do with the real problem. So Obama should be praised for actually doing something worthwhile about terrorism, unlike Bush.

"When will the likes of you stop with the Style over Substance mantra? It's not only inaccurate, it's insulting to Senator Obama's supporters (who, if you check the demographic, tend to be college educated--which usually of implies INTELLIGENT)."

As a college professor (not a lecturer on leave), let me assure you that the demographic of college students is generally naive and gullible.

Intelligence generally relates to future potential. Unfortunately, wisdom is a completely different metric, and one that is far more important when selecting a president.

Many inelligent, unexperienced people get sucked in by hype. Whether it's the Nigeria scam or Don Lapre sales pitches, people sucker for it, because it sounds good.

Obama sounds good. Just don't ask for details, becuase then the whole fabric falls to threads, and his "hope" message evaporates.

as a muslim I cannot trust obama because of his stance and alliance with lieberman, and I do not think he is cabable of making peace with jews in middle east ans they willl look at him as a muslim extremist, and they will not tke hillary seriously either as she is a women, so I feel they can trust a lebanesseee christian like ralph nader alot more than they can trust barck or hillarrry opr billaiarry!!!the jews and the arabs will trust nader on this issu. nader will take senior votes away from hillary, and youth vote away from obama !!!he will make a differene this time

I, for one, am intrigued by Mike Hasson's ideas and wish to subscribe to his newsletter.

...OK, when I have nothing to add but quotes from Arrested Development and the Simpsons, I think that means I've done enough to lower the intellectual content of the thread. Until Marc's next installment!

Some contributors here mentioned it, and one or two recognized the importance of the issue - the Hillary thing's refusal to release her income tax record. I say that this refusal sums up the case. Not fit for public office. I wish the Clintons a long life in oblivion, gnashing their teeth, shaking their fists at unsympathetic gods, weeping into their pillows on a shared bed, in short, hell on earth.

In Hind sight everyone can say Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terror. And whether or not you believe the trumped up Al Qaeda connection in 2002, it was agreed in the UN and world community that Sadaam was a threat. It was belived that he still had WMD's. He was threatening the west, he was supporing terrorists and suicide bombers in Gaza and Lebannon.

That is why Congress authorized the use of force in 2002.

Now Obama says that under the same threat to the west, even though we are now certain there are no WMDs, he will invade Iraq pre-emptively if Al Qaeda occupies Iraq after the US leaves.

You gotta be kidding?? Iraq will be less of a threat to the US and President Obama will invade?

I guess he wants us to know he's just as tough and stupid as a Republican.

Marc - You are flat wrong about Farrakhan being "declared persona non grata by everyone in the mainstream of our politics". Here's Joe Lieberman, 9/26/00 (via CNN):

"Asked if he was willing to meet Farrakhan, [Senator] Lieberman told the radio network: "I am very open to that."

"Minister Farrakhan has said a few things, including earlier in the campaign, that I thought were just not informed but, you know, I have respect for him and I have respect for the Muslim community generally," Lieberman said.

"I'd be open to sitting and talking to Minister Farrakhan. It hasn't sort of come together yet but I look forward to it," he added.[...]

Lieberman said he admired Farrakhan for his efforts to register voters ahead of the Nov. 7 election..."I look at anything that anybody does to get people to register and to vote (as) really at the heart of what the democracy is about," he added. "So I admire what Minister Farrakhan is doing there."

Joe Lieberman can say he admires and wants to meet Minister Farrakhan as a vice-presidential candidate yet somehow Obama denoucing the same man in far stronger terms than Lieberman is outside the mainstream? Does not compute.

Farrakhan only "endorsed" to sabotage Barack Obama. He does not like Barack and did this to hurt his candidacy. This was a low blow he is pissed that BHO does not defer to him.

Common sense is not common.

As a Jew I was insulted and offended by Russert's question and tone. I was also plenty happy with Obama's first response and thought it pitch perfect. When Hillary Clinton pushed it I felt pandered to -- and not in a good way. It made me recoil. It was repulsive. Obama's second response was also very strong, but to my ear totally unnecessary.

But the thing that a lot of pundits overlook and really don't understand is how significant it was for Obama to appeal to the historical alliance between blacks and Jews in the civil rights struggles. That was a powerful moment and I'm sure it impressed a lot of Jews in ways that few outside the Jewish community would pick up on and understand.

First, it demonstrated a much deeper understanding of the Jewish community than was demonstrated by Clinton's pander. A lot of people outside the Jewish community don't really know about the Jewish involvement in the civil rights struggles. And a lot of people, even if they know it, tend not to acknowledge it. But that's common knowledge within the Jewish community. That lack of knowledge, that lack of acknowledgement is - in a certain sense - an open wound for the Jewish community, and is so in ways that go far beyond some sense of being slighted.

Second, he appealed to me as a Jew not with a crass Clintonian pander to my baser fears and hatreds but with a hopeful appeal to me to help repair an historically rich and significant relationship between blacks and Jews. Do not underestimate the power and significance of that appeal.

A lot of Jews are, I think, quite willing and eager to hear that kind of message. As an American I was going to vote for Obama anyway. But tonight he gave me a reason - a good reason - to vote for him as a Jew.

I was not able to watch the debate tonight, but by the sounds of the comments it sounds like BHO was the winner. She lost everything for me when in the last debate, when HRO commented on the authenticity of Barack Obama's speeches. I think the point needs to be made that this is a horrible excuse for politics. Politics is supposed to be about issues, and the American people deserve more than "change you can xerox" type comments. This is a prime example of politics as usual for the Clintons. If the honorable senator had read the press releases about Barack's co-chairman and contributor to his speeches, this would not have become an issue.

The point remains that a debate, is supposed to draw distinctions between candidates on issues. Debate is not a time for slander or libel. A Debate is not a mud slinging contest. It is time we reject swift boat politics, especially in debate! Senator Clinton should take responsibility for distracting Americans from the issue at hand-who is the best person to lead the free world.

It is time we, as a democratic party, stand up and set an example for all politicians that slander will not stand. That debates are not tabloid-TV. That politics is not a soap oprah. We are electing the leader of the free world, an icon of democracy and freedom-we cannot afford to be distracted by sound-bite speeches and ridiculous, groundless accusations. WE DESERVE MORE.
- Show quoted text -

No matter what you want to believe about Farrakhans endorsement of Obama, Obama's church, Trinity United Church of Christ is still racist. And, TUCC's pastor and Obama's spiritual leader, Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, who does praise Farrakhan, is still a racist.

Check it out here http://www.tucc.org

As always with Senator Clinton's debate performance, the more I think about it, the worse it gets.

It just occurred to me how utterly reprehensible her parsing of words on the Farrakhan thing was. What is she suggesting?! She openly suggested, on national television, that Obama is essentially a bigot. It's utterly and totally reprehensible. She has the gall to say "shame" on Obama when her campaign has been a clownish, shameful farce and she and her husband should not just go away, they should go to hell.

Yes we do deserve more. We deserve more than a Black Racist in the Whitehouse. Is the Trinity Union Church of Christ what we want to show the world the Us is about?

Yes we do deserve more. We deserve more than a Black Racist in the Whitehouse. Is the Trinity Union Church of Christ what we want to show the world the US is about?

With all due respect, the Dukakis - Obama comparison holds no water.

Al Gore did raise the issue of weekend furlough passes for murderers during the '88 Democratic primaries but only in passing during one debate AND he never mentioned Horton by name, nor mentioned his skin color. It was during the general election that Lee Atwater, Papa Bush's Master of the Dark Arts, made the issue what it was. He changed Horton's name from Will to "Willie", found the scariest picture he could to illustrate that Horton was a black man and hammered home on that one case. Dukakis, in turn, compounded the peril by not quickly or forcefully responding to the charges. In his trepidation to get dirty with Bush, combined with his opposition to the death penalty, (or more so, his opposition to the death penalty for his wife's fantasy rapist/killer...another great moment in journalistic history), he reinforced the image of his being a weak liberal.

This nonsense tonight was totally ginned up by Mr. Tim Potato trying to look like a tough guy. Obama thinks Farrakhan's view are reprehensible. End of story. There are no other anti-Semitic issues to manufacture, at least none that I know of. So even if Obama was as timid as Dukakis, which I doubt he is, it still could never hurt him as much.

Obama is vacuous at best. I hope that the "We are the change we wish to see" people will see that there is no "call to action", but a call to self congratulations and empty aphorisms galore. Universal healthcare that isn't? That is not change I can believe in.

Because of Hillary, millions of kids have healthcare (SCHIP), there are resources for domestic violence victims (VAWA), women can get Plan B over the counter, and children are placed more quickly in the best home environment available to them (Adoption and Safe Families Act). That is change I can believe in.

Folks,

I'd like to throw this out to you since this seems to be a commentary of some substance so your input would be valued.

My take on this past week is that Hillary has come across to voters as lacking integrity and that this is the reason she is losing voters. I'd compare her campaign to Romney's on the GOP side. Both of them started with one kind of verbage and persona and over time have morphed based on the politics of the moment.

Whereas Obama and McCain were more measured. When people said Obama was lacking substance, it worked to his favor because he didn't have to change anything he was saying, just bring out the ideas of the moment when that moment was appropriate.

I've found that in the U.S. having some consistency of message and values is seen as supremely important in how we view our leaders. Personally, I think there is a line between consistency and stubborness which we all learned from GWB can be an awful thing.

In this case however, I think Hillary's many personalities has come across like someone without much emotional control and Obama has seemed to do a good job of staying even tempered. My wife called Hillary menopausal (I chuckled but thought it was a little mean).

This is hopefully an objective analysis. I'd like to know what you think. Thanks!

Obama is a racist, just like his church, and his spiritutal leader. http://www.tucc.org

If Obama really rejects Farrakhan, why won't he do the same to his racist, anti semitic, anti white and anti American church?

Obamas actions do not match his words.

adam, thoughtful post. dont be disallusioned by the vitriol by some posters about sen. clinton.

i'm not familiar with any polls that show mccain beating obama head to head. the latest polls i've seen, the ones obama even mentioned at the debate tonight, all show obama besting mccain. right now.

the problem with hillary:

1) her unfavorability numbers. nearly half of voters already have made up their mind that they wont vote for her. those numbers go up, they dont go down.

2) she unites the GOP like no one else can. mccain has some lingering problems among conservatives; and as he moves more and more to the right, its possible that independents will get turned off, if democrats are able to frame this shift correctly.

3) she cant, or at least, hasnt been able to so far attract independents. independents will decide the election and she cant crack that code. no sign that that will change.

4) african americans. like it or not, there's been a earthquake in terms of black support for "the clintons." many many many many african americans feel the clintons betrayed them in their attempt to win the nomination. this, i fear, shows no sign of being forgotten. democrats have a no more loyal voting block than blacks, and it seems that a large number might stay home if she gets the nod.

5) she's proven herself to be not the strongest campaigner. this may change when facing "the republican attack machine" which i think she has more comfortabilty with, but she's been all over the map in this campaign, and has had NO consistent message. her theme and tone and message have changed from day one of this campaign. that may change, but it may not.

6) she has, regrettably, developed a man problem.

7) her experience argument falls completely flat against john mccain. he's been in washington for 25 years; he has a long record of legislation. she can run against obama on "experience" now, but all of that falls by the wayside against mccain. she'll try to reposition herself as a "change agent" against mccain, but she cant do it as well as obama. with mccain v. hillary its basically looked at as two incumbents running; mccain for his time in washington, hillary for being a clinton. with the experience argument goint to mccain, the strongest change argument she will have will be a gender change, and that will alienate enough men to make it difficult for her to win.

8) mccain will run on foreign policy; she voted for the war, and this will be a killer for her. all mccain has to do is say: 'hillary takes whatever position is politically popular. she's for the war until its no longer popular, then she's against the war. we need a candidate with principle, vision...'

9) like it or not, she's run a pretty nasty campaign against obama. i dont think "mccain democrats" will be too much of an issue come november (or at least i hope), but i do worry that both candidates supporters have developed an unusually unhealthy hatred for the other.

10) the democratic reagan. obama scares the GOP much more than hillary does. the GOP is hoping she gets it, but they know, deep down, that obama has the ability to do for democrats what reagan did for the republicans. peggy noonan (reagan's speechwriter) tipped me off to this a long time ago, but today i read a devestatingly insightful article about how reagan and obama are unique in the politics.

here's the article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120398899374792349.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

finally, i've thought about them sharing a ticket. i work for a superdelegate, and he seems confident that there will be tremendous pressure put on them both to unite the party, but i really dont see that happening.

hillary needs obama more than he needs her.

and congratulations marc: your blog post here is linked to real clear politics (again), entitled: "Obama makes three significant hedges," so thanks for spewing this out there to an even wider audience now.

Yet Another Jew,

You may have felt that way, but I speak for many Jews who didn't.

While I appreciate his civil rights comment, I found THAT as pandering.

The problem with Obama supporters is that you take everything he says the way you want it and everything Hillary says the way you don't.

Obama saying that means nothing to me...how about a real stance on Israel? Hillary has made her views on the Middle East clear. Obama hasn't (look at his Ha'Aretz rating, and talk to some Israelis about him. They say he's a disaster for him. I've spoken with many).

Yet Another Jew,

You may have felt that way, but I speak for many Jews who didn't.

While I appreciate his civil rights comment, I found THAT as pandering.

The problem with Obama supporters is that you take everything he says the way you want it and everything Hillary says the way you don't.

Obama saying that means nothing to me...how about a real stance on Israel? Hillary has made her views on the Middle East clear. Obama hasn't (look at his Ha'Aretz rating, and talk to some Israelis about him. They say he's a disaster for him. I've spoken with many).

Yet Another Jew,

You may have felt that way, but I speak for many Jews who didn't.

While I appreciate his civil rights comment, I found THAT as pandering.

The problem with Obama supporters is that you take everything he says the way you want it and everything Hillary says the way you don't.

Obama saying that means nothing to me...how about a real stance on Israel? Hillary has made her views on the Middle East clear. Obama hasn't (look at his Ha'Aretz rating, and talk to some Israelis about him. They say he's a disaster for him. I've spoken with many).

I was never making a comparison between the political styles of Dukakis and Obama. I was making a different point: primary electorates are very different from the general election electorate, so success in one is not predictive of success in the other. Also, attacks that do not work in the primaries can work very well in the general election. That was why I brought up Willie Horton.

Many people here keep drawing erroneous conclusions about how the experience argument is dead just because it hasn't worked against Obama so far. And there's no basis for thinking except your own wishes.

"Because of Hillary, millions of kids have healthcare (SCHIP)"

In fairness, SCHIP was and is the baby of my home Sen., Ted Kennedy. Mrs. Clinton played a very minor role in it, after all, she wasn't even in Congress when it passed.

One could also argue that it is, at least in part, because of Mrs. Clinton's arrogance that so few people have health care today. His disastrous attempt at health care reform was derailed by her threatening to "demonize" anyone who disagreed with any aspect of her plan, even liberal Democratic Sens. like Bill Bradley and Daniel Patrick Moynihan. That had to set the cause back years. Obama touched upon this point only very lightly.

jews, hispanics, and asians 70-80 perrcent for hillary, black 85 percent for obama, these to guys are dividers, whenmichellle obama says this country was neverr good to her , I am omsulted , well what about her getittng inot these scholls some white person must have had faith in her. Whether it be puero rican in new yorlk or mexican inlosangleles they overhemly went for hillary along with asians in both of these states along with jews, and barack got blacks and white men. so both of these guys are devisive!! Ralph nader will bring all these races and get them to come together,I hope I see a brokered deomocratic convention. Thatway People will get turned onto nader again. Ask Mike malloy hne will tell you mike malloyuof air america

we're geting a good look at the slime the right will be tossing at Obama, they've popped out of the wordwork tonight.

Get a thesaurus.

Denounce: Damn.

Reject: Deny.

They essentially mean the same thing. But denounce is actually the stronger word.

Clinton looked bullyish and petty with her answer. Obama hit it out of the park with his--and was smart enough to expose Clinton's parsing of words to be exceedingly petty.

It figures that the media would obsess on the petty. Here's another tip: real Americans could give a rats ass about this discussion. They care that their health insurance premium is now a couple hundred bucks a month; they care that they can't afford to send their kid to college; they care that they're one paycheck away from losing their house; they care that the kid they coached in Little League went to Iraq and came back with his leg blown off.

In light of this many serious issues at once, the old petty and irrelevant politics (which IS what Karl Rove mastered) looks out of touch. The fact that the media has consistently lapped up petty stories--from Hillary's tear to Barack's clothing and "plagiarism"--shows just how out of touch the national media is.

I think a beat reporter on a mid-sized publication who is making $35,000 a year probably has a pretty good finger on the pulse of America. I think beltway reporters for major publications, who make much much more, are clueless.

Adam, I will respond to your post without being nasty, even though I believe that your "hot air" comment was nasty. ( Those in glass houses ...)

I don't know where you get your info, but almost every head-to-head poll that I have seen recently has Obama doing much better against McCain than Hillary.

I will concede that Hillary has wont the "big Democratic states", (even though it wasn't in your argument), but do you really think that Obama would not carry CA, NY, and NJ in November. I would love to know why OH and FL could not be won by Obams- just because you say it doesn't make it so. And what about states like VA?

The populist, inclusive, grassroot campaign that Barack has been running is not conceding any states- he is turning the entire country into purple states (mix of blue and red).

On your point about the optimal ticket being Clinton-Obama, I guess I just don't get it. why would Obama, who has virtually won the nomination, turn it over to Hillary? Also, Hillary represents a very devisive politics (through no fault of her own there are a majority of people in this country that hate her and will never change that attitude), and for her to be on the ticket, yet alone the front name, would make it very hard for Democrats to take the WH and probably diminish chances of making gains in congress.

So, please try to step out of your Hillary support bubble and see the reality of the situation- Obama will be the Democratic nominee, and we supporters would love for you to join us. There is plenty of room on the "O-train", it's a great ride that will refresh your soul, and it makes stops for anyone willing to throw out the politics of cynicism and division. You may call this outlook "hot air" but we call it HOPE and it feels good and is good for this country and the World.

Adam, I will respond to your post without being nasty, even though I believe that your "hot air" comment was nasty. ( Those in glass houses ...)

I don't know where you get your info, but almost every head-to-head poll that I have seen recently has Obama doing much better against McCain than Hillary.

I will concede that Hillary has wont the "big Democratic states", (even though it wasn't in your argument), but do you really think that Obama would not carry CA, NY, and NJ in November. I would love to know why OH and FL could not be won by Obams- just because you say it doesn't make it so. And what about states like VA?

The populist, inclusive, grassroot campaign that Barack has been running is not conceding any states- he is turning the entire country into purple states (mix of blue and red).

On your point about the optimal ticket being Clinton-Obama, I guess I just don't get it. why would Obama, who has virtually won the nomination, turn it over to Hillary? Also, Hillary represents a very devisive politics (through no fault of her own there are a majority of people in this country that hate her and will never change that attitude), and for her to be on the ticket, yet alone the front name, would make it very hard for Democrats to take the WH and probably diminish chances of making gains in congress.

So, please try to step out of your Hillary support bubble and see the reality of the situation- Obama will be the Democratic nominee, and we supporters would love for you to join us. There is plenty of room on the "O-train", it's a great ride that will refresh your soul, and it makes stops for anyone willing to throw out the politics of cynicism and division. You may call this outlook "hot air" but we call it HOPE and it feels good and is good for this country and the World.

Enough,

Thanks for the professional response. I think you raise excellent points, but I stand by my belief that these aspects will help him with the popular vote, and not the electoral vote.

I also think comments like the one from Michelle Obama will be ripped apart by Republicans - fairly or not - whereas Hillary has pretty much withstood all attacks already.

Regardless, it's looking grim for Hillary. Her only hope is that the mail-in votes in Texas give her enough of a cushion against Obama's gains, like in CA.

We'll see. Regardless, I'm proud to be in the same party as you.

How did Clinton win on substance? Was it when kept insisting on her tired healthcare talking points, when the difference between their plans has already been acknowledged and clarified to death? Was it when she referred to SNL to prove that the media is biased against her? Was it when she greatly distorted Obama's remarks and claimed he had wanted to "bomb Pakistan"? Was it when she criticized Obama's negative mailers when her campaign tactics have been multiple times more negative? Was it when she claimed to have not been pro-NAFTA despite her dozens of statements to the contrary and despite the fact that her husband's administration - which she wants to take credit for - passed it? Was it when she passed again on saying that Obama is not qualified when she says exactly that in every one of her stump speeches? Was it when she distorted Obama's consistent stance against the Iraq war as nothing more than a single speech? Was it when she said she couldn't release her tax returns right now because she was too busy?

I mean, if you're going to say Hillary Clinton won "on substance" Mr. Ambinder, how about giving us some evidence?

Man files Federal Lawsuit against Obama regarding GAY sexual act and drug use claims ** as muslim I cannot tolerate this behavior of brack obama nor can I tlerate the behavior of bill clinton
A man named Larry Sinclair posted a video to YouTube claiming to have used cocaine and engaged in a gay sexual act with Obama when Obama was a state legislator in 1999.
In the video, Sinclair claims he and Obama met on two separate occasions, that Obama used crack cocaine and that Sinclair performed an oral sexual act on Obama both evenings.
Now Obama and company are quickly trying to quiet this man, but Sinclair has filed a federal lawsuit. Sinclair filed suit against Obama and his campaign guru David Axelrod in Minnesota district court for allegedly attempting to abridge Sinclair's right to free speech, and for waging an intimidation campaign against him.
check out the video on youtube for yourself:
[www.youtube.com]
Both MSNBC and the New York Post have verified the authenticity of the facts... will the American public have to wait until Obama gets the nomination to finally have this become public...1st on FOX News??? it will be too late for the Democratic Party... Obama needs to be fully vetted... seems like at the age of 40 someone was getting busy in the back of a limosine. Crack and gay sex... what a mess....b

Barack Hussein Obama was born in
Honolulu,As a moderate muslim and a fair one, I cannot tolerate the fact tthat obama and his wife are so anti white
Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM from
Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHIEST from Wichita,
Kansas.

Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. When Obama was two
years old, his parents divorced.

His father returned to Kenya. His mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a
RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia.

When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia.

Obama attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta.

He also spent two years in a Catholic school.

Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim.

He is quick to point out that, "He was once a Muslim, but that he also
attended Catholic school."

Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that
Obama's
introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this influence was
temporary at best.

In reality, the senior Obama returned to Kenya soon after the divorce,
and never again had any direct influence over his son's education.

Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham,
introduced his stepson to Islam.

Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school in Jakarta.

Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim
terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world.

Since it is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking Major
public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined
the
United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim
background.

Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential
candidacy.

The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside
out, what better way to start than at the highest level - through the
President of the United States, one of their own!!!!

ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office - he DID NOT use
the Holy Bible, but instead the Kuran (Their equivalency to our Bible,
but very different beliefs)

Obama also refuses to pledge allegiance the the USA flag. How can
someone who wants to be president refuse to commit to the USA.

Before you vote for any candidate I'm sure you can search the internet
and find out about all the candidates.

How much is the Clinton campaign paying you? Maybe the cost of donuts had something to do with feeding you while you copied their talking points.

"jews, hispanics, and asians 70-80 perrcent for hillary"

Nonsense. That was true in some states, but it hasn't been true across the board. In many states Obama and Clinton have been basically splitting those groups.

For instance, in Massachusetts and Connecticut Obama actually won the Jewish vote. In California he split it 50/50.

JimmyBog,

Apologies on the hot air comment. I meant that more as in - at least to me - he give stirring speeches without really saying anything. That, of course, is a matter of opinion.

I have all the praise in the world for Obama's campaign strategy. His success is truly shocking when you consider the obstacles he faced.

That being said, I don't think the wave will last. Right now, he has been the media darling. The story has been "Obama is surging...he defied the odds and beat the establishment...etc.'

The new hot story will be, "Was Obama a fad? What is his voting record? How does he plan to bring about this "change" that he keeps talking about?"

The latest poll on RCP had McCain 44, Obama 42, btw.

I want to say something specifically about Florida. I don't know much about other states, but I do know Florida. I was the VP of the UF Law School Dems for three years, and I learned a lot about the state's voting patterns.

Obama has no chance here for three reasons:

1. Senior citizens. My grandmother, who has never voted anything but Democrat her whole life, is joining the 10,000 others in her retirement community and voting for McCain/obstaining (90% of them voted for Kerry in 2004). Whether merited or not, they have taken the Obama campaign's attacks on Hillary personally.

2. The DNC: The DNC really screwed up here. There's a lot of hostility about the 1.7 million turnout not counting. Rules may be rules, but this never should have happened. Howard Dean should have been smart enough to foresee how this could happen. Instead of the anger being directed at Dean, however, it's going purely at Obama.

3. Charlie Crist: He's a very popular governor right now, and he's popular among Hillary's supporters too. She is the only one who could withstand his support of McCain.

I'm sorry to say this, but I can tell you that the only way Obama wins Florida is if something so drastic happens in the campaign that he also wins a number of other states (like a major McCain scandal).

"I was never making a comparison between the political styles of Dukakis and Obama."

Fair enough. But my point is that any attack, particularly one like Horton, can only be devastating if two things happen. #1., it has to fit within a pre-existing narrative and #2., it has to go largely unanswered, at least at first. If Dukakis had a relatively tough on crime stance or if he had responded to the Horton stuff early on, it probably wouldn't have had such an effect.

"Many people here keep drawing erroneous conclusions about how the experience argument is dead just because it hasn't worked against Obama so far."

I think Obama's argument on that count is basically.....and has been since it was just Clinton, Edwards and himself, "hey, none of us can even hope to compare to John McCain when it comes to experience, so we better run on a totally different message". His better judgment, (being against the Iraq War since day one, etc.), is that argument.

I think Sen. Clinton is a very smart and capable pol but her "35 years of experience" drives me up the freaking wall. Can't any Democrat just imagine the first debate in late September when she tries that line for the first time?

Clinton: "I have 35 years of experience"...

McCain: "Well, (looking out at the audience as he does that arm gesture), MY FREINDS, I too have 35 years of experience. Mine is a bit different than Sen. Clinton's.....she was at Yale University...I was at Hanoi University"...

(Adoring Journalists smile as the crowd goes wild.)

Really, if experience was the most important quality, the debate should have been between Sens. Biden, Dodd and Gov. Richardson.

After tonight's debate, if anyone still thinks that Hillary has a chance at the nomination then they must be asleep.

Hillary failed to deliver the media hyped and much anticpated knockout punch that would have perhaps saved her campaign.

If her campaign is honest and sincere with her, then they had better tell her the ubiquitous truth and ask her to bow out with dignity. The forthcoming primaries especially OH. & TX. will only serve to humiliate her just like the recent crowds attending President Bill Clinton's rallies.

The game is over and she will really help the party by embracing Barack prior to the next primaries.

After tonight's debate, if anyone still thinks that Hillary has a chance at the nomination then they must be asleep.

Hillary failed to deliver the media hyped and much anticpated knockout punch that would have perhaps saved her campaign.

If her campaign is honest and sincere with her, then they had better tell her the ubiquitous truth and ask her to bow out with dignity. The forthcoming primaries especially OH. & TX. will only serve to humiliate her just like the recent crowds attending President Bill Clinton's rallies.

The game is over and she will really help the party by embracing Barack prior to the next primaries.

adam, thanks. same.

michelle's comments were unfortunate. but how much mileage do you think the republicans are going to get out of them? we're in february. do you think they'll be spewing the same lines about her by the summer? especially if she doesnt make any more gaffes?

one more point: hillary HERSELF has not withstood any substantive attacks. and this, my friend, is the dirty little secret that no one wants to talk about. bill clinton withstood the attacks from congress and the media for years, but hillary didnt. bill is a very different politician than hillary; she takes credit for being battle tested, but its battle tested by association. meaning: as she was "withstanding" the republican attack machine, she herself was never up for an election. bill was, and it was on his strength that he got re-elected and beat the republicans back.

here in NY, hillary's two senate races were against nobodies, giuliani dropped out in 2000 (even still, pre-9/11 rudy was TOTALLY different than post), but notwithstanding, hillary didnt have a real republican challenge in her senate races either. trust me on this.

so i always kind of recoil when she says: "i've been tested, i've been vetted and i'm still standing." yes, she is physically still standing, but she's never had her name on the ballot when facing attacks before now. and that's something the media will never say.

and lastly, this is not to you adam, but someone above said: "Because of Hillary, millions of kids have healthcare (SCHIP)." um. while it is techically true that hillary supported SCHIP, but she did so as first lady. she didnt write the bill - she wasnt even in the senate when it was first passed - she didnt push it through congress, she advocated for it from the white house... so the claim she makes that "because of me millions of kids have heath insurance..." is completely misleading. i'm sure it makes the actual senators who wrote the bill, in fact, largely in response to the failure of universal healthcare, recoil when she makes that claim.

I completely disagree with your assessment of the debate.

In addition to just barely holding her own on substance, she consistently adopted a peremptory and obnoxious pose. This is bad not because it feeds into some sexist trope, but because it indicates the sort of negotiator and leader she will be. With her, it would certainly be "my way or the highway". She was also evasive at critical points, not just the tax return thing.

If there is a more pro-Hillary commentator than Marc Ambinder in the media, would someone please tell me where?

Enough,

I'm not disagreeing with you on the NY senate races, but I was a Columbia student at the time (just saying that I probably knew more about that than you realize...and I agree with you).

One thing I can't shake about Obama, though...and he's going to have to convince people like me to really win. The idolatry/preacher-like behavior is very difficult for me to stomach.

In Hillary's case, I know what the Clintons are all about. What bothers me is that Obama acts like he's above it all, when he's just as much the politican as she is.

Cases in point: The campaign financing switcharoo and his refusal to be seen in a photograph with a San Francisco gay leader two years ago.

I'm not at all saying Hillary would do any different, but she doesn't claim to either.

Even you have to admit...seeing people swoon and kneel for a candidate's speeches is a little unsettling.

It seems whenever a journalist supports Clinton, they are full of sh*t...how interesting that that same reaction never happens when Obama is praised "on substance."

Obama supporters are dividing the Democratic party far more than they realize.

if anyone missed the debate, we were live blogging it on needapedia. http://www.needapedia.com/news/2008/02/democratic-debate-live-blogging.html

just to clarify: "hillary HERSELF has not withstood any substantive attacks...as a candidate seeking election." bill got attacked, hillary too in the past, but it was bill's name on the ballot. hillary's never been vetted in the way she claims. and no, her campaigns in NY - one of the bluest states in the union - dont count. sorry.

good points though, Adam, about florida. its too bad that the anger is directed towards obama. he didnt do anything besides follow the rules the DNC agreed to. i wonder, should obama get the nomination, if the democrats just dont dispatch bill and hillary full time to clean up this mess in florida - which they created. it would be appropriate.

Raindog:

Well one could easily envision a similar moment in a debate between Obama and McCain, in which Obama trumphets his amazing judgment in respect to the war in Iraq, and McCain could "... Senator Obama's example about his good judgment concerned a speech he made from the Illinois state legislature in 2002 ... but perhaps Senator Obama forgot to bring his superior judgment with him when he came to Washington 3 years ago, because when it came time for a change in strategy in Iraq he opposed the surge..."

Or maybe he could say "I have to wonder where Senator Obama's great foreign policy judgment he keeps boasting about was when he threatened to bomb Pakistan, our only ally in the war on terror... maybe if he had bothered to have an oversight hearing on Afghanistan he would realize the irresponsibility of that kind of remark."

I know everyone accuses me (constantly) of being some kind of Clinton plant and dead-ender who simply reads of Clinton campaign talking points. Well I'll say something that basically puts the lie to that one:

The race is essentially over. Hillary will drop out within a week or two. Barack Obama is the presumptive nominee and should be considered such.

That's not a Clinton talking point.

That does not mean the questions about Obama are done being asked.

Enough,

Quick addendum on the Florida controversy.

I'm knowlegdeable enough to know that Obama's not the one at fault, but it doesn't make me any less bitter. All Floridians have every right to feel legitimately disenfranchised. I still can't figure out how the DNC thought this would be a good tactical decision.

You also have to admit that the Florida no-count was extremely bad luck for Hillary. Outside of New York, it's probably her second best state (given the number of transplant New Yorkers, it makes sense).

Putting Twain and Christianity in the same context should reveal to you that either yourself or that "friend" knows absolutely nothing of Mark Twain.

"presidential" = male heterosexual

"I know everyone accuses me (constantly) of being some kind of Clinton plant and dead-ender who simply reads of Clinton campaign talking points. Well I'll say something that basically puts the lie to that one"

No, that's true. Based on your last post, you have now literally moved on to reading from McCain campaign talking points against the "presumptive nominee" instead.

I watched a different debate than you guys. First off, if you think the Farrakhan stuff is silly, ask Jesse Jackson if he ever regrets using the phrase Hymietown about NYC. And Jesse Jackson Jr. comes off as all but a thug. It makes people really nervous. Don't try and bury racism, confront it. BO said some amazingly messed up things tonight. He praised Bush's stealth attack that killed #3 in Al Qaeda, yet conceded the point to NATO about the rights of sovereign nations. He wants more war in Afghanistan.And he would re-attack Iraq if need be. You anti-war Obama supporters just don't get it, do you. Hillary was great on NAFTA and health care. Obama came off real green. Hillary got my vote.

Adam, thanks for the "hot air" apology. I just checked the RCP averages on the head-to-head contests and Obama is up 3.2% and Clinton is down 1.8% to McCain. That being said, you sound like you really know your FL politics and I do not, but what I do know is that almost everywhere that Obama has campaigned he has either won, or closed the gap significantly. I do think that he would do the same in FL. I think that his Farrakhan exchange tonight might have really hit home with the Jewish vote (again, I don't know the FL mindset, and this could be total misconception on my part- it is just a hunch). Obama didn't campaign in FL and I think until that happens he shoud never be written off. On your points, #1- McCain/abstain- I find it really hard for all those senior citizens will switch from Kerry to McCain, abstain possibly (which doesn't hurt). #2- I understand the frustration of the disenfranchisement of the voters, but the distain for Obama on that is unfounded, therfore easily undone. #3- I don't really know about his, just that endorsements are fickle and really not that important. I really think that Obama could heal the Fl wounds because that is what he does. I only hope that you and likeminded Hillary fans will give him a chance to do so, because it is very highly likely that Hillary is not the nominee and we must come together as Democrats, with the help of the Independents and some Republicans. In respect to your McCain scandal comment, I believe that the NYT Lobbyist thing is not over. The NYT rarely would go out on a limb and not understand the reprecussions of that story if they didn'd have the goods on him. I don't mean to diss McCain, I am glad he beat out all the other repubs (lesser of 2 evils), but it seems to me he got away with the cookie once (Keating 5), but he didn't learn his lesson and this time his hand was deeply in the cookie jar. We will see.

Korha:

I don't see how it furthers the political discourse to imply that for me to point out the presumptive nominees short-comings is somehow treasonous. Do you know how tedious and uninteresting this forum would be if it were reduced to a bunch of clapping seals for Barack's candidacy?

who is this ambinder idiot? someone tell him it's medvedev not medvevev.

JimmyBog,

Normally I would agree with you about Obama's ability to win over voters by campaigning, but the one demographic he hasn't made much improvement on is elderly women. That's the demographic he'd have to get in Florida.

As far as Jews go, one comment in a debate isn't going to make much of a difference. The real test will be how he stands on Israel in October.

Unfortunately for Obama, Nader's candidacy puts him in a very tight spot there. Too much support for Israel and he'll lose some Arab vote to Nader; too much support for the Palestinians and he'll lose any chance in South Florida. There won't be any in between.

I think Obama made a big mistake running this time. The worst death sentence for a candidate is to lose the national election (the two exceptions being Nixon and Gore - but he won the popular vote). If Obama had waited for 2012 or 2016 (depending on Clinton winning or losing), he would have been the clear candidate for the party.

The ultimate irony is that if McCain beats Obama, you could very well be looking at Clinton in '2012 as the clear party choice. She may be the luckiest one of all.

Adam:

Do you think Obama will lose? I'm leaning towards him pulling it out in the end, but I think a lot of people here don't realize how close it may turn out to be.

From an historical perspective it's interesting to note that in modern elections that taken place after two consecutive terms for one party the challenger has almost always won, but it's always been close. Kennedy barely won in 1960... Nixon barely won in 1968... Carter barely won in 1976... and Bush barely won in 2000 (in 1988, the challenger lost).

tim k, Hillary tried those 2 attacks against Obama tonight in the debate (not in the senate, and bomb Pakistan) and they both were deflected and redirected by Obama, so he has been vetted on those. The only forum regarding Iraq that McCain can run on is success there. He is trying it now, but that is a fallacy. Violence in Baghdad is down because of all the partitioning of the city (miles of barricades separating the factions), the troop levels are still way above pre-surge, and political progress is very tenuous (probably going to fall apsrt once the partitions are taken down.) McCain also argues that the only thing Americans care about is that the loss of American lives is down. While I am extremely glad of that, I, and many other patriots, are extremely distressed that 12 BILLION dollars/month (low-ball estimate) are being spent in an ill-advised, illegal war instead of here at home for protection and economic stability.

JimmyBog:

The problem is that the 2008 campaign isn't going to be about the wisdom of invading Iraq in 2003, it's going to be about the way forward. McCain isn't going to be running as the candidate of perpetual war, that's not how he will frame it. He's going to be running as the candidate of "victory with honor" over "retreat and defeat." McCain will argue that after years of failure due to poor strategy and execution, that finally things are on the right track and that he will not allow those soldiers who died in Iraq to have given their lives in vain. That will be a compelling argument to many voters, and cannot be countered simply by pointing out the incompetence of the initial strategic blunder. McCain will say that it would be an even greater strategic blunder to, having gone in, to pull out precipitously and allow Al Qaeda to claim victory. Nothing I've heard from Obama, his campaign, or posters here tells me how he will argue against that message.

Tim K,

Yes, I think Obama is going to lose. I even think Hillary still has a chance in the primary, but she has to win both Texas and Ohio (looking dubious right now in TX, but you can't discount those mail-in votes).

Just imagine this picture: Hillary takes TX and OH, then PA on April 22nd. She will then have claim to NY, CA, TX, FL, and PA, the five biggest states. Even if she trails by 100 pledged delegates, her soaring momentum should give her the edge in superdelegates.

But assuming things stay true to course and Obama takes the primary, I don't see how he's going to win. Just wait for the Republican surrogates to start airing commercials about Obama being unpatriotic, being a Muslim, being the most liberal senator. Just like the swift boats, McCain will condemn all of them, while they do their work.

Obama would have to win Ohio, and his position is not secure in Pennsylvania. Also, I hate to say this, but don't discount the Bradley effect. Racism may not be as prevalent during primary season, but just wait for Election Day. Every racist a**hole will make sure to show up at the polls and cast a vote for McCain.

My overall prediction:

Popular vote:
McCain +2
Electoral: McCain +25 or so

Hey Adam - Please don't reduce the Jewish vote to some policy specific Israel litmus test. Aside from a small (though loud) number of American Likudniks that's just not how the Jewish vote operates. It's a whole lot more complicated than that, and the Jewish vote is anything but monolithic.

Tim K, your argument is all based on if Iraq is percieved as successful come November. This hopemonger is not hopeful about that. McCain is already running as the perpetual war candidate, and will have to flip-flop to leave Iraq without anything but complete victory. Your point about the way forward rather than 2003 is well taken, but he has boxed himself into a corner with his 100 to 1ooo years comments, and even though he quickly retracted it, his recent comment about him losing if we lose Iraq will define his campaign and the American people are way too war weary to allow for much more.

Reading talking points /= furthering the political discourse

Of course Tim K knows that Obama has made a number of cogent arguments against the surge, including in the last debate. Tim K also knows that all Obama claimed was that he would go after high-value terrorist targets in Pakistan if he had actionable intelligence and Pakistan would not act, including in this debate. But he is apparently not interested in intellectual honesty.

Asdf,

The Jewish vote does operate like that in Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade. The issue will be debated about during Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur services all throughout, with major questions being posed.

That may not be the case among the young Jewish community, but South Florida is old Jewish. Fear of anti-semitism is associated with anti-zionism, and the slightest bit of that compels these elderly Jews to vote on those grounds.

In fact, when I was actively campaigning for Kerryl, I encountered tremendous resistance among Jews in my area. A lot of people think that was what turned the vote in FL in 04 (in that year, Bush got the highest % of Jewish vote for a Republican in decades).

Adam, Hillary winning is becoming more and more an exercise in delusion. The last I heard about the mail-in votes is that 2/3 are going for Obama (sorry I don't ahve a reference for that, but I believe it was reliable source). Even if she does squeak out TX and OH and landslides PA she will not have even close the secured delegates, and the supers will NOT overthrow the will of the people. That would be death to the Democratic party. The bubble has burst for Hillary, I wish her well.

Adam - FYI: Not all of us Jews in the USA live in "Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade".

Anyway, I know some of those folks (I'm related to them!) and I think you exaggerate. It's not monolithic even in places like Florida (and for that matter, New York).

I think you don't understand Russian politics too much if you are saying Obama is taking a risk predicting that Medvedev will become Russia's next President. If Putin chooses you to be President, you are President, no questions asked. Putin has much more influence and power than many dictators who don't even hold elections, because there are no elites which dare challenge his will in Russia. By predicting Medvedev to win, Obama has shown that he understands the basics of Russian Politics.

Asdf,

No...not all Jews live in Palm Beach, Broward, or Dade, but nearly all of the Jews in Florida do, and those are the only ones who will swing this election.

It amazes me that after 2000 and 2004, the Democrats still don't grasp the value of the Sunshine State. A Democratic win there would have ensured 2000, 2004, and will in 2008. It's too bad Dean and the DNC didn't think of that.

Adam, the Bradley Effect is not about racist a**holes, it is about those that claim to support minority candidates outside the polling booth, and then don't vote for them inside the booth. Obama to date ahs actually sohhown the reverse of that. If you look at the final polling numbers of the concluded states, Barack almost always gets a higher percentage of final results than the final polling numbers. That being said, that is in the primary and it is my opinion that the Democrats probably have a lot fewer racist a**holes than Republicans. That could be a biased Democrat opinion, but I think it is true.

Korha:

Of course Obama has made arguments against the surge but he hasn't had to defend his promise to pull the troops out within a year. Hillary can't challenge him on it because she's running in a Democratic primary and her position on Iraq is a weakness. On Pakistan Obama's pronouncements were simply unwise. They are just not the kinds of comments one makes when one is running for president.

JimmyBog:

I'm not saying I think McCain's argument will work necessarily, but I think it will be a challenge to Obama's position.

I think the main thrust of the McCain campaigns critique against Obama will be two-fold.

First, I think they will attack him on the experience front in a very different way than Clinton has. Not simply by asserting that he has the experience and Obama does not, but by pointing to specific instances where Obama has made what they will call unwise or unsound statements on national security. And I don't think they will use the word 'inexperience', since 'experience' is a pretty abstract concept. I think they'll use words like 'naive', 'uncertain', 'confused' to paint him as weak.

Second, I think they will do something else Clinton hasn't been in a position to do, and that is to paint him as liberal and out of the mainstream. I think they'll do that using specific instances of past votes or positions he took either in the Senate or in the Illinois state legislature.

Adam - It's not going to come down to Florida. In fact, I suspect Florida goes for McCain (with or without Crist as VP).

Obama will wage his battle in Colorado, Virginia, Indiana, Iowa, Nevada, New Mexico, Ohio and Missouri -- all states Kerry lost. He might even try to pick off a deep southern state or two if the conservatives remain unhappy with McCain. In other words, it's not going to be 2004 all over again.

Florida would be a bonus for Obama, but it's hardly essential.

Anyone who thinks the superdelegates won't make the difference if Clinton takes OH, TX, and PA is kidding him/herself.

The whole point of the superdelegate was to prevent Mondale-type situations. If Hillary is to win those three states, by then she'll also be leading the national party vote. The superdelegates will make sure to pick whomever is in better position.

Also, as a general principle, why even have superdelegates if they just regurgitate the national vote. They were spsecifically put in place to make sure the party is represented best.

Let me give you an absurd hypothetical (but one that proves my point):

Let's say Obama even takes OH and TX. Hillary stays in, and then on May 30th, it comes out that Obama did something really crooked (this is purely hypothetical). The scandal causes him to dive, and now he trails McCain by 20 points. He has no chance to win.

Should the superdelegates then still vote for him, when Hillary is clearly ahead?

Even if Obama convinced me to vote for him and I became his staunchest supporter, I would never suggest that the superdelegates not think for themselves. They're in place for a very good reason.

JimmyBog is right. There has been no evidence of a Bradley Effect in the Democratic primaries. If anything there was a "Reverse" Bradley Effect in some primaries and caucuses - meaning the polls have tended to underestimate the actual pro-Obama vote.

Asdf,

Of the states you mentioned (Colorado, Virginia, Indiana, Iowa, Nevada, New Mexico, Ohio and Missouri), I guarantee you he won't win CO, VA, IN, or NV. NM and IA are part of the Gore coalition, which lost without Florida.

Obama may have had a chance in those states against a Romney type, but not against McCain. McCain is a moderate Republican from AZ! He'll win those with ease, and VA only votes for centrist democrats (and white ones at that).

Ohio is his only chance...that's assuming he manages to keep PA and a bunch of other swing states. And don't bet on NM, with McCain being right next door.

I used the Bradley Effect incorrectly, but I meant the general principle of racism.

The Democratic primaries do not reflect the general election whatsoever. Don't be fooled (and NH may have actually had the Bradley effect).

Where Hillary blew it on the Farrakhan issue was by not focusing on Obama's relationship with Gates. Say Hillary's pastor and mentor had called a Grand Wizard of the KKK a "great man," and had accompanied him to South Africa while apartheid was still the rule of law. This is an exact parallel to Gates' trip with Lewis to Libya. Hillary would be skewered, and rightly so. And she would be required to vehemently distance herself from her pastor, let alone the KKK man. But Obama has gotten a pass, calling the Gates-related magazine's declaration of Farrakhan as "man of the year" an "error in judgment."
An error in judgment? Farrakhan is a raving anti-Semite who also hates all whites. A man running for President should vehemently censure any friend or mentor who supports him. But Obama has not done so, and Hillary blew her chance to call him on it, as did the stumbling, bumbling Russert.
Does it take a self-aware Jew to recognize the Hillary/Klan-lover Obama/Gates parallel, and is it clear why a Jew like myself could never support Obama, notwhstanding his many talents and charms, for President? The friend and protege of my enemy is my enemy. The fact that Jews from David Axelrod on down don't care about says more about their state of denial than it is an explanation of Obama's feckless decision to avoid condemning Gates.

On the topic of the Jewish vote and Obama's stance on Israel, this would seem to be relevant article from today's Jersualem Post: 'Obama is a strong friend of Israel'.

Aengil et al,

That article is written by Robert Wexler. I'm a big fan of Wexler's, but he's clearly spouting a recycled list of statements to gain support in the Obama-centric party.

There are other people who attended the same Jewish forum who had a decidedly different take.

Regardless, there's no point in debating this now. The true beliefs will all come out in the general election.

Ok, I'm off for a while. It was a pleasure debating with all of you.

I can just imagine HRC's post-debate debrief with her staff: "You idiots! Get me something on this guy! Anything! Here I am, a great candidate, being undermined by you morons! Now get out of my sight!"
(Expletives deleted)

What do you bet she comes out with something negative, false and complicated-to-refute about him from his distant background, oh, say, Friday or Saturday before the TX/OH primaries?

There's little doubt Obama is going to be the Democratic nominee. There is also as little doubt that his success in the primaries has been due more to Hillary's amazing weaknesses as a candidate than to his abilities. Obama's supporters deceive themselves if they interpret his performance to date as certifying his invincibility. It's quite easy to get empty-headed liberal groupies to faint at rallies. That's not a qualification for the most important of jobs.

Moreover, now that the nomination is just about his, Obama runs up against a stark and unalterable fact: Most of the electorate is well to the right of Obama and Democratic primary voters. Obama can only win in November if he convinces Americans to vote against their innate political convictions. Could it happen? Yes. Will it? Unlikely.

If and when McCain accurately portrays Obama for what he is (an unadulterated left-winger), Obama's balloon will begin to lose air. He has yet to be confronted on his strident liberalism. Hillary could not do that, not in a Democratic primary campaign. Hillary was ideologically handcuffed and beyond lame in her organizing. She truly expected a coronation and when it didn't happen, she simply acted and looked like someone who did not have a clue what to do.

The general election is a vastly different proposition. It will be a contest of contrasting ideas, not a petty squabble between Mr Far Left and Mrs Not So Far Left over which plan to socialize medicine is superior. When such contrasts are skillfully drawn, the American electorate trend heavily toward conservative ideas. Drawing those contrasts skillfully is, of course, McCain's principal task. As one of the most liberal senators, Obama gives McCain plenty of material. Obama will try to rise above it with his torrential platitudes and hope-talk, but at the end of the day, in a time of war, the American people won't give the Oval Office to a far-left politician whose public career is so thin and unremarkable as Obama's.

On top of that, even if she loses next week, Hillary will want another bite at the apple in 2012. I suspect their Plan C is to do what they can to set up a do-over four years from now. From the Clinton's point of view, therefore, an Obama loss in November would be better than an Obama victory. The Clintons regard the Democratic Party as their personal property. It may well be slipping away from them, but that does not mean they will not fight for it until the fight is over. And, whatever happens on March 4, that fight will not be over for a long time to come.

well it seeems like the media is starting to say tha tiraq is getting netter mike ohanlon says so but I do not believe it ,yes the casualties are down but its still a disaster, Ralph nader will bring home troops with honor unlike billiary and hussein obama.A christian lebanesseee can talk to both jews and palestians into making peace ralph nader all the way

We need healthcare for the needy and Obama will bring affordable healthcare to those that can't afford it. Hillary's plan would too but the republicans would kill hers.

Obama campaign now has 1,000,102 individual donors. Astonishing.

As usual Obama fumbled making points, Again when he is in a debate next to any other person, he fails, why? because he can only recite a pre-written speech, he is not good with unexpected questions thrown at him. Clinton clearly won the debate as she has all of them. Obama is media made. nothing more...

Top Obama Flip-Flops

1. Special interests In January, the Obama campaign described union contributions to the campaigns of Clinton and John Edwards as "special interest" money. Obama changed his tune as he began gathering his own union endorsements. He now refers respectfully to unions as the representatives of "working people" and says he is "thrilled" by their support
2. Public financing Obama replied "yes" in September 2007 when asked if he would agree to public financing of the presidential election if his GOP opponent did the same. Obama has now attached several conditions to such an agreement, including regulating spending by outside groups. His spokesman says the candidate never committed himself on the matter.
3. The Cuba embargo In January 2004, Obama said it was time "to end the embargo with Cuba" because it had "utterly failed in the effort to overthrow Castro." Speaking to a Cuban American audience in Miami in August 2007, he said he would not "take off the embargo" as president because it is "an important inducement for change."
4. Illegal immigration In a March 2004 questionnaire, Obama was asked if the government should "crack down on businesses that hire illegal immigrants." He replied "Oppose." In a Jan. 31, 2008, televised debate, he said that "we do have to crack down on those employers that are taking advantage of the situation."
5. Decriminalization of marijuana While running for the U.S. Senate in January 2004, Obama told Illinois college students that he supported eliminating criminal penalties for marijuana use. In the Oct. 30, 2007, presidential debate, he joined other Democratic candidates in opposing the decriminalization of marijuana.

"Farrakhan is Obama's running mate, as Willie Horton was Dukakis' one.

Tonight he lost the general election."


Marc, I pray to God that you are correct. His moment with Farrakhan was scary. Even scarier is imagining him sitting down with the new Russian premier. Or negotiating with terrorists without preconditions.

He's the scariest candidate we've ever seriously entertained. He has to be stopped by McCain.

Adam: I think you are correct that Obama won't win IN, CO, or VA.

NV, NM, and IA are much closer calls. I'd say NV is likely to go for McCain. It's a good state for a center-right candidate. NM and IA are much less certain. Nonetheless, using 2004's red states as a base, McCain still wins with 274 electoral votes.

FL is trending back to the GOP. Bush clobbered Kerry there in 2004, and I think the margin for McCain will be even bigger.

Ohio is the real battleground this year. The GOP has some problems there. If the GOP loses this year, Ohio will be the reason. Still, McCain is very well-suited to connect with conservative Democrats in places like OH, PA, MI, NH, and WI. White, male, blue-collar workers will gravitate toward McCain, not Obama. The reason won't be racial. Obama is simply a liberal and that will cost him in the rural and suburban Midwest. Obama will get huge votes in urban areas, only to see it overcome by exurban and suburban voters who just won't buy his left-wing plans once the GOP has exposed them.

Obama's partisans make a big deal out of the fact he's won 11 million votes in the primaries. That may sound impressive until you realize that it will probably take 65 million votes to win the general election.

McCain, for whatever his faults, is someone big swaths of the American electorate know and trust. And whatever one thinks of the war in Iraq, McCain's steadfastness on pushing toward victory, even when it was wildly unpopular, has been pretty much won him the votes of those Americans (many of whom are conservative Democrats in places like Ohio) who value conviction and courage as indispensable elements of the person they want in the White House. One can level criticisms at McCain, but no one can say the man does not have guts.

That is a HUGE character asset next to someone as amorphous and oleaginous as Obama. In 1952 and 1956, Adlai Stevenson made lots of people swoon with his speeches, but Eisenhower won two landslides over him. Kerry was about five times as articulate as Bush in 2004, but the voters made the judgment that Bush may not be able to speak like Pericles, but he'll defend the country like Patton.

McCain has the national security vote locked up. And in wartime that's usually the ballgame.

Jan Koivisto,

Methinks the scariest candidate is now occupying the White House. McCain will be a continuance of that.

As for being a leftwinger, he is not. Go read that Noam Schieber article in the New Republic:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=4d40a39e-8f57-4054-bd99-94bc9d19be1a

The Economist, has a more balanced objective and eloquent assment of last night debate in Ohio between Hillary and Obama.


http://www.economist.com/daily/news/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10755017&top_story=1

Every time I hear the crowds cheering Obama, I think of Professor Hill in The Music Man or of Elmer Gantry. I am also reminded of how my husband and I supported Carter in 1976 because we thought he would bring about many reforms and changes. After double digit inflation and the failure to respond forcefully to the Iranian hostage crisis, we were very disillusioned and did not vote for him in 1980.

Now, when I see Obama on television, I hear "76 Trombones" playing in the background.

ARLINGTON, VA — U.S. Senator John McCain’s presidential campaign today released the following statement by Communications Director Jill Hazelbaker on Howard Dean and the Democratic National Committee leadership’s personal attacks on John McCain:

“Today, a speaker at our event made a highly inappropriate statement about Senator Obama. In response, Senator McCain immediately denounced the remarks and apologized to Senator Obama.

“In contrast, Howard Dean and the Democratic National Committee leadership have launched a personal and negative assault on Senator McCain’s character. Howard Dean himself questioned Senator McCain’s integrity, and a DNC official called McCain a liar.

“We agree with the Obama campaign’s statement today that this debate should be ‘respectful and focused on issues,’ and it would be encouraging to see Senator Obama denounce the character attacks coming from the leadership of his Party.”

"I really think that Obama could heal the Fl wounds because that is what he does."

What is he running for? Jesus?

This guy and his supporters are just...creepy.

Cheryl Morris

I admire your psychic powers. It is amazing how people make this assumption that this guy is going to be another Jimmy Carter without giving any factual support for their contention. Now I admit that with HRC, I know where she stands and her husband was a very good president but that doesn't lead me to believe that Obama will be another Jimmy Carter.

Mary Anderson,

Shut up. He is the One and, accordingly to His wife, He will fix our souls. Like it or not. Praise the Messiah and shut up.

Hillary's attempt to use the Farrakhan endorsement to score a political point is a good example of why people are flocking to Obama. She had an opportunity to take the high road and didn't.

"It is amazing how people make this assumption that this guy is going to be another Jimmy Carter without giving any factual support for their contention."

See "record, absence of it" and "speeches, feel-good".

On the other hand, it's even more difficult to give any factual support for the contention that Obama will be a good president. Once again see record, absence of it.

Is the press determined to let Obama get all the way to the White House without ever challenging him to tell us specifically what he plans to do when he gets there? When will the unreasoning media crush on Obama end? At what point can we say "our long national orgasm is over"?

Both Democratic presidential candidates, who promise to curb the influence of corporate lobbyists in Washington, helped enact narrowly tailored tax breaks sought by major campaign contributors.

Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign has accepted $54,350 from members of a law firm that in 2006 lobbied him to introduce a tax provision for a Japanese drug company with operations in Illinois, according to public records and interviews. The government estimates the provision, which became law in December 2006, will cost the treasury $800,000.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-02-25-tax-breaks_N.htm?POE=click-refer

Geez... suddenly all the talk about bringing a new kind of politics to Washington seems... hypocrite.

Cheryl Morris:

Given your stated time line above, as an old bag, of course you support Hillary Clinton. Isn't you and all of your fellow crones who have kept her campaign afloat? Obviously I've left out the trailer park crowd as well as the border jumpers, but you seem to be her most steadfast constituency.

Take one of those 76 Trombones and stick it up your ass.

Here's the rub:
asked if Obama rejects the minister's endorsement and support Obama totally dodges quewstion and says he has in the past rejected/denounced his views of jews and isreal.
Asked again he totally dodges again, sayingf a second time that the campaign has no formal thing with the minister or his followers.
Hillary ways in saying she has rejected endorsements from haters in the past and Obama tries to belittle the difference but concedes bu still avoids saying I reject louis' support.
skivvy and slimy. yeech.

This is now somewhat a moot issue, but the "Clinton is better positioned to win Florida" electability argument has always had a glaring flaw. Specifically, Kerry barely won a host of states, including Michigan, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. Unfortunately, running againt McCain, Clinton is much more likely to lose those states than Obama, and therefore to lose the election even if she wins Florida. And by the way, I am highly skeptical of the suggestion that Clinton could actually beat McCain in Florida. She might do better than Obama in Florida, but that is consistent with her still losing Florida.

Incidentally, there is very little doubt in my mind that Obama is in a great position to win Iowa. Even before he won the caucus there, the polls showed him crushing McCain in head-to-heads, and of course he won his Iowa caucus (facing a very tough competitor in Edwards) and McCain did not. And I think what a lot of people do not yet fully realize is that Obama is a fantastic candidate for the Midwest--which is not surprising, because he learned politics in Illinois, where he has been wildly successful. Specifically, Obama understands how Midwesterners think about politics, he understands how to talk to Midwesterners about politics, he understands their political issues, and he understands what a winning city-suburb-rural coalition looks like in these states. Neither Clinton nor McCain get all this like Obama does, as in fact their respective underperformances in the Iowa caucuses showed.

So, I fully expect Obama to not only easily hold onto Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota, but also to grab Iowa. I also think he has a great shot at Indiana, Missouri, and Ohio, and maybe even the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas. That solidified Midwestern base plus the West Coast and Northeast states will be enough for his clear electoral victory. But he will also run strong in the Southeast, Southwest, and Mountain states. And regardless of whether he wins those states (and he won't need to), he will help downticket Democrats.

I am continually amazed at why democrats support candidate Obama for president. He waits for the real experienced candidate to state the position and then says, yes I agree with everything she says. He goes on and on and basiscally says nothing substantial. The democrats will select the 'most electible' candidate and then will wonder why they lose. McCain is a formidable candidate and Hillary is the one who can beat him in the GE. These head to head polls out now are media driven. Just my humble opinion.

Michael c. Firstly you're just plain wrong, Obama did say "I would reject and denounce". But secondly and more importantly, you obviously don't understand the point, which is that you can't reject an endorsement. It's not something concrete you're given the option of accepting or not. For example, if I say, "I support the New York Giants" the Giants can't reject that, they can't say "No you don't". They can't stop me supporting them.

What you can do is refuse to have anything to do with the endorser - "we're not doing anything ... formally or informally with Minister Farrakhan." - and you can even openly condemn them - "I have been very clear in my denunciations of him and his past statements" - but rejecting something you can't actually reject?

It's a shame you think responding to something intelligently and accurately is 'skivvy and slimy'. but I'm afraid the problem there is on your end.

I do think some people are missing the point on the denounce/reject "debate." Senator Clinton's point was not about the need to reject Farrakhan's beliefs. That's understood, or should be. She was making the case that Farrakhan's support, and by extension the support of his followers, should be rejected. In other words, you denounce what Farrakhan says AND you reject his support or anyone like him. Senator Clinton's mention of her rejection of support from bigots in her 2000 Senate race makes her point. By rejecting their support, she risked losing their votes. Did that rejection risk her 2000 election chances? Probably not. But her point is make the case that you do not want people like that in your Big Tent. Trying to bring everyone together to change America should have its limits. We shouldn't really want help from just anyone!

The good senator only denounced Farrakhan when pressed on the issue, no thanks to the media. Senator Obama touts the same unification/bi-partisanship that G-dub did in his run to the whitehouse. Are you not kidding yourselves when you actually believe that someone with a heavy liberal agenda can bring Republicans over to the light of being? In an interview in 2004, Senator Obama simply stated that "he did not know how he would have voted on the Iraq War Resolution given the information that Senator Kerry and Edwards were provided", since he has been in the US Senate he has continued to vote to fund the war... yet he is running on being unequivocably against the war! My main problem is that Senator Clinton has carried the popular vote in Democratic states where ONLY democrats are allowed to vote. Obama believes that the delegate battle is where it is won (without Florida/Michigan of course)... of course, without the superdelegates actually voting the way they were designed to vote. He is an embarrassment to our party, he is the left-wing liberal that is attempting to derail our party. I will not vote for him on principle... I will not vote for McCain on principle and I will vote for Nader if Hillary does not get the nod. Wake up people before it is too late to save our party!

Joe,

We have hashed this out in great detail now. To sum up, the problem with your analysis is that Farrakhan hasn't offered any support to Obama, so it is a bit odd of you and Clinton to insist that Obama reject something that hasn't been offered. And for what it is worth, Obama made it clear he would reject such an offer if it came.

Generally, I don't think the American people are really interested in these games. And that is quite sensible of them: it only helps people like Farrakhan to make them into an important issue in a Presidential election. Obama's approach properly suggests that Farrakhan is a marginal crank not worthy of participation in the national discourse, and that is where the American people would prefer to leave Farrakhan--outside of our national political discussions.

Incidentally, here is an even simpler summary of the wisdom of Obama's approach, appropriate for an Internet audience:

Don't feed the trolls.

The pundit class seems intent on keeping Hillary around because it's good sport. Quite simply, to almost anyone who wasn't Chris Matthews crazy, Obama looked in control, deftly parried her mostly tired barbs and even managed to finally get out his answer to a few misleading soundbytes Clinton got free reign with from the weekend.

I think her body language *is* important, as she clearly felt like she had her best stuff, and it just didn't stick.

If mad Hillary can't get under Obama's skin, how intemperate will REALLY mad McCain get?

Is it me or isn't Obama a complete passive patsy? He doesn't strike me as a decisive personality who can command our nation.

He is definitely charismatic and somewhat likable. But he is too agreeable. This won't work against the Republicans.

Farrakhan is the tip of the iceberg. Rezko has ties to Middle Eastern banks. And Obama is friends with David Ayers from the Weather Underground.

People do not know these things yet because of the media. When people find these things out, Obama will be in real trouble.

No one sees it yet, but McCain may win in a landslide.

Obama got away with answering only half of Tim Roussert's question about Farrakhan's endorsement. The other part of the question was about Dr. Jeremiah Wright's, Obama's pastor whose sermon inspired the tittle of his book, Audacity of Hope. Roussert quoted Wright as saying that Wright had traveled to Libya with Farrakhan and that Wright told Obama that Obama's Jewish supporters would drop Obama like a hot potatoe when they knew the relationship between Obama and Wright. Obama was very careful not to denounce or reject Wright or Wright's support of Farrakhan, because Wright is very popular within the black community and that would have hurt Obama with black voters. Recjecting and denouncing Wright would have hurt Obama far more than rejecting Farrakhan and neither Roussert nor Hillary pressed Obama on that part of Roussert's question. As an African-American, it is so strange to me that Obama spends so much time distancing himself from aspects of who he is (his own middle name, parts of his culture, etc.) or worrying about how he will be perceived by non-whites and, takes it for granted that blacks will vote for him, just because he is black, so, with the black vote in the bag, he is free to present himself to other voters as whatever is most acceptable to them. I wonder what African-Americans can really expect from him, if he is elected. I wonder, too, if when he is sworn in, will he object to the use of his full name during the swearing in ceremony. He seems to have his own personal identity issues and internal conflicts.

I would have to disagree that this issue is hashed out. Part of the point of rejecting Farrakhan and his supporters is the need for Senator Obama to reject and/or denounce Jeremiah Wright. Calling Farrakhan an epitome of greatness has to seriously call into question the judgemnt of Mr. Wright. How does Senator Obama reject or denounce Wright? In the end, this particular issue seems overblown. But for me, the issue raises questions about Senator Obama's really being a new way in American politics. His initial nuiansced answers to the question about Farrakhan's comments makes me wonder. Why not jump right in and say yes you reject Farrakhan and everything he stands for and those who follow him. Take a look at the transcript. Tim Russert knows when he hears an equivocation. Even for a clear supporter like Russert, Senator Obama was not able to close out this issue on the first answer. Russert asked again. In the end, Senator Obama gave a politician's answer. A politically careful answer that doesn't answer the question. How does "Well, Tim, you know, I can’t say to somebody that he can’t say that he thinks I’m a good guy" answer the question "Do you reject his support?" It doesn't. It's a little like "What the definition of is is." And that's what worries me about Senator Obama. He plays a good game of not another Washington insider. His supporters believe he is not. But he is. Where has he taken the great stands in the Senate? What has he done while in office to lead (not co sponsor, but lead) on important issues that he now campaigns on? Where is his Senate leadership on leaving Iraq today? Where is his Senate leadership to revoke NAFTA? Where is his Senate leadership on not goign to war with Iran? He's a Freshman Senator who defers to the party elders like Senator Sarbanes(http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/clinton-obama_slugfest.html). Standing up for these issues in the Senate would galvanize opposition to him in a way he cannot afford. So is it about Farrakhan? Not really. Is about Senator Clinton? Not really. It's about Senator Obama's political maneuvering. Pretty old school.

Obama had the audience laughing as to the "reject" and "denounce" distinction. It merely underscored how hard HRC was reaching for something--anything--to take him down. He parried all the attacks effortlessly. He seemed serence, yet was forceful. All over.

"Weird language" on Farrakhan? What debate were you watching? Obama was clear and concise in his denunciation. Furthermore, why does he have to repudiate a guy he's got no actual connection to just for making a kind remark? Farrakhan is in no way involved in Obama's campaign and clearly has no role to play.

If you want parse "weird language," how about examining Hillary's non-answer with respect to her releasing her tax returns. Talk about tortured!

Substance: Obama. Style: Obama.

Hillary's wonkishness should not be mistaken for actual substance. Sure, I give her high marks for being able to rattle off statistics and data points in a debate, but it's what she does with that information that's in question. She may know plenty about Iraq, but she voted in favor of the war, in spite of the questionable intelligence.

We tried a wonk for president: Jimmy Carter. Do we dare repeat that mistake?

MED

VED

EV

MEDVEDEV

MEDVEDEV

MEDVEDEV

Wow. The difference in media coverage has been so stark and obvious. She "pesters" while he "challenges", when she is up by 200 delegates it is a "near tie and virtual dead heat", when he is up 60, it is a "blowout" and "it's over". When she gives a foreign policy speech surrounded by several strong, respected military leaders (with, gasp, experience - that awful “e” word – she has 27 of them endorsing her, BTW) with full media in attendance, not one of the media “journalists” shows it live. You can’t find clips of it anywhere. Had Obama done the same he would have been hailed “our commander in chief” and that headline would have been splashed on every news outlet available. Ok, let's get real. The reason Hillary was annoyed that she seems to be asked most of the questions first in the debates, is she has clearly articulated her plan and position on every issue and that "who first" format allows Obama to play follow the leader. She outlines her plan, he says "I agree with Hillary" and then is allowed to blather on and on so he gets more air time. Kind of like watching that kid in class keep looking over your shoulder during a test, after you've done all the hard work. He clearly states midway thru the debate that he would "reserve the right" to go back into Iraq (or anywhere) if there was reason to believe it posed a threat to the US. Well, duh?! That's why Hillary voted with John Kerry, Colin Powell, and many Democrats to look further into Iraq under Bush's regime. Also, why has no one mentioned the fact that Obama has voted "present' over 120 times while a senator, when he could have been a leader and taken a stand. We need a leader, not a follower. We need a leader when it is inconvenient, not just when it looks good.

Obama is closely affiliated with leaders who openly revere Farrakhan. Farrakhan himself has been an influential leader. He is also a vile bigot. I was disappointed to watch Obama stutter and stammer and become visibly uncomfortable when questioned about Farrakhan’s support for his candidacy. Additionally, Obama did not satisfactorily explain his continuing affiliation with a church which has showered this character with awards and praise. When pressed by the moderator to offer a categorical rejection of Farrakhan, Obama again hemmed and hawed and snippily declared it was not his place to declare such a condemnation. Clinton’s interjection was completely correct and timely. A declaration regarding his position on an avowed racist needs to come definitively and without hesitation. Obama tried to twist her point into a matter of simple semantics, but the actual point is Obama’s consistent absence of the sort of decisive statements which mark a true leader.

Wow, there sure are a lot of Obama kool-aid sippers out there.

The debate was probably a draw, both scored points - Obama, as usual was much more cool, composed and better spoken, but Hill did score a bit - she clearly has a better command of the issues and she/Russert got Barak to equivocate on campaign finance and to look somewhat helpless on foreign policy.

No doubt Barack can bone-up before the general election, but he is a bit out of his depth on foreign policy today.

Anyone who doesn't think so is may be a true-beleiver - but not a realist

I agree with Eh's comment that hillary seemed extremely evasive on the tax return question. Not so much in her choice of words as in her body language. Her eyes were shifty and she was looking down a lot. In contrast, on many of the other questions, especially when she was attacking Obama she was looking straight at the camera or Obama.

This has been the most telling blog I have read to date about the state of the campaign. Knit picking and arguing over the difference of whether Obama should have said reject instead of denounce and so on and so forth. It is so apparent that if you are a Clinton supporter you have a problem with how he answered, and if you are an Obama supporter you are fine with what he said. This happened within my old household. My wife (Hillary supporter) had a big grin on her face when Clinton was complaining about the 1st question and using SNL as a way to make Obama look bad. My face was contorted into some obsene expression and I am saying out loud, "give me a break". The fact is, that we aren't going to change our minds unless something very drastic happens. I am resolved to wait and see what happens. What I thought was the most amusing about last night's debate is that it just seemed like Clinton is trying to argue over the same issues and innefectively, at that. The debate did not help her, she complained about the first question YET she is the one who wanted the debate in the first place. She even went as far to scream, "Meet me in Ohio!" as she was pretending to be suddenly angry with him about his flyers. But this debate gave her NO advantage. I can't predict what will happen next Tuesday, but I surely cannot wait for the results.

Jeff,

Can you be more specific on how Obama is not in his depth on foreign policy? Because it sure is easy enough to say that, but a lot more difficult to back up with fact.

Of course that is not an original statement. But neither is using kool-aid to describe why someone would support something. I wish I had a quarter for every time somebody wrote off legitimate support as drinking kool-aid.

OH YEAH!!!!!!

Umm, you might need a new fact checker and fire you old. As for calling Louis Farrahkahn 'minister' your candidate (implied if not stated) has referred to Louie as minister on more than one occasion; as well as Billy Boy.

Oh and as for Hillary knowing Medevevevevev's last name, many know his name starts with an 'M' and I suppose I could have enunciated the M and fumbled the rest of that way. The question is whether she actually knew it and that play is not reviewable since we are under two minutes left to play.

Obama didn't look real knowledgeable about the name either, grant it. He did look presidential and when she tried the political do-si-do he stepped up and smacked her hand, which she rightfully accepted. Bad Hillary!

Of course, today we all dislike Tim Russert for his poorly assked question and ridiculous hypotheticals he gave each of them. What a loser, CNN should put him behind the camera since he has just proved he is not a worthy journalist or commentator.

At the end of the day, Hillary screwed up by taking the nomination for granted and displaying her sense of entitlement. in the end, this is what doomed her; not being married to Billy Boy, being a woman, or just being really cold. Nope, it is just the idea that the American people were her b@$**es and she wanted her dues. Sorry Hil, I hear Albany calling...

In regards to Hillary releasing her tax statements - I am an Obama supporter and could care less if she actually releases them. I just wonder why it is so difficult to make happen. Is it not just copying of pages? Can somebody explain that?

"Well one could easily envision a similar moment in a debate between Obama and McCain, in which Obama trumphets his amazing judgment in respect to the war in Iraq, and McCain could "... Senator Obama's example about his good judgment concerned a speech he made from the Illinois state legislature in 2002 ... but perhaps Senator Obama forgot to bring his superior judgment with him when he came to Washington 3 years ago, because when it came time for a change in strategy in Iraq he opposed the surge...""

Considering how "The Surge" has been a dramatic failure so far, that would probably work out well for Sen. Obama. Either way though, Sen. Clinton wouldn't do much better there.


"Or maybe he could say "I have to wonder where Senator Obama's great foreign policy judgment he keeps boasting about was when he threatened to bomb Pakistan, our only ally in the war on terror... maybe if he had bothered to have an oversight hearing on Afghanistan he would realize the irresponsibility of that kind of remark.""

Our "only ally"??? Geez. What about Poland?

Again, that would work out well for Sen. Obama. Was it not just a week or two ago that the US under George W. Bush, (McCain's BFF), did just that? Using an armed "Predator" drone, the US killed A.Q.'s latest #3 man. Pakistan's government new nothing about it. Unless one thinks McCain would ask permission to defend Americans against terrorists who want to kill them.

There is much ado about Obama’s response about the Farrakhan question. Farrakhan did NOT formally endorse Barack Obama but said nice things about him. Last time I checked the definition of ‘reject’ was to refuse to accept; and the definition of denounce was to condemn openly as being evil or reprehensible. Obama clearly denounced Farrakhan’s anti-Semitic position and stated there was nothing to reject as he was not endorsed by Farrakhan. Clinton’s bating Obama not only to ‘denounce’ but also ‘reject’ Farrakhan was juvenile and derisory. As an Ethiopian-Jewish American, I have faced both racism and anti-Semitism. I loathe Farrakhan’s hatred toward Israel and the Jews, but there is nothing wrong with him expressing his appreciation for Obama. Just imagine the media going nuts if Trent Lott endorsed McCain or said nice things about him; I bet you’ll never hear that.

In defense of another Jeff.

The answer to your question kool-aid man... how obama is not in his depth in foreign policy? It is really quite trivial... obama's knowledge that is. 1. He opposed the surge which in all military respects has been trumpeted as a win, obviously the political implications are yet to be known. 2. He states repeatedly that he is the anti-war candidate, as of his speech at the convention in 2002. This seems odd given his answer to a pointed question on the war in 2004... "he did not know how he would have voted on the Iraq War Resolution given the information that Senator Kerry and Edwards were provided." Sounds like a RESOUNDING answer to me. 3. Since actually being a member of the us senate, which he was not so encumbered with in 2002, he has consistently voted to fund the war effort which he touts as "just support of the troops"... in actuality like many of his brethren, he could have voted to de-fund the troops and end the war. He chose not to, not only that but he chose not to stand in any effective manner until he began his run for president. 4. He has stated in the recent past that the embargos on cuba need to be lifted.. he would be willing to meet with the future cuban leader before a political process was developed but.... then he flip-flopped to the more established Clinton philosophy realizing that his judgement was not sound... renounce her stance then adapt it... hmmmm. He is not what he says he is so... the kool-aid must be starting to taste a little bitter. ohhhhh yeeeeah!

In defense of another Jeff.

The answer to your question kool-aid man... how obama is not in his depth in foreign policy? It is really quite trivial... obama's knowledge that is. 1. He opposed the surge which in all military respects has been trumpeted as a win, obviously the political implications are yet to be known. 2. He states repeatedly that he is the anti-war candidate, as of his speech at the convention in 2002. This seems odd given his answer to a pointed question on the war in 2004... "he did not know how he would have voted on the Iraq War Resolution given the information that Senator Kerry and Edwards were provided." Sounds like a RESOUNDING answer to me. 3. Since actually being a member of the us senate, which he was not so encumbered with in 2002, he has consistently voted to fund the war effort which he touts as "just support of the troops"... in actuality like many of his brethren, he could have voted to de-fund the troops and end the war. He chose not to, not only that but he chose not to stand in any effective manner until he began his run for president. 4. He has stated in the recent past that the embargos on cuba need to be lifted.. he would be willing to meet with the future cuban leader before a political process was developed but.... then he flip-flopped to the more established Clinton philosophy realizing that his judgement was not sound... renounce her stance then adapt it... hmmmm. He is not what he says he is so... the kool-aid must be starting to taste a little bitter. ohhhhh yeeeeah!

Well, you might not be able to xerox change, but Mr Obama sure knows how to xerox Ms Clinton's policies and views!

That aside, I find this article sober-minded and, I see, under attack for not going weak at the knees over Mr Obama.
And thanks for inserting some sanity on the Mevedev issue.

As a non-American observing the Democratic primaries from the great continent of Africa, I continue to be amazed, but not surprised, at the lovestruck reporting of some of the mainstream US media. What's happened to journalism?

Jean
Windhoek, Namibia

My question is. . .
After 20 debates (four of which have been one-on-one), does John McCain really think he's ready to take on Obama in a head-to-head national debate?
It appears clear to me that each time one of these debates has been held that Obama has gotten stronger and made his opponent look more inept.
With this much "practice" under his belt I feel he's going to once again keep the momentum going into the GE debates.
Maybe it's not a bad idea for ol Johnny Mac to have a practice one-on-one with Huckabee before the Huckster calls it quits.

1) Minister Farrakhan did NOT endorse Obama.

2) Farrakhan is not an anti-Semite any more than he is anti-Black or anti-Muslim or anti-Christian. It is absolutely AMAZING that this 24-year-old quote made its way into this debate. Is the press THAT desparate for a story against Obama?

3) For the record (which has been around for quite some time):

The exact 1984 quote was this: "...America and England and the nations backed Israel's existence. Therefore when you aid and abet someone in a criminal conspiracy, you are a part of that criminal conspiracy. So America and England and the nations are criminals in the sight of almighty God. Now, that nation of Israel, never has had any peace in forty years and she will never have any peace because there can never be any peace structured on injustice, thievery, lying and deceit and using the name of God to shield your dirty religion under His holy and righteous name."

Is Farrakhan saying there should be no state of Israel? No. He has repeatedly said that only the injustice toward the Palestinians need be removed, with a Palestinian state living side-by-side with Israel. Farrakhan has struck up an association with a group of fundamentalist rabbis from Brooklyn. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), which has led the charge against the Nation of Islam over the last two decades, has actually criticized Farrakhan for meeting with these rabbis as if he can only be considered "pro-Semitic" if he is accepted by the right kind of Jews.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20865
http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/03-08-00.html

http://ketchupandcaviar.com/2008/02/27/political-wankery-the-latest-debate-and-the-oh-snap-nihilism-of-our-public-discourse/
Excerpt:
Russert, for whom being a “tough” questioner means trying to create “Oh SNAP!” moments, tries to imply that Obama is guilty by association, that he is an ant-semitic black militant, because he hasn’t sought out every high-profile supporter, vetted their positions, and then issued an acceptance or rejection statement.

Clinton’s “meaning of is is” response to this–”reject” vs. “denounce”–is just another example of her cynicism. Obama’s response is about as classy and devastating a smackdown as any thinking person could ever hope for: “But if the word ‘reject’ Senator Clinton feels is stronger than the word ‘denounce,’ then I’m happy to concede the point, and I would reject and denounce.” Clinton’s oblivious response “good” misses the fact that “I concede the point” is a way of saying “you’re an idiot for lawyering this distinction” with ironic magnanimity. Far too subtle for her, and for today’s pundits, who must simply marinate in the drool of their own open-mouthed confusion when reading Oscar Wilde or anything similar (Roger Simon of The Politico wonders if it means “lacks an instinct for the jugular,” and Andrew Sullivan thinks it’s “Weak, weak, weak.”) Of course, they would probably laugh in derision at the thought that such subtleties have anything to do with public discourse in the first place, and would probably initiate this line of analysis: is Obama too witty to be president, and for the voters (meaning “us pundits”)? Too intelligent? Too classy?

I am sick of Obama's lies. Farrakhan has been given the Lifetime Acheivement Award by Obama's church and Pastor Wright in the church's newspaper The Trumpet. Type in his name + Pastor Wright and you will see this is true!! Obama believes in this church and Pastor Wright and SIGNED a document to honor the rules of this church....Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago....try visiting their website. Wake up people!! This church & Obama do not like white people...they only believe in black empowerment.
PLUS....Obama lies about being raised ONLY by a single mother & grandparents. Funny he seems to forget about his step-dad. I have seen pictures of him with his Mom, step-dad, baby sister, and Obama was 10 years old. Quit telling LIES, Obama!!

Ignorance is really a sad thing. There is actually a reason why Hillary "rejected" the Independence Party, whereas Obama was content to use the word "denounce" with regard to Farakhan's "endorsement" (such as it was). In Hillary's case, she was asked by the Independence Party to appear on the ballot as its (the Independence Party's) candidate -- but because of anti-semitic remarks by some of that Party's key people, she was uncomfortable appearing on the ballor as the IP nominee -- and so she "rejected" that request instead of accepting it, a request that required her to either accept or reject.

By contrast, Obama was not asked to do anything by Farakhan -- not even to acknowledge the "endorsement" -- so there was nothing for him to "reject" that explicit denunciation is not adequate to achieve. He was quite clear that he abhors anti-semitism, has been a strong supporter of Israel and the American Jewish community, and that, as an African American in Chicago, he has necessarily crossed paths with Farakhan and has had to deal with being supported by Farakhan's supporters, which he can't stop, but which is certainly not driving his reaction to the Farakhan endorsement. There was nothing to reject, and denunciation was enough, at leasdt from where I sit (and I am 50-year old Jewish male, for what that's worth).

As for calling Farakhan "Minister" I see that as the continuation of the basic human decency and respect for others that Obama has exemplified throughout this campaign. Is it really necessary to vilify and act with deliberate disrespect to those we oppose politically or even morally when we disagree with them, or is it enough to denounce what they say and do, while retaining a tone of civility in talking about them? Clearly, Russert and Clinton don't know the first thing about respect and civility, but frankly, I see this as a GOP approach to dealing with people they disagree with -- utter disrespect, and even distortions and lies, to make them appear not merely inferior, but evil. I thought that this election was about changing that dynamic forever.

Finally, on the broader symbolism of all of this -- the point Russert was making and Hillary was embracing is that they (and presumably we) should not be satisfied unless Obama uses Tim's exact words to denunicate somebody who, whether we like it or not, is still considered an important political figure within the African American community in the United States. Is there some magic to Tim's words? Must we always capitulate to narcissistic "gotcha" journalism as practiced by its most egomaniacal purveyor, somebody who knowingly distorted what Obama said about public financing (he admitted on MSNBC after the debate that he expected Obama to correct his (Russert's) misquote in his response and was surprised when he didn't -- meaning that he asked the question knowing that he was misquopting Obama in a way that makes it seem much more like he is reneging on something, when clearly he is acting completely consistently with his prioor statements.

Obama has been very critical of anti-semitism before African Amercian audiences. Why is his denunciation of Farakhan's anti-semitic and racist remarks not enough? Is it necessary that he go out of his way to alienate a meaningful percentage of Democratic voters who would otherwise support him in order for him to meet the Russert/Clinton litmus test for anti-semitic denunciation? With all due respect, it is this type of attack that feeds the racist opponents of the Democratic Party -- and for Hillary, who accuses Obama of sending out flyers against her that look like they came from the RNC, to press this type of attack is the height of hypocrisy -- not surprising mind you, but hypocrisy of the worst kind (like accusing your opponent of plagerism in the same debate where your best moment was a line you lifted from your Husband's 1992 campaign without attribution). One should not need to commit fratricide in order to prove the depth and sincerity of one's opposition to a racist's ignorant rants.

Shame on you, Hillary Clinton, SHAME ON YOU.

as low of a low point as it was in tim russert's moderation of last night's democratic debate, i do think it's interesting that many in the blog world are harping on russert's louis farrakhan questioning and not seeing what i saw in the moment: senator obama wanted to have it both ways.

read all of:
tuesdays

tony - I'd suggest that's because you appear to be yet another person who doesn't understand that there wasn't actually anything to reject. Try reading the comment above yours.

"There are some things you just don’t do in American politics: calling Farrakhan “minister Farrakhan” is one of them."

But - he is a minister. ?????

"There are some things you just don’t do in American politics: calling Farrakhan “minister Farrakhan” is one of them."

But - he is a minister. ?????

"There are some things you just don’t do in American politics: calling Farrakhan “minister Farrakhan” is one of them."

But - he is a minister. ?????

Adam,

I'm a young Obama supporter from California. I don't hate Hillary-- both of my parents are ardent supporters of hers. But there's no question that I've lost a whole lot of respect for her over the last four months. I don't think that my change of heart for Hillary is poorly founded.

My dislike of Hillary started during the summer. I was all set to work for her campaign in the San Francisco headquarters. After the first few days of being an intern for the campaign, it was apparent that Hillary was running a very traditional campaign. There was no attention to registering new voters, or engaging young people. Personally for me, this showed me how out of touch she was, and this is exactly what I don't want in a president. While conventional wisdom tells candidates not to waste time with the youth vote, every single study within the past year indicated that the my generation-- the millenials-- are increasingly becoming civically engaged. I'm pretty dedicated to youth issues (I work at an aid for a state legislator), so this was something important to me.

Then came the loss in Iowa, where she then declared the youth to be important, and touted Chelsea around with her wherever she went, when she was nowhere to be found before that. So that's just one of my reasons for going from being firmly in her camp to being a full supporter of Obama.

You mention that electorally, Clinton has a better chance to win. I don't think her chances are better than Obama, but I'm also concerned with down-ticket races as well-- and Hillary isn't an asset to red state dems who are trying to increase their numbers in Congress. If Obama were to lose the general (and that's a huge IF), there's no question that the Dems would still be able to gain seats by virtue of him being at the top of the ticket, and that does count for something.

I mentioned that there's a possibility that Obama could lose the general. But there's an even bigger possibility that Clinton would lose. Obama may not be able to win Texas or Utah, but he sure gives Dems a chance to make in-roads in these states. We'll never have the opportunity to turn these red states to blue states unless we start trying. And every poll I've seen lately as Clinton either tying McCain or losing, while Obama wins handily. There's no question that CA will vote dem for president. Obama will not lose blue states, especially if Bill and Hillary do get behind him, and I'm sure they will.

I don't believe that Obama has a worse chance of getting Florida. You cite that older voters won't vote for him. But it's also true that as voters get to know Obama, their support of him increases. We never thought Obama could make a dent in Clinton's demographics (ie Women, Latinos, Blacks, and those over 40), but he has.

And as for Hillary having more substantive policies-- I think that's a myth. My public policy professor, Dr. Robert Reich, who served as Clinton's Secy of Labor is behind a lot of Obama's policy proposals like his plan for Social Security and healthcare. A lot of Obama's advisors were a part of the Clinton administration, and I think its important to emphasize that. Clinton may come across as a policy wonk, but it's her staff that is going to do most of the substantive work on policy. And her staff, judging by her campaign, suck.

I hope you properly research Obama's policy proposals before you dismiss him as being full of hot air.

Even the Anti-Defamation League calls him "Minister" in their press release:
http://tinyurl.com/2jvbum

How about some even-handedness? What about John McCain being "honored" to have the support of radical religious leaders like John Hagee... does he get a pass because they're white???

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/02/28/hagee/index.html

Total double standard. Sen. Obama has to denounce a guy he's already denounced, nobody asks McCain a thing about a guy he's proud to have supporting him. I wonder if there are any other reasons that *you* might *feel* a little weird about it...