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A Snag For Proponents Of A Redo In Florida

12 Mar 2008 08:47 am

The joint statement by House Democrats in Florida opposing Florida 2.0 represents a victory by the Obama campaign, which has, as a matter of tactics, tried to add a layer of uncertainty to the ongoing discussions between the state Democratic Party and the Democratic National Committee.

The statement comes as the state party is putting the final touches on draft language for a statewide mail-in primary; its officials and attorneys are working closely with lawyers for the DNC. (No formal agreement has been reached within the party to actually proceed with a re-vote.)

DNC officials stress that Howard Dean is as resolute as ever: he is not going to compromise and there is no formal mechanism even if both campaigns "agree" ... the only routes are the rules committee process or a rules-and-bylaws committee sanctioned re-vote.

Florida Democrats used to be frustrated. They're now panicked, feeling pressure from elected officials, activists, donors and candidates. They're fighting among themselves over who is to blame and there is no agreed upon end-game. Many believe that the Obama campaign is unnecessarily pressuring its supporters to throw up roadblocks

The party has a few weeks to figure out what it wants to do. They're putting aside the money problem, at least for money, assuming, probably correctly, that if a primary is set, the money will come.

The state generally sends overseas and military ballots out 45 days before the election, so assuming that the election would be held between June 1 and June, that first round of ballots would be sent out in the middle of April. Then, at the end of April, the bulk of the ballots would be sent out. Satellite locations would be set up to allow people to vote in person, if they wanted to. Registration would remain open until the end of April, allowing anyone who wanted to vote in the Democratic primary to register by then and allowing the candidates some organizational wiggle room.

HRC won, if you'll recall, 49 to 33. Can Obama exceed 33% of the vote? That's his floor -- and the floor for his expectation. He is almost certain to improve on this number, which would, under certain circumstances, give him the equivalent of a moral and perceptual victory in the state.

What worries Obama managers in Chicago is the timing: if Florida is seen as a real re-do, and if the media portrays it as a wide open contest, a clear Clinton victory would give her a big bounce of momentum right as the primary window closes.

Comments (40)

Exactly what "roadblocks" are the Obama campaign putting up to a re-do? The Clinton camp is throwing this charge at Obama for self-interested reasons, but is there evidence that Obama is blocking a re-do? The only resistance I've seen from them is a very legitimate concern about ballot security in a mail-in election. This is a very serious issue as ballot can be easily stolen and mailed in in somebody else's name. The way to avoid this is to set up an electronic signature registry as they have in Oregon. But that takes years to set up. Ballot stealing has already occurred in Texas where voters showed up to vote and found that somebody already sent a mail-in vote on their behalf. And with Florida's dubious election history, voters there have good reason to be suspicious of a mail-in vote.

That said, a full-on primary should be workable if all the soft money is out there to fund it. Either way, blaming Florida's failure to re-do their primary on Obama is unfair.

The voters didn't agree to the primary date, our leaders of the state did. Punish the right people (the leaders) not the voters. We shouldn't be punished for something we didn't do.
It' be like sending you & your co-workers to prison for something your boss did, while he gets away with it.
Count my original vote! (No Revote)

Since Wisconsin, I think that the Obama campaign has been trying to gracefully exit Hillary from the campaign. I suspect that the slow response in Ohio, as well as the focus on McCain was to set her up for a graceful exit. Which she did not take.

Now, they are trying to firm up the stadium walls against the moving goal poats. If Hillary wins 10 delegates in PA, the next call from her will be for FL and MI. If there is no FL and MI, the end is in NC. With the McCain comment, they have become less gracious and more forceful.

I think that Hillary did not want FL revoted, since, even in the best of circumstances, she does not do better than she did in Feb.

Somewhere in the Democratic brain, someone has to figure out how to get Hillary from the race. The Ferraro comments show the danger.

Gene, we'll count your original vote when the hundreds of thousands of African-Americans who were told to stay home because the vote "didn't matter" get their chance to weigh in as well.

What Obama and his campaign have said throughout is the same as what they have done throughout. They have followed the DNC rules.

If the DNC works with the state party and gets a deal to do another vote, then they will be there and go after delegates.

Obama seems to have the radical opinion that the campaigns don't set the rules, but they follow them.

"HRC won, if you'll recall, 49 to 33. Can Obama exceed 33% of the vote? That's his floor -- and the floor for his expectation. He is almost certain to improve on this number, which would, under certain circumstances, give him the equivalent of a moral and perceptual victory in the state."

What makes you think obama would do better? Based on what?

"What worries Obama managers in Chicago is the timing: if Florida is seen as a real re-do, and if the media portrays it as a wide open contest, a clear Clinton victory would give her a big bounce of momentum right as the primary window closes."

So you are saying obama is playing politics with over a million dem voters. You are saying obama would rather disenfranchise those dem voters than have their votes count. Correct? If that’s correct you think obama will do better in a revote with voters you say obama wants to wants to disenfranchise. Why?

It's not really disenfranchisement, since these voters were never enfranchised. The whole thing is beyond ridiculous. It is the fault of the Florida Dem party, pure and simple. And HRC is only pushing this because she's so far behind (and she is far behind--further than ever, in fact). She doesn't care about enfranchising these voters anymore than she assigns any value to the popular vote anywhere else. After all, this is the campaign that had Geradline Ferraro write an op-ed vaunting the right of superdelegates to overturn the popular vote. So how, again, does she care about enfranchisement?

hilarious. god how i love Dean being DNC chair. a man of rules and not being bullied.

as far as i care, FL disenfranchised themselves. it isn't like the state is as much of a swing state as it once was. i see no reason to pander to them.

Obama is not a true democrat .A democrat would never remove their name from a ballott as he did Michigan. Africian Americans and women in particular should be outraged as they fought so hard for the right to vote. People in Florida voted it was far more fair and a reflection of the voters than any caucus vote. SO ACCEPT FLORIDAs VOTE AS YOU LOST OBAMA. OBAMA DID RUN ADS IN FLORIDA ON CHANNELS LIKE CNN. THE PEOPLE SPOKE IN RECORDS NUMBERS ..Michigan is a different kettle of fish and maybe should be redone or they should award the uncommitted to OBAMA.

Obama is not a true democrat .A democrat would never remove their name from a ballott as he did Michigan. Africian Americans and women in particular should be outraged as they fought so hard for the right to vote. People in Florida voted it was far more fair and a reflection of the voters than any caucus vote. SO ACCEPT FLORIDAs VOTE AS YOU LOST OBAMA. OBAMA DID RUN ADS IN FLORIDA ON CHANNELS LIKE CNN. THE PEOPLE SPOKE IN RECORDS NUMBERS ..Michigan is a different kettle of fish and maybe should be redone or they should award the uncommitted to OBAMA.

I just heard Bill Robinson of the Orange County Democratic Party interviewed on the local public radio station, WMFE. He was discussing talks going on in the state party regarding the details of a re-vote. He indicated that the results of a re-do would be combined in some way (not yet determined) with the primary results. I cannot fathom why you would go to the trouble and expense to hold a new primary and then take into account the results of an earlier vote -- unless of course you are a Hillary supporter and fear she won't fair as well if the voters are actually informed and focused on the race.

To get a feel for the hard numbers:

There are about 2,800,000 African-Americans in Florida, about 16% of the population.

Yet, according to MSNBC's exit polls, African-Americans made up about 19% of the primary vote.

In contrast, Tennessee, which also has a 16% proportion of African-Americans, they made up nearly 30%. In Texas, where only 11% of the population is African-American, they made up 19% of primary vote. It stands to reason that a revote would see the African-American vote increased to anywhere from 25% to 32% of the total Democratic vote.

Even more significantly, people in the 18-44 range were severely underrepresented in the Florida results.

It's evident that those who turned out were older whites who work less hours (or not at all), tend to vote in every election anyway, and had more at stake with the property tax initiative which was also on the ballot.

It's no wonder why Clinton apologists only want their "original vote" counted, it counts twice as much with the significant voter depression that occurred.

Hundreds of thousands of people voted for a property tax referendum but not a presidential candidate. Why? Because they understood such a vote would be meaningless. Pushing to seat these delegates is nothing more than gamesmanship. So no, Harry, your vote shouldn't count.

As the hard numbers demonstrate, the Clinton partisans' claim that not counting the original votes is somehow "disenfranchisement" is, at best, a duplicitous claim. It's evident that, even with Florida's higher proportion of elderly voters, both minorities and 9-5 workers of the 18-44 age range did not go to the polls, a dual consequence of being told by EVERYONE that their vote didn't matter and having no GOTV operations in place.

The original result is itself nothing more than a statement of widespread "disenfranchisement."

Though I think Clinton would win a revote by a 6-10 point margin, I think the only just course of action is to hold another primary. Of course, it's the responsibility of Florida's Democratic leadership to make this happen. If they can't, Florida Democrats need to take it up with them. Obama has no power here. He's not in charge of the DNC and he's standing in nobody's way.

"It's no wonder why Clinton apologists only want their "original vote" counted, it counts twice as much with the significant voter depression that occurred.

Posted by Klaus"

There was record turn out in FL. Record numbers of dems voters turned out and voted for Hillary. Get over it.

Hillary "apologists" want a revote. obama wants to disenfranchise more than a million dem voters. What part of that don't you understand?

I think it is very clear that if Howard Dean has his way that Michigan and Florida's delegates will not be seated without a revote. And it is starting to become obvious to everyone that he will not cave like a Senator on FISA. One clue was that two of three co-chairs of the credentials committee were co-chairs of the rules and bylaws committee that voted to strip Michigan and Florida of all of their delegates instead of just half. Dean appointees will be the swing vote on any question before the credentials committee where Obamamaniacs and Clintonistas are divided along candidate lines.

Florida has HUGE seasonal residency shifts. Beginning in April and lasting through October 10s of thousands of residents (perhaps 100s of thousands) depart for Northern climates. A June primary will not easily capture their votes.

Folks need to acknowledge there is no way to redo the vote in June that in anyway reflects the population. This is a fact, and I'm an Obama supporter.

As for those Clinton partisans disingenuously howling about how "the people spoke" in Florida "in record numbers," consider this:

Florida's population is 60% larger than that of Ohio.

Yet, Ohio saw a much larger turnout than Florida. The same is true of places like Illinois.

Where did that 60% of the vote go? Who were they? Again, minorities and workers aged 18-44.

hadenough,

Actually, people like gene and harry want to count the original result, even though hundreds of thousands of minorities and young workers were told to stay home.

I'm all for a revote. Obama has no problem with a revote (regardless of what some strategist might say). Dean has no problem with a revote.

Let's have a revote, but those acting like the original vote is somehow definitive and not tainted are clearly at odds with the hard numbers.

"both minorities and 9-5 workers of the 18-44 age range did not go to the polls

Posted by Klaus "

Your math is garbage. 16% of FL being minority [if that's true, no link provided] says nothing about the number of minorty voters. Zero. The rest is just more hash.

At least it seems we'd agree caucuses are terrible. People that work for a living and the elderly can't do a caucus. The horrible turn out numbers for caucuses are the proof the lots of dems get left out. The prercentage of registered voters that can make a caucus is terrible. Caucuses are the worst idea ever.

"hadenough,

Actually, people like gene and harry want to count the original result, even though hundreds of thousands of minorities and young workers were told to stay home.

Posted by Klaus"

How about some backup for your wild claims? Something that backs up your claim that "hundreds of thousands of minorities and young workers were told to stay home." I'm really interested to see how "minorities and young workers" were targeted and by whom.

Curtis is right. The Obama campaign has been very consistent about following the rules as the standard for tactics. Dean has been very consistent that if you mess with the calendar the results will not count--if he backtracks now they lose all control of their future calendar.

Coming up with a new plan is the job of the states and DNC; competing as best they can under that plan is the job of the candidates. The idea that Clinton and Obama need to come up with a redo plan is ridiculous--they're hardly disinterested bystanders.

My preferred solution, obviously, is that Clinton's endorsement of McCain over Obama last week, and encouraginig of her campaign finance committeewoman and surrogater this week, will get enough supers off the fence to end this now. But I'm not too impressed with the supers secret powers of organization.

Florida sure has become a sticky wicket, as it were. However, during the six-week interval, I'd like to take this opportunity to further decrease Hillary Clinton's chances, by making my case to the good people of the State of Pennsylvania. I know Hillary would do anything to keep her friends and potential allies in that battleground state. I also find it remarkable that Hillary remembers eating ice cream at Foster Farms (hmm), as a child in her home-movie video of Penn., when she cannot or will not acknowledge more cogent matters – the good people of Penn. deserve to know about, at this later date: http://theseedsof9-11.com

Your math is garbage. 16% of FL being minority [if that's true, no link provided] says nothing about the number of minorty voters. Zero. The rest is just more hash.

Posted by hadenough | March 12, 2008 9:56 AM

Hadenough, I think you do need to consider that the VAST majority of Dems who voted in Florida did so because of a very important property tax referendum, and not because of the Democratic election. That should be apparent from the fact that so many people who voted for the referendum didn't bother to cast a vote for the nomination.

You should also consider that a lot of college students (and even minorities) don't own their own property, and thus had no incentive to show up to vote for the referendum when they KNEW their ballot in the Dem primary would be meaningless.

I'm having a very difficult time understanding why Clinton supporters truly believe that primary was a fair election. I agree that the voters weren't to blame for their plight (except to the extent that they voted for Crist for governor, or for republicans for the state house), and that there should be a re-vote if at all possible. But to say that the original primary was "fair" is just plain wrong. I also think it's going to be incredibly difficult to settle on a fair re-vote. Will new voters be able to register, as they might have done prior to the original primary if they'd have thought their votes would count? Will people who are out of state be able to vote? And if they do a mail-in re-vote (something Florida has never done), how will the validity of the ballots be determined?

This is going to be a tough call, no matter how it goes.

I would also point out that Clinton wants to get the MI and FL delegations seated because she stands to gain a substantial number of superdelegates from the two states. My recollection is that 26 supers from both states have already committed to her. Perhaps she's even more concerned about that than she is with the voters . . .

Republicans we need Florida and Michigan! If we work together with Hillary we can and combine our voting tricks and unfair influence and might be able to get Hillary as the nominee. Mccain will beat her beat her in the general election and even if he does not Hillary will play ball with our lobbyist and special interests. Lets go Florida ! If we can steal It for Bush It a general campaign for president with established rules and guidlines we can sure steal it easy now in the confusion of a revote!

Don't worry I won't be voting Obama in Nov., he isn't fighting to get my vote counted! He's only hurting his chances at becoming president. He don't want my vote to count now, I guess he doesn't want it in Nov. either!

The real blame for this debacle should go to the DNC. The DNC orchestrates the primary system as a big game. The DNC decided that the Florida and Michigan votes don't count. The DNC encouraged people in those states NOT to vote. No offense, but why should Iowa get first say? You want to talk about disenfranchisement? What about all the people who live in Pennsylvania and Michigan who's primary votes usually don't count at all because the candidate has already been decided upon?

The primaries should be held nationally on the same date for all states just like the real elections. Any other system is just an excuse for more political game playing.

Let's just pretend that Clinton swept Super Tuesday and the 12 states after that and had a clear shot at the nomination.

Would FL or MI even mention the fact that their delegates had been stripped?

Changing the rules because the race is close is just as unfair as changing the rules because your candidate is losing. Both states knew their delegates would not count and did not care until Clinton didn't get knocked out in OH and TX.

Poor turnout compared to other states shows that the voters were well aware that they were not actually participating in the election. (The lack of any other candidate but Clinton on the ballot in MI might have been a tipoff too).

And... at the end of the day... will we just end up with more 50/50 split delegates and millions of dollars wasted? Maybe Clinton will lose the argument that the original votes from FL and MI should count regardless (probably not, even if she wins)? Maybe Clinton will have a new argument that she gained a little more of the popular vote from these states?

It's just plain not worth it to change the rules of the game midway. No matter what happens, one side will feel that they were treated unfairly.

To Disenfranchised:

How do primary votes not count just because the contest is (by majority) decided by the time that state votes?

They still have their equal delegates and proportional voice... You're saying that Pennsylvania doesn't get a voice because they're later in the game? It still counts as equal and if the whole state wanted to go for another candidate, they can do so with their delegates.

Right now PA still has a voice, they can vote 100% for Clinton and change the face of this entire election.

FL and MI could have done the exact same thing if they hadn't decided to break the rules (and they still had a choice, but chose not to change the primaries back, even once they were stripped of delegates).

Spot on, Amy!!! When the Clintons see Fl and MI, they only see superdelegates.

Obama's smart to just stick with the DNC rules. Who can argue with that? Though I'd expect HRC still have a FL win, it's more than likely he'd cut into her lead in both states. Why? Because Obama is working for every single vote.

There's a reason Obama's ahead (despite what the Clintons tell you): From the beginning, he's had a 50-state strategy. The Clintons only care about "big" states. Votes like mine - IL's pretty big but it's too Obama to count - don't matter. That disgusts me. I want a nominee who cares about every single state - not solely the ones they win.

Gene is a concern troll. Go vote for McCain.

hadenough,
If the roles were reversed you'd be screaming about "the rules."

The best solution? Seat half the FL delegates and none of the superdelagates. Hillary gets a 16 delegate edge from FL, which is probably what she'd get in a full re-vote. And it's exactly what the GOP is doing so nobody can say they were being treated more unfairly by the Dems than the Republicans.

Way to tell it like it is judy.

Gene

I like your solution. But I fear Clinton will never agree to it, even though it's fair.

A redo should not take place in Florida (or Michigan).

First, Florida has proven incapable of conducting a responsible election under the best of circumstances, when there's plenty of time to plan. Imagine what a hastily arranged vote would look like there.

Second, both Clinton and Obama agreed to party rules. A redo would make it okay in the future to let states do whatever they wished, secure they wouldn't be punished.

Third, it would be unfair to the states that abided by the rules to allow Florida (and Michigan), states that chose to break the rules, to potentially decide the election. This would make a mockery of the process.

Finally, raising private funds to conduct the election would be the worst idea of all. You can bet contributors would want something in return. Just look at Bush's results with his privatization efforts.

If there just has to be a redo, it needs to be a caucus, where everything is in the open, and the state needs to foot the bill. Mail-in votes in other states have required years to iron out the kinks and is unworkable in Florida, where problems at the polls are legend.

A property tax proposal spurred the large turnout in the Floria primaries. The voters knew the presidential tally was a beauty contest when they voted.

Do it right in 2012, Florida.

"The voters didn't agree to the primary date, our leaders of the state did. Punish the right people (the leaders) not the voters. We shouldn't be punished for something we didn't do."

Hi! Welcome to representative democracy! You're in for a real shock when your realize how many Iraqis you killed today.

If there just has to be a redo, it needs to be a caucus, where everything is in the open, and the state needs to foot the bill.

Considering that Obama tends to do better than Hillary in caucuses, don't count on the Clinton campaign to agree to it.

As a white resident of Suwannee County, Florida, I pray for a re-vote so that Barack Obama can get not only the 30% black vote of our county, but the perhaps 15% white vote he would get here ... my husband and I are 1,000% for him. Our original vote was for John Edwards, but since he dropped out we are supporting Barack Obama. We're sick and tired of the tired old politics as represented by Clinton and her ilk. Her husband was simply Republican Lite. Having a mentally retarded daughter I can NEVER forget Bill's hastening home to Little Rock to execute a mentally retarded man to show how tough on crime he was ... no Willy Horton for Bill-O. So, let's see how Barack does. I'm willing to bet he'd knock Hillary on her sorry a--!

Apparently Howard Dean has lowered himself to the
level of the Republican slim machine.
The RNC ignored the will of the people in Florida
2000 and our nation has paid dearly under the Bush
White House.
It is unAmerican and undemocratic to tell the women and men of Florida and Michigan that their votes won't be counted and their delegates not recognized at the DNC convention!
Howard Dean has committed a tremendous disservice
to the Democratic Party and America.
Mr. Dean, "hello";In the United States Of America
"every vote must be counted and every delegate must be recognized>

Apparently Howard Dean has lowered himself to the
level of the Republican slim machine.
The RNC ignored the will of the people in Florida
2000 and our nation has paid dearly under the Bush
White House.
It is unAmerican and undemocratic to tell the women and men of Florida and Michigan that their votes won't be counted and their delegates not recognized at the DNC convention!
Howard Dean has committed a tremendous disservice
to the Democratic Party and America.
Mr. Dean, "hello";In the United States Of America
"every vote must be counted and every delegate must be recognized>

Obama should just give in and say it's okay to seat Florida. Crazy? Not at all. At most, Hillary nets 35 delegates. Right now, Obama's up 161 delegates, and all signs are that he'll extend that lead over the next couple months. If he gives Clinton Florida, he's still leading by 126 delegates and he denies her a win in June -- as the only realistic way Clinton can overcome Obama is to talk the superdelegates into it, the delegate count is not as important as tamping down any sense whatsoever of Clinton momentum.

Michigan is a tougher fix, but people aren't screaming about Michigan the way they are Florida.