An "Attack" On The Church

CBS News's John Bentley spent Palm Sunday at the United Church of Christ and was handed this press release:

“Nearly three weeks before the 40th commemorative anniversary of the murder of Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., the Reverend Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr.’s character is being assassinated in the public sphere because he has preached a social gospel on behalf of oppressed women, children, and men in America and around the globe.”

“It saddens me to see news stories reporting such a caricature of a congregation that has been such a blessing to the UCC’s wider church mission,” said the Rev. John H. Thomas, UCC General Minister President. “It’s time for us to say ‘no’ to these attacks and declare that we will not allow anyone to undermine or destroy the ministries of any of our congregations in order to serve their own narrow political or ideological ends.”

Moss [Rev. Otis Moss, III, Pastor] added, “The African American Church was born out of the crucible of slavery and the legacy of prophetic African American preachers since slavery has been and continues to heal broken marginalized victims of social and economic injustices. This is an attack on the legacy of the African American Church which led and continues to lead the fight for human rights in America and around the world.”

Comments

“It’s time for us to say ‘no’ to these attacks and declare that we will not allow anyone to undermine or destroy the ministries of any of our congregations in order to serve their own narrow political or ideological ends.”

Do they really want to go there? Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? This church exists to serve thier narrow political and/or ideological ends which are mix of Marxism and Black Nationalism.

Posted by Scott | March 16, 2008 2:37 PM

THANK YOU for featuring this!!!

I live in Chicago, and I know a number of people who are members of Trinity. They are heartily sick of being attacked and mischaracterized by the media. This is a congregation that does a TON of good in a community that REALLY needs it.

There needs to be a major pushback on this attempt to smear Obama by trashing this congregation. This is completely unconscionable!!!

Posted by Tungsten | March 16, 2008 2:41 PM

Scott:

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about! I would respectfully characterize your statements as baldly idiotic.

How much do you ACTUALLY know about this church and the community it serves? How about you take a little trip to the South Side, sit in the pews at Trinity, and see what it's really all about.

I am not a churchgoer, but am outraged by the smear on this congregation. I've seen the good work they do firsthand.

Posted by Tungsten | March 16, 2008 2:46 PM

This church exists to serve thier narrow political and/or ideological ends which are mix of Marxism and Black Nationalism.
You you say this based on what? The church is more than Wright, and Wright is more than the snippets you've heard. Try this for starters.

Posted by bjd | March 16, 2008 2:47 PM

What about freedom of religion?

There are many things that religions do that would be, um, questionable if it were not for the separation of church and state.

Priests and other religious leaders have a certain freedom to preach, and that often means they tweak us with unpalatable or unpopular views. They are suppose to lead us, and sometimes, in exercising this leadership, they can go astray as well.

I don't think one has to agree with everything said in every sermon to be a member of a Church (or Temple, or Mosque, or whatever) but there is going too far. This old sermon by Wright perhaps went a bit too far. But who is he to know that one of the members of his Church would become a Presidential candidate?

Having said that, if we were do do the identical exercise for every major politician --- looking up things said by their pastor, etc. in sermons for something somebody don't like, it would be quite the gold mine.

Let's leave the Churches out of this political contest and preserve the separation of Church and State.

Posted by D | March 16, 2008 3:00 PM

The sense of persecution is always something that politicians and preachers play on. It's always an ace up the sleeve with their constituents. It's the same string the Republicans play on when they talk about how their "family values are under assault" by those EVIL secular humanists! This is merely just a rallying cry; boiled down, it's "Poor little us!"

What do they really expect is going to happen? The more they thrash and fight the media coverage, the more of a spectacle it will all become. This only serves to invite more scrutiny. Dumb.

Posted by socctty | March 16, 2008 3:02 PM

Attacks??? This is justifiable public outcry. That "pastor" IS an Anti-American, Black Supremist. He has to be mentally ill to actually say such insane things. Hi congregation including Obama, must agree with his racist, Hitleresque Hate speech, or they would not attend. It is so called churches like this that continue to fuel racism and hatred in America. Obama is finished as a candidate and every sane American must condem
the TUCC hatred.

Posted by clint j | March 16, 2008 3:02 PM

Scott, you do realize that UCC is a predominantly white, mainline Protestant Denomination?

UCC traces its roots back the Congregationalists, ie. the Pilgrims. UCC is not going to abandon TUCC, even as people criticize, and rightly so, some of the rhetoric of Rev. Wright. Attacking a church like this, as FOX and Good Morning America have, and in such an decontextualized manner, is not good for anyone.

It could well backfire.

Posted by kid oakland | March 16, 2008 3:05 PM

D - that's a pretty crappy argument. Ethically, we should probably avoid digging up a bunch of smear material through old church sermons. But to argue it from the "separation of church and state" angle is silly.

How, exactly, is the state infringing upon this church's ability to do what they do? The Fourth Estate - the media - may be infringing or obstructing a bit, but it isn't the government of the United States that's doing so. Nothing illegal is going on with this.

Posted by socctty | March 16, 2008 3:05 PM

Tungsten,

I know that Pastor Wright has accused the US Government of creating the AIDS virus to inflict harm on the black community. I know there are children listening to this madness.

I know Pastor Wright is a vulgar preacher who has been known to curse during his sermons and has simulated Bill Clinton's transgression from the pulpit. Of course there is the US of KKK, etc.

That said, I'm sure they do some good work for the community. My point was that the church is a perfect example of existing to advance narrow political/ideological ends which the statement accuses others of doing.

Posted by Scott | March 16, 2008 3:07 PM

clint - Exactly what was Anti-American or Black Nationalistic about his sermons?

I don't expect you to actually respond to that in a reasonable manner; you're just a troll.

Posted by socctty | March 16, 2008 3:08 PM

This idea of going after Obama's pastor was really a dumb idea. Does anyone remember the idea of the separation of church and state? I think we as a nation have lost our moorings.

Posted by Micheline | March 16, 2008 3:09 PM

I'm glad the church is standing up for Rev. Wright. His remarks, as inflammatory as they sound in 30 second sound bites, actually argue for the US to live up to its promise of freedom, equality and justice for all. We as a country have not yet achieved this goal -- there is still an enormous amount of racism in the world. Rev. Wright is perfectly within bounds to argue that our foreign policy still bears the marks of racism and imperialism. We fail to take seriously any criticism of the US, as if we were above reproach. The oppressed among us -- the poor, the disenfranchised, and minority communities, particularly black communities, know this better than any of us.

Posted by laura | March 16, 2008 3:16 PM

(G D America) You can not get any more Anti-American than that. He preaches that blacks are being held down by the whites...Not true, have you ever heard ov Affermative Action?

HIV was invented to kill black men??? Mentally Ill if you ask me.

Preaching:

Black work ethic
Commitment to the Black Family
Commitment to the Black Community
Black Ethics
Black Value system

That is Black Supremicy no matter how you slice it.

Sincerely, a troll as you called me.

Posted by clint j | March 16, 2008 3:17 PM

What does this do to the Obama campaign? I know its sunday, but can i get a little context?

Posted by kim | March 16, 2008 3:20 PM

Obama Pastor, friend and spiritual leaders is a racist, teach hatred and resentment agaisnt white, Jewish and America. OK it should be perfectly fine that they exist but please bringing this message to the national campaign. Come on. This is not helping the African American community to move forward from resentment, this is destructive and this is destructive for the Country. I understand the african american vote, and I understand what kind of sentiments are behind it. I think every American should denounce it. I really concern about Obama and question his judgement, his views, his words, etc. He will be destroyed by the Republican attach machine. And a large portion of the Democratic base will have to support McCain to stop this guy to raise to power.

Posted by Maria Isabel | March 16, 2008 3:21 PM

If this is what this campaign becomes about Barack Obama just disqualified himself from being elected president.

Posted by Tim K | March 16, 2008 3:21 PM

Obama Pastor, friend and spiritual leaders is a racist, teach hatred and resentment agaisnt white, Jewish and America. OK it should be perfectly fine that they exist but please bringing this message to the national campaign. Come on. This is not helping the African American community to move forward from resentment, this is destructive and this is destructive for the Country. I understand the african american vote, and I understand what kind of sentiments are behind it. I think every American should denounce it. I really concern about Obama and question his judgement, his views, his words, etc. He will be destroyed by the Republican attach machine. And a large portion of the Democratic base will have to support McCain to stop Obama to raise to power.

Posted by Maria Isabel | March 16, 2008 3:22 PM

What it does to his campaign...FINITO. Obama
is finished as a candidate, and if he has any moral compass, he should resign his Senatorship.

Posted by clint j | March 16, 2008 3:23 PM

clint j - the HIV/AIDS thing is ridiculous, and it's something I've always heard growing up, which only serves to breed resentment and distrust of white people. So I agree on that. I hadn't heard that he repeated that idea.

I think the black ethics/work ethic/value system thing is just trying to get his congregation - predominantly blacks - to live up to their own standards. It's not supremacy.

As a whole, I think we're entirely too uncritical of our foreign policy, so I don't get all worked up about him talking about Nagasaki and Hiroshima and some of our other escapades overseas.

Posted by socctty | March 16, 2008 3:24 PM

Thanks, bjd, for the link to Rev Wright's Audacity of Hope sermon. I was very moved upon reading it. I've been to several African American churches in Chicago and to Trinity UCC twice. The black experience and expression of Christianity is distinctly different in my view from what you find in a suburban white community of mainstream protestant and Catholic congregations. Black Christianity is also more complicated than the media snapshots suggest.

I suspect the Afrocentrism that shows up in the sermons of Rev Wright, Father Michael Pfleger of St Sabina's and many other popular ministers has to do with energizing the congregation to do something about their situation vs enduring their plight or waiting it out, where life in heaven will be better.

The smear campaign against Trinity and Rev Wright lead by Rush Limbaugh and others of his ilk is designed to incite fear and suspicion. They might all be a bit surprised at how many white people attend these services who feel just as marginalized by "rich white men" as their black neighbors in the pews. eklees

Posted by Eileen Klees | March 16, 2008 3:26 PM

"That 'pastor' IS an Anti-American, Black Supremist. He has to be mentally ill to actually say such insane things. Hi congregation including Obama, must agree with his racist, Hitleresque Hate speech, or they would not attend. It is so called churches like this that continue to fuel racism and hatred in America."

I suspect this is pointless, but I feel compelled. There is nothing in any of the snippets of Wright's sermons circulating that is anti-American in general. Every time he mentions America, it is in the context of a particular set of actions or ideas that he is condemning. I think you meant to say "black supremacist," and again, at no point does Wright discuss the relative superiority or inferiority of any races. The only comparative statement he makes is that those of a privileged class cannot truly know the experience of being in a persecuted one. A black person knows the experience of being black better than a white person; he doesn't argue that that makes the black person better. "Hitleresque" is as offensive as anything Wright says in these clips. Does he advocate violence? An authoritarian state? Does he advocate blind allegiance to a leader? No. Quite the contrary, he explicitly condemns the elevation of state power to the divine level.

I am disturbed by the violence in many of the responses I've read to Wright, but now that the surprise is wearing off I find myself really curious to know: where do you see "hate" in Wright's words? Where, specifically, do you see racism? I understand that the phrase "God damn America" might be shocking to some, but isn't it clear that he's applying it to particular things the government does? Isn't it a preacher's job to point out unchristian actions and ideas, whichever ones he would describe in that way? Given the fact that everyone who actually attends the church or even just lives nearby seems to see it as a clear source of good for the community, shouldn't we assume that the bits of sermons we've seen out of context don't really represent Wright's ministry, that he's oriented more toward transformation than anger? I'm really asking, but I've been doing so for a few days now and I haven't yet heard an answer based on evidence and explanation.

Posted by professordarkheart | March 16, 2008 3:27 PM

clint j - Resign his "senatorship"? Uh... why? He "rejected AND denounced" the guy immediately and decisively.

I was going to give you a chance, since I prematurely labeled you a troll, but you clearly are just a hack.

Posted by socctty | March 16, 2008 3:28 PM

Well, we can agree to dissagre then. Thanks for your civil
exchange, socctty.

Posted by clint j | March 16, 2008 3:29 PM

This is not helping the African American community to move forward from resentment, this is destructive and this is destructive for the Country.

Maria Isabel,

What would be detrimetal to the country is whites and blacks avoiding having a frank discussion about race. Pretending that something doesn't exist will not solve the problem.

Posted by Micheline | March 16, 2008 3:29 PM

This is not helping the African American community to move forward from resentment, this is destructive and this is destructive for the Country.

Maria Isabel,

What would be detrimetal to the country is whites and blacks avoiding having a frank discussion about race. Pretending that something doesn't exist will not solve the problem.

Posted by Micheline | March 16, 2008 3:30 PM

I'm glad someone is saying this. Obama himself can't, of course, but it would be a shame if the whole discussion of this began with the premise that Wright's remarks were awful and indefensible.

Posted by Brendan | March 16, 2008 3:31 PM

Scott;

Again with the nonsense. For sure, Wright has said some wacky and over-the-top stuff. NEWS FLASH: Preachers do this a lot. I'm sure whatever religious leaders you pay attention never do, of course - at least if you attend the United Church of Disneyland. Read Wright's "audacity of hope" sermon (posted on Sullivan's blog). Oh, no, I guess this would require some actual open-mindedness.

Makes for good 30-second sound bites, doesn't it? But the more important point is to examine the ministry in toto. Which, of course, you and "clint" refuse to do. I'm sure it's your fantasy that the few out-of-context remarks getting play in the MSM are what the church is all about, but that is baloney. This anti - TUCC smear is outrageous, disgusting, and anti-American.

Martin Luther King is a modern day hero, no? If you like, I could assemble a bunch of 30-second sound bites from his speeches that would make Wright look tame. Minus the obscenity, but plus a hell of a lot more radical language.

So, I advise you and "clint" to open your minds a little. Oh, wait. I guess that's probably too much to ask.

I say, to all right-thinking Americans, it's time to man the barricades to stop this insane smear against TUCC!

Posted by Tungsten | March 16, 2008 3:34 PM

professordarkheart - Well said.

As a "militant agnostic", I find it a bit hard to muster up the energy to defend a preacher, so I instead find the energy to support reason and rationality, something clearly missing from a lot of these knee-jerk opinions of Rev. Wright.

Perhaps I am indifferent to it. I grew up in a predominantly (80% or so) black neighborhood in Houston, so I do have some understanding of the context in which Wright's arguments are being made.

Posted by socctty | March 16, 2008 3:35 PM

I guess I spoke to soon on the civil part. Yes he denounced the remarks. But only after it became public. If he truly dissagreed
with Mr. Wright, he would not have attended the church for 20 years, or called him is spiritual leader. It is easy to say Im sorry
after your caught. Obama must feel the same about America as
his Hitleresque pastor does, and he has no place in any public office.

Posted by clint j | March 16, 2008 3:35 PM

Could we stop - on both sides of this argument - using the phrase "anti-American"?

That's such a loaded term, and the idea of America is such a complex one, that virtually anything can be construed as anti-American. I mean, you're one step away from saying "They hate us for our freedom!"

Posted by socctty | March 16, 2008 3:39 PM

Tungsten,

outrageous, disgusting, and anti-American....descibes TUCC perfecly.

Posted by clint j | March 16, 2008 3:40 PM

Remember this: the Clinton campaign does not care if they throw under the bus the entire institution of the black church.

This church, as has many many black churches, has done so much good for their communities. Only the tabloid like media, along with the Hillary camp, along with people like Rush Limbaugh, manage to use a few comments by one individual to try to smear an entire church.

By this standard all churches are denigrated, as one can find in any church history some controversial comments by one pastor.

Before criticizing this church, ask yourself if you have done as much to serve your community as this church has?

Posted by cm | March 16, 2008 3:40 PM

clint j - He spoke about them months ago! How was he supposed to denounce comments he never heard until recently? I'll grant you that it's a bit of a stretch to assume Obama never heard those comments over 20 years, and that they were just made in the times that Obama didn't visit; nevertheless, he did speak about some of the comments several months ago. The story never caught legs until now.

And you're still repeating that "Hitleresque" nonsense, and proposing that Obama must feel exactly the way his pastor does, presumably hoping that if no one calls you on it, or if you ignore it when someone does, then it will just get accepted as truth.

Posted by socctty | March 16, 2008 3:47 PM

I bet this church and yes, even pastor Wright, has done more to help people in the most profound ways than people like Rush Limbaugh ever have.

This church has done far more for people than the corrupt Clintons.

Let's spend more press time and effort trying to get Hillary's tax returns. That has true relevance to us all.

How much have foreign govts and interests given to the Clintons, expecting favors in return? Can we trust Hillary to truly fight for energy independence, given the Clintons own financial dependence on Middle Eastern oil interests?

Bush and Cheney took over, and we see how they've rewarded their oil friends. Well, the Clintons have the same type of ties to the oil industry, only theirs stretch to the Middle East.

Posted by cm | March 16, 2008 3:49 PM

clint j,

In case you didn't see my questions for you above, since I didn't begin my post with your name: can you help me to understand where you're coming from?

Posted by professordarkheart | March 16, 2008 3:49 PM

Just as a clarification, it's not like Wright made all of his incendiary comments at the church. He has done extensive speaking outside of the church, and many of these comments were made at those other venues. It's not like Obama follows this guy around and attends every speech he gives.

Posted by cm | March 16, 2008 3:52 PM

clint:

Whatever. Nanny-nanny poo-poo to you too. I find your trollish responses amusing.

May I ask, what is your opinion of Martin Luther King? Naturally, I'm sure you're intimately familiar with his rhetoric.

But keep up the bad work, kiddo. We always need reminders about how foul our national discourse has gotten. Helps motivate the troops!

Posted by Tungsten | March 16, 2008 3:53 PM

'"...many of these comments were made at those other venues." -cm

If that's true, I think that's a good point. Of the videos I've seen, they were in his church, but that was only two videos, and frankly they weren't offensive (one was the "Hillary's never been called a nigger! video). So if that is the case - that these weren't made at church - it's something that's going unsaid.

Posted by socctty | March 16, 2008 3:57 PM

professordarkheart,

I don't know how I could be clearer. Pastor Wright Hates America, wants to continue fueling racism, and his comment are so far out there that only a mentally Ill person could make them.
He speeches were very Hitleresque in the hatred he was spewing. Obama and everyone who sits in a pew at the church
must be held accountable.

I would be just as outraged if this were a white candidate and a white pastor, Color doesn't matter to me at all. I would gladly vote for a Black president if he, or she, were the best person for the job.

Does that answere your question?

Posted by clint j | March 16, 2008 4:00 PM

Tunsten,

Mr. King talked about bringing us together and tearing down
racial barriors. Mr. Wright is dividing and fueling hate.

Posted by clint j | March 16, 2008 4:04 PM

Um, no. You've been quite clear about your opinions, but not about what you're basing them on. To hate is to think very badly of someone or something. Can you quote me a line in which such a sentiment is expressed? Can you tell me how you define racism and what specific ideas of Wright's you find racist? Hitleresque, again, I think is unreasonable (and according to Godwin's law, it's lost you the debate), but prove me wrong. Hitler's beliefs and actions are well-documented. What particular belief of his do you relate to one of Wright's?

In my original post, I responded in quite a bit of detail to specific words used and ideas expressed in Wright's sermons. I also referred to information from beyond them, such as the opinions held by people who have actually attended the church, and the community work the church has done. I can provide links to much more on any of these if you'd like.

So, at a similar level of detail, can you show me why you've arrived at these opinions?

Posted by professordarkheart | March 16, 2008 4:07 PM

I'm not here for a debating contest.

I'm right, you're totally wrong, and Obama is
finished as a polititian.

end of story

Posted by clint j | March 16, 2008 4:14 PM

Tungsten,

I have read the sermon on Sullivan's blog which was good and I could see how Obama would be insprired by that.

I also understand that there are cultural differences to be accounted for. Being white and Catholic, I'm not particularly well disposed toward the frenzied preacher type yet I understand that many others are.

But..Simulating a sex act from the pulpit, cultural differences aside, is pretty revolting. G-d damn America show his hatred for our country. Teaching his congregation that the US invented AIDS in an attempt to acheive black genocide is RACISM! It's a lie used to make blacks hate whites and does nothing to further the betterment of race relations.

It's a stretch to believe that Obama did not know these things or the general tone of a church which directly contradicts Obama's message of transcendence with regard to race and America in general. Mrs. Obama slips here and there to show us her contempt for her country and now it shows up again with Wright. People naturally want to know if Obama is affected too.

Stories about the lapel pin are not what he needs right now. He'll probably lose independents and a good portion of white working class folks over his judgement of belonging to a church where the pastor fans the racial divide. Race baiters need to be called out whether they are on the left or right.

Posted by Scott | March 16, 2008 4:18 PM

clint j,

Sorry, I thought your abundant posting meant you were actually interested in exchanging views. I guess you just like to repeat yourself. I did the best I could to try to take your opinions seriously, but since you're not interested in defending them, I can only assume you don't have a defense.

So, yes, end of story.

Posted by professordarkheart | March 16, 2008 4:18 PM

If you're a Democrat, the last thing you want in a presidential election year is a "frank discussion" about race.

Posted by Tim K | March 16, 2008 4:18 PM

I've been blogging about this topic over the last several days at http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com

Excerpt:
I've blogged about the unbalanced scrutiny the media is devoting to Wright versus it's examination of John McCain's "spiritual advisor" Rod Parsley. I wonder if we'll see, on a future "This Week", video clips of Parsley calling for a holy war, a new Crusades, to destroy Islam and the panel discussing the implications for McCain's candidacy. Perhaps a debate of the political implications for McCain of John Hagee's hate filled anti-gay or anti-Catholic screeds. Or will we just crack them up as crackpot fundamentalist ministers and understand that these dimwitted views don't reflect John McCain's moral base?

Posted by Jay McDonough | March 16, 2008 4:19 PM

I live in Chicago and voted for Obama in the primary because I have a huge dislike for Hillary. Now I learn that his pastor of 20 years says "God Damn" my country?! And this traitor was even on Obama's staff? What an idiot Obama is. Was I suckered!

I can't believe it but I'm going to vote Republican for the first time! God BLESS America!

Twan

Posted by Twan | March 16, 2008 4:24 PM

I live in Chicago and voted for Obama in the primary because I have a huge dislike for Hillary. Now I learn that his pastor of 20 years says "God Damn" my country?! And this traitor was even on Obama's staff? What an idiot Obama is. Was I suckered!

I can't believe it but I'm going to vote Republican for the first time! God BLESS America!

Twan

Posted by Twan | March 16, 2008 4:25 PM

I live in Chicago and voted for Obama in the primary because I have a huge dislike for Hillary. Now I learn that his pastor of 20 years says "God Damn" my country?! And this traitor was even on Obama's staff? What an idiot Obama is. Was I suckered!

I can't believe it but I'm going to vote Republican for the first time! God BLESS America!

Twan

Posted by Twan | March 16, 2008 4:25 PM

Part of the message of the Rev. Mr. Wright is that we should say "God Damn America" instead of "God Bless America." The only other minister I'm aware of with a similar message is Fred Phelps and his "God hates America" (and "fags" and everyone else that doesn't belong to his church, apparently).

If "God Damn America" is an acceptable message, then defend the message and don't hide behind the excuse of that the church does good works. Jerry Falwell's church, the Nation of Islam and others do lots of good works, but that doesn't improve the content of their frequently hateful messages.

And don't patronize black people by holding them to a lower standard than anyone else. Black people are not children or savages and the claim that the US government created AIDS, etc. is just as stupid coming from a black person as a white person.

Posted by Bill | March 16, 2008 4:25 PM

I appreciated it, Prof DarkHeart. I've heard the conspiracy theories for the Aids virus in many places, from many people. It's wrong, and betrays a willingness to look for conspiracies. But that willingness didn't arise out of some vacuum; it arose out of the Tuskeegee experience. If they ask for scientific funding, I have a problem. If it's raving about someone's plot--you can find a million of those on the internet, and still, we aren't all making little tin foil hats to protect ourselves.

And, to broaden out: I heard many people, in the wake of 9/11, say in effect "I don't think we even have a foreign policy, but if we do, I'm sure it's a nice one." Of course 9/11 had a lot to do with the US's foreign policy. It wasn't justified. It wasn't a decent response. But we do have a foreign policy, it has done both much good and some evil, and most Americans don't have the slightest clue what goes on far from our shores. For someone on the left or right to condemn America's foreign policy in strong terms is not unheard of.

Bill, Fred Phelps screams through bullhorns outside the funerals of fallen soldiers because he believes that 9/11 and the Iraq war were sent as deserved punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuals. I don't see Wright screaming to drown out remembrances of the dead at other churches. I don't see him stating that the US is being punished by an angry God for our sinful nature. I hear him condemning some actions of the government he finds shocking, and calling on God. I may not agree with him, but conflating him with Fred Phelps is not fair or justified.

Clint, if your response to repeated requests for a specific quote that supports your position is "I'm right, you're wrong," that says a lot about your position.

Posted by Deborah | March 16, 2008 4:40 PM

Bill,

I already defended the message in my first post in the thread. I think it's very clear from the context that he is not damning the country but condemning certain of its past actions and attitudes. I'm not patronizing black people, I am one; thanks for your defense, though. I know the black church, which has its own very distinct rhetorical traditions, and my effort is to help people to see the message behind a style of oratory that is meant to shock people out of complacent thinking (its original purpose was to question the unquestioned contention of most of the southern clergy that slavery was ordained by God).

It is of course not true that the government created AIDS; I don't condone the spreading of that particular falsehood. Rumor has historically had a peculiar place in black discourse, conspiracy theories especially. There's quite a bit of scholarly work on how, despite not being true, such rumors point to shared political beliefs and skepticisms within a community. Interesting stuff, but I don't think that makes it OK to repeat such things as fact from a position of authority.

I can say with confidence, however, that if I had heard a couple of disappointing errors like that from my pastor if my church, like TUCC, has been completely trailblazing in the black community as far as HIV/AIDS ministry and an active fight against homophobia, it wouldnt even occur to me to condemn or leave the church.

My references to the church's good works are not an excuse; they're an attempt to begin to fill in some of the context of Wright's ministry, and in this case the point is that his anger toward injustice is only the starting point for a very compelling message of taking responsibility for combating injustice in our own minds and where we encounter it in our lives.

Posted by professordarkheart | March 16, 2008 4:41 PM

Interesting historical perspective in that press release and, also, here:
http://acropolisreview.com/2008/03/barack-obama-condemns-reverend-jeremiah.html

Posted by TC | March 16, 2008 4:41 PM

Scott;

I'm glad to see you've tempered your views, or at least your rhetoric. Being white and atheist, I tend to look at all religion with a jaundiced eye, and I put a high premium on the works I see coming out of a given congregation. I'd ask: do you agree 100% with everything a given priest says both inside and outside of the church? With everything that priest will ever say? I've been in a lot of churches, and have heard some unbelievably stupid and incendiary stuff.

That Wright has occasionally gone over the top is not at issue here. The vast bulk of his ministry is pretty good stuff, and does NOT encourage Black racism. Perhaps it's instructive that the TUCC members I know don't even remember the HIV-USA bit that's getting so much play. Mostly, people kind of roll their eyes and say, oh, there goes Pastor Wright. Please, don't tell me this has never happened to you.

Obama is demonstrably above all of this crap. He's always been, and his rhetoric has been consistent. You might disagree with him for other reasons. But please realize that this attack on his pastor and church is just wrong. Do we really want to start going after people's religion?

clint, as for you, there's really nothing to say. Go study MLK. He was widely hated in America during his short life, accused of being "anti-american". But he said "I'd rather die than hate you". And, die he did.

Posted by Tungsten | March 16, 2008 4:42 PM

clintj: Congratulations! Your posts on this forum are hands down the most misinformed and intellectually absurd I've seen on any political blog today. And, believe me,that's really saying something.

Posted by just a person | March 16, 2008 4:45 PM

Let's see:

He said "God Damn America", that the US deserved 9/11; that the US invented Aids to kill blacks, etc etc etc....

This is all great, isn't it? Wright has made a grearnumber of antisemitic and hate-speeches that were known to many for a long while.

Do you really believe Obama didn't know?

1000 good deeds, do not erase hate. Hate is hate and if you can tolerate it, if you have the stomach to
sit idle by it for 20 years; well then at some
level you believe these words to be true.
That says a lot about who you are.

There is no way around this. To reject *now*
the hate-speech kwnon to be spoken for years because it caught up with the public
yet still embrace the man who so forcefully delivers them is just not credible.

Even if you believe that in 20 years he never ever heard these sermons from Wright or form any
of the members of the church;
Obama is on record (NYT, RS, Chicago press) to be aware of these sermons were known to the people for at least a year. There are even YouTubes videos of these form a year ago.

In 2006, Obama donated $22,500 to Wright's church : that was single largest chariatble donation Obama has ever made. This was for the same year in which Jeremiah Wright gave that famous sermon claiming that the
"government created AIDS to infect and kill black people" among other hateful things about the US. He delievered it at the Andrew Rankin Memorial Chapel in Washington on Jan. 15, 2006.
That speech was widley known: I knew about it. And Obama didn't?

It is disgusting at ever level. To say that this
is typical of balck churches is an insult to the african american community.

Posted by Rodn | March 16, 2008 4:47 PM

obama is done. Its very saddening to see all the hopes i had on him and for our country crumble like this. I really dont think he can recover from the wright controversy. It will be hell of a long time before I get enthusiasm in politics again.

Posted by sandy | March 16, 2008 4:50 PM

Good for the Church. Why shouldn't a black minister, channelling the historic misery his people have endured at the hands of an oppressor, cry foul on America? American hasn't been all good for black people, to say the least. The rabbis I know don't have a lot of nice things to say about the oppressors of the Jews. But anyway, it's all beside the point. Obama doesn't espouse this stuff, has no history of espousing it, and doesn't show any signs of espousing it in the future. So unless we're going to get McCarthyite, who cares? This is a take down effort, pure and simple. Since they can't find anything to terrible about the candidate, they go after people who know the candidate. It's pathetic, and a responsible press should say as much.

Posted by alex | March 16, 2008 4:50 PM

These right-wing trolls are hilarious. Yeah, Obama should totally resign over remarks everyone has known about for years and he's denounced many times in the past just because the right-wing noise machine decided to put them on infinite loop this week.

You know what I think, McCain should resign as a senator and drop out of the race after enthusiastically accepting the endorsement of Rev. Hagee, a nutjob who believes all Catholics are evil and who provides material support to those trying to start an Arab-Israeli war. Agree or disagree?

Posted by John M. | March 16, 2008 4:54 PM

McCain also called preacher Rod Parsley a "spiritual guide." Parsley has said the following:

"I cannot tell you how important it is that we understand the true nature of Islam, that we see it for what it really is. In fact, I will tell you this: I do not believe our country can truly fulfill its divine purpose until we understand our historical conflict with Islam. I know that this statement sounds extreme, but I do not shrink from its implications. The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed, and I believe September 11, 2001, was a generational call to arms that we can no longer ignore."

This is not insane, how?

Posted by John M. | March 16, 2008 5:00 PM

Alex,

Mostly I agree with you, but I wanted to play devil's advocate for a minute about your "who cares?" I think it's clear as day that Obama has taken to heart the aspirational message of his church and left behind the anger and disappointment of the previous generation; as you say, there's no reason to imagine he's been hiding some militant agenda. But on the other hand, if I had reason to believe that Wright's sermons always sounded like the clips we've all heard or read about, and not just that they were the most incendiary 3 minutes Fox News could find from among all the footage they combed through, and if I knew that they represented the primary message of the church a candidate had attended for twenty years, I think it would be fair to assume he shared some of those feelings. So to me, it's important to put Wright in context as well as to make sure we remember that he is not the one on the ballot.

Posted by professordarkheart | March 16, 2008 5:01 PM

The funniest part is the faux outrage. These goofballs keep saying, "OK, this is it, guys. This is really it. Obama's finished now. It's over. The Wright thing is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life and an affront human decency everywhere. The guy should be quarantined. No, listen, give up, ask for your money back, throw out your buttons. Trust me, I'm coming to this with an open mind, I would have liked Obama to win, but this, THIS? No, forget it, it's over."

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Posted by alex | March 16, 2008 5:03 PM

20 years of preaching and Obama says it's news to him! I think Obama's "chickens are coming to roost." However all the starry eyed reporters and leftist Democrats want to put a positive spin on this, it just "ain't" going to work. Not even a good try. If a candidate's preacher belched forth this hate but was exactly opposite in political persuasion (that is a white man saying lies and hate about blacks) this would be the end of a political career for that candidate. It should also be the end for Obama. Now, I really wonder about his explanations about not saluting during the national anthem and his decision not to wear an American flag lapel pin, don't you?

I don't even need to get into Wright's Zionist (can you spell anti-Semitic?) ranting.

Posted by Mike | March 16, 2008 5:06 PM

Mike,

Have you read the rest of the thread? You should find all the deprogramming you need there.

Posted by professordarkheart | March 16, 2008 5:09 PM

Obama named his principal literary work after a phrase uttered by the racist preacher. This man has obviously been central to Obama's coming of age, and his maturation as a public figure. Most Americans will recoil at the prospect of electing as our president an acolyte of this racist, extremist, America-hating rabble rouser.

Posted by Maximom | March 16, 2008 5:13 PM

Professor darkheart,

Your point is well taken. I would add that context cuts a few ways. We should also consider, for example, the context in which this Fox article appeared, less than an hour after Olbermann's Special Comment in which he forcefully denounced the Clinton campaign's unfortunate pattern of allowing race to insinuate itself into the conversation about the candidates. Someone was clearly trying to create a reply to the Olbermann piece. And without question, the overwhelming need to find something incriminating in Obama's history colored the reporter's interpretation and presentation of the minister's comments.

Posted by alex | March 16, 2008 5:13 PM

All this stuff about Wright has been out there a long time. If Obama is "surprised" by it, he is either hopelessly naive, stone deaf, or lying through his teeth.

Posted by robert ethan | March 16, 2008 5:16 PM

As an Obama supporter, I too was dismayed at the repeated showings of clips of Pastor Wright's speeches/sermons. I have set about learning more. So far I have reviewed the sermon of Dec. 25, 2007 where the clip seems to indicate he was attacking Hillary Clinton. Even though I am an outsider (62 y/o white female), it was evident to me that these remarks, which were at the end of his sermon, were directed to black people (or African American, if you prefer), who distrusted Obama as he was not "black enough". Remember that this sermon was given before the first primary when many black people were still unsure of Obama and were supporters of Hilary Clinton. The pastor was reminding them that Obama, as a black man, would have to have had experiences that Hillary Clinton as a white woman would not have had and so how could people think he wasn't "black enough". And Hillary would never get asked if she was black enough (his final comment). He didn't say anything about who should vote for who, only that black people should not judge Obama on the basis of whether or not he was "black enough".
This is not to say that there weren't other remarks in the sermon that could make white people uncomfortable. He certainly talks about "rich white people" being in control of things. But there is some truth in that! But basically the sermon is about recognizing the black experience and being proud of one's accomplishments, whether or not one is black. ( He certainly was proud of the black lawyer in the 3 inch heels and fur coat. She had made it, despite being black. So yes, he is still rooted in the experiences of his youth and all that means to us today. But hatefull--no, I didn't see that at all.

Posted by dblue | March 16, 2008 5:19 PM

My sense on Jeremiah Wright is that there is a lot of good, a lot of talent in the man - as well as Leftist crap and being someone that panders to the black racism of his audience.

If you want blame, it has to start with the people that truly shaped black attitudes and class resentments. Who made anti-Americanism and identity politics and victimization "the" thing black intellectuals did. That would be the communist Jews that set up the NAACP and other "Fronts" mainly as black grievance vehicles they would control behind the scenes. And black socialists like WEB Dubois, nourished by the Euro and NYC crowd - who wanted government-forced equality in all spheres. They won against the forces that emphasized self-reliance, and had created booming black metropolitan areas. That was the "self-education, hard work, family stability, and Uplift will come Naturally" approach of Booker T Washington and that school of thought.

Jeremiah Wright is a man of great achievements. Probably 95-98% of what he has done with his life is for the good. Juxtipose him with Billy Graham - who you can say was a force for huge good but if you look at his associations and sermons you can pull out some anti-semitism, toadying up to corporate wealth, groveling obsequiousness to the "greatness" of Presidents he pal'ed around with, like LJB and Nixon. Or Saint Martin, Himself. Whose quite odious side is discretely buried from view with his elevation to part-diety and perfect man and Greatest Head Negro, ever.

Wright was an accomplished scholar, with grad degrees not just in theology, but English. He has written 5 well-received books. He is a better-educated and smarter Mike Huckabee. He served with distinction in the Marines before becoming a preacher. Shifting from a GI to be a medical corpsman and the Valedictorian of his 1963 Marine medic class.

Along the way, he found himself preaching to an audience of grievance-nourishing blacks and tailored himself to that audience. Part of that is the recent black history where blacks fought for and got self-determination of the black civil rights movement and political control of black voters away from the control and manipulation of Jewish Leftists.

For the past, Jews are especially unpopular nationwide with african-americans..well-meaning in some ways, but guilty of economic exploitation of blacks and emasculating them, politically. Wright's preaching reflects that - but clings to the Leftist boilerplate that blacks were taught by Jewish communists leading the NAACP, SCLC, etc.

His anti-Iraq war Q&A is standard Lefty speak:

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2003/Iraq-IQ-Test-Wright23feb03.htm

For Obama, his problem is not Wright so much as all these associations with Left-radicals in his past that keep coming up, along with an extreme liberal voting record and lack of bipartisanship that suggests he is more like Jesse Jackson than a "person who transcends all race and petty politics". They keep popping up.

1. Wright is not like Mike Huckabee getting an endorsement from a Fundie Whacko he doesn't know. Obama knew Wright for 20 years after Michelle led him there, and called Wright a huge inspiration to him and his family. If he is to be believed, he knew nothing about some of Wright's views for 20 years, but listened enough to somehow be "transformed" and to show Wright's influence in the 2 books he wrote.

2.His "speech of superior judgment" turns out to be done at the direct request of a radical Jewish ex-SDS member (Marilyn Katz) who was to link Obama up with 4-5 Jewish Mega-Rich donors like Bettelu Saltzman, The Crown Family, Penny Pritzger - and to David Axelrod - all vehemently anti-Iraq war, as was the Mayor and the State's other Senator, Dick Durbin - who Saltzman was chief of staff for earlier.

3. His speech of "superior judgement" was delivered at a Jesse Jackson rally against the racist evil war, attended by 300 hardcore Left and various NOI, Chicago black activists. It was not daring because he was actually helping his re-election chances in his solid Left District and was just what the other Senator was saying and being anti-war opened up millions in funding for his Senate run from radical to liberal wealthy Elites.

3. He writes of his "mentor black" who substituted for his long-gone Biodaddy who turns out to be a flaming communist with a big FBI file.

4. We find out that Obama used NOI officers as part of campaigns. Shakir Mohammed was Obama's community rep in his state Senate campaign. Muslims Cynthia Miller served as his Senate election Treasurer, and Jennifer Mason as his current director of hiring and constituent services.

5. We find his sugar daddy, Tony Resko, didn't contribute 30,000 to Obama's state senate runs, but 150,000. A huge sum. And we find that Resko is partners with Elijah Mohammed's son, made 26 trips to the ME since 2002 for mostly undisclosed "business", and that former Saddam Hussein arms merchant and Iraqi billionaire Hamdi Auchi has apparantly paid for a lot of Obama campaign funding and part of Obama's house via "pass-through" money Resko handled.

6. We find that his mother elected to stay in Indonesia for 30 years after her divorce and only return when she was dying. That while in Indonesia, she made many Leftist, up to - anti-American remarks. Obama in his book described his "discomfort" with a mother with a serious case of jungle fever who sexualized strong black men she saw, while maintaining a rebellion against "white culture and white values."

This idea of going after Obama's pastor was really a dumb idea. Does anyone remember the idea of the separation of church and state? I think we as a nation have lost our moorings.
Posted by Micheline

The only persons who have lost their moorings are silly, vapid people like you devoid of logic who insist there is some magical church-vs.-state separation with religious nutballs like Wright, Phelps, Al Sharpton, Ayatollah Khoumenei, bin Laden and more "accepted" preachers like MLK, Pat Robertson who blend the religious and political.

Posted by chris ford | March 16, 2008 5:20 PM

You know, if I had any doubts about voting for Obama, the inveterate stupidity some of his critics on this thread would promptly cure me of it.

Posted by alex | March 16, 2008 5:20 PM

You know, if I had any hesitation about voting for Obama, the inveterate stupidity some of his critics on this thread would promptly cure me of it.

Posted by alex | March 16, 2008 5:21 PM

My jaw is dropping that anyone on this blog would actually be attempting to defend Wright. His sermons were recorded and are available on YouTube for all to see. Just how stupid do you think people are???

The Church of Christ should have dropped this man 20 years ago and let him join Farrakhan's ministry where he seems to be most at home. Obviously you people totally don't get the harm this is causing and will continue to cause not just for Obama but for any future black candidate for any public office. This (wrongly) validates the secret feelings of ANY white voter who had previously had doubts about voting for Obama based on his race--now all of Middle America can say 'I told you so' and pull the lever against him without a trace of guilt. 'It's the blacks who are the racists, not us.' Don't you get that???? Wright has singlehandedly set the cause of African-Americans back to the 1930s. It's like watching paul Robeson all over again.

Posted by Hope Muntz | March 16, 2008 5:22 PM

Thank you, Hope Muntz, for setting the record straight, I don't know where my moral compass would point without the likes of you, robert ethan, and the rest to adjust it. Phew! I think you're probably right that Wright "has singlehandedly set the cause of African Americans back to the 1930s." That is to say, pre-Civil Rights movement. We'll probably have black people sitting on the back of the bus any day now. I would actually go further and say that the guy is the Anti-Christ, and that Armageddon is nigh. Which is good, because I have a couple library books I'd prefer not to return.

Posted by alex | March 16, 2008 5:30 PM

alex,

Now who's spreading conspiracy theories?

No, just kidding. Yeah, the timing seems pretty suspicious (read: obvious). Actually, Politico is currently running a story about how hard "opponents of Obama" have been pressuring them to run Wright stories for months now. So presumably the news organizations were all hearing from these "opponents" (who could they be?) and had their stories on tap for when they suddenly decided to recycle Wright. Wonder what could have made Fox choose that particular moment?

Posted by professordarkheart | March 16, 2008 5:32 PM

Mike,

To be fair, there's no hard and fast rule about holding one's hand over the heart during the anthem. And Obama has given, I believe, a plausible answer as to why he doesn't wear the lapel.

I think it hurts him politically but he's given an intellectually honest answer as to why he chose not wear it anymore. (It came to be a pro-war symbol in his eyes.)

There is a certain kind of snobbery on the right with regard to being a "real" or "good" American which is evident by listening to talk radio. They congratulate each other over how good of an American they are based on their political views. Think Hannity, Rush, etc.

I still have lingering questions about Obama's patriotism but that's due more to Michelle's opinions and Wright's. I wonder if he really is that far divorced from their attitudes or, properly speaking, what I perceive their attitudes to be.

Posted by Scott | March 16, 2008 5:36 PM

After Reading this tread it's clear that Hillbilly finally found something that is going to stick to Obama. Who cares if it was pumped out of the sewage pipes and is going to not only fracture but also actually destroy a major US political party in the process?

Posted by SC Rose | March 16, 2008 5:37 PM

Cue the scary music and thunder and lightning track. The Repubs and the Clintons are a-scared of Obama!

He's a secret black nationalist Muslim sleaze-machine with ties to al Qaeda and Satan with a Secret Plan to overthrow America with his communist wife, Michelle, when and if a naive population - hypnotized by his rhetorical skills and oceans of Obamamania Kool-aid spiked with Hope and Change - votes him into office.

He MUST NOT be trusted. He has, after all, been a member of the same church for 20 years, where he assumed the posture of a passive idiot and sat in a pew ingesting and tacitly agreeing with the torrents of anti-American propaganda issuing forth from his radical, ex-Marine preacher. You just wait for all the tapes to surface of this pastor's anti-American sermons and all the other church members who will testify THAT OBAMA WAS RIGHT THERE TAKING DICTATION! And even though similar anti-American commentary is not present in anything Obama has ever said, written, or supported, HE WAS THERE AND THAT'S WHAT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT! I predict World Net Daily is ALREADY beginning its thorough AND LEGITIMATE investigation.

And then there is this SLEAZY Rezko character. A developer of low-income housing projects (WINK, WINK - always a first sign of a money-rapacious mercenary), who Obama KNEW FOR 17 YEARS. It doesn't matter that Obama has never been charged with anything - in spite of the Chicago press devoting reams of paper investigating every tedious nuance of their relationship and still coming up with nothing. THIS ISN'T ABOUT FACTS, FOLKS! This is ABOUT HIS CHARACTER! That's right. The candidate of hope and change has been revealed! NEWSMAX IS ON IT - already interviewing people who know people who know people who know people who live in or near Illinois!

AND DON'T YOU TRY TO CALL ME A RACIST, like all you Obamabots are programmed to do whenever you're faced with our half-truths, phony arguments, and excitable!, sky-is-falling!, inflammatory rhetoric! We're onto you people and your boring facts! We've got a candidate to smear and we're not going to let you and your new politics get in the way! No way! And just to prove it, I AM LEAVING MY CAPS LOCK KEY ON UNTIL NOVEMBER!

TAKE THAT!

Posted by nepat | March 16, 2008 5:42 PM

I think you're all a bunch of Chicken Littles with this "he's DOOMED!" talk.

Posted by socctty | March 16, 2008 5:44 PM

Obama keeps saying these "bad judgements" don't reflect a pattern. Not only with Wright, who he was CLOSELY INVOLVED WITH FOR 20 YEARS, without "being aware of his radical views", but also with TONY REZKO who (it now turns out) was A CLOSE FRIEND, (who it now turns out) raised 5 TIMES AS MUCH MONEY FOR OBAMA AS ORIGINALLY ACKNOWLEDGED. It isn't until Obama gets CAUGHT RED HANDED IN HIS LIES (Wright, Rezko, NAFTA) that he RELUCTANTLY TELLS A PARTIAL TRUTH.

It is A PATTERN, and a DEEPLY DI8TURBING PATTERN.

The man is nearly 50 years old, he isn't some pimple faced adolescent who you can give a lecture to and HOPE THAT HE LEARNS FROM IT.

Posted by robert ethan | March 16, 2008 5:44 PM

I don't agree with either but how was Wright's post 9/11 sermon any different than Robertson & Falwell remarks on 9/11? All 3 were using 9/11 to push their own agenda. I think they are all wrong but to be outraged at Wright and not at Falwell & Robertson is just pure hypocrisy. When you wingnuts disavow the religious right, then I'll listen to your opinions on what's un-American.

Comments from the Thursday, September 13, 2001 edition of the '700 Club.'

JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

Posted by Nuff Said McGreavey |