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Craig: No 3:00 am Calls When I Was There

11 Mar 2008 10:35 am

Chicago Center today released a memo by Greg Craig, a former director of policy planning in the state department and one of President Clinton's impeachment lawyers, detailing what Craig calls Hillary Clinton's "exaggerated" claims to have played a "central" role in foreign policy during the Clinton administration. He grants her a large role in domestic policy, but concludes that "[a]s far as the record shows, Senator Clinton never answered the phone either to make a decision on any pressing national security issue – not at 3 AM or at any other time of day."

What's interesting about this whole argument is that some Clinton surrogates -- are arguing about perception, rather than reality. It's the perception that Clinton is tough and Obama is a bambi, rather than the reality, that they say concerns them. Lanny Davis made a version of this argument on CNN last night, much to the incredulity of Jamal Simmons. I can't find the transcript, but I'm sure an enterprising reader can help us out.

Read the full Craig memo after the jump.

o

: Interested Parties

From: Greg Craig, former director, Policy Planning Office, U.S. State Department

RE: Senator Clinton’s claim to be experienced in foreign policy: Just words?

DA: March 11, 2008

When your entire campaign is based upon a claim of experience, it is important that you have evidence to support that claim. Hillary Clinton’s argument that she has passed “the Commander- in-Chief test” is simply not supported by her record.

There is no doubt that Hillary Clinton played an important domestic policy role when she was First Lady. It is well known, for example, that she led the failed effort to pass universal health insurance. There is no reason to believe, however, that she was a key player in foreign policy at any time during the Clinton Administration. She did not sit in on National Security Council meetings. She did not have a security clearance. She did not attend meetings in the Situation Room. She did not manage any part of the national security bureaucracy, nor did she have her own national security staff. She did not do any heavy-lifting with foreign governments, whether they were friendly or not. She never managed a foreign policy crisis, and there is no evidence to suggest that she participated in the decision-making that occurred in connection with any such crisis. As far as the record shows, Senator Clinton never answered the phone either to make a decision on any pressing national security issue – not at 3 AM or at any other time of day.

When asked to describe her experience, Senator Clinton has cited a handful of international incidents where she says she played a central role. But any fair-minded and objective judge of these claims – i.e., by someone not affiliated with the Clinton campaign – would conclude that Senator Clinton’s claims of foreign policy experience are exaggerated.

Northern Ireland:

Senator Clinton has said, “I helped to bring peace to Northern Ireland.” It is a gross overstatement of the facts for her to claim even partial credit for bringing peace to Northern Ireland. She did travel to Northern Ireland, it is true. First Ladies often travel to places that are a focus of U.S. foreign policy. But at no time did she play any role in the critical negotiations that ultimately produced the peace. As the Associated Press recently reported, “[S]he was not directly involved in negotiating the Good Friday peace accord.” With regard to her main claim that she helped bring women together, she did participate in a meeting with women, but, according to those who know best, she did not play a pivotal role. The person in charge of the negotiations, former Senator George Mitchell, said that “[The First Lady] was one of many people who participated in encouraging women to get involved, not the only one.”

News of Senator Clinton’s claims has raised eyebrows across the ocean. Her reference to an important meeting at the Belfast town hall was debunked. Her only appearance at the Belfast City Hall was to see Christmas lights turned on. She also attended a 50-minute meeting which, according to the Belfast Daily Telegraph’s report at the time, “[was] a little bit stilted, a little prepared at times." Brian Feeney, an Irish author and former politician, sums it up: “The road to peace was carefully documented, and she wasn’t on it.”

Bosnia:

Senator Clinton has pointed to a March 1996 trip to Bosnia as proof that her foreign travel involved a life-risking mission into a war zone. She has described dodging sniper fire. While she did travel to Bosnia in March 1996, the visit was not a high-stakes mission to a war zone. On March 26, 1996, the New York Times reported that “Hillary Rodham Clinton charmed American troops at a U.S.O. show here, but it didn’t hurt that the singer Sheryl Crow and the comedian Sinbad were also on the stage.”

Kosovo:

Senator Clinton has said, “I negotiated open borders to let fleeing refugees into safety from Kosovo.” It is true that, as First Lady, she traveled to Macedonia and visited a Kosovar refugee camp. It is also true that she met with government officials while she was there. First Ladies frequently meet with government officials. Her claim to have “negotiated open borders to let fleeing refugees into safety from Kosovo,” however, is not true. Her trip to Macedonia took place on May 14, 1999. The borders were opened the day before, on May 13, 1999.

The negotiations that led to the opening of the borders were accomplished by the people who ordinarily conduct negotiations with foreign governments – U.S. diplomats. President Clinton’s top envoy to the Balkans, former Ambassador Robert Gelbard, said, “I cannot recall any involvement by Senator Clinton in this issue.” Ivo Daalder worked on the Clinton Administration’s National Security Council and wrote a definitive history of the Kosovo conflict. He recalls that “she had absolutely no role in the dirty work of negotiations.”

Rwanda:

Last year, former President Clinton asserted that his wife pressed him to intervene with U.S. troops to stop the Rwandan genocide. When asked about this assertion, Hillary Clinton said it was true. There is no evidence, however, to suggest that this ever happened. Even those individuals who were advocating a much more robust U.S. effort to stop the genocide did not argue for the use of U.S. troops. No one recalls hearing that Hillary Clinton had any interest in this course of action. Based on a fair and thorough review of National Security Council deliberations during those tragic months, there is no evidence to suggest that U.S. military intervention was ever discussed. Prudence Bushnell, the Assistant Secretary of State with responsibility for Africa, has recalled that there was no consideration of U.S. military intervention.

At no time prior to her campaign for the presidency did Senator Clinton ever make the claim that she supported intervening militarily to stop the Rwandan genocide. It is noteworthy that she failed to mention this anecdote – urging President Clinton to intervene militarily in Rwanda – in her memoirs. President Clinton makes no mention of such a conversation with his wife in his memoirs. And Madeline Albright, who was Ambassador to the United Nations at the time, makes no mention of any such event in her memoirs.

Hillary Clinton did visit Rwanda in March 1998 and, during that visit, her husband apologized for America’s failure to do more to prevent the genocide.

China

Senator Clinton also points to a speech that she delivered in Beijing in 1995 as proof of her ability to answer a 3 AM crisis phone call. It is strange that Senator Clinton would base her own foreign policy experience on a speech that she gave over a decade ago, since she so frequently belittles Barack Obama’s speeches opposing the Iraq War six years ago. Let there be no doubt: she gave a good speech in Beijing, and she stood up for women’s rights. But Senator Obama’s opposition to the War in Iraq in 2002 is relevant to the question of whether he, as Commander-in-Chief, will make wise judgments about the use of military force. Senator Clinton’s speech in Beijing is not.

Senator Obama’s speech opposing the war in Iraq shows independence and courage as well as good judgment. In the speech that Senator Clinton says does not qualify him to be Commander in Chief, Obama criticized what he called “a rash war . . . a war based not on reason, but on passion, not on principle, but on politics.” In that speech, he said prophetically: “[E]ven a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences.” He predicted that a U.S. invasion of Iraq would “fan the flames of the Middle East,” and “strengthen the recruitment arm of al Qaeda.” He urged the United States first to “finish the fight with Bin Laden and al Qaeda.”

If the U.S. government had followed Barack Obama’s advice in 2002, we would have avoided one of the greatest foreign policy catastrophes in our nation’s history. Some of the most “experienced” men in national security affairs – Vice President Cheney and Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and others – led this nation into that catastrophe. That lesson should teach us something about the value of judgment over experience. Longevity in Washington, D.C. does not guarantee either wisdom of judgment.

Conclusion:

The Clinton campaign’s argument is nothing more than mere assertion, dramatized in a scary television commercial with a telephone ringing in the middle of the night. There is no support for or substance in the claim that Senator Clinton has passed “the Commander-in-Chief test.” That claim – as the TV ad – consists of nothing more than making the assertion, repeating it frequently to the voters and hoping that they will believe it.

On the most critical foreign policy judgment of our generation – the War in Iraq – Senator Clinton voted in support of a resolution entitled “The Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of U.S. Military Force Against Iraq.” As she cast that vote, she said: “This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.” In this campaign, Senator Clinton has argued – remarkably – that she wasn’t actually voting for war, she was voting for diplomacy. That claim is no more credible than her other claims of foreign policy experience. The real tragedy is that we are still living with the terrible consequences of her misjudgment. The Bush Administration continues to cite that resolution as its authorization – like a blank check – to fight on with no end in sight.

Barack Obama has a very simple case. On the most important commander in chief test of our generation, he got it right, and Senator Clinton got it wrong. In truth, Senator Obama has much more foreign policy experience than either Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan had when they were elected. Senator Obama has worked to confront 21st century challenges like proliferation and genocide on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He possesses the personal attributes of a great leader – an even temperament, an open-minded approach to even the most challenging problems, a willingness to listen to all views, clarity of vision, the ability to inspire, conviction and courage.

And Barack Obama does not use false charges and exaggerated claims to play politics with national security.

Comments (103)

And it's not just foreign policy. There are also statements Hillary Clinton's made on her domestic policy involvement that don't stand up.

For example, a story I read over the weekend showed that she claims that she was part of getting the Family and Medical Leave Act passed, yet this was legislation that Congress decided to re-pass two weeks before Bill Clinton took office. The bill had been passed twice under President George H.W. Bush but then was vetoed. Yet Hillary Clinton and some of her surrogates present this as part of her efforts on behalf of women and families.

Here is the story: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/9/111930/6389/50/472849

I look forward to thorough vetting of Senator Clinton's statements about her experience in the White House, as well as information to be gleaned from the White House papers.

"liberal media" credo: If an obama supporter says it it must be true

Yeah ambinder 'forgot' to mention craig is a big time supporter of obama. Not just a supporter but yet another say anything supporter. See: power, goolsbee,rice, bradley and the rest of long list of hate filled loud mouths obama embraces and the "liberal media" lap up.

Debunking the "liberal medias" Irish smear:

Hillary's Irish Legacy

"I am quite surprised that anyone would suggest that Hillary Clinton did not perform important foreign policy work as first lady. I can state from firsthand experience that she played a positive role for over a decade in helping to bring peace to Northern Ireland," said former SDLP leader and Nobel laureate John Hume is a statement responding to critical press reports.
...
Similar testimonies have been forthcoming from other women, Protestant and Catholic. They include prominent community worker Elaine Crozier, Baroness May Blood, a member of the British House of Lords, Geraldine McAteer, chief executive of the West Belfast Partnership Board, Avila Kilmurray, head of the Community Foundation for Northern Ireland, Patricia Lewsley, former member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and currently Commissioner for Children and Young People, and Joanna McVey, former CEO of the Fermanagh-published Impartial Reporter newspaper and chair of the Fermanagh Trust.
http://www.irishecho.com/search/searchstory.cfm?id=18626&issueid=563

Hillary is a fraud!

Hillary is a fraud!

Hillary is a fraud!

Many insist on totally discounting the experience that comes with politically supporting a person for 26 years, while having one's own legal career and non-profit work. I'm sure many women (particularly of previous generations)would be surprised to learn that experience garnered in steadfast and loyal support of their spouses does not count as experience at all. It doesn't matter Hillary Clinton orchestrated Bill Clinton's 1982 comeback to the governor's mansion along with Dick Morris, or that she led Arkansas task force on educational standards, or chaired the Legal Services Corporation, or that she was a de facto chief strategist through much of his career and key staffer in the White House. None of that matters, we are told, because she was married to Bill. It's all really *his* experience.

This is like the difference between paid and unpaid work. If a man goes to work in a factory 9-5, 5 days a week, that's called work and he's paid for it. If a woman raises three kids at home, does all the house work, plans all the activities, does all the cooking, that's not work and it's worth zero.

This is just the political corollary to that injustice.

Is this the transcript you were looking for?
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/10/acd.01.html

Ouch. That's some rather poignant examples that go right at the Clinton experience claims.

Mark, here's the video of the Lanny Davis moment on CNN from last night:
http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=2053308919

The perception is that Clinton is willing to make false or at best exaggerated claims to convince people to vote for her. Hoy shit, who does that remain you of?

Tim K, your logic is...illogical. She has experience, yes. Presidential experience, no. Can you spot the difference?

"It doesn't matter Hillary Clinton orchestrated Bill Clinton's 1982 comeback to the governor's mansion along with Dick Morris"
Considering Dick Morris is currently one of Hillary's most outspoken detractors, I wouldn't bring that up. Anyway, if I suggest hiring a doctor, that doesn't make ME a doctor.

"Arkansas task force on educational standards"
Out of the 50 states, Arkansas has remained pretty low, so I don't see the evidence of her 'accomplishments' there:
http://www.statemaster.com/state/AR-arkansas/edu-education

(I don't know about the Legal Services Corporation - I expect others do.)

"de facto chief strategist through much of his career and key staffer in the White House"
LOL - just look at how she's running her own campaign! And compare that to Obama's campaign:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/us/politics/10clinton.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/obamamachineryofhope

Why should the media report on what the candidates are saying on the issues when we can focus on the name-calling of their surrogates?

So Tim K, Nancy Reagan and Laura Bush are experienced enough to be President? Cindy McCain?

"she played a positive role for over a decade in helping to bring peace to Northern Ireland" - That's a pretty lukewarm endorsement of her role.

Lots and lots of people played positive roles - street sweepers, book keepers even other First Ladies- that doesn't mean that they have foreign policy expertise and experience.

Now if he has said "important role" that might of meant something, but this....I don't think so, sounds like he was doing a friend a favor, not really making much of a statement.

The problem with Clinton is that she's not a particularly honest person and part of her dishonest is unintentional. She overestimates what she "knows" because she truly cannot recognize distinctions between:
--persecution, criticism, and opposition
--Bush/Rove, Clinton/Penn, Obama/Axelrod
--necessary wars and dumb wars
--a good idea and a really bad idea
--a mandate to buy health care and universal access
--a real chance of winning in November and a pipe dream.

She's kind of like Bush with a twist.
Kind of dense and easily exploited by crafty people whispering in her ear (Rumsfeld, Rove, Penn, Bill, Carville ...).
But she's incredibly booksmart so many people think we'll get a much better result.

I doubt it.

HRC was really tough to take a stand against the war in Iraq and the march to war in Iran. Wait a second...

Despite HRC claims that she's full "vetted" we're finally seeing her experience as first lady being scrutinized for relevance.

Remember, Hillary started off with "35 years of experience" and now she's being whittled down to a senator with 7 years experience.

I think a similar vetting will occur with McCain to the extent that we have a choice among three career legislators to be an executive. Which former legislator do you want to be the executive?

An interesting side note that is a sittling legislator has not been selected Pres since JFK. It may be a coincidence, but given the damage GWB has done to balance of powers through his nutty Unitary Executive, it seems the American people are consciously or unconsciously wanting to restore that balance, by choosing a Pres has respect for separation of powers.

Many insist on totally discounting the experience that comes with politically supporting a person for 26 years...blah blah blah...This is just the political corollary to that injustice.

Posted by Tim K | March 11, 2008 11:01 AM

Here we go again with the passive-aggressive victim complex. Hello! Obama is defending himself against Clinton's attack, which claims that Obama's 20 years of experience as a community organizer, constitutional law instructor, law review editor, lawyer, and state senator, don't count. Obama never said that her experience as a spouse doesn't count; it is she who said the inverse about his.

How Clinton supporters can live with themselves and their bankrupt, fraudulent arguments is beyond me.

Sinbad is well aware of the important work Hillary Clinton did in Bosnia.

Sinbad would also like to point out that the issue is not that Hillary Clinton was ineffective or failed to play an integral role in forming domestic policy during his husband's administration. Certainly more than other recent wives of presidents, HRC was quite actively involved. She should be given credit for trying to be so involved in ways that far exceed that of other president's wives. The issue, as Sinbad sees it, is a pattern of blatant exaggeration and taking credit where credit is not due.

Sinbad predicts that the FMLA will be the next issue taken up by the Obama campaign and Obama surrogates as something that Hillary took credit for but for which her role was quite insignificant.

Clinton/Sinbad '08 - 35 years of resume-padding!

I look away, or change the channel, whenever Lanny Davis comes on TV. He is the most outrageous surrogate left in this campaign. He lies while he peddles the spin of the day with total gusto, manipulation and triangulation. At least with T. Macauliff, what you see is what you get--master spinmiester--but Lanny is drenched in back room cigar smoke--anything goes. Its ugly and one more reason I don't want these talking heads on my TV for the next eight years.

I see Fred Agbot hasn't posted yet. This thread is worthless without his input, so I respectfully offer my take on his take of this memo:

This is excellent news, for Hillary! Simply reading the memo will remind voters of the in-depth role she played during the first Clinton co-presidency.

Note the following:

"There is no doubt that Hillary Clinton played an important ... policy role when she was First Lady."

"She did travel to Northern Ireland, it is true. First Ladies often travel to places that are a focus of U.S. foreign policy."

"On March 26, 1996, the New York Times reported that 'Hillary Rodham Clinton charmed American troops at a U.S.O. show here, but it didn’t hurt that the singer Sheryl Crow and the comedian Sinbad were also on the stage.'"

"It is true that, as First Lady, she traveled to Macedonia and visited a Kosovar refugee camp. It is also true that she met with government officials while she was there. First Ladies frequently meet with government officials."

Kosovo, Northern Ireland, China, Rwanda... voters will be reminded of the First Lady's important policy role in these global hotspots. Michelle Obama doesn't even have this kind of experience, having known no other job than that of a corporate lawyer.

When Hillary outperforms expectations today in Mississippi and closes the momentary gap that opened in Wyoming, it will be proof positive that she is prepared to close the delegate gap over these final days of the campaign. Obama will regret having spurned her generous offer to the vice presidency!

Hillary '08!

The Clintons like to get inside peoples head- they throw out negative conflicting statements, when there is a pushback, they question you as to whether you could possibly be hearing one of them right. It's never something they have said- it's always a problem with your perceptions with what they have said. They are masters at it.

The question is whether the voters are sick of the game.

I think they are and by April 22nd there will be complete Clinton Fatigue - Obama may just win Penn. after all.

Okay, well since people see fit to denigrate every thing Hillary Clinton has ever done in her life I'd be happy to turn the favour.

Barack Obama's first foray into elected office was winning an uncontested primary in a safe Democratic state senate seat in Chicago. He disqualified his competitors by hiring a Harvard educated election lawyer to challenge their signatures. That was Barack's first demonstration of his inspiring New Politics, I can only assume.

He then proceeded in 6 years of an undistinguished state senate career, where his only noteworthy accomplishment was losing badly to Congressmen Bobby Rush in a primary.

After the Illinois Democrats took the state senate in 2002 Barack was able to build up a legislative record in a single year with the help of the Democratic leader in that chamber who hand-picked him to make him a star.

Oh, and he made a speech against the Iraq war.

That's his great claim to experience.

Do the research, it's all true.

Any neutral observer knows that FMLA was Chris Dodd's work, and that he deserves the credit for it. Hillary's just like an annoying grade-grubber who steals someone else's homework to make her A.

""she played a positive role for over a decade in helping to bring peace to Northern Ireland" - That's a pretty lukewarm endorsement of her role.

Posted by C.B. Todd"

Here is the first part of the quote from Nobel laureate John Hume you forgot to include:

"I am quite surprised that anyone would suggest that Hillary Clinton did not perform important foreign policy work as first lady. I can state from firsthand experience that she played a positive role for over a decade in helping to bring peace to Northern Ireland,"

So we have a Nobel laureate praising Hillary's work in NI and then we have you.

Tim K, follow me closely here:

Obama argues his case on the basis of judgment

Clinton argues her case on the basis of experience

Now, do you understand the difference between these two cases, or shall we start working through what long words mean for you?

Tim K, if you are going to make claims like that, proof might be a good idea. Perhaps links to your sources?

hadenough - Yes he is personally surprised that people have come up with these questions about whether she has played an important role - but so what? The Clintons are surprised that so many people don't like her.

People are surprised by lots of things for lots of reasons. Most of them their own fault. But when the moment came to actually describe her role she played the only adjective he could come up with was "positive". Not impressive.

adamselznick:

Your patronizing attitude aside, Barack Obama argues his case on judgment because he doesn't really have any experience. A candidate doesn't get to choose on what basis he will be judged. That's kind of like applying for a loan but telling the bank "I know I have lousy credit but I'd like to be judged on my income alone." It doesn't work that way.

The best analogy I've heard for this so far:

Claiming Hillary Clinton has executive experience is like claiming Yoko Ono was a Beatle.

Tim, I sincerely mean no offense, but I don't think you should be lecturing people on patronizing attitudes.

Lectures on patronizing attitudes aside, there's a real simple, obvious flip side to that coin:

Hillary Clinton argues her case on experience because she doesn't really have any judgment. A candidate doesn't get to choose on what basis he will be judged. That's kind of like applying for a loan but telling the bank "I know I have no discernible income stream but I'd like to be judged on my credit alone." It doesn't work that way.

I see that Tim K really doesn't understand simple sentences or clear arguments. But then, he does shill for the candidate of parseltongue, voter suppression, missing records, undisclosed tax forms and fabricated experience. No attempts to pick and choose there, eh, Timbo?


When I first read the headline, the first thought was that it said....

"[Larry] Craig: No 3am calls when I was there"

Uh, Tim, I don't think those first two links say what you think they say. They don't exactly bolster your argument.

I regret, however, to say I couldn't make it through the third link as I was distracted by the ad to the side of the article offering a handsome Ronald Reagan t-shirt that I simply had to have.

Jeff:

If people are going to get rude with me, I'm going to get rude right back. If you have a problem with that, I really couldn't care less.

How is it that Hillary Clinton "has no judgment." That's an absurd claim with no basis in fact.

Oh, wait, let me guess. THE WAR IN IRAQ.

Tim K doesn't want to provide sources because that would allow everyone to learn "the rest of the story". As in that ridiculous comment he made about Obama's first primary run. Talk about leaving out all the important details. No wonder Tim's a Clinton supporter! Birds of a feather....

Well, and Hillarycare. And the way she's managed her campaign (an organization that is a small fraction of the size and complexity of the federal government). Then I could say something about working for the "little guy" while on Wal-Mart's board. Or mercilessly attacking the credibility of the women who claimed to have had sex with her husband. I feel like those speak to "judgment," but something tells me you'd blindly disagree.

Jeff:


Blindly disagree? News flash: Disagreeing with Jeffrey Larson doesn't make somebody blind.

I get it, you have a man crush on Barack Obama. I understand. There's a desire on the part of a lot of heterosexual men to be dominated by the Alpha Male. It's less threatening to their ego than a strong and accomplished woman.

No, I really didn't want to go there but I'm really getting tired of your crap.

Lord Trimble of Lisnagarvey, the Nobel Peace Prize winner says NAH
Hillary Clinton had no direct role in bringing peace to Northern Ireland and is a "wee bit silly" for exaggerating the part she played, according to Lord Trimble of Lisnagarvey, the Nobel Peace Prize winner and former First Minister of the province.
AND
Steven King, a negotiator with Lord Trimble’s Ulster Unionist Party, argued that Mrs Clinton might even have helped delay the chances of peace. "She was invited along to some pre-arranged meetings but I don’t think she exactly brought anybody together that hadn’t been brought together already," he said. Mrs Clinton was "a cheerleader for the Irish republican side of the argument", he added.

LOL! Looks like I touched a nerve. Thanks for snapping -- now I know I can safely ignore all your future posts ;)

Jeff:

Please do. It's not like you ever truly listened anyways.

I wouldn't start talking about domination Tim, you're the one who keeps coming back here for beatings from anonymous males.

What Jeff said. As an Obama supporter, I urge everyone to read Tim's links. Especially the first two. The third was written in right-wingese by Guy Benson. Here's his bio, from his website:

"Guy's resume in media and politics features internships at the White House-during the second term of President George W. Bush-as well as Fox News Channel in New York City. At Fox News, Guy assisted with show preparation, research, editing, and guest relations at the primetime show Hannity and Colmes. He also worked for the cable network at the 2004 Republican National Convention. Guy was an on-air reporter at an NPR affiliate in South Florida in 2006 and is an occasional contributor to National Review Online's "blog row." He appears regularly on the nationally-syndicated Hugh Hewitt radio show. An avid sports fan, Guy has also covered Big Ten college athletics and Cape Cod League baseball during his on-air career."

An avid sports fan, Guy has also covered Big Ten college athletics and Cape Cod League baseball during his on-air career.

Is it just me, or does that grouping strike anyone else as kind of insulting?

If I were the Cape Cod League, I'd be pissed right about now.

"Troll III: Tim K does Blogland."

Now a major motion picture at cinemas near you. Starring Danny DeVito as Tim K, a short, grumpy welfare queen with masochistic tastes and limitless credulity, who sees the chance for fame and fortune in the wider world of blogs. Watch as this hilarious creature stumbles and bumbles through 90 minutes of non-stop comedy.

adam selznick:

Well, that's kind of funny.

Still sounds better than being a sycophant for Barack Obama amongst a seemingly limitless cabal of Obama sycophants.

Viewers, do not adjust your TV sets. The strange sound you hear and the distorted grey tones are due to the Tim K effect. Do not be concerned - the effect is transitory and does no permanent harm. Just apply a little cleansing lotion to the screen, and you will find the situation is resolved.

Limitless cabal is somewhat contradictory.

Perhaps he's just popular?

And yes, there are lots of Obama sycophants, but you're certainly a Clinton sycophant.

Come out Tim, it's ok.

I can see we are slowly educating Tim K. He now aspires to be an Obama sycophant. Given time and the right training, I foresee his rehabilitation into polite society.

James:

What do you mean by "come out"?

(I'm not a sycophant for Clinton... I am under no illusions about them and their foibles and past mistakes. I don't think they are perfect and I don't agree with everything they have said or done. Unfortunately the tenor of these discussions does not allow me to present a nuanced view on either candidate)

Shorter Tim K:

It ain't my fault. They forced me into my role as Clinton's left-buttock cleanser. I have no free will, and was compelled to repeat a rancid Clintonian slop against my better judgment *sob*.

Grow up, Tim - you could have presented a mature argument in decent English any time you liked. No-one made you into a babbling troll, and no-one forces you to stay that way.

"People are surprised by lots of things for lots of reasons. Most of them their own fault.

Posted by C.B. Todd"

If mental gymnastics were an Olympic sport...

And you think it’s Hillary's fault ambinder and the rest of the "liberal media" trash the Clintons? Like it’s the Clinton’s own fault the “liberal media” never met a Clinton lie they wouldn’t push. Well you would probably think it’s A OK for ambinder to copy and pasting a big time obama supporter without mentioning he is a big time obama.

hadenough, if Ambinder were a big Obama, he'd have many more readers and a lead in delegates, states won and the popular vote.

Ignoring hadenough's intermittent spasms and moans, this thread reads like an intervention.

Tim K's Intervention Thread.

Tim, what's germane to the discussion is whether or not what Clinton is saying and claiming is actually true. She's made an affirmative case based on a number of claims, and determining whether those claims are true is not an "attack". For the most part, she appears to be stretching her role, and that's being charitable.

Well interventions are usually with people the subject loves and respects, not people he thinks are beneath contempt. And my opinion of some people here couldn't be any lower.

justinb:

I don't agree with you that she is stretching her role. Whether or not it is true, my question to you is: how can you be supporting a candidate who doesn't have a record of experience to stretch?

The mind boggles at the connection between Tim K and hadenough's intermittent moans and spasms. How terribly Clintonian they sound.

Tim K said:

"He disqualified his competitors by hiring a Harvard educated election lawyer to challenge their signatures. That was Barack's first demonstration of his inspiring New Politics, I can only assume."

Tim, I read this differently than you do. Admittedly, I'm an Obama supporter but I've often been very critical of him at times as well. But in this situation, I think what he did was laudable.

Understand this: the politicians that Obama had "disqualified" were using fake signatures to get their names on the ballots. They were being re-elected, year upon year, by having their names on ballots based on phony names and addresses of people they claimed were constituents.

This happens all the time, especially in urban areas where machine politics keeps elected officials in office for years -- they resort to underhanded methods of staying in office.

Obama was told, "wait your turn, you can't beat these entrenched politicians." but what he knew, or discovered, was, these politicians were defrauding the people of their district and thus were acting dishonorably.

I consider this effort by Obama the first indication of his reform minded approach to politics--throw out the corrupt politicians.

Now, people can go back and forth on whether Obama's experience in Illinois is legitimate.

But here is my point: Hillary is trying to blur the lines here and claim credit for things she simply didnt do. It's deceptive and reflective of how she approaches politics.

Now, the NYTimes just ran its piece on Obama's time in the Senate, on balance, a pretty fair assessment.

** Please, ANYONE, link to a similar article that has as thoroughly covered HRC's time in the Senate, OR, her time as first lady, through as critical a lens. The Chicago Trib article was a start, but that was foreign policy. I want a side by side comparison of their legislative accomplishments by a major media outlet. I've been waiting for it for over a year. all the while, HRC has told the world that she has massive "experience."

What is it? Can anyone in the MSM analyze it?

The only thing that could make this thread more perfect is a real post from Fred Agbot. Where are you, Fred???

Tim K, we appreciate the love, but we really do need to put the nice white coat back on you now.

I'd really like to hear from John Hume exactly what "positive role" Hillary played. "Positive role?" That could mean just about anything. Until I get some more specifics, I'm going to assume that it means exactly nothing.

A highlight from the CNN piece, as the moderator tries to get them to move on: "Well, [Davis is] paying attention to the polls, and clearly, Jamal is paying attention to the election results."

I'll leave it to the reader to guess which candidate is supported by which surrogate.

Enough:

The "understand this" was a great Barack Obama impersonation. I get so annoyed when he says "understand...(this or that)" I think it's so irritating.

But that's beside the point.

I'm impressed your ability to spin his actions in that instance into a positive. I don't buy it, but it was a good effort.

Positive role = was in the room sometimes while the serious people were talking.

Crucial role = actually said good morning at the buffet breakfast.

I'd really like to hear from John Hume exactly what "positive role" Hillary played. "Positive role?" That could mean just about anything. Until I get some more specifics, I'm going to assume that it means exactly nothing.

I heard she brought a group of Protestant women and a group of Catholic women together at the same table. Granted, they all already knew each other, and granted, it wasn't the first such meeting among those particular groups, but given the way she's managed her campaign, perhaps we should be grateful the meeting didn't end in car bombs and Molotov cocktails.

But then again, the meeting only lasted 50 minute, while it took her campaign several weeks to implode.

What ambinder doesn't want you to see:

Sweet: Clinton calls Obama's Greg Craig memo a "false attack."

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/03/sweet_clinton_calls_obamas_gre.html

Tim K: Obama is making the case that he has just as much experience as other Presidents, perhaps more. Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, JFK, FDR, Abraham Lincon, etc to name a few great presidents. But, Obama also doesn't say that he is the most experienced against Clinton or McCain. He is saying that all that experience (including fraudulent or inflated years) hasn't informed their judgement when called upon to use it on issue after issue. In this, I think Obama makes a powerful argument, one that has been validated by million of voters and delegates to the national party.

Also, his best argument against a certain type of experience is that the politics in DC doesn't help solve problems. He has used this argument successfully against Biden, Dodd, Richardson, and Edwards. It will also be successful against McCain.

For the moment, it seems like it won't work against Clinton but given more time in states still to hold primaries, it will work eventually.

I think that the reason it is taking longer for Obama to best Clinton is that she has more advantages: a. wife of a popular presiden, b. she has been given (earned?) the full force of the democratic party machinery, c. more national name recognition, d. a historic candidacy in her own right. All this makes Obama the underdog, even though he has, for all intent and purposes, won the nomination. That is why she can lose 11 straight primaries in Feb and is still alive.

There are many more arguments against Clinton that Obama can't make, but the republican's can make successfully that I don't care to go into. Obama has been restrained and has only gone after her on the most silly assertions of her campaign. I don't know if it will be enough to bring her down, he may have to bring up more evil stuff but I hope it doesn't come to that. I think if Obama wins PA, she will have to concede. If she tries to get the nomination unfairly which the Clinton's are very capable of doing, she will lose the general election as Obama's voters get turned off and won't vote for her. She can't win the GE without independents and some republicans. In other words, a majority of the electorate.

I will never vote for McCain. This is a change from before when I thought I could vote for him if Obama was defeated by the Clinton(s). I will hold my nose and vote for Hillary, but I will hate it. I don't think that most Obama supporters could vote for her now unless Obama tells them to. Since he is decent and a strong democrat, he probably will make that request.

Jeff:

Perhaps we should be grateful the meeting didn't end in car bombs and Molotov cocktails.

You're really on a roll with despicable statements today.

Barack Obama does not have as much experience as Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, JFK or FDR.

Clinton Playbook, Rule No.1: PERCEPTION TRUMPS REALITY. For the uninitiated, this is the most essential precept to living a double-life. Case in point, one Mr. Eliot Spitzer, governor of the State of New York. By day, Mr. Spitzer rooted out criminal activities. And, was paid handsomely for it. By night, Mr. Spitzer himself indulged in those selfsame activities. For which he also paid handsomely. It doesn't help that just about every photo of Eliot Spitzer, includes a certain New York Senator. I shouldn't be surprised by all the cross-pollination between Hillary Clinton and the Governor. Although one thing's for certain, neither New York politician likes to have his or her bubble burst: http://theseedsof9-11.com

But, Obama also doesn't say that he is the most experienced against Clinton or McCain. He is saying that all that experience (including fraudulent or inflated years) hasn't informed their judgement when called upon to use it on issue after issue.

And, as a purely political point, the experience strategy is doomed to fail against McCain if it ultimately elevates Hillary into the general. Her argument is reduced to nothing when she's placed against a candidate with similarly bad judgment but more extensive experience.

The best analogy I've heard for this so far:
Claiming Hillary Clinton has executive experience is like claiming Yoko Ono was a Beatle.
Posted by Doug | March 11, 2008 11:49 AM

Wasn’t the influence of Yoko Ono a major reason the Beatles broke up? Oh yeah that's what Hillary is doing to the Democratic Party right now...

Tim K.,

ok, so, instead of accusing me of plagiarism, maybe you'd like to actually answer my legitimate policy question:

>> have you seen, or can you point to, a single article / piece of reporting that has taken a critical look at HRC's legislative experience in the Senate?

And to your second "point," that I'm "spinning" for Obama, I guess this is just a difference between us. Me, I dont want elected officials to remain in office if they are defrauding their constituents and using bogus signatures to get elected. I think it's a dishonest practice, and what's more, if more people challenged the petitions of long-time machine politicians, perhaps our state and local governments would be a lot cleaner.

But hey, if dishonesty in the electoral process doesn't bother you than, what can I say??

Tim. Thank you for the articles you posted.
The first two I had already read, and in fact they were a large part of the reason I hold such a high opinion of Senator Obama.

The third article didn't seem to have anything backing up its assertions. Perhaps if you could point me to the original stories referring to his 'Challenging signatures'?

I would like a similar link from Enough about his statement of why those signatures were challenged. The more actual information we work with the better. Primary sources are best of course. As in original news stories, or opinion stories with primary sources stated.

I don't agree with you that she is stretching her role

Kosovo, Ireland, family medical leave act, Somalia, ... ?

how can you be supporting a candidate who doesn't have a record of experience to stretch?

He has a record of accomplishment, Tim, but I admit that's not really why I'm supporting Obama now that Edwards has dropped out. Obama is upfront about what he's done, why he's running, how he'll win, and is far and away a better campaigner. If Clinton gets the nom, she's shooting for a 50%+1 GE race, and that'll crush Dems downticket, probably losing Congress, and guaranteeing gridlock and stalemate for the next four years. Of course, it's *extremely* unlikely that she can win now, the numbers just aren't there for her. I really can't figure out why she hasn't dropped out yet.

BTW I found some fantastic articles…A MUST read for EVERYONE “The Hussein Dynamic” at http://savagepolitics.com/?p=171 and “Follow the Money” at http://savagepolitics.com/?p=165

The writing is BRILLIANT and goes beyond what the MSM feeds us. It was about time!!!!! Their sections for “Humor” and “Political Analysis” are FANTASTIC!!!!


http://savagepolitics.com

Daniel:

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2008-02-28/news/obama-and-me/

Try reading this article, hopefully you'll find it interesting.

TimK is going around posting the same undigested crap on a whole bunch of blogs. Probably a paid Hillary campaign flack (and about as competent as the rest of her campaign).

Hey, geniuses bringing up Northern Ireland. Read between the lines. Yes, Hume has backed Hillary and Trimble and other loyalists have criticized her role. It's a pretty good guess if, after the fact of a NEGOTIATED PEACE DEAL, one side says you were helpful and the other side says you were not helpful, it probably actually means you were, in fact, involved, but you DID NOT HELP BRING BOTH SIDES TOGETHER. In fact, it's pretty clear that Hillary Clinton backed the republicans from the start. If George Mitchell was as bad a diplomat as Hillary Clinton, there most likely would have been no peace deal.

Of course, it's *extremely* unlikely that she can win now, the numbers just aren't there for her. I really can't figure out why she hasn't dropped out yet.

It's her one realistic shot at the presidency. Another four years of Senate experience isn't going to impress anyone who's not impressed already, and as we've seen in the presidential campaigns of so many senators before her, it's as likely as not to be an albatross around her neck in any future race. It's either now or never, and as long as we have this Florida/Michigan idiocy that's been bungled by virtually everyone who's touched it, she sees a way she can get the nomination (though, as any possible path would doom her in the general, I can't understand why she wants it.).

Plus, she's a fighter, which is a reason why I was enthusiastic about her as a candidate until fairly recently. Then it became apparent to me like her staff would spend more time going after each other in a back-alley brawl than the other side. Sounds like they need some Teamocil!