Dueling Spin: The Big Picture V. Clinton's Taxes

Dueling spin calls today, the first involving two senators and Harold Ickes and Mark Penn -- fun, fun, because Mr. Ickes and Mr. Penn are said not to get along.

"Too much is yet unknown about Sen. Obama," Mr. Ickes said. "There is not another shoe to drop about Sen. Clinton."

Ickes made a point of noting that even pledged delegates weren't bound, although he did not say that the campaign would go back on its "pledge" pledge -- that's the pledge not to lobby the pledge delegates.

Mr. Penn said that Obama broke under pressure. "After only a few days of questioning, Sen. Obama's vote significantly went down."

Ickes's made the case:

"What's really important, is not whether you won a state like Idaho, where there are a handful of Democrats, it's what electoral base do you bring to this enterprise in key, swing and purple states, which I include the likes of New Mexico, the likes of Tennessee, and the likes of Ohio,a and the likes of Florida?

On to the call by Obama's chief strategist, David Axelrod.

"What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The vetting of Hillary Clinton is just going to start," he said.

The buzzwords: Vin Gupta and taxes.

"We're going to ask your guys to your jobs."

About ten minutes after the call began, Howard Wolfson, Clinton's communications chief, e-mailed a statement:

Faced with many legitimate questions about Senator Obama's long-time relationship with indicted political fixer Tony Rezko, the Obama campaign has chosen to lash out at Senator Clinton.

Here are the facts:

Over 20 years of the Clintons' tax returns are in the public domain.

Their tax returns since they left the White House will be made available on or around April 15.

This information will be in addition to 15 years of uninterrupted public financial disclosure reports.

Instead of making false attacks, we urge Senator Obama to release all relevant financial and other information related to indicted political fixer Tony Rezko.

The reporter questions focused on delegate math. Said Axelrod: "It's increasingly clear that Sen. Obama is going to be the pledged delegate leader on the basis of the votes he's gotten across the country. The math has not changed as a result of yesterday."

Would the Obama campaign be open to a do-over in Florida and Michigan?

Axelrod: "Well, I don't know, and I'm not going to get into the modes of resolution to this. This is in the hands of the chairman of the party, of the DNC, and we will work with the whatever they work out."

Comments

Pledged delegates never go for another candidate although Mr. Ickes is correct they are not bound to do so. This argument does not sync with reality.

Posted by Ben | March 5, 2008 1:35 PM

Most of the Clinton campaign's arguments do not sync with reality. Unfortunately the media just tends to transcribe whatever they say without checking to see if it meets the smell test. We'll see if the Obama campaign's more aggressive approach in challenging the media makes any difference.

Posted by SDinIA | March 5, 2008 1:45 PM

ambinder the obama's have not release the same tax information the obama camp is now demanding from Hillary. Why won't you call the obama camp out? What are you afraid of? The top sheet of their tax returns are all the obama's released. There is more information in the senators tax releases. Why does the "liberal media" enjoy being played for rubes. That must be it right ambinder? Ask the quesion.

And while you are at it ask obama why he said:
When Mr. Obama first fielded questions about Mr. Rezko last fall, he said they had had lunch once or twice a year and had socialized with their wives “two to four times.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/us/politics/14rezko.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

When we have an FBI mole recording numerous meetings between obama nad rezko:
My life as an FBI mole
FBI PROBE | Real estate broker convicted of fraud becomes a mole for feds to nail Rezko

Sources said Thomas also logged frequent visits to Rezko from Gov. Blagojevich and U.S. Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.).
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/786015,CST-NWS-mole10.article

What are you 'reporters' afraid of?

Posted by hadenough | March 5, 2008 1:47 PM

Obama needs to pull a McCain and call a press conference where he answers every question on Rezko. Each time his campaign hits Hillary, they come back with this. Take it away as an issue by being open. It'll be a couple-day story, leaving him plenty of time to get back on offense before Pa. This drip, drip, drip is killing him.

Posted by NHCt | March 5, 2008 2:06 PM

"Obama needs to pull a McCain and call a press conference where he answers every question on Rezko.

Posted by NHCt"

I would donate big money to obama's campaign to see that. But the 'reporters' would have to ask and demand answers as to what obama and rezko discussed at the numerous meetings taped by an FBI mole:

My life as an FBI mole
FBI PROBE | Real estate broker convicted of fraud becomes a mole for feds to nail Rezko

Sources said Thomas also logged frequent visits to Rezko from Gov. Blagojevich and U.S. Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.).
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/786015,CST-NWS-mole10.article

Oh and they would also have to force obama to answer for his lies about knowing rezko:
When Mr. Obama first fielded questions about Mr. Rezko last fall, he said they had had lunch once or twice a year and had socialized with their wives “two to four times.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/us/politics/14rezko.html?_r=2&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

At least those 2 questions would have to asked and answered so there is no danger I'd have to donate big to that criminals campaign.

Posted by hadenough | March 5, 2008 2:19 PM

On Talk of the Nation just now, Ickes explained that superdelegates are free to change sides, as of course are pledged delegates. Definitely a point they're trying to sell today. Also interesting that they are sending very negative signals about redoing Michigan and Florida--they want them seated, full-strength, as is.

They just gave a delegate number, too, for all 4 states--374 up for grabs, net gain about 10 for Clinton.

The big picture has no math in it, ergo its appeal for Clinton.

Finally, if it's clear there's something to ask (unlike the tax returns--I kind of doubt they forgot to file the last 7 years), then Obama should sit down and having a frank interview with one Chicago paper on everything about Rezko. It would demonstrate his commitment to transparency. But there must be a list of real questions that would convince me there's stuff to answer--no "were you up to anything? anything at all? are you sure" I'm not talking about giving him the list beforehand, but about assuring people that there is something specific to answer.

Posted by Deborah | March 5, 2008 2:31 PM

I remember when Clinton would release the health care task force records, and then the Rose law firm records.

With the taxes, she is either hiding something or demonstrating her tendency to avoid sharing information with the public.

It certainly makes one think -- What is she trying to hide?

Posted by Janet | March 5, 2008 2:51 PM

STOP CRYING OBAMABOY! YOU LOST BIG! sore looser! When Obamas friends and financial backers are either in court or jail. Obama and his boytoy Axelrod are grasping at straws in desperate times. " These times are a changin" Looks like the media love affair with media coronated Obama is over and he cant handle the heat! time for him to get out and stay out of the kitchen.
OR...tell us about Rezko?, Renzi?, Former Dallas Mayor Hill? Mr.Aunchi? OR, his meeting with Canada, OR According to Muslim religion, father’s religion determines the religion of the offspring. Therefore, Obama was truly once a Muslim and the law in Islam called TAGIYEH which means you can lie about your religion in order to do good for Allah! what good is Obama hoping to do for Allah? OR, Obama agreeing and highly respecting the actions and opinions of his spiritual advisor Rev. Wright who has recently awarded Louis Farrakhan, Nation of Islam Minister with their churches highest award. Might I add Oprah attends the same church! OR Obama camp calling African-American superdelegates to target, harass and threaten,” said Rep. Emanuel Cleaver II (D-Mo.), a superdelegate who supports Clinton. Cleaver said black superdelegates are receiving “nasty letters, phone calls, threats, being called an Uncle Tom. Rep. Diane Watson, D-Calif., also is receiving several e-mails from individuals saying they won’t vote for her if she doesn’t change her support to Obama, she should vote for him because she, too, is black. Rep. John Lewis, a black civil rights icon, sadly enough has given into the racial threatning politics of the Obama camp and switched his support from Clinton to Obama.

VOTE FOR CLINTON, WE HAVE PLAYED WITH OPRAHBAMA LONG ENOUGH! we need a True American leader and thats not Obama.

Posted by mali | March 5, 2008 2:57 PM

Doesn't "on or about April 15" mean that they won't release the tax returns until just before or after the PA primary?

Methinks there's something they don't want folks to see.

Posted by Suzie | March 5, 2008 2:58 PM

Of course Axelrod doesn't want a do-over primary in Florida. Obama can't possibly win it, since he does poorly with both seniors and Latinos. The Obama campaign would prefer to disenfranchise the 1.2 million Floridians who voted in the Democratic primary. Not a smart move, really, Democrats.

Obviously the Democratic nomination should go to the candidate who can win large, blue states. Those small red states Obama won in caucuses are very nice, but they're not going to go for him in the general.

As for the tax returns, I have to tell you I'm a lot less worried about that than I am about Senator Obama's decision to let Tony Rezko help him buy his house. Where was Obama's much-vaunted judgment during that set of transactions? How about releasing the settlement papers so we can see where the Rezko funds came from? Obama still declines to sit down with reporters and fully disclose the details of those transactions and his relationship with Rezko.

Posted by ezr | March 5, 2008 3:03 PM

"Doesn't "on or about April 15" mean that they won't release the tax returns until just before or after the PA primary?

Methinks there's something they don't want folks to see.

Posted by Suzie "

Hey I agree suzie. I'd call it shameful. How dare obama attack Hillary for not releasing information obama has never released and just as bad is obama saying Hillary won't release her 2007 tax forms when obama hasn't released his. So we agree in true rovian form obama must have something to hide on his taxes that's why he uses that as a line of attack.

The other sad part is the "liberal media" playing along with obama. Even though ambinder and otehrs know obama only releases the top sheet of his tax forms, less than the regular senate tax relase, and obama has not released his 2007 taxes thw fawning "liberal media" keeps pushing obama's desperate attacks. That's even more shameful than axelrods cheap tricks.

Posted by hadenough | March 5, 2008 3:47 PM

mali, how long you been workin' for the RNC, bud?

Anyway, Obama cannot --must not-- comment on a case that now sits before a court of law.

He should talk about it once a verdict is rendered, by which time he'll at least know what was entered into evidence if not the totality of what they think they've got on him...

Posted by No can do | March 5, 2008 3:59 PM

Marc: I wish you would challenge statements and spin more. It seems to me that's what a journalist/columnist/pundit is supposed to do. We can all get the press releases directly from the campaigns.

"Their tax returns since they left the White House will be made available on or around April 15."

What possible reason could they have to not release 6 years of back tax info before April 15?

The fact that that question (not even that worded that specifically) is an Obama campaign talking point SHOULD NOT preclude you and other reporters from asking it. It is a basic point of factual inquiry. To do their jobs properly, reporters need not only to report the spin, but IGNORE that same spin and ask the plainly necessary questions, of both sides.

NOTE: and I don't mean it would have to be right then, on the call. It can happen as a follow up to Wolfson or his deputy, and it can be posted publicly here, as a question awaiting comment.

Posted by along | March 5, 2008 4:13 PM

Hello people, Wake up - what we have here is the ol' shell game by the master of shell games, Bill Clinton himself. Now I'm not saying he is doing this directly, but these two are peas in a pod. They have managed to take the public's eyes off of the important things by attacking and distracting with real or imagined issues of their opponents. Anyone can easily find lots of very dirty business with these Clintons and I'm a very liberal person who gave up my trust in them even before the Lewinski debacle. The most galling thing is the Clintons have such long questionable associations in questionable multinational corporations (WALMART, TYSON FOODS, MONSANTO) and nobody says a thing! And what about her Chief Strategist, Mark Penn? He is the CEO of Burston-Marsteller. This is the same PR company that whitewashed: Countrywide's fraudulent loaning practises; Indonesia's genocide; Blackwater's coverup of murder in Iraq; the disappearances of over 20,000 individuals in Argentina. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. Moreover, how is it that union members support Clinton when Penn's company is paid by union busters in the millions? These facts are easily found.

No one expects our political leaders to be pure as the driven snow. Everyone understands about working with people who may have questionable ethics - sometimes you have to do that to build bridges and accomplish something better for society at large i.e. whole nation states have had to come together in spite of their dirty dealings with one another and move on.

But in the case of the Clintons, they have so many fingers in so many pies and their self-aggrandizement is soaring. Their ability to deceive the public with media manipulation, and really clever this last spree - not giving positive media for Clinton, not investigating Obama - knows no bounds.

I can't stomach the Clintons and they used to be, in my mind (I voted for him in '92 and I was from Ohio at the time), they used to be from a town called Hope.

Now they disparage hope as empty and hollow.

Fight back Obama!

Posted by Amala | March 5, 2008 4:22 PM

"What possible reason could they have to not release 6 years of back tax info before April 15?

Posted by along "

Exactly. What are the obama's hiding? We want to know. Only after both obama's release all their tax forms going back until the start of obama's rezko relationship will we know how big a crook obama is. Not only that what about obama crying about Hillary's 07 tax return when obama hasn't released his. A differnt kind of audacity. And how about the fact obama has never released the bottom sheets of his tax forms but demands Hillary's so he can go on fishing expedition. For shame. In the middle of one of the most important elections in generations obama wastes time with this crap. For shame again. Of course the fawning "liberal media" is the reason we have to waste a second on this crap.

Posted by hadenough | March 5, 2008 4:37 PM

No one is complaining about the 2007 returns, apologists. We want to know why she prefers to create the appearance of a scandal. Just as a question of governance, this does not look promising for a Clinton presidency. "There's nothing to see here, but you can't see it"--huh?

Posted by Deborah | March 5, 2008 6:08 PM

"No one is complaining about the 2007 returns, apologists. We want to know why she prefers to create the appearance of a scandal. Just as a question of governance, this does not look promising for a Clinton presidency. "There's nothing to see here, but you can't see it"--huh?

Posted by Deborah"

Listen aplogist why won't obama release his 2007 tax returns. Why won't obama release the bottom sheets to his tax returns going back to when he first decided hooking up with a player was a good idea. Why must obama create the appearance of a scandal? Why does obama want Hillary to release tax inforamtion obama himself has never released.

So many questions.

Posted by hadenough | March 5, 2008 6:37 PM

It becomes more apparant with each passing day why the Clintons attract the less-educated and less informed. Like the Clinton campaign itself, you figure if you say the same thing over and over, it will magically become true.

TRUTH: Largely overlooked in the campaign cacophony is the erosion of the post-Watergate tradition in which candidates went beyond the letter-of-the-law disclosure requirements and released their full income tax returns. ONLY SENATORS BARACK OBAMA AND CHRISTOPHER DODD HAVE DONE SO. Senator Hillary Clinton has promised to release her income tax return sometime next year, but primary voters should have this information while they ponder who should get their party's nomination. (International Herald Tribune, November 18, 2007)

Following a standard of disclosure set by former Sen. Paul Simon (D-Ill.) and maintained by the the state's current senior U.S. senator, Dick Durbin, OBAMA HAS RELEASED HIS TAX RETURNS EACH YEAR since he first ran for the U.S. Senate in 2004. (The Swamp, March 5, 2008)

Posted by MKS., Texas | March 6, 2008 2:41 AM

Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama:

Dear Madam, and Sir,

A Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama ticket is what we want. And that is what we need to take back the Whitehouse. We want a smart, tough, idealistic, seasoned veteran of many battles fighting for the American people (Hillary Clinton). With a young, passionate, smart, open-minded, hard-working idealist fighting for the American people (Barrack Obama). The DREAM TEAM!

You are both fabulous candidates. And we, the American people are very fortunate to have each of you. Taking back the Whitehouse is critical for the American people, and the world at this time. And I think the American people have been saying loudly, and clearly that a Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama ticket is the best way to do this.

I think the American people have made it very clear that they feel Hillary Clinton is the one best able to lead the ticket against John McCain at this critical, and desperate time in America, and around the world. These dramatic comebacks are testament to Hillary Clinton's skill, and experience as a fighter for the American people. They are also a testament to the strong desire of the American people to have both of you fighting for the American people at this time of midnight in America.

Typical of the Clinton's is an uncanny ability to see and understand what the American people want. And then to try and get it for them. Even if they have to go through three political near death experiences to try and get it for the American people. This is classic Clinton's. They are the best I have ever seen.

We are desperate out here. Millions of us are suffering greatly. And tens of thousands of us are dying needlessly every year. Men, women, children, and babies. We need help! As Hillary Clinton said "It's not a game". We need the two of you together on our side fighting for us, and for the American dream for all. Not fighting against each other anymore.

It's time for you Senator Obama to join forces with Hillary Clinton as her running mate so that we can all focus our energies, and resources on taking back America for the American people.

Don't make me hurt you. :-)

Sincerely

Jacksmith...

Posted by jacksmith | March 6, 2008 5:15 AM

"It becomes more apparant with each passing day why the Clintons attract the less-educated and less informed. "

I laugh each time I see something like this. In our household, with two master's degrees and a Ph.D., we don't exactly qualify as "less-educated." Perhaps MKS would like to compare his or her education level with ours? Or how about earnings? We are a one-income family with a gross of $300K annually. MKS, how about you? At the very least you must concede that I can spell "apparent," while you cannot.

Face it, folks. Obama will go to the end of the primary season having won a single large state -- Illinois, his home state. He cannot win the Democratic base. He cannot win the Latino vote. He will not beat John McCain in a general election. Our best hope for recapturing the White House is a Clinton-Obama ticket.

Posted by ezr | March 6, 2008 9:18 AM

Let the American PEOPLE see your TAX RETURNS Clinton ! What are you afraid of ?

Posted by PulSamsara | March 6, 2008 2:50 PM

Obama released his tax return (all 23 pages)
last year in April.
Please, people stop spreading lies.

Posted by jbt | March 6, 2008 3:00 PM

There are too many Hillary-haters/Clinton-haters for Hillary to beat McCain.
Senator Clinton is not about uniting people. She doesn't seem to care about
dividing the party with negative campaigning.

She is in it for herself.

Posted by jbt | March 6, 2008 3:11 PM

Although I'm a registered Democrat and I would vote for John McCain long before I would risk the integrity of the Presidency to another Clinton. The tabloids would have a field day. This is more than Hillary wanting to rebuild this nation. This is also about redemption of the Clinton name. Was there any other Democrat, other than me, humilated, and embarrassed by the Clinton scandels. Or are we that far removed from that period. There is much talk about Senator Obama relationship with Rezko, his pastors, etc...What about the relationship Hillary has with the man that degenerated the highest office in the land?

Posted by rocky | March 6, 2008 3:50 PM

Although I'm a registered Democrat and I would vote for John McCain long before I would risk the integrity of the Presidency to another Clinton. The tabloids would have a field day. This is more than Hillary wanting to rebuild this nation. This is also about redemption of the Clinton name. Was there any other Democrat, other than me, humilated, and embarrassed by the Clinton scandels. Or are we that far removed from that period. There is much talk about Senator Obama relationship with Rezko, his pastors, etc...What about the relationship Hillary has with the man that degenerated the highest office in the land?

Posted by rocky | March 6, 2008 3:50 PM