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It's Not All About Race

19 Mar 2008 10:00 am

So this was supposed to be posted TODAY... and instead was posted yesterday...but somehow, despite a timestamp suggesting it was published BEFORE Obama spoke, 47 of you managed to comment.

Did Obama's speech "work?"

The commentariot interprets this to mean: how do Reagan Democrats feel about the speech?

There's not that much evidence that Obama has a problem with whites, YET. He won 40% of them in Georgia, won them handily in Virginia ... whites of all socioeconomic backgrounds. And in Wisconsin, too. Yes, Pew and Gallup and some state polls have found that blue collar Democrats and white working class independents are attracted to John McCain when Obama is the Democratic nominee, but that evidence is preliminary, and the thread hasn't really been pulled. We don't know whether that's because Obama has yet to establish his security credentials, whether these whites are uncomfortable voting for a black man, or whether Clinton's kitchen-sink attacks against Obama are hurting him when pollsters ask people to project forward.

Does Obama resonate with the steelworker in Pittsburgh? Well, is that steelworker rich? Does he or she read Dailykos? How's his pension? His health care? Is he young or old? There are so many cross-cutting cleavages having little to do with race here.

The most polarized states are the states with the harshest racial histories and the states where Obama has done well so far -- think Virginia -- the New South -- he seems to be doing well enough, thank you, with white voters, although I haven't seen a poll there.

Obama's speech is about, yes, race, but its reception may depend as much on the hearer's class and age and religion and gender.

Comments (90)

I will vote McCain if B.Obama is the nominee.

Ticket

Clinton/obama

mcain/?

MCain

Clinton/?

Mcain/?

Clinton!

Obama/?

Mcain/?

Mcain!

NO OBAMA Period!

Ticket

Clinton/obama

mcain/?

MCain

Clinton/?

Mcain/?

Clinton!

Obama/?

Mcain/?

Mcain!

NO OBAMA Period!

Ticket

Clinton/obama

mcain/?

MCain

Clinton/?

Mcain/?

Clinton!

Obama/?

Mcain/?

Mcain!

NO OBAMA Period!

I will write in Hillary Clinton if Obama steals the nomination by denying Florida and Mich.

I will also vote McCain if Obama is the nominee.

I will also vote McCain if Obama is the nominee.

I will vote for McCain is Obama is the nominee, I am a lifelong Dem who has never voted GOP

Its Hillary or McCain for me, period.

There was no reason to drag Gerry Ferraro into his defiant history lesson. If he wants forgiveness, he needs to forgive. If he wants to heal he needs to begin the healing. He is not the right man or woman to break the color barrier. The Democratic party needs to hear this. Mainstream Democrats will either stay away in droves, vote for either the candidate being offered by the other party or write in the candidate that they believe has offered what it is America really needs to move forward. And I for one did not need the last five days of hate, filthy comments, and hearing that one race -- when not guilty of enslaving another is now guilty of resentment when the former is finding success in education and business. If such a large number of Americans are so contemptable, why in God's name does Senator Obama want to lead us? Perhaps he should look at another avocation.

I will vote for McCain if Hillary is not the nominee (just so these b*****ds lose.) -- Count my husband too!

I think that Obama did more damage with this speech. I couldn't get pass his faux comparison of Wright to Ferraro or Wright to his grandma. He just gave seniors a reason not to ever vote for him.

In addition, he showed that he does not have the judgement to answer the 3am phone call. Just Friday, he said that he wasn't aware of Wright's controversial comments or had never heard of any. Now, he talks out the other side of his mouth and admits that he did.

Reminds me of Nafta-Gate all over again.

If Obama is the dems choice, then the dems in my house will vote McCain. All five of us. Afterwards, we will leave the party and register independent until there is new leadership at the DNC.

I don't think his speech worked. Trashed Grandma to prop up his preacher. Wanted Imus fired for much less, lied about NAFTA, comes up with new revelations about Rezko when convenient and he did not hear those comments in the church before he heard those comments in the church. Whew! Except for his true believers he's losing credibility daily. I will not vote for Senator Obama for any reason.

Except for his true believers he's losing credibility daily. I will not vote for Senator Obama for any reason.

This hardcore lifelong Dem and military wife will be voting for McCain if the Democrats are stupid enough to nominate Obama. He is the most divisive figure I have EVER seen in American politics, bar none. He has deliberately stirred racial anger to garner votes, while pointing the guilt and racism finger elsewhere.

NOW he wants us all to rise above it? I've been rising above it for years, Senator Obama. You and Axelrod are the ones who went to that racial gutter, because you could not get the votes competing on your record alone.

Don't make this the problem that we the American people need to heal by voting for you. "Vote for me, or it proves the country is still racist" is nasty blackmail of the worst sort. No thanks.

I will vote mccain for president if this democratic party is stupid enough to nominate FRAUD-OBAMA... I am a male in my 20s, and if OBAMA is the face of the "new democartic party", then COUNT me out...

I do not want Obama and his "anti-american" "anti-jewish" "anti-white" preacher anywhere near the whitehouse.

I will never vote for Obama and will hold my nose and vote for McCain if Obama is the Democratic Nominee.

I have never voted for a Republican for President in my life - but if the Dems force me, I will vote for McCain.

with a mentor and spiritual advisor like that - i will never vote for BHObama - never - Hillary or McCain for me and my family of democratic voters in Texas! BHO has been caught in too many lies - and poor grandma - UGHHHHHHH what a shame.... really....

Will attempt to write in Hillary if B.O. is the nominee. If I can't I'll vote for McCain.

Will attempt to write in Hillary if B.O. is the nominee. If I can't I'll vote for McCain.

I will vote McCain if Obama is the nominee; simple fact. I am a 20 year old GLBT male; extremely socially liberal; but as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have a GOP'er in the white house than that piece of filth Obama. The most divisive politican I have ever seen.

PS--this Wright issue is doing tons of damage to Barack. Most recent Rasumussen has Hillary now leading with white voters by 11 points. His disapproval rating has risen dramatically since it hit it's high last month, his disapproval is up 17. At least the rest of the country is waking up, but I will never vote for that race baiting, power hungry, coattail riding dirty Chicago politician.

The speech was a failure -- he totally missed on the point that he owes all of us an apology. If his personal pastor and confidant for 20 years, if the man he couldn't distance himself from was Farakkhan would we think a speech would make that better?

It's absurd. His friend and mentor of 20 years has derided whites, America, and former president and first lady Bill and Hillary Clinton. I don't want the next president to have close advisers like that...to me he's as scary as Bush has been. Bush, too, ran on a platform of uniting not dividing, and compassionate conservatism. Sorry, not going there again.

Voted for Obama in the primary, but will not vote for him again...ever.

I will never vote for Barack Obama. Not sure who he is but don't like what I see or hear.

The speech hurt him more than helped him IMO, so no it did not work.

"Not sure who he is" I meant because he changes story about Rezko and what he heard at church daily. I don't know what to think. Plus comparing elderly Grandma's sterotyping to Rev. Wright's hate speech.

Had no intention of voting for him before, so the speech didn't change my mind. All it did was confirm that he's a liar, and an opportunist. The networks, CNN, FOX, my local radio talk stations actually all picked up on it too - wow, maybe St Obama's powers aren't all that great after all - bet Micelle wasn't that proud....

I will not vote for BO.

He needs to drop out of the race, NOW, because he's unelectable in the GE.

And if he ever makes it as the nominee due to the machinations of Dean, Pelosi, Brazille and their UNDEMOCRATIC methods of disenfranchising 2.5 million voters in Florida and Michigan voters (c'mon Wyoming handful of people count more?), then, I will lobby for Harold Ford and the rest of the DLC to be a new Democratic party.

Not voting for that guy. Didn't before; won't in the general. I'd rather the other party messed up for 4 years more than a Dem again. This Texan could use some more cattle to that half-pint hat.

I can never, in good conscience, vote for Obama. If he is the Dem nominee, my vote goes to McCain.

I will never vote for BO - he is a race baiting liar who slimed the Clintons, Ferraro and others for his own personal gain. He has used blacks to further his own ambition and has shown that he would do anything to get elected.

The dirty Chicago style politics that he practices with the obscene corruption must be exposed and abolished.

I will vote for Hillary Clinton as the Democratic Nominee. Should the Democratic Party (meaning Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean, Donna Brazile, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry and their ilk) through craven and base ways give the nomination to BO, I will write in Hillary Clinton. I am a life time Democrat, and I will not vote for any politician that continues to endorse the opportunist that is Barack Obama.

I will NEVER vote for Obama. I would vote McCain to make sure BO loses the GE. That is how much I have come to dislike him and what he has done to the Clintons.

I will NEVER vote for Obama. I would vote McCain to make sure BO loses the GE. That is how much I have come to dislike him and what he has done to the Clintons.

I will be voting for the war hero Sen. John McCain if the most qualified person,Sen. Hillary Clinton is not on the ticket in Nov. No way will I vote for Sen. Barak Obama. No way no how.

I will vote for McCain if Hillary is not the nominee.

I will vote for McCain if Hillary is not the nominee.

Thank you for the opportunity to post.

Senator Clinton should be the Democratic nominee for the presidency. I went with her after the first debates and had hoped that Senator Obama would be her VP and learn more under her tutelage.

But now...there is absolutely no way I want Senator Obama on the ticket in any capacity. And it's not just Reverend Wright and how he lied just yesterday and then tried to wash that away today... It is: his political dealings in Chicago; not adequately representing his constituents in Illinois; taking credit away from other Chicago politicians; NAFTA-Canadians (and his lies); Rezko (and his lies); race-baiting and unwarranted attacks on the Clintons.

This goes beyond politics as usual. Senator Obama has attempted to divide the Party and I won't stand for it.

If Senator Clinton does not win the nomination, I will write her in.

If Sen. Hillary Clinton is not on that ticket I will for the first time in my life vote for a Republican.I am a fourth generation dyed in the wool yellow dog Democrat. I can not in good conscience vote for Obama.At the start of this campaign I thought that I could support any of the Dems but as I came to see the real Obama and how he would destroy the Democratic party just to get the nomination I realized that I could never vote for him. I have come to despise him for his underhanded race baiting and smearing of the best President this country has ever had.Obama started the race baiting by blaming Bill and Hillary and he whines and complains and acts like a big baby yelling at them to apologise for things they have not done.He out right lies and the media will not call him on it. He has been giving unbelievable positive press and the pundits gush and rave ad nauseum about him, 24/7 and he still can't close the deal. Hillary Clinton has to battle the media, Republicans and Obama zealots and she is still standing strong. She is a fighter and just what this country needs.She is the only one qualified to lead this country out of this mess that we are in. I will vote McCain If she is not the nominee because I know what he is but I could never take a roll of the dice for Mr.Unity.And I will work as hard as I can to see that this man is never elected President of this great country.

I will write in Hillary if BO is the democratic nominee. I will also reregister as an independant if BO is the nominee. Between the support he receives from the media (free pass) and the support from the DNC I have had enough! Obama has never stated one thing he would do for his own people now that he calls himself black. The question is he black enough has been answered for me!

When the candidates were here in New Hampshire, I listened to all their talks and decided that I wanted Hillary Clinton to be our next President. At that time I could have voted for Barack Obama if he eventually received the nomination. Now, knowing what I do, I would never vote for him for ANY political office because he is simply not trustworthy. Hillary is my first choice, followed by John McCain in November.

O-no! Hill yeah!

Wake up ! Obama just lied to the American people. I can never vote him, I would rather vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee.

The last two or three months have been an eye opener for this 40 year democrat. I have watched a bright young star use Chicago-style politics to throw everyone that stands in his way to the democratic nomination under the bus from the Clintons over false race-bating charges to G Ferraro to his own granny. This guy has no moral compass, but a silver tongue and unquenchable thirst for power and glorification. If he cared about people he would have spent more time helping get heat to his constituants than with Rezko. If he was a true patriot he would not let William Ayers and his wife (weather underground) help propell him into office. If he cared about the democratic party he would not have slimed the Clintons and let the comments about them from his pastor go unanswered. Where's the apology, Barry, to the Clintons? Where's the apology to the American people for lying to us on Friday about not hearing the comments from the pulpet?

I will NOT vote for Obama. I will not support the democratic party if Dean, Brazille, Pelosie etc keep pushing this and make him the nominy and not let FL and MI be seated.

Ditto:
I will never vote for BO - he is a race baiting liar who slimed the Clintons, Ferraro and others for his own personal gain. He has used blacks to further his own ambition and has shown that he would do anything to get elected.

The dirty Chicago style politics that he practices with the obscene corruption must be exposed and abolished.

I will vote for Hillary Clinton as the Democratic Nominee. Should the Democratic Party (meaning Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean, Donna Brazile, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry and their ilk) through craven and base ways give the nomination to BO, I will write in Hillary Clinton. I am a life time Democrat, and I will not vote for any politician that continues to endorse the opportunist that is Barack Obama.

I voted for Hillary in the primary and if she doesn't win the nomination, I'll skip the Presidential vote and vote the rest of the ballot. I don't want to be in the least bit responsible for an Obama presidency.

Ditto on everything above. I will never vote for Barak Obama. I will fill in Hillary/Bhutto for president. We can do write-ins in our state. BHO is a liar, ambitious, disrespectful, sexist, and rude politician. Axelrod is a jerk.

I am so disappointed with this man. Today he threw his grandmother under the bus to save his political ambitions.

If Obama did not know of Wright's hate-filled sermons he does not have sense enough to be POTUS. If he did know, his poor judgment disqualifies him for the office.

I will never vote for him.

Here's how a Kossack who heard the speech with a bunch of largely white and likely Republican strangers at a car dealership in Atlanta described the experience:

Now, I'm not going to talk about the speech itself. Plenty of folks have done that. I'll just say that I was watching intently, pleased with what I was hearing. When, after about 5 minutes, the guy who was working on my car came by to tell me that the car wouldn't be ready until the afternoon, I thanked him and stayed right where I was to watch the rest of the speech. But something curious happened. I was snapped out of the moment of the speech by the mechanic's visit, which was fine because Obama was, in a very real sense, giving the speech about race in America that I've wanted to hear my entire life: genuine, personal, intelligent, and direct. I've watched the speech again since this morning, and it didn't disappoint, but just at that moment I stopped watching it ...

... and started watching the people around me. The young black man. The elderly white couple. The two white women, one college-aged, one in her late-20s. One middle-aged white woman. Two white men, one college-aged, one in his late-30s. One Asian couple. All of them were watching the speech. Rapt. Nodding.

Gradually, the twentysomething white woman went back to her laptop, but kept smiling when Obama would say something important. The elderly white couple whispered in their Southern accented way: "He's really good... He's saying good things... He's a good young man..." The young black man chuckled when Obama said that Sunday morning was the most segregated hour in America, but was otherwise simply watching. And at one point, the middle-aged white woman asked one of the dealership folks, in another thick, thick Southern accent if she wouldn't mind turning up the volume, because she really wanted to hear this speech.

She, this white Southern woman from the suburbs, wanted to hear this speech, delivered by a Black man with a funny name running for President. And she was nodding.

But she wasn't the only one. Folks from the dealership, passing through on their way to and from whatever they do (most of them for not a lot of money) stopped and watch for 3 or 4 minutes. A young mechanic of ambiguous ethnicity stopped by at least a half-dozen times (hours later he stopped me as I was walking to the cashier to pay and said "That was some speech," then paused awkwardly, and said, hushed, "It's good that folks our age are getting involved, I think, right?"). Two salesmen, white, mid-40s, Southern as sweet tea, stopped and watched. And nodded. And I wasn't the only one to stick around to watch the speech after my business at the dealership was done.

Never seen anything like that. I bet a lot of folks in that dealership were Republicans. Most, based on snippets of conversation I heard, were Southerners. Almost all were white. And they watched, listened, and agreed with what Barack Obama was saying about race in America.

Holy shit. Obviously that's just one person posting under a bunch of different monikers, but the question is - how did they spam so quickly?

That is some suspicious lockstep right there. Did some message board announce an immediate response project?

What on earth? It looks like the same person posted 47 times, saying the exact same thing, with a bunch of different names. Is there a way to check IP addresses?

Looking at the spate of nonsense comments by GOP and/or HRC sockpuppets, why do I have the feeling that they all come from the same IP address? How "Mary Rosh" of them!

Given the similar language, I have a sinking suspicion that all the other commenters on this thread (prior to me) are the same person masquerading as different people. Maybe this is one of those people who are paid to make pro-HRC comments. There was something like that afoot.

As for me, I think Obama's speech quelled any doubts about his personal views that the commentariat might have had. That will matter for swaying the superdelegates. As for the general public, I think it's a wash between those whom the speech drove to Obama and those who've allowed the Wright thing to turn them off. In short, the speech will be a net positive because of the media narrative and the superdelegates, but not because of any immediate movement in the electorate.

There's another question, of course, and that's whether the speech was right on its own merits. It was. And any reasonable person who takes the time to read it will see that Obama's take on Wright is highly commendable. It's effect will depend on how many reasonable people read it.

We need a new word to describe when "astroturfing" meets "spamming". That's what you see here.

I thought his speech was brilliant . . . and that people who opposed him before still oppose him. (I find it hard to believe that many of those first 47 posters were genuinely on the fence.)

My husband and I voted for him in our (Southern) state's primary, and we will be proud to vote for him in November. It is rare to hear a politician tell a difficult truth.

WTF? It's a Taylor Marsh attack.

That is some suspicious lockstep right there. Did some message board announce an immediate response project?

Apparently. In fact, I'm betting that it's just one or two people using various "sockpuppet" names. It's one of the oldest tricks in the online message-board book.

Notice that "they" repeat the same talking-point lie over and over about him "throwing his grandma under the bus". It's not what you'd expect to hear from a diverse crowd of people, but it's exactly what you'd expect from someone who didn't actually see the speech but a) wanted to trick people into thinking that he or she did, and b) wanted to pretend that he or she was actually a dozen different other people.

The day my talking points align with writers and commenters from The Corner and National Review I plan to throw myself under the biggest bus I can find.

"Did Obama's speech "work?""

No. The fact obama played the race card from day one [see the senator punjab memos emailed to the "liberal media" as not for attribution] and had jackson jr. and the SC headquaters screaming racism after obama lost NH and now it's biting him the ass means he lost. The Speech was just a desperate attempt to put lipstick on the ugly hate filled campaign obama has run. Stick a fork in him.

We need a new word to describe when "astroturfing" meets "spamming". That's what you see here.

It's sockpuppetry. As Dalton and Alex both noted, the attack comments all use the same language and themes over and over again (like the "throwing his grandma under the bus" lie). This is probably one or two people working together to pollute the thread -- even six or seven people would manage to use different vocabularies than what was shown here.

"So this was supposed to be posted TODAY... and instead was posted yesterday...but somehow, despite a timestamp suggesting it was published BEFORE Obama spoke, 47 of you managed to comment."

Sockpuppets with superpowers.

The day my talking points align with writers and commenters from The Corner and National Review I plan to throw myself under the biggest bus I can find.

No kidding. And yet some of the online leaders of the pro-Hillary crowd are so deranged that they'll let Bill O'Reilly use them to beat up on other Democrats, as happened last night when Clinton supporter and ex-Kossack "alegre" and Clinton campaign staffer Jehmu Greene went onto BillO's show to bash both Kos and Obama as "liberal elitists".

I don't like it when Obama fans repeat old debunked Whitewater garbage, and I don't like it when Hillary fans go on O'Reilly's show and/or repeat WorldNetDaily and NewsMax crap (especially since O'Reilly, WND and NewsMax got their starts by bashing the Clintons).

Stop it now.

Yeah, those comments above threw me too.
Hadenough, I would like to have cited examples of Obama's campaign in which he uses hatred for political ends. I want to see the words of people who are actively campaigning for him, under his direct supervision and, most importantly, payment. Thanks very much.
I'm very sorry for you if you couldn't enjoy the speech as brave thing to do, and important, even if you don't agree with his policies. It must be very upsetting where you are.

This speech must have been a success judging by all of the lovely small minded responses I have read here.

Clearly there were marching orders to gum up Ambinder's site today. Robert Ethan doesn't have this many friends.

It's amazing to me how people jumped on the "grandma" line. Pat Buchanan and Newt Gingrich said it was shameful that he would associate his grandmother with Wright.

How are her stereotypes and hate speech any less significant just because she's older/white/a woman? Why is that not fair game for criticism? The POINT that these "Compassionate Christian Conservatives" (I put that in quotes because they've demonstrated repeatedly that they are none of the above) are missing is that Obama loves both his grandmother and his pastor DESPITE their faults, not because of them.

That was, without a doubt, the best speech he could have made at this point. I think the end result, if the pundits can pull their heads out of their asses and stop just talking to each other and start talking to real people, is that folks will start to understand that we're all in it together. No one is blameless, and everyone only has responsibility for one thing: their own actions and beliefs.

Last point: How many of us agree completely with EVERYTHING that our closest friends/family/spouses, etc. say? Does that mean you should completely disassociate from them? It's amazing to me again that the party of blind loyalty (Republicans) is trashing Obama's loyalty to his friend and spiritual adviser.

colleeniem,

You:
"Hadenough, I would like to have cited examples of Obama's campaign in which he uses hatred for political ends."

I already did. From my above post:
"[see the senator punjab memos emailed to the "liberal media" as not for attribution] and had jackson jr. and the SC headquaters screaming racism"

Look them up, educate yourself. Here are some hints: adnag at the nyts outed obama early on. adnag printed emails sent from obama's camp as not for attribution that was just copied and pasted rat wing talking points. Try this in google without the quotes: "obama punjab memo"

More from above:
"and had jackson jr. and the SC headquaters screaming racism after obama lost NH"

RUSSERT: In terms of accountability, Senator Obama, Senator Clinton on Sunday told me that the Obama campaign had been pushing this storyline. And, true enough, your press secretary in South Carolina — four pages of alleged comments made by the Clinton people about the issue of race.

In hindsight, do you regret pushing this story?

OBAMA: Well, not only in hindsight, but going forward. I think that, as Hillary said, our supporters, our staff get overzealous. They start saying things that I would not say. And it is my responsibility to make sure that we’re setting a clear tone in our campaign, and I take that responsibility very seriously, which is why I spoke yesterday and sent a message in case people were not clear that what we want to do is make sure that we focus on the issues.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jan/15/debate-transcript/

And also look up one of obama's national co-chairs jackson jr.s "Hillary didn't cry for New Orleans" comments played endlessly by the fawning "liberal media."

More you:
"I want to see the words of people who are actively campaigning for him, under his direct supervision and, most importantly, payment. Thanks very much."

How was that? obama's karl rove style dirty tricks shop copies and pastes the most vile rat wing talking points, an obama national co-chair and obama SC HQ. Exactly what you were looking for. There is plenty more but if you managed to get this far without noticing chances are you won't notice now.

colleeniem,

You:
"Hadenough, I would like to have cited examples of Obama's campaign in which he uses hatred for political ends."

I already did. From my above post:
"[see the senator punjab memos emailed to the "liberal media" as not for attribution] and had jackson jr. and the SC headquaters screaming racism"

Look them up, educate yourself. Here are some hints: adnag at the nyts outed obama early on. adnag printed emails sent from obama's camp as not for attribution that was just copied and pasted rat wing talking points. Try this in google without the quotes: "obama punjab memo"

More from above:
"and had jackson jr. and the SC headquaters screaming racism after obama lost NH"

RUSSERT: In terms of accountability, Senator Obama, Senator Clinton on Sunday told me that the Obama campaign had been pushing this storyline. And, true enough, your press secretary in South Carolina — four pages of alleged comments made by the Clinton people about the issue of race.

In hindsight, do you regret pushing this story?

OBAMA: Well, not only in hindsight, but going forward. I think that, as Hillary said, our supporters, our staff get overzealous. They start saying things that I would not say. And it is my responsibility to make sure that we’re setting a clear tone in our campaign, and I take that responsibility very seriously, which is why I spoke yesterday and sent a message in case people were not clear that what we want to do is make sure that we focus on the issues.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jan/15/debate-transcript/

And also look up one of obama's national co-chairs jackson jr.s "Hillary didn't cry for New Orleans" comments played endlessly by the fawning "liberal media."

More you:
"I want to see the words of people who are actively campaigning for him, under his direct supervision and, most importantly, payment. Thanks very much."

How was that? obama's karl rove style dirty tricks shop copies and pastes the most vile rat wing talking points, an obama national co-chair and obama SC HQ. Exactly what you were looking for. There is plenty more but if you managed to get this far without noticing chances are you won't notice now.


After reading this all we can hope is that McCain is only playing snuggle up to the GWB policies in order to win the General Election and he will go back to his far more common sense based voting record.

Hillbilly has been very effective is fracturing the Democratic Party fully 40% of all democrats say the will not vote or vote for McCain if their preferred Democratic Candidate doesn't win the nomination. Pretty much makes both absolutely unelectable! Congratulations to Hillbilly and all the Clinton supporters you've not only lost this fall you beloved Hillbilly has destroyed a Major US Political party in the process. This election should have been a shoe in for the democrats now it looks very like John McCain is going to have a 45+ state grand slam...

NOTE TO ATLANTIC: If you preview a comment it posts twice.

I thought Obama did as good a job as could be expected. I suppose if you think Obama injected race into the campaign because he is black then you also think Clinton has injected gender into this race because she is a woman.

I have heard a number of pundits say Obama needs "Reagan Democrats." The concept of "Reagan Democrats" is dated. It was 24 years ago the last time Reagan was on the ballot. How many of the union-factory guys in the industrial midwest are left? There are some but not nearly in the proportion there were in the mid-'80s. It's as dated a question as asking is Sparky Anderson the best manager in baseball? It's a question that has outlived its usefulness.

had enough -

I can go on and on about the hateful message of people like Robertson and Falwell (remember he too blamed our nation’s sins for causing 9/11) and how they are embraced by people like Bush and even invited to pray with him at the White House. I don’t agree with that and I would certainly have a hard time allowing Wright into the White House as well. Just have to wait and see how Obama relates to him in the future but for now, we can certainly say that his rejection of the ideas and beliefs of Wright is something we never heard from Reagan and Bush and other social conservatives about Falwell or Robertson.

Yeah! I was urprised at the vehemence of the earlier posts and you are right, I bet it was from the same ip address. I think the speech was bold and he said what he needed to say. There is plenty to hit mccain on in the general and so I don't quite know if this will be so big then. I am frankly quite bored of the same arguments made over and over and over again. so he sat there and heard hateful, controversial remarks by his pastor and therefore that makes him just like him? crazy. we all supported bill clinton during his philandering days, does it make us all adulterers? just stop this craziness. focus on what matters. If he is our nominee lets coalesce around him. how is she going to win the nomination other than the supers voting for her? then we will hear the endless inanity from the RW that HRC was "selected" and not "elected". they are waiting for that to happen. look what happened with wright, actually helps the argument that we need to tackle this huge elephant in the living room that we have been ignoring. for future leaders who are african american, this must not become an issue. for all those earlier posts about not voting for obama. well, if she gets the nomination, I along with countless obama supporeters too will vote for Mccain. Yep! lets all play into the GOP's hand and have Mccain win in a landslide. wonderful. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. WE HAVE A GREAT NOMINEE IN OBAMA AND WE ARE GOING TO THROW THAT AWAY TO VOTE FOR AN OLD GUY OR GAL? we cannot win without the youth vote and repubs. It is not going to happen with HRC. DEAL WITH IT. OBAMA IS OUR NOMINEE.

NOTE TO HADENOUGH: You're a stupid fuck.

"NOTE TO HADENOUGH: You're a stupid fuck.

Posted by Brother of Tim K"

Have some more kool aid you'll be fine.

On one of the threads yesterday, somebody suggested that robert ethan would me more effective if he spewed his anti-Obama rhetoric under different user names. Looking at the first couple of posts under this thread, looks like he and other trolls got the message!

The speech was a failure if the target was white independent voters. Obama still goes to a church that preaches black liberation theology; most Americans do not support such a theology and won't vote for a President who attends such a church. If you disagree then you need to pop the bubble you're in.

After saying for months that race has no place in the campaign and should not be discussed, Obama now wants to dictate the terms of the discussion. Nice try but sorry elitist snot - you can't tell us what to talk about or how to talk about it. The arrogance is astounding.

And I think he should have gone with ten flags - that would have made him look even more 'Presidential' - the SNL skit practically writes itself. This is becoming a bad joke.

The following quote is from April 11, 2007 as reported by ABC News: "In an interview with ABC News Wednesday afternoon, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., called for the firing of talk radio host Don Imus. Obama said he would never again appear on Imus' show, which is broadcast on CBS Radio and MSNBC television.
"I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus," Obama told ABC News, "but I would also say that there's nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude." "
Double standards don't work for me. It's going to either be Hillary for me or I won't vote for the Presidency.

Glad people spotted the conspiracy at the top of the comments.

I just wanted to request that Marc post on Huckabee's comments on Wright on MSNBC (see Kos or Politico for link) this morning, before he goes away for a week.

I for one will NOT VOTE FOR 2 OLD PEOPLE. The Clintons had their 8 years and Mccain...well. sorry. It is the era of the new. out with the old and in with the new.

Ok, white working class independents and McCain?

Gallup, Zogby, and some CookRT did find an independent shift to McCain, but I'm not sure there's a white working class indies problem. Remember, there are substantial differences between white working class Dems and white working class indies. The latter tend to be cynical about politics. In WP's analysis of independents, nearly fifty percent of the disiullusioned said they wouldn't vote for Hillary!! They're more likely to be older, less educated, and low income.

Obama BOMBED.

Obama gave a great(if selfserving) speech.
Remember Hillary's warning...that he's
just a man of words. Therefore, I think it
is less and less a possibility of seeing
Farrakhan as Secretary of State, Rev. Wright
as WH press secretary, Denny Rodman as defense
secretary, "Dr." Dre as surgeon general, come
next Jan. 20.

A lot of the pundits just focused on the Quality of the Speech and not "did he repair the issue he faced". It's almost as if the Obama cheerleaders are saying they would have welcomed Eliot Spitzer staying on if he managed to deliver a soaring speech of oratorical majesty that failed to mention any flaws in his own judgment and spotlighted the moral equivalency of his wife and his prostitute's flaws as problems "the nation needs to have a dialogue over and move past."

How are her stereotypes and hate speech any less significant just because she's older/white/a woman? Why is that not fair game for criticism? ....Obama loves both his grandmother and his pastor DESPITE their faults, not because of them.
That was, without a doubt, the best speech he could have made at this point. I think the end result, if the pundits can pull their heads out of their asses and stop just talking to each other and start talking to real people, is that folks will start to understand that we're all in it together. No one is blameless, and everyone only has responsibility for one thing: their own actions and beliefs.
Posted by Pete Wann

Except Obama took no responsibility for his grave flaws in judgment sitting 20 years in a nest of black bigotry and not saying a peep about it. The Black Messiah nobly positioned himself above it all as he drew moral equivalency between all the "wrong things" Geraldine Ferraro said about identity politics rewarding her and Obama, and Wrights God Damn America speeches. And casting his grandmother as hurtful and racist - who supported him emotionally and financially all his life after his mother dumped him off so she could have 30 years of what she thought was the exciting Indonesian life - was pretty despicable and the mark of a manipulative ingrate.

Yeah, she apparantly saw something dangerous in a black bum she encountered that she didn't sense in the haole or Hawaiian winos and was scared. And was chastized by her liberal husband and Barry for "stereotyping" - who I guess had yet to experience Jesse Jackson's famous line about being scared when 3 people approach him from behind and feeling relieved when he sees they are white and thus less likely to violently attack him as 3 blacks might. Which is based on blacks being 7 times more likely than a white or Asian to rape or murder, and 15 times more likely to commit armed robbery.

I can see a lot of women not appreciating at all seeing the ward of another woman that accepted the responsibility of raising him and sacrificing huge for him, the de facto Momma - being trashed as "bad" as a preacher who made his living 40 years continually pandering to the anger and racism of his audience...

That is what the pundits and people like Pete Wann miss - the ingratitude of Obama, blaming old females and black separatists for his lack of judgment - anything but accept part of the blame and accountability himself for his own mistakes of association and holding up the indefensible as "from an inspiring person worthy of my deep admiration and respect".

The same people who will punish Obama in the voting booth are the same people that wanted Spitzer to accept responsiblity and who wouldn't have been swayed in the SLIGHTEST if Spitzer had given the most wonderful speech on how he work work to address the failure of others.

I think alex has it closer to right than the original post - the key audience for this speech was not Reagan Dems, but uncommitted superdelegates. They are the name of the game; Senator Clinton needs to persuade them that Senator Obama is unelectable. In that sense, I think we will see that the speech accomplished its goals.

If Hillary Clinton is not the nominee, our family is voting for McCain. The "family" includes my husband and I (lifelong Democrats, baby boomers, graduate degrees, upper middle income) my ex-husband and his wife - lifelong Democrats, former union business agent and Democratic party activists and union worker daughter and son-in-law.

The decision was made prior to the Wright fiasco but this just confirms that we are correct in our assessment of Mr. Obama. He is the racist in the crowd not Bill Clinton and not Hillary Clinton.

And if the delegates are seated from Florida and Michigan, we are changing our voter registration to Independent. End of story.

If Hillary Clinton is not the nominee, our family is voting for McCain.

And if Barack Obama is the nominee, polls show fully 25% of Democrats will vote for McCain. So I guess we're all screwed.

And if the delegates are seated from Florida and Michigan, we are changing our voter registration to Independent. End of story.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, you spoiled little brat.

How can Pelosi and others state that the superdelegates should vote the same as the larger plurality of the pledged delegates?
1. Alaska - Obama received 199 more votes than Clinton. Obama received 5 more delegates than Clinton. If you look at the vote difference, that translates to 1 delegate equals 40 voters.
2. Ohio - Clinton received 228,781 more votes than Obama. Clinton received 9 more delegates than Obama. If you look at the vote difference, that translates to 1 delegate equals 25,420 voters.
3. New Hampshire - 22 delegates; 284,104 total voters. Clinton received 7479 more votes than Obama. Clinton received 0 more delegates than Obama. If you look at the vote difference, that translates to zero delegates equals 7479 voters.
4. Nebraska - 24 delegates; 38,670 total voters. Obama received 13,681 more votes than Clinton. Obama received 8 more delegates than Clinton. If you look at the vote difference, that translates to 1 delegate equals 1710 voters.
Question: How does New Hampshire turn out almost a quarter of a million voters more than Nebraska, yet New Hampshire is allocated 2 less total delegates than Nebraska?
It grieves me to see how we are going to throw away the opportunity to make much needed changes for our country - availability of health and preventive wellness care; steady employment; financial sustenance in retirement; an opportunity for a quality education grades K-college - by being outgamed by David Axelrod. If Clinton is not the Democratic nominee and Obama is the nominee, I will write in Clinton for president and Senator Evan Bayh for vice-president. I will also build on the commitment that I have already from 32 fellow Democrats to grow our write-in campaign. This vote - not exit polls - will demonstrate to Pelosi, Kerry et. al. that a Hillary vote did not become an automatic Obama vote.

There s something remarkably stupid and spoilt about the "If Hillary is not the nominee, I will vote for McCain!" comments. Sentor McCain has been through a lot in his life, and is a fundamentally good person.

But frankly, the people who saying they will vote for him are the most likely to be hurt by his plans for the social safety net and continuing support of the occupation in Iraq. If you are working class, and white, and really, seriously feel that a preacher who went whackadoodle one sunday but is otherwise a good person, who has made it his mission to make black people self reliant and responsible is an impedimet to you voting for Obama, then you were not planning on voting for him- or Clinton, for that matter- sinceshe is not in the (small) lead by now. Go ahead, the media has given you permission to excercise your resentment and anger by not questioning The Man, questioning how you have screwed by corporate malfasaince, or lack of retraining and reinvestment, but by voting for McCain.

Good luck with that.