Pro-Hillary Writers "On Strike" At DailyKos

There's a movement afoot by prominent pro-Clinton diarists at Dailykos.com.

Writes Alegre, in what is now the featured post on the site, one of the founding sound boards of the Democratic netroots movements:

"We are going on strike and taking our writing elsewhere. When and if our beloved community is once more a focal point for Democratic election discussions, we will gladly return."

Alegre has set up "The American Federation of Concerned Bloggers (AFCB)" and has enlisted at least three dozen bloggers.

He writes:

.....Daily Kos and Markos himself no longer adhere to this purpose of electing Democrats. Daily Kos has become an Obama community and discussion of other Democrats is not welcome. We Clinton supporters are continually attacked and even threatened. The atmosphere has become so poisonous that we could do nothing else but take our discussions elsewhere. Places like MyDD.com where Clinton and Obama supporters chat without name calling. Heated discussions sometimes, but we tend to stay respectful of our fellow Democrat's opinions. Our post is currently up on the Recommended List so we must have tapped into something a lot of others have been feeling for quite some time.

The post has generated more than 1100 comments, many of them supportive. ( Finally Someone Fingers the Bolsheviks) Some of them are not. (Not I Clinton has tarnished the word progressive.)

Who Hillary Clinton is and what she represents has been THE debate among Democratic activists for years. It is now THE national debate. The Democratic Party may well come together and support its nominee. But the debate about Clinton, her (and his) politics, the legacy, the tactics -- will endure.

Comments

Shock! No big deal. Kos is very left. So left that it's taken itself out of the mainstream of Dem politics. So left that they are only talking to themselves and so much hubris that they think America is listening.

Posted by linda | March 14, 2008 10:59 PM

Hahahaha. Places like MyDD? No name calling at MyDD??

MyDD is Clinton central!

What a joke.

Posted by Jay | March 14, 2008 11:03 PM

Hahahaha. Places like MyDD? No name calling at MyDD??

MyDD is Clinton central!

Obama has been labeled a terrorist at MyDD. A criminal at MyDD. The affirmative-action candidate at MyDD. Obama supporters have been insulted and berated regularly at MyDD.

What a joke.

A bigger joke is Jerome "Crash the Gate" Armstrong's support of the DLC candidate.

Posted by Jay | March 14, 2008 11:05 PM

I'm not surprised about this either. Rightly or wrongly, Hillary Clinton is divisive as hell, even in her own party.

Posted by alex | March 14, 2008 11:05 PM

alex sums it up nicely: Hillary Clinton divides people and breeds bad feelings wherever she goes. It's her nature.

And look at the viciousness of the Clintonites: it's basically a position of where they will participate only if they get their way. Well, who needs them?
We're better off without this vindictiveness.

Posted by cm | March 14, 2008 11:20 PM

Don't they see that Hillary fomented this? Of course the offending Obama supporters are at fault, but a majority of their actions and comments were surely the result of Hillary's refusal to drop out of a race she can no longer win, but now must steal. Something the Clinton supporters are presumably fine with.

Posted by socctty | March 14, 2008 11:20 PM

I find it amusing that Hillary Clinton's "how DARE you criticize anything I do" attitude is now being reflected by her supporters.

Posted by Kat | March 14, 2008 11:21 PM

It's an Onion article waiting to happen.

Seriously, the Goldberg article others linked to today, about the personal upset at Hillary's turn of events, is relevant here as well. Many of these writers have deeply personal connections to Hillary and they are having a hard time with the math. For a long time, Kos was a free fire zone with Edwards supporters, then Obama became ascendent.

I think that these three weeks before Pennsylvania are important for the Clintonistas because they get to go through the stages of grief. I think this breaks now because the light just keeps getting darker. FL and MI will not come in with all of their delegates, the Superdelegates are not coming in, and Obama has not blown himself up.

I think a lot of Hillary, and Mark Penn's jabs in the last week or so have been to get Obama to over-react. He hasn't. It's bitchslap politics without the flinch.

P.S. I am watching the Wright video now. He is extreme, but if you filter out the hyperbole, I can see how this can resonate. Maybe not with Archie Bunker. Think of the dialogue between Ferraro and Wright. Wright answers Ferraro at full volume, while both candidates can walk away.

Posted by Barr | March 14, 2008 11:22 PM

This is *exactly* what Clinton would do in the GE. A better example couldn't hardly be imagined.

So, she has no chance at the nomination, and her continued candidacy is only going to break the party apart. This is simply exhibit A.

Posted by justinb | March 14, 2008 11:23 PM

Daily Kos: the left:: Grover Norquist: the right. Annoying as hell and needlessly promoting far-left lockstep House candidates in primaries to defeat "DINOs." I use to read Kos, but I am tired of reading about Dem. incumbents who are moderate getting primary challengers.

Posted by John | March 14, 2008 11:31 PM

But Clinton is not who (or what) is doing this. A critical mass of Obama supporters on dailykos took it on themselves to obstruct the efforts of Clinton supporters to communicate ... with each other, with undecideds, or with Obama supporters.

A critical mass of the Admin's decidied to let it happen.

This is about Clinton? No.

Posted by RonK, Seattle | March 14, 2008 11:32 PM

By the way, what is this supposed to accomplish? It does nothing except provide further evidence if Clinton's divisiveness.

And it doesn't seem as if the writer of the blog tried to contact Kos and see if something could be worked out.

The hypocrisy is outstanding. S/he complains about people attacking a good and fine Democrat, as if Clinton hasn't based her entire post-Super Tuesday strategy on that very concept!

What was Kos supposed to do, anyway - block people from making comments? That's not cool.

"I'm taking my ball and going to play somewhere else!" doesn't do anything - it doesn't add to discourse. It merely ratchets it up.

Posted by socctty | March 14, 2008 11:32 PM

The blog world has always been whacky lefty. It was Elmer Sputterin' Fudd who first took advantage of it, and made the mistake of believing that the real world actually paid attention to the blog world. His balloon was burst in a big hurry, followed closely by the next most popular cyber candidate, Wesley Clark.

A recent poll showed that only 1 in 5 likely voters had even read a political blogsite. Of those most only perused them a couple of times per month. So the influence of the "alternative media" is really minimal.

Luckily for Hillary, although she gets violent assault almost as consistently and egrariously from the mainstream media.

Posted by robert ethan | March 14, 2008 11:34 PM

the HRC people are beginning to sound as if they found an old fundamentalist bumper sticker but just changed a word so that now it reads "Hillary said it, I believe it , that settles it."
One simply cannot reason with them. no amount of proof of her prior statements on the Mi vote, no first hand accounts from Sinbad, no pictures, no remarks from Nobel prize winners, nothing.

and now Marc you take these people seriously?

Come on, you write for the Atlantic, one of the oldest intellectual journals in the country and you listen to these people ?

Posted by virginia cynic | March 14, 2008 11:37 PM

Robert Ethan, are you a person or Hillary bot?

Here is why the blogs matter: 170 million.

The greatest surprise of the whole election is that Obama has raised more money and more volunteers than Hillary. That is the blogs.

Posted by barr | March 14, 2008 11:38 PM

Amblinders, you could just as easily title this event -

"Lack of short term stimulation causes HOUSEBOUND RATS to turn on each other in frustration!".

Imagine what it will be like by the time Pennsylvania finally goes to the polls. :(

Posted by robert ethan | March 14, 2008 11:40 PM

Hi Marc - Thank you so much for covering our effort to bring attention to the unfair way Senator Clinton has been treated in this election. The sexist and hateful atomsphere on the blogs has gone unchallenged for too long now and we felt it was time to say "enough!"

We can't do much about how Senator Clinton's treated by the media and the press, but as regular contributors to the blogs out there, we can have an impact there.

Peace,
Alegre
http://HillarysBloggers.com

Posted by Alegre | March 14, 2008 11:40 PM

Who really cares? Let half of daily kos go start up their own blogs in protest. That would make it...like the rest of the blogosphere.

Posted by Kevin | March 14, 2008 11:40 PM

And you're posting about this... why?

Posted by DaveWoo | March 14, 2008 11:42 PM

RonK, Seattle - That's a good point. I don't follow kos enough to realize that was going on. You explained it better than the original "We're leaving!" bit did.

It still, however, doesn't change the fact that none of this would be happening if Hillary would either (A wake up or (B) grow up.

Posted by socctty | March 14, 2008 11:44 PM

On strike? Shit, when did Kos start paying diarists?

Posted by bjd | March 14, 2008 11:45 PM

On strike? Shit, when did Kos start paying diarists?

Heh, good one.

On that note, I would just like to take this opportunity to announce that I am "on strike" from comment posting, as of this moment, right now.

Posted by DaveWoo | March 14, 2008 11:48 PM

Hillary and her supporters need to grow up. This is one more confirmation that Hillary should not get the nomination or be president. She is too polarizing and divisive.

Hillary does not care about the party or the nation; in the end it's always about her from her perspective.

Well, people are seeing through her lies, deceptions, half truths, efforts at intimidations, etc. People, we cannot allow her to steal our hope.

If Hillary had her way, she would crush our hopes and dreams, and just take power and money for her own gain.

Posted by cm | March 14, 2008 11:55 PM

Good writing is hard work and doesn't easily lend itself to falsity. Case in point: when Hillary Clinton’s vast finance department chair, Geraldine Ferraro, parroted the message Hillary herself and hubby Bubba, have been putting forth to discredit Barack Obama on the basis of race, Geraldine’s remarks were intentional. Yet, Geraldine tap-dances around where she could have made the unfortunate utterance, if she did in fact make it, or to whom it might have been made. By publicly disavowing Geraldine’s remark, Hillary Clinton only compounds a very thin transparency. Which begs the question; why not just take responsibility for the racial faux pas? Or, is Geraldine’s comment part and parcel of the attack on Barack Obama’s minister? The Reverend Wright isn't preaching anything that college professors all over America haven't been teaching for decades. Ward Churchill ring any bells? At least he's not asking for a 20-page term paper. On the other hand, Hillary Clinton has had entire books written about her “spiritual life,” and even invented her own college, but neither she nor Bill Clinton ever attend church. Let Barack Obama tell us what he believes. Some folks take longer than others to wise up; the Clintons, both of them, are kryptonite: http://theseedsof9-11.com

Posted by Peggy McGilligan | March 15, 2008 12:02 AM

The sexist and hateful atomsphere on the blogs has gone unchallenged for too long now and we felt it was time to say "enough!"

Stick a fork in it, Alegre. Your holier-than-thou attitude is complete bullshit and you know it. The reason you're almost universally despised on Daily Kos is that you frequently post inaccurate information in your diaries and refuse to correct it when others bring it to your attention.

Posted by asdf | March 15, 2008 12:02 AM

Oh and by the way Marc - not that it's a big part of the story but I'm the working mother of two beautiful, sweet and brilliant children.

So "she" would be the more appropriate pronoun here.

Thanks again,
Alegre
htpp://HillarysBloggers.com

Posted by Alegre | March 15, 2008 12:07 AM

This has to be the most pathetic thing I've ever read. It's almost like watching Hillary's tears in blog form.

Here's a clue Hillary bloggers: no one cares if you go on strike. It's like if just the writers of all those stupid reality shows went on strike. If anything, we'll step up our attacks on Clinton just to keep you pathetic morons from polluting the blogosphere with your filth.

Posted by Mike | March 15, 2008 12:09 AM

In looking through some of these posts I have to say I'm shocked to find that some commenters here are pointing the finger at us.

Would they have us remain at a site where our candidate - a Demorcat - is routinely ridiculed and lied about by other Democrats?

Would they have us continue on at a site where we post something positive and about the issues, only to find others come in with off-topic and often hateful comments?

And you call us divisive?

Alegre
htpp://HillarysBloggers.com

Posted by Alegre | March 15, 2008 12:12 AM

I've been part of the Daily Kos community almost since its inception. It is no longer the diversely rich, tolerant community it once was. The atmosphere has become toxic for all but the most virulent Obama supporters. Sexism is rampant, expletives serve as discussion points, and the hatred directed at Hillary Clinton and her supporters is untenable. Some of the posters here at The Atlantic are typical of the mean-spirited divisiveness that this primary--and not Hillary Clinton--has prompted. If this an example of the "Unity" that Barack Obama inspires, the country is in for an even more rude awakening than we have experienced in the past 24 Jeremiah Wright-filled hours.

Posted by miriam | March 15, 2008 12:14 AM

MyDD.com?

Does that stand for the size of a certain under garment?

Let them decamp and take their racist surrogates like Geraldoyenne with them.

When Hillbilly's people started chanting:

"Yes She Will" in Ohio,

it summarized everything that is different between OBammBamm and her.

OBammBamm people say: "Yes We Can".

I rather belong to a group that takes its members seriously, rather than be a mindless follower of the Great Leader Hillbilly.

Posted by D | March 15, 2008 12:17 AM

Blood. Demo Blood. This is an exercise in fratricide.

Posted by linda | March 15, 2008 12:21 AM

Thank you, Marc, for informing us about this. I left DKos a few weeks ago because the Clintonistas were reduced to whining and trolling as they watched Hillary sling mud. Now I can go back there for at least a week.

Alegre: please be true to your 1-week pledge. Begging you! It's okay to strike for months if this week is successful.

Posted by Arlene | March 15, 2008 12:21 AM

Marc, I like your blog and have been reading it through the entire primary campaign. One of the few, because it's always fair.

To some of the commenters here: This may be news to you, but if Obama supporters on Daily Kos respond to diaries with strings of vicious insults, personal attacks, or (the latest trend) spamming threads with nonsense or pictures to shut down all possibility of debate, this is, in fact, their own fault.

I would like some hopes and dreams from team Obama that don't involve pointing the finger at others and calling them names, please.

Posted by daria g | March 15, 2008 12:24 AM

Just reading these posts makes the case-I've campaigned as a volunteer for Hillary Clinton in Iowa, New Hampshire and Texas and have spent a lifetime (I'm 60) working for many other candidates- Obama supporters have been the rudest, most arrogant and inconsiderate I have ever encountered. They really scare me- this candidate of hope sure breeds disciples of insolence.

Posted by bb | March 15, 2008 12:30 AM

This is really funny!

Posted by bjd | March 15, 2008 12:33 AM

Just today, I was wondering what Hillary will do if, before or during August in Denver, she is confronted with concrete evidence she is not the nominee. If she definitively loses her bid with no reasonable or unreasonable hope of reinstatement. In these circumstances which she is doing everything in her power to thwart, will she be able to accept a reality so brutal? It's not a mean joke -- I truly wonder. It occurred to me she might just campaign on, a revenant unable to find release from the trauma. If so, then she's already got the alternative universe set up in the blogosphere, a cadre of true believers minoritized, ardent and inured now to hard questions. I went to the HillarysBloggers site, BTW -- it's a gingerbread mausoleum with zero to 3 comments per post.

Posted by Elatia Harris | March 15, 2008 12:34 AM

Alegre:

Maybe now you can take your pro-Clintonista spin and dirty tactics where they are obviously welcome: places like MyDD that are openly in the tank for Hillary Clinton, the DLC candidate.

Meanwhile the rest of us are going to keep outing the liar and manipulator that your candidate, Hillary Clinton, is, and work to get the true Democrat in this race, Barack Obama, to the nomination and to the presidency.

GO'Bama '08!

Posted by firebrand | March 15, 2008 12:34 AM

"Marc, I like your blog and have been reading it through the entire primary campaign. One of the few, because it's always fair."

By fair, read transparently pro-Clinton. Given the rest of your missive, I presume that's your meaning.

The fact that he'd even post this story, about some meaningless internecine catfight in one corner of the web where Clinton folk are disgruntled, is Exhibit A.

Again, if y'all don't like dKos, then take your toys and go home. Start your own blogs, and quit whining about it. And I'm not saying this as a fan of dKos -- I've always found it too shrill and echo chamber-y by half -- but don't assume the rest of the world gives a whit about your petty guild-drama-type spats.

Posted by Kevin | March 15, 2008 12:37 AM

I thought Allegre was a she, not a he.

Posted by lampwick | March 15, 2008 12:51 AM

Obama supporters are rude. So are Hillary supporters. Here's a typical conversation:

"Hillary, you're losing. Hang it up, you old bag."

"I can't help noticing the sexist and age-ist note in all the postings by the followers of this jejune, inexperienced, possibly Muslim, empty-shirt upstart."

"Yeah, but Hillary's a bitch, and her husband's an adulterer. Whitewater. Stained Dress."

"Spoken like one of his true, mindless, proto-fascist robot followers."

"Hey she's losing, face it you illogical offensive witch."

"You're clearly a teenage, Prius-driving, latte-sipping bimbo who has no experience with real politics or appreciation for the struggle of women throughout the ages. Someday you may grow up."

"Winning in popular votes, in states won, in delegates. Bitch."

"I and millions like me will never vote for him in the general election."

"I and millions like me will never vote for her in the general election."

Etc., etc., etc.

So now we all retreat to our own corners and talk just to people who agree with us. Whew! Now we can spread malicious gossip about each other unchallenged! About time!

I have to say, though, the reason it's Hillary's supporters leaving this futile and pitiful set of dueling monologues, and not Barack's, is the numbers. They just can't stand hearing the numbers repeated over and over and over. They have to go someplace where that infinitely frustrating issue isn't raised so incessantly. It sounds like they're abandoning the discussion, lame as it is, to go form a support group, which is even lamer.

I'm deeply disappointed in Hillary, quite worried about Barack, and I think they both have a lot of truly moronic supporters; but I like them both enough and will vote for either over McCain and the abysmal morons he will have to represent.

Posted by J. Myers | March 15, 2008 12:52 AM

And I'm not saying this as a fan of dKos -- I've always found it too shrill and echo chamber-y by half -- but don't assume the rest of the world gives a whit about your petty guild-drama-type spats.

Exactly. With this dramatic move, Daily Kos goes from boring and predictable to... still boring and predictable.

I've tried to be as fair-handed as I could throughout the primary, and I'm still of the opinion that both candidates are much better people than their supporters much of the time, but to call dKos a cesspool of Clinton-hatred is petulant nonsense.

I mean, the support over there is slanted, no doubt. It's pretty obvious. But to call it unhinged and discriminatory is totally disingenuous. Andrew Sullivan and TalkLeft are unhinged. There's a big, big difference.

That being the case, I don't see how leaving is productive. Isn't that just taking the easy way out? dKos still seems like one of the best possible places to sway people from Obama to Clinton supporters, if that's the goal. If the site was just an echo-chamber before, this doesn't change that; it can only make it worse. What's the point?

Posted by Adam | March 15, 2008 12:53 AM

Also, this isn't new. It was the Dean/Clark/etc. nonsense at dKos last time around that made me stop reading it in the first place. The place has been and always will be an echo-chamber; people just get mad when it stops being *their* echo-chamber.

Posted by Adam | March 15, 2008 12:59 AM

I think there's a threshold at which a site becomes an echo-chamber to the point where no one persuadable is still around, so it's counterproductive to spend your time there trying.

Posted by daria g | March 15, 2008 1:00 AM

Don't listen to Adam. Talkleft is a great site. It's the only place where Obama and Clinton supporters can have a reasonable debate, because the moderation of comments is very diligent.

Posted by MarkL | March 15, 2008 1:03 AM

The animosity between the Obamites and the Clintonites has its roots in the flap over the Michigan and Florida delegates. That is the point at which the conversation became toxic. Hillary tried to claim that she deserved those delegates, even though the 2 elections were clearly bogus (the voters and the candidates were both told beforehand that the results would not count.)

Hillary's cheezy and transparently self-serving manuever is what set off the Obama people (me included.) You can't have a civil conversation with someone whose values are so dismissive of the basic principles of fairness and ethics. I lost all respect for Clinton and her supporters at that moment.

Posted by cosmo | March 15, 2008 1:10 AM

Alegre & Miriam

Your comments about the divisiveness of the Obama bloggers are so accurate. I sometimes wonder if they are Republicans in disguise.

CM & Firebrand

SNL nailed this Democratic race. Even with the media bias, Obama's millions, and the Cyberbullies, Hillary has held her own in this race. The NYT ran a good investigative piece about Obama's "minor role" in the Senate.

He has no track record of reaching out and getting things done in Washington. Obama avoids controversy in legislative battles, and only comes out to support an issue once it's safe. The Iraq War is a good example. According to the NYT, "He voted against the withdrawal of troops and proposed legislation calling for a drawdown only after he was running for president and polls showed voters favoring it."

If anyone has lied in this race, it's Obama. In South Carolina, he stated that his relationship with Rezko amounted to 5 hours of legal work for the poor. Yet, Rezko has given $250,000 to his campaign and helped with the purchase of Obama's home.

The remarks by his minister is very racist. Obama has been attending this church for twenty years. He is part of the culture of that separatist church.

The Democratic race is going to be a street fight. Hillary's Team does not take anything for granted.

Go Hillary!!!!!

Posted by EWard | March 15, 2008 1:16 AM

I fucking hate the Judean People's Front.

Posted by People's Front of Judea | March 15, 2008 1:17 AM

I'm afraid you'll have to speak up, Alegre. There are hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis who can't hear you.

Posted by ML | March 15, 2008 1:18 AM

Yes, you can really see in the comments the Obama supporters. Just chock full of substance and good analysis, like this one:

"Maybe now you can take your pro-Clintonista spin and dirty tactics where they are obviously welcome: places like MyDD that are openly in the tank for Hillary Clinton, the DLC candidate."

Yes, insightful and stimulating discourse; just like what you find on DKos. Actually, this is one of the least interesting, most others have much more colorful language.

Posted by alexei | March 15, 2008 1:19 AM

if there is a better example of washington and tocqueville being dead on about political parties, i don't now what it is. i am so very happy to be neither a democrat or republican right now.

Posted by eska | March 15, 2008 1:20 AM

You know what's odd? The media and the Hillary supporters are demanding the Obama disavow his relationship with his Pastor. Yet nobody is calling for Hillary to denounce and divorce her husband, who is well known as a serial adulterer. Why aren't the religious zealots and all of Hillary's Catholic supporters up in arms about the fact that HRC continues to co-habitate with someone who disrespects the sacred institution of marriage?

Posted by cosmo | March 15, 2008 1:21 AM

Fuck you, deviationist.

Posted by Judean People's Front | March 15, 2008 1:23 AM

also: pots and kettles on the whole "the other candidate's supporters don't support their argument" and "if this is what the other candidate's supporters say, then i weep for america" gambits.

Posted by eska | March 15, 2008 1:25 AM

I think the roots are we both want our candidate to win but only one can.

Posted by Tim K | March 15, 2008 1:27 AM

Cosmo, there you go again---insulting the voters of FL and MI.
It's not THEIR fault the DNC screwed them. Every vote of theirs was made with an intent to be counted. Both delegations must be seated, if the Democratic party wants to win in November.Anyway, what's the problem.. the Obama people say he's already run away with the race.

Posted by MarkL | March 15, 2008 1:29 AM

"I think the roots are we both want our candidate to win but only one can."

That, or one candidate has already won and the other -- and her supporters -- just can't seem to internalize that fact.

Y'all did hear Speaker Pelosi today, yes? She -- like Biden, Richardson, Clyburn, and Van Hollen before her -- reaffirmed that the supers will follow the pledged delegate leader, regardless of the popular vote.

Sen Clinton is not -- I repeat, not -- going to win the remaining 10 states 70-30, as she needs to do to retake the pledged lead. Even her own campaign has conceded the pledged delegate count.

It's over.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/03/pelosis-delegat.html

Posted by Kevin | March 15, 2008 1:33 AM

MarkL,

Did you actually read my post? In what way did I insult the voters of FL and MI? Of course they have been the victims of this ridiculous rules snafu in the Democratic Party. But the answer to the problem isn't to seat those delegates to Hillary Clinton's benefit. Either we hold full and fair elections, or the delegates get split 50-50. But giving them to Clinton when everyone was told that those elections would not count would be an outrage that would spell the end of the Democratic Party as we know it. Let me know if you need further clarification.

Posted by cosmo | March 15, 2008 1:40 AM

Cosmo,
What if terms for a revote cannot be agreed to in time? Then do you favor disenfranchisement?
BOTH elections were held on equal footing, IMO: Florida, obviously--- in fact, Obama advertised there; in MI, Obama backers told his supporters to vote undecided, so the intent of those votes is clear as well. It looks like MI may have a revote, FL not. That would be fine, because there is no legitimate reason to exclude the FL votes.
In fact, look how screwy the caucuses were in several other states. The FL election went quite smoothly; it should be included.

By the way, there's no logic in connecting the message that the elections wouldn't count, and Hillary. The people didn't vote for Hillary because the votes wouldn't count---that's ridiculous.

Posted by MarkL | March 15, 2008 1:45 AM

What a crock.
A couple dozen bloggers (most of whom had already left in a huff over the past couple of months), out of over 150,000 REGISTERED users, throw a hissy-fit and refuse to blog on the site anymore. Who cares? There are over 100,000 other bloggers there to quickly fill any miniscule void they may leave. The only reason they made it to the rec list is they emailed a Clinton supporters list to ask folks to come rec it. Laughable. Good Riddance.

Posted by Over It | March 15, 2008 1:49 AM

We have at last found a moment where Robert Ethan looks reasonable and witty.

I smell Onion.

Posted by barr | March 15, 2008 1:49 AM

"It's clear: This election they're having is not going to count for anything. I personally did not think it made any difference whether or not my name was on the ballot." -- Hillary Clinton on Michigan, 2007.

Well, at least she was right then.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19188859

Posted by Kevin | March 15, 2008 1:51 AM

Cosmo

The United States has a history of electing a President with a flawed marriage. Both FDR and JFK had affairs, and no one demanded that Eleanor or Jackie should leave their husbands.

Posted by EWard | March 15, 2008 1:52 AM

"Don't listen to Adam. Talkleft is a great site. It's the only place where Obama and Clinton supporters can have a reasonable debate, because the moderation of comments is very diligent."

Unintentional irony of this comment aside, this is really not the case, except to the extent that their moderation is basically tantamount to censorship, which is what accounts for the usual lack of flamewars.

But the more basic reality is that Obama supporters aren't represented on the site for much the same reason that Clinton supporters aren't well-represented at DailyKos -- it is not a reasonable atmosphere. The people making a good-faith effort to represent the opposing viewpoint left long ago.

Their coverage has also not been remotely even-handed. As a particularly egregious example, in this post from the other day, Armando makes an extraordinarily disingenuous argument against an otherwise very even-handed post by hilzoy from ObWi, in the process making at least 4 arguments regarding the DNC delegate rules that are facially incorrect -- but you wouldn't know that without actually reading them. Armando is a lawyer. He knows better than that.

This is a really specious claim, at any rate. TalkLeft, Taylor Marsh, et al., have been at least as notorious throughout the primary as dKos, Andrew Sullivan, etc. No one is going to any of those sites to get objective analysis right now.

I will say for TalkLeft that they do seem to be leaving the door open to support Obama if he wins, but I think you could say the same about Kos w/r/t Clinton. (Though you probably couldn't say the same about the supporters on either site.) I don't think the same is true of Andrew Sullivan, but... I mean, that's not exactly surprising.

Posted by Adam | March 15, 2008 1:52 AM

Hooray! The retard contingent is going elsewhere! Maybe they can strike forever and save us from their insipid drivel.

Posted by obscure | March 15, 2008 1:56 AM

Would they have us remain at a site where our candidate - a Demorcat - is routinely ridiculed and lied about by other Democrats?

-Allegre

Oh spare me!! You are one of the more divisive bloggers on Daily Kos! You just chose to ridicule and lie about Obama instead of Hillary. Not only that, you are perfectly content hanging out in the cesspools of Taylor Marsh's and HIllaryis44.com....NOTHING there but ridicule and lies about other Democrats to be found there. MyDD is better...but, there is O'plenty Obama bashing to be had there. Far more than any Hillary bashing on Daily Kos. You are a flaming hypocrite. Thank you for making my evening entertaining...I have laughed till tears have come to my eyes. You will not be missed...but, once Obama is the nominee and the General is on...you will probably be welcomed back by the vast majority. I, though, will always laugh from here on out when I see your name.

Posted by Over It | March 15, 2008 1:58 AM

MarkL,

"Cosmo, there you go again---insulting the voters of FL and MI.
It's not THEIR fault the DNC screwed them. Every vote of theirs was made with an intent to be counted. Both delegations must be seated, if the Democratic party wants to win in November.Anyway, what's the problem.. the Obama people say he's already run away with the race."

Seriously, what are you talking about?

The DNC decision was made in late 2007.

The DNC rules from April even preempt the objection that the legislatures might not follow the rules and explicitly ask the state Democratic parties to submit alternate plans that can be used if the state rules conflict with the DNC rules. They never did.

No one forced their hand here. This is all solely on the heads of the state Democratic officials. They were aware of the consequences months and months in advance. They were well aware that the entire national party wasn't willing to push any primaries up any further for very obvious reasons.

They're the ones who screwed their constituents -- not the Obama campaign, not the DNC, and not the Florida Republican legislators. You are making a demonstrably false argument.

Posted by Adam | March 15, 2008 2:05 AM

Writes Jeff Lieber, in what is now the featured post on the site, one of the founding sound boards of the Democratic netroots movements:

go out and picket and walk a line for a bunch of months and don't have any money coming in and spend nights trying to figure out if and when you'll ever work again and if your friends will ever work again and receive crying phone calls from crew members who have to sell their house and leave the business because they didn't have savings to cover their asses when things got really bad and have screaming fights with people who you've know all your life about whether or not what your UNION is doing is good for the industry or bad for the industry and have neighbors in a panic because their health insurance is about to go away because they haven't made the yearly minimum and take a hundred phone calls from your family asking again and again whether or not you're going to be alright and hold fundraisers for people you don't even know and lobby congress and Wall Street and any one who will listen that the companies you are fighting are REALLY monopolies willing to crush workers rights for profit and try every day just not to go insane from the sheer boredom of waiting for your life to restart.

That's a WRITER'S STRIKE.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/14/20500/0294/96/476871

Posted by hibob | March 15, 2008 2:21 AM

Over It

Using words such as "cesspools" and "flaming hypocrite" are fighting words to my ears. It shows how little you respect the voters.

You really make the case against an Obama nomination! Keep up the good work.

Go Hillary!!!!

Posted by EWard | March 15, 2008 2:23 AM

Using words such as "cesspools" and "flaming hypocrite" are fighting words to my ears.

-EWard

Dude...you must get into a lot of fights.

I call 'em like I see 'em. Taylor Marsh's blog and Hillaryis44.com ARE cesspools. Both sites are chock full of hateful vitriol against fellow Dems. As far as 'flaming hypocrite'...the fact that Alegre cries about the horrible way a Democrat (Hillary) is treated at Daily Kos, yet, continues to support such sites as mentioned above (that treat a Democrat...Obama...far worse) makes her a hypocrite. I added flaming as an adjective because of her over the top martyr-like method of exhibiting her hypocrisy.

The irony of a Hillary supporter pointing fingers about showing little respect for the voters is hugely ironic. Especially since I come from one of the States that 'don't matter' according to the Hillary Campaign.

As to my working towards an Obama nomination....I voted for Edwards and will vote for the Dem in the General.

Don't worry, though, I shall keep up the Good Work.

Posted by Over It | March 15, 2008 2:40 AM

Adam,
Your post is non-responsive. The issue is whether the votes should be counted. The RULES allow them to be counted; the obvious benefit of actually counting votes outweighs the problem of hypocrisy and unevenness. By the way, I am sure you know that other states broke the rules as well, but Obama supporter Donna Brazile only penalized MI and FL, for obvious reasons.

Posted by MarkL | March 15, 2008 2:40 AM

The Looney Left is way overrepresented on the blogsites. Not just Moulitas the Miniscule Mouthpeice, but the gossip hag/fag sites like Huff'n'puff Retort, Drivel'n'Sludge, Dowdy Ol' Mo, Anal Andy Sullivan, etc. Most of them are Retro 60s former Deanies with an orange toque buried in their closet somewhere.

They all jumped on on the bandwagon of the New Messiah, but the sheer weight of their MANIC FERVOR is likely to send this Vehicle careening off the cliff with only a LONG DRAWN OUT SCREAM to mark it's passing, as happened with the last.

Posted by robert ethan | March 15, 2008 2:51 AM

"By the way, I am sure you know that other states broke the rules as well, but Obama supporter Donna Brazile only penalized MI and FL, for obvious reasons."

Whoa. You stepped off the edge into conspiracyland there. Evidence, please.

1. What other states broke the rules, and how?

2. How did Donna Brazile dictate the penalties, past Howard Dean, Harold Ickes, and the rest of the DNC?

Posted by Kevin | March 15, 2008 2:52 AM

Same here. Stopped reading Daily Kos when it all became hate-hillary-all-the-time. And god forbid, I've found fairer Hillary coverage on FoxNews than I have the other cable networks!! Hell has frozen over, but among TPM, DKos, HuffPost, WashMonthly, and FireDogLake, they're looking for every excuse to give Obama a Reagan-like teflon slide straight to the presidency.

I'm sticking to Taylor Marsh and Larry Johnson through the general election.

Posted by zaine_ridling | March 15, 2008 2:54 AM

I shudder to imagine what people in other parts of the world must think when they pick up their morning paper and read that Democrats in the USA are actually having a conversation about whether to count the votes from an election in which the candidates and the voters were told the results would not matter.

Posted by cosmo | March 15, 2008 2:58 AM

Zaine, if you were trying to say you found all those other sites too biased to be worth anything, you didn't help your case one bit by bringing up Taylor Marsh and Larry Johnson. They're Exhibit A and B in stark, raving pro-Clinton lunacy.

Why not broaden your horizons? TNR, TPM, Rural Votes?

Posted by Kevin | March 15, 2008 2:59 AM

From a commenter on Daily Kos:

AFCB = A Few Cry Babies

Rather appropriate, I'd say.

Posted by Kysen | March 15, 2008 3:03 AM

What a huge collective hissyfit. Lovely. It's not enough that TalkLeft and MyDD have become strong pro-Hillary sites, because there's a counter-consolidation at DKos, they're doing a massive GBCW and trying to put lipstick on their pig.

Frankly, if half the names I saw in their list stop talking, it'll help raise the discourse.

Posted by Chris | March 15, 2008 3:04 AM

Kevin, you didn't read my post did you? That you call Marsh and Johnson "stark, raving pro-Clinton lunacy" proves the point. And I did mention TPM. Isn't TNR the Lieberman part of politics? Oy.

God forbid anyone disagree with an Obama supporter. I proudly will never vote for him, and if he gets the nomination, I will register as an independent. You guys talk of Obama just like the god-believers talk of religion. Or better, Obama support mimics most of the tactics the Scientologists use.

Say NO to L. Ron Obama!

Posted by zaine_ridling | March 15, 2008 3:17 AM

Riight. Well, Zaine, you're the one advocating cutting off your nose to spite your face in November, just because you lost the election. So who's the Kool Aid drinker here?

Posted by Kevin | March 15, 2008 3:22 AM

Over It

Read the 245+ comments in the "Current" about Obama and his minister. They are overwhelmingly against your candidate. Even the ones that voted for him have second thoughts about his judgment and electability.

Posted by EWard | March 15, 2008 3:31 AM

EWard:

Learn to read.
I am/was an Edwards supporter who will support the Democrat in the General. I have problems with both Obama and Hillary AND their supporters. I just HATE hypocrisy...and holier-than-thou'ness...and that is what I have spoken out against here in this thread. Frankly, I don't give a shit about what 245 comments say about Obama's minister. They will not change the fact that I will vote for the Democrat in the General. Can you say the same?

Posted by Over It | March 15, 2008 3:40 AM

Oh God. The DKos adolescents---from both sides---have invaded another decent, rational blog and started up with their I-have-no-life-I-live-on-the-Internet childish namecalling.

Welcome, Alegre. Most of us left DKos long, long ago. And Kos has no idea how many will never, never return.

Posted by Mary | March 15, 2008 3:48 AM

Half a year ago, DailyKos was praising Clinton for not removing her name from the Michagan ballot and all the talk bout how the DNC is affecting democracy, etc....... how times have changed!!! Now Dailykos is just about the Clinton bashing and about the so called 'following the rules' and the 'game'.

Well folks, election is not a game. It's about life and about democracy. I don't see the DailyKos talking about Obama supporters trying to distrupt a revote in Michigan and Florida. Fair and balance... neh!!! I used to read the dailykos daily for over a year and i stopped doing that about a month ago when i clearly see that it became an anti-Hillary blog rather than for progressive ideas. Though i might disagree with some of Mark's view point.. at least he's giving both sides to tell their stories and not trying to go after one candidate with lies and not facts.

This is the rift that the Democrats are afraid to create with a prolong primaries. Just like how the Obamamaniacs will not vote for Hillary, a few months ago, almost all Hillary supporters will vote for Obama, now that numbers are reduce by almost half. I know many who has voted democratic all their life, and in this election for the first time have doubts in their votes and will make no difference to Obama and we are talking about the Bay Area.

Clinton has fought for alot of our progressive ideals even before it became a norm. The only mistake that she made was her Iraq war vote. Don't you think that she has done a lot more good? Many things that she has done has made a positive impact in our lives and she deserves respect for those. She had taken 16 years of Republican hits so she can initiate progressive policies for that she deserves our respect. That's all i have to say.

Posted by STevenT | March 15, 2008 3:52 AM

The Obamamaoists waving in rage their little orange diaries made me sickened of the "left" there. So I left. DKos degenerated into what may be the first rampant self-selecting online mob. It's only saving grace was that yeah it could pillory and light the auto de fa but at least it's victims could escape.

Reminded me of The Nation in the late '90s - unthinking, aprincipled, irrelevant, past masters of the circular firing squad and a deepening parody of Scholastic dogmatism. Talk about moral vanities of the bonfire.

Soon they'll degenerate into year long doctrinal disputations of Pacifica Radio, well of Air America Radio at this point hehe.

Posted by Jay, Massachusetts | March 15, 2008 5:35 AM

As for the "Jay" above who spoke of MyDD. That's a fairly evenly mixed community. It is an overall decent, civil community. In my own experience I've only seen insults cast about by the Obama types. I've been called "pussy", Benedict Arnold, "moron" etc...Generally I'll make one foray at discourse but after the second insult in the sub-thread I've let it go. I could really care if the Obama person thinks they've won a thread war.

I got over the kind of angry mob mutual vituperation at my first protest rally my freshman year. No point yelling back and forth. That's not civic discourse that's pointless discharge.

Posted by Jay, Massachusetts | March 15, 2008 6:26 AM

MyDD is no longer an "overall decent civil community

MyDD is literally full of anti-Obama attacks. Not just in the dairies, but on the front page posts by Jerome Armstrong.

For example, a frequent poster claimed that Obama is guilty of CHILD ABUSE.

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/3/13/175342/104/44#44

Posted by Anonymous | March 15, 2008 6:39 AM

The victim card rears its whiny head once again.

Posted by Jack | March 15, 2008 7:42 AM

Are we forgetting that we are democrats? That the economy has tanked, there is a war and a torrid last 8 years. To those, who say, I will not vote for either candidate need to straighten out.
I'm a Obama supporter, but whoever the nominee is. I don't want another Republican in office.

Posted by Kelly Pierce | March 15, 2008 8:04 AM

I've never been impressed by Obama. Thought his speeches came off like a marketing scam with no basis in reality.

I read that the campaign emphasized emotion over substance in their presentation and you can sure see that in the passion of his supporters.

I'm for Hillary because I found only an "empty suit" when I looked at Obama.

Reality vs. fantasy.

Posted by Margy | March 15, 2008 8:16 AM

Thanks for posting this here. Obama and his supporters have divided this party and I resent it. It was he who brought race and gender in to this race. A

I do not blame the Hillary bloggers. Let dkos look like even more of an echo chamber than it already is.

Posted by TeresaINPa | March 15, 2008 8:19 AM

Oh, KKKlinton and MKKKain cry babies! Who cares!

Posted by Obama08 | March 15, 2008 8:25 AM

These diarists, particularly Alegre, are more accurately described as "anti-Obama." There is very little positive pro-Hillary content that comes from these characters. Their "strike" is a blessing.

Posted by Klaus | March 15, 2008 8:29 AM