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The Score Card

16 Apr 2008 10:01 pm

Keeping the score card, there's no way Obama could fared worse. Nearly 45 minutes of relentless political scrutiny from the ABC anchors and from Hillary Clinton, followed by an issues-and-answers session in which his anger carried over and sort of neutered him. But Hillary Clinton has a Reverse-Teflon problem: her negatives are up, and when she's perceived as the attacker, the attacks never seem to settle on Obama and always seem to boomerang back on her. So it would be unwise to declare that Hillary "won" the debate in the dynamic sense just yet. (How much money will Obama raise off this debate? $3m million? $4 million?)

A lot of stuff that Obama doesn't Pennsylvanians to think about were the subject of fairly detailed questions. Obama's supporters are already blaming the "establishment" -- that is, the powerful institution of the mainstream media -- for the tone of the debate. This sets up a blowback scenario wherein his supporters will rally to his defense and lash out at the media very loudly. But Obama's going to be the next president of the United States, maybe. The most powerful person in the world. And questions about his personal associations, his character, his personal beliefs, his statements at private fundraisers -- the answers to these questions tell us a lot. Sometimes the questions are unfair (( -- nothing about Colombia and Mark Penn -- )), but this ain't Pop Warner; the artificial distinction between politics, personality and policy doesn't exist in this league, and if you're uncomfortable with it, then change the rules or don't run for office.

But let's stipulate, for a moment and for the sake of argument only, that the ABC moderators were tone-deaf: that doesn't excuse Obama's performance. (If you think the MSM is ornery, wait until president Obama confronts Congress!) Obama's supporters like to see him fight back against the Man... witness his quick response to "bittergate".....; tonight, it seemed as if he was surprised by the pace of the questions and all the air was gone from his answers. There was no fight. Unless you paid attention, you might have missed a few firsts: the first time the candidates debated gun control. The first time that Obama attacked Clinton about her husband's pardon. Obama's floating the idea that he would exempt workers who make between $97,000 and $200,000 from his payroll tax hike.

The introduction of ex-Weatherman William Ayers into the mainstream of the debate (wasn't that Sean Hannity's question). Tax pledges by Clinton and Obama. Insinuations by both Democrats that they would not accept the advice of generals and admirals who urged them to keep troops in Iraq. My guess is that the debate helps Clinton marginally in Pennsylvania ... and is a mixed bag outside of Pennsylvania... where many Dems will be troubled by Obama and his performance... and others troubled by the attacks against Obama and what they say about the media....

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Comments (371)

George Stephanpolous and Charlie Gibson acted like Iraqi Information Minister "Baghdad Bob".

Shame on ABC.

Shame on George Stephanpolous.

Shame on Charlie Gibson.

This was outrageous. They all need to apologize to all.

Do you know what, probably Charlie and George have flag pin tatooed on their as*es.

This is setting up to be the NH Edwards/Obama gang-up blowback in reverse. Remember how the moderators and the men ganged up on Clinton and then women rallied to Clinton. Clinton looked terrible and chastened in the debate because she was attacked viciously. But undecided voters in NH were horrified at her treatment and rallied to her defense. I now know how NH women thought that night. Obama will get a sympathy bounce.

Losers: All of us who watched this debate thinking it would be informative

I doubt anyone bothered watching the second half. Clinton was totally repulsive in the first half, I don't think she converted any undecideds.

The whole thing was a disgrace. Stephanopolous was Clinton PR hack, and he still is. But I never knew he was a Sean Hannity PR hack. "Charlie" Gibson should stick to GMA.

> The most powerful person in the world. And
> questions about his personal associations, his
> character, his personal beliefs, his
> statements at private fundraisers -- the
> answers to these questions tell us a lot.

Marc, give us an example of similar scrutiny given o McCain by media. Can you? Media licks McCain all over all the time. Doesn't it?

Great Night for Hillary. Obama just can't take the heat like she can. He will be destroyed by the republicans. He was just awful tonight.

I am very much for Obama, but he was bad tonight. Period. This can happen, and there is no reason to blame the journalists.
He had learned a lot since his first debate, but tonight, maybe he was tired or what, he was reeling.

He'll be better next time.

I wouldn't be surprised if Obama garners a sympathy bounce from tonight's debacle, er, debate, much like Clinton received in New Hampshire. Everyone in America is sick of the Washington press corps, and this can only redound to his benefit.

No matter who any of us support, any defense of this disgusting performance on the MSM's part - no matter which candidate it may have been launched against - is flat out wrong. There are NO standards anymore for media, and no ethics. I agree that any "presumptive nominee" should be prepared to take questions, but to ask him about attenuated relationships and to boldly question his patriotism based on ridiculous attacks by racists is giving credit where it should never be due. Have some standards, Marc - you just went down a few notches in my book.

This has to be the most BS debate I've ever seen. It was absolutely wretched. And, you're damn skippy I've emailed and called ABC on this farce. And, it was indeed, a farce.

Guys, chill out. ABC is responding to the voters. Didn't you see that 81%-wrong-track poll? The top issues concerning voters were, if I recall correctly:

Bitterness
Bosnia in 1995
Affirmative action
60's radicals and their influence on our culture

Stop blaming reporters, people!

It was Gerorge Steph and Sean Hannity ganging up on Obama on behalf of Hillary.

They all showed true their true colors.

I think you may be a bit tone-deaf about the reaction to this debate Marc (who I really respect and generally agree with). I have a feeling that this will come off much worse for ABC than anyone else. Just a guess, but I think that this was beyond what should be expected from the MSM or anyone else - as your own Sean Hannity comment indicates. This was a pitiful display of "journalism" and an even more pitiful example of a "debate."

It's telling even the Obamabots admit he had a bad night. They've just come up with a reason why it's really not his fault.

Two things...
Obama seems to have taken a step back in his debating style with the long layoff. He's right back to his early jittery performances that leave him pausing a lot, losing the substance of his words. Voters wanted a strong and form rebuttal to the Rev. Wright and SanFran remarks controversy, not stuttering and casual ramblings.

But Hillary always loses when she attacks. She seemed over-the-top in her oppo and could be viewed by cynics as only helping McCain win.

http://www.political-buzz.com/

I missed the first part where the moderators asked, so I read, about frickin' flag pins and some Weather underground old guy and ....? What the heck? How about health care guys? Global warming? Iraq? Hello?!

I think if Obama kept his cool and made some points along the way then he did just fine, given the pathetic, sub-Fox level of this line of questioning.

I don't think Obama was that bad tonight considering the gang-up against him. He didn't look like he was hard-charging but who would be? The loser was the media. And the winner was McCain.

Elrod ... my thoughts exactly. Maybe I am trying to make myself feel better but this felt exactly like the CLinton pile-on felt before NH. This and Bittergate give a big whiff of "media attacking Obama:

I doubt that you can find many precedents where any candidate was attacked so viciously in a debate by both the opponent AND the moderators. And I doubt that you can find any candidate, ever, who was able to look good in the face of those kind of attacks. The most gifted politician/orator/debater in the history of western civilization couldn't have emerged unscathed from such a vicious mugging.

Talk about blaming the victim; you are a disgusting pig who is, like most of the media, obviously in the tank for McCain. Well enjoy the wreck that McCain will make of this country, fat boy.

Stephanpolus and Gibson acted like a pimps for Clinton Inc. Shame on them.

NO! BAD MEDIA!

Also the following is a circular argument : we have to talk about this trivial fluff because we're going to keep talking about trivial-fluff! That's stupid beyond the ability of mere words to express.

Actually, I think this debate might be very, very good for Obama. He was the only person on TV tonight not willing to play this ridiculous gotcha game. When he had the chance to go after Hillary on Bosnia he chided the moderators for being so trivial instead. If people are tired of this kind of media driven crap and wanting to hear about real issues, that stands out.

ABC doesn't know it, but they just did Obama a huge favor by being so flagrantly biased against him.

Obama looked Presidential and mature. The moderators and Hillary looked like petty scolds.

I am a hardcore Obama supporter and I am delighted that ABC and HIllary totally overplayed their hands.

Marc, give us an example of similar scrutiny given o McCain by media. Can you?

Given the heavy advantages for the Democrats this cycle, it may be inevitable, and perhaps even appropriate, that Obama face heavier scrutiny than John McCain. Media people are only human, after all, and understandably focus more on the person who the better chance at becoming president. In many ways, the Democratic race feels like the general election. And at any rate, media scrutiny of Hillary Clinton has been absolutely ferocious for many months. If you can't take the heat...

But Hillary always loses when she attacks.

Nonsense. Her withering attack on Obama during Naftagate certainly helped her in Ohio, Rhode Island, and Texas. You're seeing this election through your own Obama-colored glasses. But working class folks in Bitterville, USA like a fighter.

Complete hatchet job -- and shameful of you, Marc, to suggest anything otherwise.

ABC did an excellent job running the debate tonight.

I was shocked at Hillary's performance - I thought for sure she would come out with the claws tonight. But the woman actually came across as - dare I say? - sincere and presidential.

Barack stumbled all over the place. He's living in a fantasy world if he thinks the Republicans will be nice to him. It was like he was shocked he was getting hard questions. It's probably the same distorted view he has about getting everyone to want to work together with him in harmony if president. There will be times when he'll need to be tough if president and tonight he floundered.

Not to give too many compliments to Clinton. But tonight was a debate where specifics and a showing of each candidates' understanding - and not just general rhetoric - was seeked by ABC. On this front Clinton could show she is more knowledgable on the issues and her plans. It's a fact.

Obama came off as a decent guy with good intentions who doesn't know much.

What did I miss? I don't think Obama performed nearly as terribly as Marc appears to be convinced that he did — the entire debate, he was the only one even remotely attempting to rise above the petty, ridiculous politics that the public abhors. He wasn't fully able to escape it considering he was facing a full-on assault from every single person on the stage tonight, plus Sean Hannity and John McCain in absentia, but he certainly did as best he could. Neither Senator Clinton nor ABC could have possibly looked worse in this debate, and I think that's going to be borne out in the next few days.

who I really respect and generally agree with

Oh come off it. Fat boy obviously wants McCain to win so bad he can taste it. Which is a particulary apt way to put it considering how far Ambinder's tongue is up McCain's ass

I'm with Ed: what I'm getting (having followed online; I don't have a tv) is fury at ABC and their incredibly low opinion of us. The audience booed the moderators.

Halperin gave both Bs--no major slip ups. No one is arguing that Obama was brilliant. But I think the big story out of this debate will be "Do they really think we're a bunch of morons?"

Most people will recognize that was a shameful display ABC. Alot of Dems will be put off by Clinton's attacks. As usual the MSM (oh, and bloggers like you) will sputter about how much this is going to hurt Obama. Nothing much will change from tonight.

This was a drive-by, not a debate. It was not Clinton vs. Obama, but ABC (Stephanopolous) versus Obama. A complaint should be filed with the FCC.

"if you're uncomfortable with it, then change the rules or don't run for office."

Obama's trying to change the rules, Marc. That's one of the reasons i'm voting for him.

Marc, the two MSNBC debates were complete hit jobs against Hillary, the most recent of which was so bad, SNL parodied it. (The previous week's debate on CNN was, I thought, more fair.)

The point is, like you said, tough questions are going to come, and it shouldn't all be on one side. To this point, I believe it has been.

So, it's only fitting that the score be evened at a point when Obama is the clear frontrunner with a 95 percent plus chance of winning the nomination. I think this has been one of the fairest debates yet.

I would encourage Obama supporters to try to climb out of their fanaticism for just a few moments, and try to look at all this fairly. You can't hoot when Hillary gets socked, and cry when Obama does. It's just hypocritical and babyish. If the guy can't take a shot, better to find it out now.

While George went on right-wing TV and radio to get hit topics about Obama and shelled him for an hour, it doesn't matter. The game is over and no one can knock him out.

Frankly I don't care how either of them fared in this debate, because the entire thing focused on meaningless trivia rather than on anything that matters.

"Sue" said it the best

"I would encourage Obama supporters to try to climb out of their fanaticism for just a few moments, and try to look at all this fairly. You can't hoot when Hillary gets socked, and cry when Obama does. It's just hypocritical and babyish. If the guy can't take a shot, better to find it out now."

I wonder how many people actually watched this debate. I consider myself a political junkie but just couldn't stomach watching it, so I jumped around live-blogging sites and that told me enough. The debate seems to have revealed much more about the need for Steph and Gibson to one-up Matthews and Russert, in the usual mine is bigger than yours way. Even if Obama stumbled around, I think he will get some sympathy out this. But more importantly, I think most people, including many upcoming voters are tuned out. I also find it disgusting that no questions were asked about what is relevant to Pennsylvanians, like jobs and education etc, that's a total insult!!! So this will be a pundit fest of proclamations and overstatement that won't affect much in the end.

And questions about his personal associations, his character, his personal beliefs, his statements at private fundraisers -- the answers to these questions tell us a lot.

You are obsessed with worthless trivialities.

You don't care about America.

It's a 90-minute debate that will be remembered far longer for the poor performance of ABC and the Clinton attacks than anything else. It's not a game-changer, which is what she needed.

Look for more superdelegate endorsements of Obama as the memory of this wasted debate fades.

i see this as obama having a not great night, so clinton supporters jump to the victor position while obama supporters start a week of downplaying expectations.

was the debate presented well? no. this was hackery barely better than the nights of 10,000 republicans from early in the primary season. it should not take an hour and three commercial breaks to get to an actual issue

my question: will SNL just run the same debate sketch from earlier this year on media bias, stopping just to flip the candidate's roles?

Love it how Obama tried to bamboozled the Ayers question. He said he was 8 when Ayers bombed New York. Nice try Obama. You were 30something when you worked for him at the Woods Project. You as an adult made the decision to work for a terrorist and still says his "friendly" with him. This is a disgrace, a possible nominee who worked for a terrorist. SHAME on you Barack Obama.

Obama raised $10 from me, and I would bet that ABC got at least 200,000 people like me to donate.

i'm just visiting. first time here. who is fat boy?

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?city=Burbank&st=CA&last=Iger&first=Robert

i mean, the CEO of ABC has donated money to hillary several times. i wonder if that explains tonight.

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?city=Burbank&st=CA&last=Iger&first=Robert

i mean, the CEO of ABC has donated money to hillary several times. i wonder if that explains tonight.

For those arguing that this is just Obama's turn to go through what Hillary has in these debates, that's ludicrous (and this goes for you too Marc). In what debate was Hillary asked, in the same night, about Whitewater, Monica, Travel-gate, Billing records-gate, and Vince Foster's suicide (with the unjustifiable implication being that she's lied all along and pulled the trigger herself) all consecutively? That's what Obama got tonight. He essentially was in a debate moderated by Sean Hannity. In NO debate was Hillary hit with those particular types of issues.

What a joke of a "debate". Completely and totally worthless. ABC should be ashamed of themselves. They should be. But they won't be.

Democrats NEED Clinton to stay in the race. OBAMA IS UNELECTABLE IN GENERAL ELECTION. NYT-

Reuters-Obama’s Support Softens in Poll, Suggesting a Peak Has Passed.

AP-52 % will not vote for Obama after Wright speech
Obama drops 11 pts on electability
Mainstream media needs to stop pushing Obama down voter’s throats and stop the stupid Clinton bashing. Where’s a true journalist? Obamas campaign pastor is not going away anytime soon Rev Wright says you don't have to wait for the afterlife for the mansion on the hilltop, he’s right! To shut him up Trinity United Church of Christ is building Rev. Wright a $1 mil house on a lot that was purchased for $345,000. According to his federal income tax return Obama gave the Trinity United church $22,500 in contributions. CBS Chicago has strangely not released video they have of Obama at Trinity United Church of Christ Service with Pastor Wright. According to a Chicago Tribune article, at the Service Obama spoke to the cheering congregation and the choir sang, “Hallelujah Barack”. After the service Wright and Obama sat together, laughing , talking and signing books. if ANY other candidate had this controversy swirling the footage would have found it’s way to the national and cable news networks by now! Obama who marched with Farrakhan Also Wright is OPRAHS Pastor; Slurs Italians in Latest Magazine (CNSNews.com) Wright continues his Obama supported attacks on non-blacks now slurring Italians in issue of Trumpet Newsmag. Wright states, Jesus enemies had their opinion, Italians looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans, and Jesus death on a cross was a public lynching Italian style! This government runs everything from the White House to the schoolhouse, from the Capitol to the KKKlan of white supremacy who is clearly in charge. Every issue published Wright's rant against white people in which he covers a world that is controlled by white supremacy, a country that’s on its way to h*ll in a hand basket because of lying politicians, in a culture that still thinks 'white is right!

He said young African-American Christians are more concerned about 'bling bling' than about freeing their minds and still Obama says I could no more disown him than I could disown the black community. Trumpet Newsmagazine started 80s, Wright is CEO and Wright's daughter, Jeri Wright, is the publisher. Requests for comments Obama camp of course not answered. Trumpet Nov/Dec edition, featured Louis Farrakhan, recipient of the Lifetime Achievement "Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter" award. Farrakhan has called Judaism a "gutter religion" and said Jews are "bloodsuckers. Many of the biased cable news pundits try to make viewers believe Obama's speech limited damage of Wright controversy, but the general election will show voters strongly disagree, especially non-black voters. Obama refuses to explain to the public why he would have someone as such a close spiritual advisor and mentor and why he would expose two young daughters to such hatefulness against fellow Americans. The problem Wright's comments are not theological views, but political statements. This is a serious issue for Obama in general election. As with each new utterance on the topic of Reverend Wright, Barack Obama confirms his own moral obliviousness and he seems to have disdain for those who are troubled by his own unwillingness to break with Wright, even worse Obama still insists Wright is a brilliant man, So brilliant, apparently, that he has uncovered the plot by white America to kill African Americans, so insightful to perceive the 9/11 attacks caused by American terrorism and his discerning observation Israel is a “dirty” word, and still in Obama’s eyes, Wright is brilliant. This, we are told by biased cable news pundits like CNN Obamaphiles, is not supposed to affect voters’ view of Obama’s judgment. Perhaps voters are embarrassed to tell pollsters they are privately offended. General election Republicans as well as independents and democrats are irked by this moral obtuseness even though media like CNN or Hardball cover it up with bogus Clinton attacks.

What a joke of a "debate". Completely and totally worthless. ABC should be ashamed of themselves. They should be. But they won't be.

Unless one of the candidates took a dump on the floor, the debate is meaningless in the race. It's the 800th debate and nobody cares by now except hardcore political junkies and nerdy bloggers.

"Mark Halperin’s overall grades: Obama B+, Clinton B."

Even Halperin has more sense than Ambinder. Never thought I'd see THAT day. Ambinder is about as sad as ABC "News".

BluePearl,

You ever see a picture of Ambinder?

Normally I wouldn't stoop to such an insult*, but the incredible medicious dishonesty of this post really got to me.

*as people who read my comments on Yglesias' blog know, I often say far worse; it's just that I normally insult people based on their appalling views, rather than on physical characteristics.

Hillary is sad for my people.

sorry about posting twice, i accidentally doubleclicked!

Obama did great under those nasty questions

Even though Obama had the three barking dogs hounding him, he gave very good performance. He was steady, consistent and solid. Obama will be up in polls after this debate.

Marc, what a pathetic attempt to justify this POS debate! But then again, you've never been more than a "gotcha" pundit yourself.

Hillary is sad for my people.

I am not going to make any excuses for Obama. One night....one off comment does not a campaign make. He has turned the world upside down and shown the establishment that he can win on the money we provide. He has the the money, the numbers and supporters and he is going to win. And he is pissing off all the right people.

Peace and keep the faith.

FUCK YOU Marc, for defending the cock-gobbling SHITCAPADE of Stephanopoulos and Gibson. This wasn't a debate, this was a vaudeville show.

FUCK YOU for defending this and having the GALL to suggest Obama OR Clinton deserved this bullshit.

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU UNTIL YOUR ANUS BLEEDS AMBINDER

couldn't we just have them play a few rounds of wii sports bowling for the first hour next time? i would enjoy that more than what went down tonight.

ABC was absolutely shameful. You want to know why the government doesn't function -- if this is any example -- look at the media.

I think it's important to remind everyone that Marc Ambinder who once worked for ABC News is hardly an objective party here regarding the conduct of his debate.

In fact he and the other notable spawn of ABC's The Note, Mark Halperin, have been breathless in their anti-Obamaism over the course of this campaign.

So when Marc Ambinder tells us that Obama could not have had a worse night remember where Ambinder's history and loyalties lie. Guess what? They don't lie with the truth.

I've been observing ABC News for a long time. They started the Wright feeding frenzy. They are the only news organization that reports the popular vote with MI and FL included and does not bother to say so. Stephanopolis's roundtable on Sunday's is an anti-obama orgy.

The real story out of this debate. Why does the House of Mouse Disney Corporation hate Barack Obama?

I hope people realize that this is not about Stephapolis or Gibson. This is about a corporation, Disney, that is hell-bent on bringing down Barack Obama because he challenges a staus quo that rewards corporate greed.

I just think the "elite" pundits are once again out of touch...no normal person watching this debate would seem to think Obama in any way lost.

Sure the questions were stacked against him...but that wasn't his fault...and he held up very well.

And I wonder if anyone will call Hillary for yet another lie about her Bosnia lie?

That was a Kennedy/Nixon Debate and Hillary rocked the world - very informed, intelligent,
paced, warm but firm and strong in her answers.
She did women proud tonight in a culture that is long overdue for a powerful woman. She was Presidential and he looked like the rookie that he is who is able to turn a phrase in this American Idol Generation.
It was also refreshing to see a fair debate that didn't play into the Obama campaign.
Politics, Poetry and History - women should be proud.

During the closing of the debate the audience gave well deserved Boo's to George and Charlie. The HuffingtonPost has video of it.

What happened tonight is going to be like a basketball team losing when 4 of their starters are out. People may look at as a loss, but they'll see it for what it really is.

And most voters will give Obama credit for not reaching over the podium and ripping those asshole's hearts out, which i'm sure most people's instinct would have been.

Does anyone else think that it smells a bit funny to have a former Clinton campaign operative (Stephanopolous) asking questions of the nominees in tonite’s debate?

I really don't think Obama did that badly, but I'm sure glad others did! He did show flashes of personality traits I hate, and that rarely get mentioned: his defensiveness and anger when challenged. He always seems surprised when he gets a tough question. I guess he's not used to it. But he didn't act as cocky as he sometimes does ("I'm a pretty darn good politician"), so I guess that's a plus. He even showed moments of sweetness at times that I found endearing. He reminds me of George W Bush in his inability to hide his emotions -- when Hillary disses him, you see him visibly stiffen, and he can't seem to harness it properly. His jaw just locks and his eyes harden. When he attacks Hillary, she just smiles daggers back at him, which is pretty funny.

If he could keep these things in check -- especially the arrogance and holier-than-thou-ness -- I'd like him better. On the issues, he's pretty good, except I hate his RNC talking points on Social Security as a crisis. And all his talk about the "politics of distraction" is itself a distraction that allows him to evade difficult issues. That's a ruse worthy of any old-politics practitioner.

Obama fared poorly, but it seems more like he was just tired, and considering the stupidity of the MSM this past two months I have no trouble seeing why. And this "debate" was more of an Ambush than an actual Debate, I mean yeah lets just ignore the issues for the majority and focus on Bitter, Ayers and Wright, things which he's already retread a thousand times already and i'm certain he's tired of having to cover again and again. So yeah its clear he was exhausted menatally and emotionally at this point having to deal with issues that really are just media hatchet jobs than actual susbtance

I've watched every debate so far, and this was by far the worst. I've always thought the moderators were good journalists - til today. Who paid them? Clinton or McCain? Totally one-sided questions, and totally one-sided follow ups. And the questions were stupid, grade-school level, rumor and innuendo based questions. This is for the presidency! Ask something substantive for God's sake. ABC should be ashamed.

Nancy,

Clinton is setting back the cause of women and politics at least 150 years. Prior to the Monster's evil attempt to destroy the Democratic party, we almost certainly would have had the first woman president within the next 20 years. Now there is no way in hell that a woman will be elected president within my daughter's lifetime (she is 6 years old).

Never mind Hillary or Obama, this was the worst run of the 21 debates. George S. stated the most important issue to Americans is the economy. OK, then WHY did it take 60 minutes before it was brought up??!! I give both Charlie G. and George S. a big fat "F" for their moderating.

I do think it's pretty obvious that either ABC hates Obama or they love Hillary. I don't which it is, but attempts at being even remotely objective were never made by the moderators.


George Stephanopolous = Clinton Hack

Charlie Gibson = Moron

Well if the media was to soft on Obama they made up for it tonight with 45 consecutive minutes of basically beating him with a phone book while Hillary Clinton threw stones from afar. It was truly a pathetic excuse for a debate and I am never watching one that is on ABC again. Obama had a really rough night and so did Clinton. Tonights winner was John McCain and tonight loser was all the sorry saps who watched the thing.

As an undecided former Edwards supporter and near constant reader of this blog, I have only one thing to say: Some of the commenters here should be ashamed of yourselves for the vitriolic personal attacks against Marc. From my unaffiliated perspective, he does a very good job of putting things into the proper context and does so fairly.

I know that until and unless every post is titled, cyclically, "Fired Up, Ready to Go," "Yes We can" "Hope" and "Barack Obama--God or Prophet?" many on this board will refuse to accept a balanced viewpoint. That's fine, there are plenty of Obama kool-aid stands on the web. And you can even take on Marc substantively. But the personal attacks are below Obama and what he stands for.

"Ganging up", "will figure out what to say next time," "a set-up," "a disgrace"... Obama supporters seem to reject reason. Obama is more about a feeling, more about empty words, more about winning, and less about substance. He was asked reasonable questions about his past associations, past actions, and past statements. If he came off as bad, horrible, a disgrace, or whatever- that is because he is. Listen to what he says. Open up your eyes people. Pause for a moment. Do you want the President of the United States to have such a bad time in a debate? I don't like McCain either, but at least be reasonable. It was a good debate, and Clinton looked good. She's got talent- I'd be a little afraid if I was a Republican.

Seriously, Marc, could you be any more of a sack of shit for trying to DEFEND this FUCKJOB?!

It's clear Hillary has command of the issues and policies and Obama arrived at debate tonight like a slug crawling on a leaf. Face it, Obama never did have command of anything except "selling" his mythical message of change to his flock. Obama always looks uneasy when he is exposed and tonight he definitely was unprepared and looked like the "rookie" he is. I get a kick out of these posts from Obama supporters,acting indignant and furious, their Messiah coming off so weak. Hillary has withstood MONTHS of negative media coverage on her, while they have blatantly campaigned for Obama. Its about time you people wake up and understand Obama would not even be in this race HAD THE PRESS began vetting Obama BEFORE IOWA! Think about this,,.,had Wright tapes come out before IOWA, Obama would be back in his senate seat trying to gain the experience he never had to run for President in the first place! Obama is a political fraud and this was a great night.

Anyone else notice that it's almost always women in these comments defending Hillary? I didn't realize that having ovaries was a legitimate voting issue these days. "Women should be proud," Nancy? The rest of America, who aren't reverse sexists, should be ashamed. Incredibly ashamed that this is what American politics has become. I never really thought that Democrats would be voting because of someone's gender - that's usually a Republican tactic.

The real schmucks in this game are the uncommitted superdelegates. Six weeks ago it became obvious that prolonging the agony of this primary contest was going to be a bad thing for the Democratic Party. It's only going to get worse, and meanwhile McCain stands by, unscathed.

A story about Hillary csaying "Screw them" to Southern Working Class Whites in 1995 broke earlier in the evening.

This is a huge story. I am very surprised that Hillary's hacks George and Charlie did not ask her about her remarks.

Hillary Clinton was brilliant tonight. Barack Obama's rookie status in this primary was clearly visible. Anyone who still thinks he's presidential material is living in a fantasy world.

Hey everybody....bitching and complaining is great...but what will really work is to boycott Disney. Don't go to Disney World or buy their movies.

We Obama suppoers are strong in the 18-45 demographic that consumes media and has young kids to take to disney world.

So after we get the rage out of our system, make sure that you spread the word: Boycott Disney.

Finally someone had the guts to ask Obama about his relationship with Bill Ayers. His answer was lame, as a mater of fact he did not answer the question! I am a democrat, but unfortunately I must admit that he is not going to win the general election, period.

What? Now ABC may be in a “world of hurt” because the Obama-sycophants are not happy with their candidate’s performance?

Please. The questions were fair. Insipid? Yes. But fair.

Obama didn’t have a good night. He seemed so tired and not engaged.

I don’t like Obama - never have. Hillary is a liar, but she’s a good one.

John McCain and the Republican machine will eat Obama up.

Just watch. “Bittergate,” however overblown, is just the first of many “slip-ups” that will result with Obama’s foot in his mouth and a loss in November.

Superdelegates won’t have the stones to nominate Hillary.

Too bad…

I agree - Sue did say it best:

"I would encourage Obama supporters to try to climb out of their fanaticism for just a few moments, and try to look at all this fairly. You can't hoot when Hillary gets socked, and cry when Obama does. It's just hypocritical and babyish. If the guy can't take a shot, better to find it out now."

Im a long time Republican who is proud to have voted for Obama. Yet I'm dismayed at how quickly people with a clear bias for Obama can't step back and just admit he had a bad night. I mean what can you expect after 2+ weeks of terrible press for him? And where was the outrage when HRC got similar treatment? (which by my unscientific count has happened MANY more times)

Maybe there's truth to the types of people who are gravitating towards him...

ABC should be ashamed of itself. This was a horrible representation of what we, the citizens of this country deem important. Who is out of touch!!!!! I wasted two hours watching this pre=school approach to politics and I resent that you and your network think this is what I wanted to hear tonight.

I am going to bed, but I am sure Clinton's hate mongers are going to work overtime tonight!

Obama's like origami...

fly, but made of PAPER

but he's gripping the ball all the way to november. gold on for the ride, we have NO IDEA whats next with good old barack.

Tough night for Obamba, no doubt.

I don't want to put it all on the moderators but where were the Penn-Columbia questions?

Am I the only one who noticed that Hillary won't give Obama an inch on his "mangled" bitter statement but expected us all to just laugh off her Bosnia farce - even though she repeated it several times. And the version in her book is false as well.

Hillary didn't miss an opportunity to twist the knife in Obama - he, however, took the high road and did not attack.

Most of the TV Politico's will say this was good politics on her part. But - most voters will just ponder on what a bitch she is. She is just a turn off - especiall when she is in attack mode.

John McCain was the real winner tonight. Barack Obama will hang on to win the Democratic nomination, but the events of the past several weeks, beginning with that bigoted loudmouth Jerimiah Wright and culminating in tonight's debate, have now permanently knocked the shine off the "New Messiah". He is now a critically flawed candidate whom moderate and conservative Democrats will never vote for, simply because he's too weak and far too aligned with the radical left. "War Hero & All-American Boy" John McCain and the Republicans will box Obama's ears and take his lunch money in November.