Other Takes: Polls Give It To Biden; Luntz Focus Group Likes Palin

A theory: maybe undecided voters had similar expectations for Biden and Palin; maybe they evaluated them with the same criteria; maybe they can appreciate the performance of both of them but prefer the performance of one of them. Maybe both of them are likable but one of them is plausibly vice presidential. If true, this debate won't change the direction of the race and maybe not even the velocity of the race.

CNN's poll gives the debate to Biden, 51% to 36%.....Frank Luntz's focus group found Palin's performance to be most effective...CBS News's poll: 46% of uncommitted voters surveyed gave the debate to Biden, where 21% thought Palin won. But 55% said their opinion of Palin changed for the better; 53% said their opinions of Biden changed in the positive direction as well. 18% of uncommitted voters are now committed to Obama; 10% are committed to McCain.

According to sources, in the official Democratic dial groups, Palin's lowest jag came when she said that Obama's plan raised the white flag of surrender....Sen. Biden was fairly even all evening, with a high spike when he talked about his single parenting... Palin had more high spikes and low spikes.

Following the pundits... David Brooks was pleasantly surprised.....G. Ferraro called it a tie...ex-Bush aides Matt Dowd and Torie Clarke called it for Biden...Dan Bartlett said that Republicans are enthusiastic..On CNN, Alex Castellanos said: "The second part of the debate, you know Republicans aren't going to win debates on Iraq, I don't care who you put on that stage tonight, we're not going to win debates on Iraq and we didn't tonight. But overall, we've had a rough week as Republicans. You know, this has not been our best week."

Comments

That's how I saw it. Palin said very little of any substance whatsoever and Biden looked like a statesman with answers. David Brooks had to take a Valium; I thought he was in love. Whaaaa? Perhaps I didn't have any great relief that Palin didn't implode, but while Biden was presidential, she just won a spot judging an Idol spin-off. She knows colloquialisms, but no more substance than she did when she couldn't answer Katie Couric's questions.

Posted by Dr. Ryter | October 2, 2008 11:54 PM

In the debate Sarah Palin exceeded expectations that were low to begin with, and was feisty, though evasive in responding to questions. However, Senator Biden I think was far more presidential in his substantive responses. As the Vice President is only a heartbeat away from being president, Biden showed he is far more ready for that role than Palin. This also shows that Barack Obama has far better judgement than McCain.

Posted by Sheldon | October 3, 2008 12:01 AM

Over 50 over my freids half called after the debate and every one of them said Palin Won hands down and I agree , I dont know hope your polling saying Biden won , but thats Nutts !!!

Posted by Bob Rossell | October 3, 2008 12:03 AM

Sarah palin won. People claim content for Biden even though much of it was false. So how is that content?

Posted by paul | October 3, 2008 12:05 AM

Will someone please factcheck Biden and his repeated claim that Obama claimed the subprimes were in crisis two years ago.... coincidentally as he raked in the dough from Fannnie, Freddie, Lehman Bros and asked Franklin Raines for financial advice?

This needs to be cleared up.

Posted by Sarah Evans | October 3, 2008 12:05 AM

Bob Rossell must be one of those six pack average uneducated Joe's Palin keeps talking about representing.

If this is the standard to which our leaders aspire, God help us all.

Posted by Johan Borneo | October 3, 2008 12:09 AM

Not sure what some of you watched, but as an objective, uncommitted voter, Palin won that debate hands down. Still not sure I would vote for McCain, but there is no doubt who won. PERIOD

Posted by Msears | October 3, 2008 12:12 AM

Biden showed why the American people have rejected him over and over again. Sara beat him like a red headed step child

Posted by Craig | October 3, 2008 12:13 AM

give me a brake, this was a knockout for Palin.....biden is still on the floor and don't know yet what hit him......

ps: don't believe the CNN polls they are rigged !!

Posted by VINNY | October 3, 2008 12:15 AM

Palin frequently avoided answering the question, wandering off into memorized talking points; Biden was clear, authoritative, and confident. Biden clearly won.

Posted by Mitsu | October 3, 2008 12:15 AM

Not a blowout but a clear win for Biden. More presidential, more knowledgable on thei issues, much better at getting his points across. And Palin's desire to "increase" the power of the VP came across as creepy - esp. after 8 years of Cheney.

Posted by Mike | October 3, 2008 12:17 AM

Palin's attempted appeal to the "middle-class" and folks just like her along with her continued obvious memorized lines and phrases was appalling. Further, I have never seen a debate candidate have to look down at her podium (which must have been full of notes) so much to try and find data/lines/etc. - I am surprised there were not strings attached to her body for the puppeteer??

Biden was crisp, clean and clearly showed a superior knowledge of facts and debate skills. He also showed a confidence in his answers.

And by the way I am a registered republican voter!

Posted by Dominic | October 3, 2008 12:18 AM

Sarah, Biden was correct in his claim, and here is the link to Obama's letter, dated March 2007.

http://obama.senate.gov/press/070322-obama_urges_ber/

Posted by Melissa | October 3, 2008 12:18 AM

GOPers spin it as a win because she wasn't a total embarrassment, but in the real world, everybody saw that she was out of her league. It wasn't even close - Biden won even though he agreed to only play defense.

Posted by jbentley4 | October 3, 2008 12:18 AM

I'd rate a narrow win for Palin.

Question: has a Republican candidate EVER won a debate snap poll? I seem to recall that snap polls always had Gore winning, but his polls numbers after always slid further... he was sliding down the drain actually, until the DUI story.

Posted by Xaix | October 3, 2008 12:19 AM

Those of you who are crowing about her "wiping the floor with Biden" or that "he doesn't know what hit him" are delusional. She is NOT qualified to be VP - and the American people know it.

Posted by Mike | October 3, 2008 12:20 AM

I must say that I was expecting more...fireworks. But Sarah got her act together and sounded like a human being for once, so it didn't go down so badly for McCain. However, are you really ready for that woman to be part of our executive branch and potentially the president one day? She is very frightening. And the Republicans are all fluff and ideology. Any good ideas they have came from Barack- so why don't we just elect him?

Posted by Sara | October 3, 2008 12:21 AM

How exactly did Palin win the debate? Biden responded directly to everything Palin said; she responded to everything Biden said (and many of Ifill's questions) by regurgitating whichever of her memorized answers happened to fit it best--which sometimes was quite a stretch. She looked extremely uncomfortable and spoke as if she was reciting lines without really knowing what they meant. It was often quite painful to watch.

Posted by Andrew S. | October 3, 2008 12:24 AM

Palin was ill informed and incoherent in her responses. How could anyone in their right mind believe she won this? It's not a beauty contest you can win by winking at the judge, we need a V.P. who answers the questions about nuclear proliferation. She couldn't even pronounce it!

Posted by L. Ann | October 3, 2008 12:25 AM

Palin won? Can you answer a question and respond to your opponent by saying that you are not going to respond to the questions that either the moderator or Biden want her to answer but rather speak to Americans about her qualifications (refusing to respond to the issue that McCain pushed for all this deregulation)? I didn't know you could declare you weren't going to answer the questions in the debate and just answer your own. Cool. Good job Palin (in your job as Governor well after the November debate). You killed whatever chance McCain had.

Posted by Mack | October 3, 2008 12:26 AM

Umm, really not sure what you guys watched. But when someone says they aren't going to answer the mods questions or the other vp candidates questions, that is clearly a loss. I can't even imagine in a high school debate, the person saying, I'm not going to answer your questions. AAAA, hello, you fail. Jeesh, I really do believe people are stupid. She won. LMFAO

Posted by Don | October 3, 2008 12:28 AM

Biden won this debate clearly. Palin once again looks out of the her element. She avoids answering questions and is very erratic with her answers. She often seems to want to be cute when I think a potential VP should show more class. Frankly I would be very concerned if she was a heartbeat from the presidency!

Posted by john | October 3, 2008 12:31 AM

Palin won it hands down using the same qualifiers that the msm used in the McCain/Obama debate. Palin also won in again simply because after 5 weeks in her potential vp spot as compared to Bidens 20 some odd years in politics, she rocked it. I was able to connect my average everyday life to her and to be honest having her on the ticket to me is a heck of a lot better than watching Obama(ties to fannie mae and hes being a lawyer for ACORN in the past, famous for the last 2 years for campaigning and not really doing much else to help main street) and Biden(guy whos had 20 some odd years to make things better and has failed thus far)Ill go with the ticket that has Palin-she just isnt what already has been-She is what can be.

Posted by ctaylor | October 3, 2008 12:32 AM

SARAH PALIN cheated. Most Americans won’t know this because they don’t know performance but as a playwright myself i know she memorized mini-speeches written by speech writers on vague subjects that might come up and applied them to whatever question came up rather than answering the question herself in her own words, thoughts and policies (as JOE BIDEN did, no matter how “boring” the facts are to pundits and "middle" America). Her performance was as scripted as she was at the convention. WE STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHAT PALIN THINKS ABOUT ANY OF THESE ISSUES WE ONLY KNOW WHAT HER SPEECH WRITERS TOLD HER TO MEMORIZE. This is the way Bush operates as well and we don’t need more automotons. The real Palin was caught in the headlights without cue cards on the Couric interviews. Please do NOT vote for McCain Palin unless you want more big business robots controlling your money, health, life and rights.

Posted by roxy | October 3, 2008 12:32 AM

I found Sarah Palin's "folksiness" absolutely sickening after a while. I almost turned my TV off the second time she winked at the camera.

Her off-putting style wouldn't have been so bad if she actually had something of substance to say. But from refusing to answer some of the early questions (it's a debate, not a speech - you have to answer the questions) to reciting vague talking points we've heard a million times most of the night to giving both a pat and a classless response to Biden's answer about his family, her arguments weren't going to win anybody over either.

Posted by Jeff | October 3, 2008 12:34 AM

How can you say biden won? Half the lines he threw out there were lies to begin with.

how is that being presidential when the points you are making are lies?

Palin won this debate regardless of what the MSM polls say. They have been in obama's favor from the get go.

She didn't allow herself to be trapped by some ignorant question by a bias moderator and people are upset figures.

Mccain didn't push for all the deregulation which is what she should have said. mccain was pushing for regulation back in 2003. another lie by biden.

Posted by al | October 3, 2008 12:37 AM

I'm a woman and I'm ssssooooo embarrassed with the comments people are making about Palin. She did OK because at least she didn't implode like she did in her interview with Katie Couric??

Hilary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and any number of smart women would have said, "hey! don't patronise me!! I'm a woman and have had to be twice as good as man to make is half as far!"

Damn it. Palin is not ready to be VP. biden did a great job. His occasional gaffes are definitely better than her evasions.

OBAMA BIDEN has my vote.

Posted by Ming | October 3, 2008 12:38 AM

Palin proved she was more likeable, funny, smiley, winking, folksy, earthy and familial.

Biden proved he was more wise, presidential, experienced, thoughtful, focused and principled.

Which one will Americans want?

We, judging from the way they (or at least many of them) voted for friendly old likeable W, probably Palin's camp will win.

Americans will vote for the one they want to have a beer with, not the one who will govern most effectively and responsibly.

That is the price of our celebrity culture and its cult of personality.

Posted by Bob | October 3, 2008 12:38 AM

I would never vote for Mad Mac but Sarah did better than her other very few presentations. She did seem a little stiff and uncomfortable and tried to move away from Biden talking to her after the debate. A big no no. Ask MAD MAC.

Posted by deapp | October 3, 2008 12:39 AM

I think that as the bar was set so low for Palin, and she cleared it effortlessly, she - as far as the Republican Party is concerned - won.

However, it was obvious that Bidin had a much deeper and sophisticated grasp of the issues.

I think overall it was more or less a draw.

Posted by doug | October 3, 2008 12:42 AM

Borneo,

That Bob guys seems to be smarter than you; at least he knows how to hit submit only once.

Why don't you give Al Gore a call and maybe he can teach you how to use his Internet?

Posted by JB | October 3, 2008 12:43 AM

FACTS MATTER:

-McCain, not Obama, has campaign staff who are being paid by Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

-McCain has been a consistent advocate of deregulation, including the "self-regulation" program which the SEC itself has deemed a failure.

-Palin was wrong about the powers of the VP. They are defined clearly under Art. I (as Biden knew and correctly cited).

-Obama, in writing, warned of the subprime issues in 2007, as Biden said.

Posted by Fact Chek | October 3, 2008 12:44 AM

Dominic, you do realize that you can't bring notes with you into a debate. If people even think you brought a pen with you it stirs controversy. Any notes she would be referring to would be notes she took while Senator Biden was speaking. In a debate you have to take notes and refer to them because it's a very fast-paced discussion and otherwise you wouldn't remember everything someone had said.

Also, in response to those who are saying she was faking her "folksiness", she's from a small town in the state of Alaska. If those coming from a small town in Alaska are faking folksiness, there is no genuine folksiness anywhere.

Posted by Ashley | October 3, 2008 12:44 AM

People who think that Palin is a good candidate to be next in line--a heartbeat away from the presidency--are not using common sense. McCain clearly showed that he would do anything to win including trying to use Sarah Palin and try to get Americans thinking that he is compassionate and in favor of women. Don't be fooled!! Obama may be inexperienced, but he has chosen a seasoned and effective man as his running mate. I certainly would want him as president should anything happen. I would be scared silly if Palin were put in that position. We all should be.

Posted by Mary Ellen | October 3, 2008 12:45 AM

Biden did very well and Palin is not qualified to be vice president. I don't know what to make of her antics. She is not a serious person and I would not trust her with any serious responsibility.

Posted by Karen | October 3, 2008 12:48 AM

Palin Blew it out of the water. Biden came off like your typical DC flip-flop money grabber. Check out Pitbull Palin .org to see some "Show your Vote". I hope the Maverick and Pitbull can pull it off.

Posted by Johnathan Glen | October 3, 2008 12:54 AM

AMERICA IS ABOUT TO MAKE A HISTORICAL DECISION

Numerous forces are at work, pressuring American voters into a decision in a time of stress.

http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/10/vote-critical-decision-in-dangerous.html

It is time for knee-jerk reaction and emotion.

Posted by PacificGatePost | October 3, 2008 12:55 AM

Aw shucks, Palin is just an average joe who's "just like us."

Hey, didn't we vote for the "average joe" back in 2000?

How's that working out, America?

Posted by VegasForTheVote | October 3, 2008 12:57 AM

Whenever Palin gives one of her cutsy smirks or winks at the camera or says, "Doggonit" or "Hockey Mom", I really want to puke.

Posted by Gene | October 3, 2008 12:59 AM

Biden clearly won this debate.
Palin admittedly can recite lines, which worked okay here since she was not pressed for details. She's much like an up and coming George W. Bush. No wonder Republicans are so excited. They have another miserable failure standing on the sidelines ready to run in for 2012.

Posted by mackerman | October 3, 2008 1:04 AM

Sarah Palin is a phony. Her answers were scripted. Her down-home folksy shtick was a Tina Fey parody. And her inability to recognize Biden's personal tragedy showed that she has nothing but cynicism and ambition where her heart should be. Shame on John McCain for inflicting this disgrace on the American people.

Posted by Phuz01 | October 3, 2008 1:04 AM

I'm a law professor and tried to score both debates based on candidates logic, responsiveness to questions and other candidate's points, use of facts to support their arguments. No credit for exceeding expectations or "connecting" with audience. Results:

McCain by close margin 8 rounds to 7
Biden by huge margin, 11 rounds to 4

Posted by Tom | October 3, 2008 1:07 AM

She is an abomination to women everywhere and I feel embarrassed that she represents such a rare position for a female politician. How far we have fallen if a cute smile and wink is all it takes to win some of you over. Did any of you Palin supporters actually LISTEN to the words coming out of her mouth? I've heard better sense from my dog.

Posted by common sense | October 3, 2008 1:07 AM

She really only had a few little "bits" memorized, and kept trotting them back out in different formulations. Unfortunately, she has some verbal tics and pet phrases that reminded me of her Couric interview, etc.

For example: "reared its head" "you betcha" all the "ya's" (rather than "you"). "Joe Six-Pack" "Maverick" -- it's all beginning to add up to a random conversation generator filled with clips of stock phrases.

I'd feel sorry for her, in her apparent cluelessness, except that she's so arrogant I can't feel bad for her. Seriously. She was so nasty to Biden, much moreso than someone who has much deeper knowledge than she does. She just looked disrespectful and mean-spirited, because her ovaries mean that he couldn't really fight back.

When Biden spoke briefly about losing his wife and child, and then it was Palin's turn... she launched into another attack and bunch of trite phrases. It was horrible. She didn't react to his loss at all. I mean, she doesn't have to go on and on about it, but some sort of little nod, or an acknowledgment, or some comforting sound, or something that would make her look HUMAN would have been nice.

Sheesh. She really is a pitbull with lipstick, and I don't mean that in a good way. I wouldn't treat my worst enemy that way.

Posted by Joan | October 3, 2008 1:08 AM

Anyone who thinks Palin won that debate is an idiot. Plain and simple. She was all style, no substance. She never gave answers to the questions given to her by the moderator, and the only thing she was good at was looking at the camera, having a good make-up artist, and reading speech dribble from notecards. I think the average high school student is smarter than her. However, I do understand that the vast majority of our population are uneducated and complete idiots, so it makes sense that an idiot like her would attract other idiots to her side.

Biden clearly is a very intelligent person, who has ideas that our country needs in these desperate times. He answered the questions given to him honestly, and did not detract away from the issues. He is a leader. She is a cheerleader.

Posted by Jacob | October 3, 2008 1:14 AM

Biden killed her with kindness while totally dispelling the McCain "maverick" myth. Brilliant. Palin pales by comparison; next stop, Ferraroville.

Posted by Bob | October 3, 2008 1:15 AM

My heart goes out to Palin. She is just a person maximizing her own position in the world, just like everyone else. She is being used as a figurehead by a political-economic apparatus that is far more powerful and desperate to maintain that power than most people realize. In this regard, she is a tool. But I'd still do her.

Posted by Jason | October 3, 2008 1:20 AM

In between cooking and eating dinner, I watched as much of the debate as I could. She used all the stock lines that were drilled into to her at the McCazin Compound in Sedona over the past number of days. And the Francis McDormand in her came out with a few 'ya betch yas.' As to her assertion that John McCain saved the country from all of the earmarks that were proposed,and the ones she applied for, check out http://www.americanprogressaction.org/ There is an awful lot to that.

Posted by Tom Ontis | October 3, 2008 1:27 AM

Those who think that the facts presented by Joe Biden about his record, or Barack Obama's record or their campaign's stance on things are lies need to get their "facts" from somewhere other than pernicious emails, newsmax, Fox news (or shall we call it Faux news) and the McCain Palin stump speeches. For once do a little research, check politicfact.com or factcheck.org or snopes.com. You will find that the McCain/Palin campaign and the the various GOP 527's are guilty of circulating a huge number of falsehoods about Obama and Biden and the reverse is not true. Yes occasionally Obama/ Biden have misspoke or have exaggerated but not to the extent that McCain /Palin have and continue to do. And I've yet to see their campaign be magnanimous enough to apologize for some of the trash they've allowed to fill the airwaves.

As to Joe Biden he is a very honorable man who was not treated with the dignity he should have been by Gov. Palin. All her smirking and winking and folksiness might come off as cute to some but it didn't impress me. She's the primary reason I'm proud I changed my registration after 32 years from Republican to Democrat.

I don't need bum bum steer and pit bull wearing lipstick running my country. I need intelligent people of vision.

A concerned Teacher in Colorado

PS I know my reward my be in Heaven but maybe if Obama is elected he'll see I get paid better here on Earth

Posted by Rosie | October 3, 2008 1:32 AM

One would have to be an extreme conservative, or under-educated in order to think that Palin won this debate. Someone earlier used the term, "delusional", and that may be closer to the mark. Senator Joe Biden was much more presidential seeming and did not seem at all rehearsed, though he may have been. Ms. Palin seemed to be repeating catch-phrases coached to her, and her folksy mannerisms may play well in the red states where they don't care as much about how the rest of the world views our country, but intellectuals in the country grimace with every, "doncha know?" and "you betcha!" I cannot imagine this woman in serious talks with foreign leaders or our own military leaders. If there were going to be a woman this close to the presidency, it should be Hillary in 8 years, not Sarah.

Posted by Jude Manders | October 3, 2008 1:32 AM

I don't like when someone says they are not going to answer the questions. I've had enough of that with this administration. Some people here say Biden lied. Well, at least you can fact check what he said and make some decisions based on that - when you don't even answer the question (but give a few winks like that's okay with us), we're right back in Bush territory. And I know about 30% of the country is fine with that so - here she is - Bush in drag.

Posted by jillbryant | October 3, 2008 1:32 AM

Why did Palin do so horribly with Couric and Gibson but better here? Tonight, there were no follow-up questions pressing her to actually ANSWER the question. In tonight's debate she said "Thanks but no thanks" to the original question asked of her and launched into the same superficial dribble about energy, or Main Streets, or Mavericks.

And someone should do an experiment...with a variety of individuals: political science college students, school principals, your average PTA president/hockey mom: send them into a plush retreat for several days, have the best people in terms of politics and talking points and debating strategies tutor them intensely...and lets see how they do in this type of debate...would they be similar, worse, or perhaps better?

And thus, should they then become our Vice President?

We've had Joe Six-Packin the White House for 8 years and our country is quickly descending in hell on all fronts. Sarah Six-Pack would be no better.

If my President dies in office, I want a leader, not a cheerleader taking over.

Biden tonight proved his an able statesman, with him we'd be in good hands. If McCain dies and Palin is President, we are AGAIN stuck with someone who will need to be tutored through the Presidency, like W.

Posted by Joan | October 3, 2008 1:36 AM

Illiterates for McCain/Palin! Wooo!

Posted by ill | October 3, 2008 1:40 AM

Roxy made an important insight-- one that bears repeating. The most important distinction between the candidates tonight was that Joe Biden was, well, Joe Biden. Sarah Palin was the product of a committee of McCain campaign aides and speechwriters. Her skin in the game was folksy delivery and selecting which canned response best fit Ifill's questions. When she ran out of prepackaged statements, she had to fall back on the same tired talking points. When a question didn't fit her limited archive of memorized responses, she now famously changed the subject. The Biden of two months ago would still have fared well in this debate. The Palin of two months ago would have stared blankly at the cameras. You can't cram your way to the vice presidency.

Posted by Andy | October 3, 2008 1:41 AM

"Luntz Focus Group Likes Palin"

definitely falls into the "dog bites man" category

Posted by kth | October 3, 2008 1:56 AM

I believe bob rossell and his 50 IMAGINARY friends need a psychiatrist

Posted by SAm | October 3, 2008 2:51 AM

Dr. Ryter needs to have another glass kool aid!

Posted by Denali | October 3, 2008 3:53 AM

"When Biden spoke briefly about losing his wife and child, and then it was Palin's turn... she launched into another attack and bunch of trite phrases. It was horrible. She didn't react to his loss at all. I mean, she doesn't have to go on and on about it, but some sort of little nod, or an acknowledgment, or some comforting sound, or something that would make her look HUMAN would have been nice."

Dead right, Joan. Hard for Palin to figure out how to react... but she chose to go with her programming and her talking points.

Posted by Carrington Ward | October 3, 2008 6:52 AM

Listen, unfortunately we live in a world were CNN, MSNBC, the New York Times, and a host of other liberal outlets have a strong grip on the public's opinion. From the very start, the media was determined to chant the muntra "Palin is inexperienced, and not ready" over and over and as usual, after a couple of days the public for the most part has fallen right into the trap. For those of you walking around blaming the Repbulicans for the issues in the economy, please go do some reseach to find the true roots of the economic problems instead of relying on a bias media to make up your mind.

Posted by Shawn | October 3, 2008 7:43 AM

I think Biden won.

At first, I thought she was doing exceptionally well. Her answers were fast (too fast), but far more fluent than I had expected. She did manage to talk in a soundbitey way ("There ya go again, looking at the past") that I thought would be played on an endless loop on TV. Some of her answers sort of made sense. Although I disagree with her on a number of issues, she did sound strong and assertive on certain subjects, like gay marriage. So yes, she did sound like someone who at least knows that there are three branches of government, unlike the way she sounded with Katie Couric.

However, I think many people were aware that Joe Biden had a real challenge on his hands--i.e; that it's harder to argue with an idiot than it is someone who's somewhat equivalent to you in intelligence and experience. It's hard not to sound condescending. At first, he wasn't doing too well. His answers were mushy, and he didn't get good points in. But I think that made him seem more sympathetic. And, as the night went on, the whole dynamic changed. Sarah Palin began to repeat herself. The idea that she said she wasn't going to answer the questions she was asked because she was going to take it to the AMerican people seemed arrogant. Her aggression in the "White flag of surrender" was not helpful to her, because frankly, most Americans are ready to run that same flag up that same flagpole--and BTW, do not consider ending a useless war "surrender." Things Joe Biden was saying made sense. Her answers began to sound more and more like a patchwork of crazy sentences "flag, American pie, taxes, goshdarn it, oil," etc.
Yes, she didn't want to talk about the past (actually, madam, it's the PRESENT) president, but the fact is, her style of nonsensical statements with a lot of patriotic nonsense thrown in is just like Bush. When she said she wants to have more power in the U.S. Senate, and help shape policy there, I thought WHOA! I hope this gets more play. That was extremely arrogant--for her with all her inexperience, she wants to do something that's never been done before. And, I think even more importantly, she sounded like a real jerk after Joe Biden told the story of his dead wife and child. Would it have killed her to say, "I'm sorry for your loss," instead of launching into "blah blah John McCain is a maverick?" That was a VERY bad moment for her--I thought, oh so that's the famous Christian compassion? I also thought it reminded people that fathers love their kids just as much as mothers do, and that fatherhood is a sacred calling. I don't think that many people know about Joe Biden's history, and what he said was very touching. He seemed very real, and on top of that, he sounded as if he knew what he was talking about. Joe wins!

Posted by Alexandra | October 3, 2008 8:04 AM

We have had 8 horrible years of bluster without substance or truth telling. Palin would be more of the same. He claims did not hold up to fact check. Smiles and evasion will not put bread in the larder or fix our national problems, given her short heartbeat away from the Presidency. Enough.

Posted by Iris | October 3, 2008 8:33 AM

Palin nailed Biden. How come the media is not mentioning the many times Biden started a sentence and then in mid sentence said something totally different? Or how about how he just had one answer for every single question? Or how about the fact that he denied changing his views since he has been running for VP? Okay and get this: he said what he can offer America is consistency...so then why talk about change? Balin has not changed in what... 35 years... yeah, what is new Balin? Definately NOT you!!! It was like a debate of a big wealthy Washington man against a regular civilian. I LOVED IT!!! Palin - way to go and bring it home. I can not wait to have you as a VP in November.

Posted by Buenas | October 3, 2008 8:50 AM

I think your colleague Fallows is right about these debates--winning on points is irrelevant. What people come away with is an impression--framed by the issues but not really based solely on policy positions. He cares about people like me. She'll keep us safe. He really knows the issues. She has good common sense.

Assume you're not an obsessive internet political junkie. Then in the last debate, Obama seemed knowledgeable and presidential despite McCain's repeated "What Senator Obama just doesn't understand..." and McCain seemed knowledgeable but grouchy. In this debate Biden seemed utterly capable, and Palin seemed not as bad as the Couric interview. She beat expectations, but she did not--unless you already in that particular tank--come across as deeply qualified and better than Biden. So the undecideds lean D again.

Palin is a weird instance of a veep pick really mattering, and managing to do it in both ways--she got Republican volunteers out and enthusiasm in the base up, a real difference. And she convinced independents that McCain shouldn't be appointing people if he picks someone so unqualified, a real difference.

Posted by Deborah | October 3, 2008 9:29 AM

It is clear to me that Biden won, but it amazes me how quick we are to be so nasty to others that do not share the same views as our own.

To me Palin sounded very recited, and kept looking down to her paper, she also could not respond to a question as she would go off on another topic, and she could not tell America why her and McCain will be any different than Bush.

Posted by Therese | October 3, 2008 9:31 AM

REAL clear politics political map, http://tinyurl.com/55cxg4 very cool!

Posted by Therese | October 3, 2008 9:37 AM

Frank Luntrz's focus group liked Palin.

Of course! It's Frank Luntz's focus, after all, that's the way he works, that old hen in the Fox house.

Posted by KMC | October 3, 2008 10:18 AM

Marc,

You included Geraldine Ferraro in a group called 'pundits.' This was probably a clerical error

Thanks.

Posted by Harley | October 3, 2008 10:39 AM

I think Biden won by outclassing Palin in every respect - intellectually and emotionally.

Another important thing to recall is that Palin was a near-laughingstock when she walked into that debate, thanks to the Couric interview. Biden was unsparing in his attacks on the McCain policies, but he did a remarkable thing in treating Palin like a dignified human being and a valid candidate who could meet his challenges, instead of piling on with jibes at her horrifically bad interview. In making Palin look good I think Biden made himself look even better - magnanimous and statesmanlike. He played it perfectly. THAT is why he's been elected six times.

Meanwhile Palin's response, or rather total lack thereof, to Joe Biden's loss of composure over his first wife and daughter was absolutely appalling. A small-minded, small-hearted moment completely lacking in human empathy. If a male candidate had so glibly brushed off a female candidate getting emotional about the death of her spouse and child, the media would be playing it to death and he would be painted an insensitive oaf. Palin ought to be held to the same standard as a man, but as usual, the mainstream media won't.

And finally - the room I was in EXPLODED with laughter when Biden made the crack about McCain being unaware of the history of Sunni-Shia bloodshed in the last "oh, seven hundred years."

Posted by Mary | October 3, 2008 10:42 AM

Sarah Evans wrote:
"Will someone please factcheck Biden and his repeated claim that Obama claimed the subprimes were in crisis two years ago.... coincidentally as he raked in the dough from Fannnie, Freddie, Lehman Bros and asked Franklin Raines for financial advice? This needs to be cleared up."

It sure does, because the FoxNews crowd is (once again) circulating some blatant lies about the Fannie/Freddie history and just how much anybody "raked in."

Please, folks -- go check your facts and take a long look at your sources. There is enough bad information flying out there without your pulling it off the rightwing media & smearing it around unchecked.

Posted by crazy in Alabama | October 3, 2008 10:52 AM

After the debate David Brooks said Palin was Biden's equal. Please. Biden was for the most part was the only one there answering the actual questions and giving coherent answers, while Palin was spewing random talking points. OK, she winked (twice), strung together complete sentences and didn't drool. That may be a "win" compared to her incoherent interviews over the last week. But other than that she did nothing to look presidential, vice-presidential, or even senatorial. And gosh darn it, it seems that people responding to the polls felt the same way.

Posted by Dryheat | October 3, 2008 11:15 AM

Chad thinks David's article is funny http://www.2008presidentialpoll.com/vice-president/david-was-amused-by-biden/

Posted by Chad | October 3, 2008 12:12 PM

The people Luntz polled were in an Anhaueser-Bush factory. Cindy McCain has a beer distributorship. Do you suppose they were biased or just drunk?

Posted by kravitz | October 3, 2008 12:18 PM

I think Palin won. While she did have some canned responses and didn't always directly answer the questions, overall she was better than Biden IMO. Don't get me wrong--Biden was pretty good too, but Palin shone last night. Her style and delivery were most impressive.

Posted by Sam | October 3, 2008 12:27 PM

Similar to the Pres. debate, Obama's expectations were lower to McCain so the debate went to Obama, if it was basically even. Palin's expectations were even lower than Obama's and She was arguably even in this debate. So based on evaluative rules set in the first debate, Palin Wins.

Posted by Lenny | October 3, 2008 2:09 PM

Biden had several lies in his so-called substance. He came across old and grumpy, talking to the audience as though we were deaf,or stupid or both. I did not appreciate it. Meanwhile, Palin spoke to us as an equal and I guess because she's not a Democrat the biased media has a hard time finding substance.

Posted by Peggy | October 3, 2008 3:25 PM

Governor Avon Lady didn't debate at all - she refused to answer questions from the moderator but instead gave scripted answers - this was because in preparing for the debate she was SO BAD that her handlers decided that she should just recite and wink. What an embarrassment to ALL thinking women. Winking and talking about discussions that she and Todd have had about college costs was laughable. They have one son in Iraq and a pregnant 17 yr old daughter who's marrying a self described "hockey playing, dope smoking, red neck" - no college bound kids for them anytime soon. As an independent I was pulling for Palin to show me her stuff and not to embarrass all women in this country but once again she disappointed me. She's great in front of a camera reading from the teleprompter but there's a reason why they won't let her appear on ANY network shows where she'll have to actually answer a question. I've finally decided who to vote for - Obama Obama Obama.

Posted by Carole | October 6, 2008 1:28 PM