Sam The Not-Officialy-A-Plumber

(I.e., Joe The Plumber's name isn't Joe, and he's not officially a plumber. Discuss.)

Actually, he's "Sam The Guy Who Does Plumbing," technicallly.

"Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher."

His voter registration application misspells his name, btw.   ("Worzelbacher.")

Patrick Levine Rose, an election attorney and appellate law specialist in East Lansing, MI asked these questions on Rick Hasen's election law listserve:

Wouldn't it be ironic if Joe the Plumber lost his vote due to this mismatch in how his name appears in the voter database?

It could not have been the GOP's goal to challenge Joe the Plumber's vote?

I'm still amused by everyone's real person fetish fulfillment of the day, but you've got to hand it to the McCain campaign: they've found a way to get people talking.

On the other hand, every mention of "Joe" includes the fact that his taxes would get cut under Obama's plan.

Comments

That awful movie "Swing Vote" is looking more prophetic all the time.

Good move by McCain though, ultimately. They've steered the discourse towards someone who is perceived as a "swing voter" but seems to lean resolutely Republican.

Posted by Gavin | October 16, 2008 4:23 PM

What was the McCain camp thinking steering the discussion to this "normal American" guy who is apparently not licensed to work, owes back taxes, was taken to court for battery, thinks social security should be abolished, etc etc etc. I sure as hell don't want to live next to normal Americans like that.

Posted by SarahG | October 16, 2008 4:28 PM

Hey Marc:

About that friendlier dissent you posted earlier-- hope you wrote to that fella and laid out for him the fact that this chunk of Americans supposedly not getting taxed ARE getting taxed, i.e. the payroll tax. Otherwise, you're perpetuating a falsehood.

And if you're this determined to continue the Joe story, perhaps you should include the info that he "hates" Social Security as well. An undecided voter?

Posted by Anon. | October 16, 2008 4:28 PM

It turns out he is related to Charles Keating as well. Does McCain vet anyone?

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/16/joe_not_vetted.html

Posted by Political Junkie | October 16, 2008 4:28 PM

On the other hand, every mention of "Joe" includes the fact that his taxes would get cut under Obama's plan.

On the other hand there is no mention of the fact obama raising the SS tax would put joe's newly purchased biz out of biz. No mention of the fact obama said he will raise taxes on people making over $250,000, joe's possible income if he bought the biz.

Because as reporters like to forget that's how this all started. joe, but that's not his real name cause nobody in The History Of The World ever went by their middle name especially if maybe the had the same first name as dad, was concerned what obama's tax increases on SS and obama's promised tax increase on people making over $250,000 would do to a new business owner.

Posted by hadenough | October 16, 2008 4:30 PM

This is VERY interesing over at TPM:
oe: Tax cheat, unlicensed and Keating family member
October 16, 2008, 2:48PM

So, let me get this straight. Joe "the plumber" Wurzelbacher has no license to practice plumbing, has neglected to pay his taxes and is a relative of the Keating family. The first two points are largely irrelevant, though they will no doubt be studied by the media for hours. But the question the media should be asking is this: Is Wurzelbacher a McCain campaign plant, who was deliberately placed in Obama's path in Ohio? And if so, what does this say about John McCain's relationship with the Keatings, which he insists ended years ago? And if they say he wasn't a plant, is this just too much of a coincidence to believe?

Posted by Deanna | October 16, 2008 4:34 PM

On the other hand, every mention of "Joe" includes the fact that his taxes would get cut under Obama's plan.

But Marc, it doesn't matter what would happen to his actual taxes. Joe cares about the hypothetical taxes he would have to pay once he gets his hypothetical license and buys his hypothetical business, because Obama will hypothetically raise taxes on people making $150K and when he says he won't, he's lying.

Posted by K | October 16, 2008 4:36 PM

Not sure if the ever dwindling Republicans have actually ever done their own taxes, but surely some of them most know the difference between "total income" and "adjusted gross income"?

Surely they must know that even if this guy who isnt really named Joe and isnt really a plumber grossed $250,000, after adjusting for payroll and tons of other small business deductions, he would clearly benefit from Barack's proposed tax plan to cut taxes for all with AGIs below $250k?

So there are only 2 options here: either (a) they know and are lying (par for the course), or (b) dont know, and are still offering opinions on stuff they dont know (also par for the course). There is no option (c).

The only way they avoid a landslide is if the Bush appointees in the DOJ are able to conduct the illegal and unconstitutional voter suppression set in place by Alberto Gonzalez and Bradley Schlozman.

This not-Joe not-a-plumber thing is pathetic and embarassing for all who buy into it.

Posted by Dan | October 16, 2008 4:38 PM

JtP did his civic duty by trying to hold a candidate accountable for his policies - something every single hack in the MSM has consistently avoided doing - and "liberals" respond by smearing him. Some of us have been aware of the fascistic tendencies of many of Obama's supporters for some time, but hopefully these latest smear attempts will show even more people what might happen if BHO gets elected.

It's also interesting that the MSM is spending so much time discussing someone who showed that it's possible to do the job they refuse to do.

In any case, now that JtP is famous, it's time for "Pete the Prosecutor" to take questioning Obama to the next level.

Posted by 24AheadDotCom | October 16, 2008 4:42 PM

"On the other hand, every mention of "Joe" includes the fact that his taxes would get cut under Obama's plan."

That's not the way Obama defended his plan. He said Joe would have benefited earlier, before he made his riches beyond $250K.

Someone has to pay. Obama's plan will hurt small businesses.

Posted by 4McCain | October 16, 2008 4:49 PM

The funny thing is, the guy was playing football in his own front yard when Obama walked up to him.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418

Quote:

Mr. Wurzelbacher was playing football in his front yard with his son, Joey, on Sunday afternoon when Mr. Obama made an unscheduled stop to go door to door greeting voters and asking for their support.

But that will not prevent people from claiming that this is some kind of McCain operation. Insane Andrew Sullivan is already on the case.

And since he isn't licensed, the City of Toledo Plumbing Board of Control may consider a punishment for Wurzelbacher. That should teach him about speaking up to his betters.

Posted by Kevin P. | October 16, 2008 4:52 PM

"Some of us have been aware of the fascistic tendencies of many of Obama's supporters for some time, but hopefully these latest smear attempts will show even more people what might happen if BHO gets elected"

"fascistic" and yeah, you indirectly support Palin?

Something of an oxymoron?

Posted by AlexS | October 16, 2008 4:53 PM

Kevin,
YOu might want to take your complaints about the outing of Joe the sort of Plumber up with the McCain campaign, since it was John Maverick who brought him into the discussion last night.

Posted by AlexG | October 16, 2008 4:54 PM

My wife and I will probably end up making more than $250k of taxable income in 2008 and we're fine with paying more taxes. (Note that paying taxes is NOT the same as making a donation, but it IS patriotic; at least if this flag-flying, hard working, 3x Vietnam veteran knows anything about it.)

"Joe" knows nothing about business and probably hasn't seen close to $250k in a year. Let me tell you, in southern Michigan (not far from Ohio) $250 is NOT middle class, it's wealthy. We're glad to have it now, don't expect to be wealthy long, but do want to retire and get old in an environment run by Obama and other progressives, not by Rethuglican racists. (Be interesting to ask "Joe" about race relations, I'd bet.)

Posted by Splendid One | October 16, 2008 4:54 PM

The New Palin. Blue collar folks who don't vote the right way will be destroyed.

The story is that Joe, if he's successful in his business, will be punished by the Obama plan. Not Warren Buffett, Joe the plumber. Obama wants to punish success, he wants to spread Joe's money around to people who vote the right way.

Posted by Thomas | October 16, 2008 4:55 PM

Sam is Charles Keating's grandson. Enough said.

Posted by Lisa | October 16, 2008 4:57 PM

Whatever he is, the concept of "Joe the Plumber" came across as trite, phony, and stupid. It appears that most of America agrees with me.

His exposure is just a long line of examples in the pathetic mockery that the "MSM" continues to make of itself. Whatever happened to standards and journalistic integrity?

Posted by Joel | October 16, 2008 4:59 PM

(Be interesting to ask "Joe" about race relations, I'd bet.)

Posted by Splendid One

I'd bet you spend a lot of time 'asking' people about race relations.

Posted by hadenough | October 16, 2008 5:00 PM

Joe the plumber looks like a front for McCain's campaign. He's been spewing talking points all day and doesn't even appear to want to pay SS, let alone the property tax liens he has. Sounds like a dead beat to me.

Posted by dave | October 16, 2008 5:01 PM

So, with the GOPs latest lawsuit against Ohio, does that mean that Joe is ineligible to vote because his DMV record won't match his registration record due to the misspelling?

Is Joe the Plumber destroying the fabric of democracy?

The GOP deserve to be mocked for the next 8 years for how consistently their rhetoric undermines their very own efforts.

Posted by Martin | October 16, 2008 5:03 PM

Samuel J. Wurzelbacher had a little trouble with the wife in 1997:

OBAL 3/28/1997 COST APPLIED TO : SHELTER (10000260) 32.00
OBAL 3/28/1997 COST APPLIED TO : COURT COSTS (10000100) 30.00
OBAL 3/28/1997 COST APPLIED TO : BATTERED WOMEN (3%) - COUNTY (10000230) 10.00
OBAL 3/28/1997 COST APPLIED TO : SPECIAL INVESTIGATION (10000190) 50.00
GEN 3/28/1997 COMPLAINT FOR DIVORCE FILED
GEN 3/28/1997 RULE 18, INJUNCTION GRANTED SEE JE. 005/513
GEN 3/28/1997 SUMMONS & COPY OF COMP. SENT CERT. MAIL #P169-051-664 TO: SAMUEL WURZELBACHER, 30 DERBYSHIRE RD. TOLEDO, OH. 43615.

Posted by Steve | October 16, 2008 5:03 PM

He also cheats on his taxes? http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/16/123539/11/77/632515

Posted by Dude | October 16, 2008 5:05 PM

Splendid One:

Good for you! You are rich. How wonderful, too, that you are nothing like that racist Rethuglilcan (but I surely repeat myself) "Joe," who in your non-racist class snobbery simply cannot -- can NOT -- be in your socioeconomic stratum.

What a splendid display of fascist thuggery is going on here, and you, pal, are the class winner.

Oh, and please stop calling attention to yourself, Mr. Patriot, 3X Vietnam Vet, Flag-waving, Richy-rich. That way we racists won't think you're so insecure.

Posted by Nomennovum | October 16, 2008 5:07 PM

Sam Joe the Not Plumber is also under the impression that we "liberation" Iraqis.

Posted by SarahG | October 16, 2008 5:08 PM

@ KevinP

Give me a break. All the other plumbers in this town pay for a license and manage to make a profit. This guy is just trying to game the system.

Something tells me you wouldn't stand up for a Hispanic worker doing the same...

Posted by JohnforAmerica | October 16, 2008 5:10 PM

Next debate: Joe the Pumber v. Bob the Builder.

Posted by hard_bop | October 16, 2008 5:10 PM

Wow, now we've gone and found out that the guy had a divorce in 1997.

This guy has been targeted for dirt faster than anyone else ever. The fascism of some Obama supporters is amazing.

Posted by Kevin P. | October 16, 2008 5:11 PM

Funny how the BamBoosters know so much about union work rules that they refer to the industrial shop stewards for details. Can someone get us the arcana on whether Ohio and/or the City of Toledo require licensing for plumbing contractors only, or also for their entire workforce. It really is an essential question that has to be clarified before we can hold the election.

I mean, if hairdressers and barbers have to be licensed. That much we know. So it's a good thing Joe didn't claim to be one of that lot.

Hopefully the Dem Congress under Bam and the AFL/CIO leadership will pass laws requiring journalists, bloggers, and pundits like Mr. Sullivan to get licensing for their occupations, too. All that unregulated, mindless commentary really needs straightened out by hierarchical unionization...

Posted by MarkG | October 16, 2008 5:12 PM

Please Kevin P., this guy went and called a press conference ON HIS OWN FREAKING DRIVEWAY.

Which is one more than Sarah Palin has held.

Posted by SarahG | October 16, 2008 5:13 PM

Freedom of information = Fascism? How do you figure?

Posted by hard_bop | October 16, 2008 5:13 PM

Yes, JohnforAmerica, I am automatically a racist. Wow.

Actually, I believe in economic liberty and I think it is unconstitutional and wrong for an ordinary worker to be subject to licensing and regulations like this:
http://www.contractors-license.org/oh/Ohio.html

But keep thinking I am racist since only racists can question the narrative.

Posted by Kevin P. | October 16, 2008 5:14 PM

SarahG,

You said, "Joe the Not Plumber is also under the impression that we "liberation" Iraqis."

I am pretty sure Joe thinks be "liberated" the Iraqis. I am pretty sure he's right, given that the evidence is overwhelming.

Here's a hint for you, Sarah: When making fun of someone's intelligence, you better make damn sure you don't come across as a total knucklehead. So, before submitting a comment, check (1) your grammar, (2) your spelling, (3) your punctuation, and (4) your facts.

Posted by Nomennovum | October 16, 2008 5:14 PM

hadenough,

Let me try to understand this. Joe is buying a business that NETS over $250K/year?? Using STANDARD valuation metrics, that business would cost $MILLIONS to purchase! So you are saying that Joe somehow has a Million or two available to buy that business? OK, let's assume that Joe is rolling in $$$, so it's now your opinion that this business NETTING over $250K will fail because it will pay a couple extra points on income OVER the $250K??? Well there is a VERY easy "fix" ... just HIRE another helper, then you're under the $250 ...

what is WRONG with you hadenough?

Posted by truth seeker | October 16, 2008 5:14 PM

Want something funnier? How bout Joe the plumber being the son of Robert Wurzelbacher? How bout Robert Wurzelbacher having done 40 months in prison for the Lincoln S&L scandal? How bout Robert Wurzelbacher being the son-in-law of Charles Keating? Can it get any worse for McCain?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-j-elisberg/john-mccain-and-the-joe-t_b_135319.html

Posted by Arlopop | October 16, 2008 5:19 PM

Arlopop,

"Can it get any worse for McCain?"

Sure. We could find out that he was friends with terrorists and racist hate-mongers pretending to be men of the cloth, a member of some nasty socialist party, or a fellow traveler of radicals of assorted strips. Or we could find he has a resume shorter than Mickey Rooney.

Posted by Nomennovum | October 16, 2008 5:26 PM

racist hate-mongers pretending to be men of the cloth

Oh right, I forgot about that Hagee guy...

Posted by SarahG | October 16, 2008 5:29 PM

what is WRONG with you hadenough?

Posted by truth seeker

You are funny.

I mean they way you ignore the questions joe the plumber asked obama when obama stopped to talk to joe. That's hilarious.

Oh and the whole 'STANDARD valuation metrics'! That is good. According to you it's just not possible for a small biz owner to go under "because it will pay a couple extra points on income OVER the $250K." Just a couple of little points. Those little points, they are so cute. And of course tack on the 'couple extra points' obama promised joe he would pay in SS. Those'couple of extra points'! Feh! Couple of extra points. No really you are joke. And I'm being kind.

Anyway last thing you'd want to deal with is the acual questions joe asked obama.

Posted by hadenough | October 16, 2008 5:31 PM

"Oh right, I forgot about that Hagee guy..."

So, you agree that BO's associations with an even more vitriolic and hateful man like Reverend Wright, who unlike Hagee, is a proven racist and America hater, is something to be condemned, I assume.

Good for you.

Posted by Nomennovum | October 16, 2008 5:36 PM

Who the hell is this knuckle dragging yahoo to question THE ONE!!!!!!

He must be DESTROYED!!!!!!!!

Fellow Obama supports, let's start digging!!!!!! Find all the dirt there is on this McCain hood oriment and throw it out there. Then lets just start making stuff up and throw that out there too.

Remember, it's for the greater good! Like out leader tells us, if we just tell the lie over and over and over again people will think it's true!!!!!

NO MERCY ON JOE!!!!!!!!!

People need to learn: YOU DO NOT QUESTION THE ONE!!!!!!

Posted by Jim Howard | October 16, 2008 5:48 PM

KevinP,

I didn't call you a racist. I made a guess that you wouldn't do the same for a hispanic worker. Feel free to say I'm wrong, but you didn't answer my question. It's easy to say on a blog, harder to live up to in real life.

And if you don't think that plumbers should be licensed, how do you propose to know who knows what they're doing and who is a bullshit artist making money? I suppose you could "do the research", but this leaves an awful big hole that allows the charlatans to make money and prey on the elderly and less informed in the meantime.

And it's not questioning the narrative. Actually, Obama supporters are questioning the narrative that THIS GUY provided and then John McCain chose to use as a centerpiece in the most important debate of his career.

Andrew Sullivan, who you call "insane" has been "questioning the narrative" for some time now, especially in regards to Palin. Why don't you respect him for it?

Posted by JohnforAmerica | October 16, 2008 5:52 PM

4McCain said "Someone has to pay."

Who's gonna pay if we elect McCain?

Posted by Oracle | October 16, 2008 5:57 PM

Nomennovum, Jim Howard, hadenough:

Most Americans thinks you and your candidate suck.

Deal with it.

Posted by Oracle | October 16, 2008 6:03 PM

If this is true: "On the other hand, every mention of 'Joe' includes the fact that his taxes would get cut under Obama's plan," how was this fact not aired in 90 minutes of debate and hours of analysis last night? I mean, no one said, "Uh, can we get a figure of how much this plumbing co. nets yearly?" That's as much Obama's failure as the media's, but it's certainly a media failing as well.

Posted by Mike | October 16, 2008 6:08 PM

What made this thing news is not the question that was asked (much less who asked it) BUT THE ANSWER OBAMA GAVE! Poor Barry, caught off guard, used to only adoring fans, lapsed into Ayers/Wright speak and almost recited the Communist Manifesto ("To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability"). Politicians heretofor have at least tried to pretend taxes are simply needed to run the government, not to create a classless society. Thus, Obama's answer became a major news item.

Leave it to tliberals to turn the whole thing upside down and tar and feather the guy who just asked a question. That's what Obama was there for.

Posted by Matt | October 16, 2008 6:21 PM

Some still don't get it. Joe works for the plumber and would like to buy his business some day in the distant future. He has until then to get his license as a plumbing contractor. As a contractor you have to have a license. You do not have to employ only licensed plumbers in your workforce.

The plumbers' union would like to require everyone who works for a plumber to be required to have a license. Unions like that kind of economically ruinous regulation because it keeps their bosses in power and turns them into mafiosi labor syndicates. It allows unions to create an artificial workplace shortage, turning workers into supplicants to the union hierarchy.

And this is exactly the kind of stuff the unions expect the Dems to implement soon on a nationwide basis. That's why the unions are taking their members' dues and lavishing them on anti-GOP advertising in various places -- without allowing the union members to have a say in how their dues are spent.

Posted by MarkG | October 16, 2008 6:22 PM

JohninAmerica:
KevinP,: I didn't call you a racist. I made a guess that you wouldn't do the same for a hispanic worker.

What BS this is. "You're not a racist, you'd just treat a Hispanic differently". This is the lamest backpedaling I have ever come across.

Incidentally, I am a brown skinned immigrant and naturalized citizen. I am a capitalist and encourage everyone of all colors to seek their own success in whatever field they choose without government interference. Licensing of plumbers and other trades does nothing to ensure quality of service. Instead, it raises the cost of entry to a field, thereby keeping rates high for the incumbent plumbers. Moreover, the people who tend to be kept out tend to be those who can't afford the rigmarole and hassle of licensing - ironically, many Hispanics will be disproportionately affected.

The vast majority of workers in the free market provide services without licensing and government regulation and they do just fine. There are plenty of other safeguards to protect consumers.

Posted by Kevin P. | October 16, 2008 6:27 PM

When you start off by saying that "Joe" is not Joe's name because he uses his middle name, and then say that he's not a plumber because he only works for a plumbing company and does plumbing 12 hours a day but isn't licensed yet, then the rest of your silly opinions have to be seen through the lens of how incredibly bent you are to see and perpetuate your own point and negate reality at all cost.

I am "Mike the inventor". I make more than $250K adjusted gross income and I started unemployed with $500 and three kids. I currently pay 45% of my entire income in taxes (not including consumer/sales taxes and property taxes). I just paid off an income tax bill for $120,000 to the IRS and $30,000.00 to my state and it HURT (But, I heard rich people didn't pay taxes). I didn't complain then, and I am NOT complaining now but I will say, when one of you guys creates even ONE job and 150K per year in govt revenue ($5.00 of which will end up making it to your vaunted "programs"), then you can tell me how you want me to live my life. If Obama raises my taxes, there will be at least one heart-breaking layoff and the price of my much needed-product will rise accordingly - I promise - and my life will not change. And before you call me greedy, know that I spent almost as much on charitable causes than I spent in taxes last year and every year - most of which I can not write off. And remember, since greedy, rich people donate most of the charity money in this country - charitable causes will suffer big time if taxes are raised on the f"rich".

Under Obamasiah's rule, living expenses WILL rise, big time, even if your taxes don't; which they will. And those evil rich people you need a job from will not be able to hire you and their lives will not change; yours will.

Now, get out your tin-foil hats and beat me senseless with your words about how "Mike" is not my name because my birth certificate says “Michael” and I am not a real “inventor” because I’ve only invented one thing. I am sure you can only imagine that THIS former-liberal-evil-republican eats puppies. And go ahead: twist it, bend it, spin the snot out of it, and call me a complete fabrication. But regardless of what you say and how much you don't want to face this, reality will not change no matter how well intentioned you say you are.

And no, I won't give you info to verify anything, because if I tell you my full name or website, you will find me and throw rocks through my widows. You will create terrible scenarios and do your best to discredit me and those like me. I think Joe is a pretty brave guy because you peops are NASTY-mean!

Mike

P.S. I guess that makes me a racist, too.

Posted by "Mike the Inventor" | October 16, 2008 6:32 PM

Wow, some people seem to get very bothered every time anyone questions anything from Joe, a man who eagerly sought out media attention. I guess the right wants Joe to fill in for McCain. The less McCain himself is spoken about or even acknowledged, the more likely it is he might win.

Maybe the GOP can do a Joe the Plumber/Sarah Palin ballot and then McCain can just fill in for Joe at the swearing in part?

Posted by Carl | October 16, 2008 6:36 PM

Joe, a man who eagerly sought out media attention.

Clearly the fella arranged to have his house located in the neighborhood that Bam used as his stage prop for a door-to-door campaign event. Or did Joe -- worse yet: McCain! -- use his psychotelepathic powers to cause The One to walk almost into Joe's yard?

Some of life's mysteries are beyond mortal comprehension.

Posted by MarkG | October 16, 2008 6:45 PM

Say it ain't so! Joe LIED to Obama! He made up the whole premise of his question and certainly didn't say it was a hypothetical.

He has no prospect of owning the plumbing business, and in 2006, he only made $40,000, so he'll get a tax cut under Obama.

He should take his own advice and find out more about the candidates rather than wasting everyone's time with Republican talking points about the Iraq War (on MSNBC) and weird comments about Sammy Davis Jr. tap dancing when Obama did indeed answer his question very directly (to Katie Couric on CBS).

Posted by bob | October 16, 2008 6:47 PM

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418

Quote:

Mr. Wurzelbacher was playing football in his front yard with his son, Joey, on Sunday afternoon when Mr. Obama made an unscheduled stop to go door to door greeting voters and asking for their support.

But yes, if you feel he lay in wait to ambush Obama, you are probably right.

But: It was Obama who said that he wanted to spread the wealth. What power Joe has: he plumbed the thought straight into Obama's mouth!

Posted by Kevin P. | October 16, 2008 6:50 PM

I love how the obama supporters have turned into little Encyclopedia britannicas scouring every possible record (including printing Joe's address online) yet have issues with anyone delving into Obama's past. Any past associations are completey irrelevant and immaterial and a diversion.

More importantly though, Id really like to see the evidence that he is related to Keating as the people posting such stuff have said hes the grandson the son in law, have gotten his name wrong etc.

Fundamentally though, Obama didn't have to answer the way he did did he? He was the one saying he would spread the wealth around not Joe. So ultimately since the issue is Obama's utterance that sounds an awful lot like socialism, who cares what Joe's past is? The point is, what's obama's position and defending that position.

Posted by jr565 | October 16, 2008 7:08 PM

hadenough,

You don't seem to understand business at ALL, do you? IF a business was about to FAIL, that would be because it was NOT making a PROFIT. IF it is NOT making a profit, IT PAYS NO TAX. On the other hand, IF it IS making a profit THEN by DEFINITION it will NOT fail! Is that CLEAR to you now?

what is WRONG with you hadenough?

Posted by truth seeker | October 16, 2008 7:15 PM

Hi!
At least he is someone proud enough to use his middle name. Unlike somebody who wants to hide it:
Hussein.

Posted by Sam the elder | October 16, 2008 7:19 PM

I agree with jr565: A man who asks a question has his whole past exposed to the public; but we're not allowed to know anything about the man actually running for president. No matter how much dirt you dig up, Joe's past cannot be half as sordid as Obama's; how do you top Ayers, Wright, Rezko, Acorn, and — let's not forget — drug dealers? (And I'm just warming up.)

Posted by Matt | October 16, 2008 7:35 PM

Sam is Charles Keating's grandson. Enough said.

Well, I guess associations matter after all.

Posted by Barry Dauphin | October 16, 2008 7:42 PM

Well, here we go again. Not backpedaling my friend. I don't know how else to explain this to you...

I noticed that you didn't respond to the great majority of my post. I also think that you're probably lying about your background to score a point, but I concede there's no way you'd admit that.

Again, Sullivan, who you mock, has been questioning the narrative for some time. Why the disdain?

And again, why would you have a problem with questioning a narrative that THIS GUY provided and McCain used? He has press conferences in his driveway, he's eating this shit up. He's no innocent victim. Would you give the same benefit of the doubt to the other side?

And do you always defend liars and tax cheats, or is this new for you?

Posted by JohnforAmerica | October 16, 2008 7:44 PM

Joe has a plumbing business the same way Sarah Palin has a gas pipeline in Alaska.

Posted by simon | October 16, 2008 7:48 PM

JohnforAmerica, you're a partisan fool. It is pointless trying to discuss anything with you.

Posted by Kevin P. | October 16, 2008 8:01 PM

what is WRONG with you hadenough?

Posted by truth seeker

I will guarantee I don’t understand business like you do.

Please stop.

Posted by hadenough | October 16, 2008 8:03 PM

On the other hand there is no mention of the fact obama raising the SS tax would put joe's newly purchased biz out of biz.

Perhaps there's no mention of it, because it's not true. Joe's biz would thrive under it.

1. Obama's plan isn't increasing raising the SS tax at all - it's just increasing the cap of salary people get SS taxed on.

It's like this: currently you pay SS taxes on the first %97,000/yr or less. Under Obama's plan, you pay SS taxes on the first $102,000 or less.

And as this is payroll taxes, this also doesn't cost an employer any more money. So Joe could have a hundred employees and this tax would not affect him.

2. Obama's business tax isn't on $250,000 gross. It's on $250,000 net, *after all costs ahve been deducted*.

So if the company Joe wants to buy makes $250,000 gross, he will not be paying higher taxes under Obama.

3. Obama offers a tax credit for every single US job Joe provides for his employees.

Posted by jim | October 16, 2008 8:09 PM

Right KevinP. A registered independent that has never voted on the basis of party is a "partisan fool".

I note that you STILL didn't address your hypocrisy on Sullivan or "Joe". Thanks for stopping your BS though!

Posted by JohnforAmerica | October 16, 2008 8:09 PM

So, if it's relevant that his first name is Sam, can we also say it's relevant that Obama's middle name is Hussein?
You've got to be kidding me--what possible relevance does the fact that he goes by his middle name have. My brother, a small business owner, goes by his middle name and is not voting for Obama because of tax issues, should he be investigated, too?
At least we know that McCain struck a chord because Obama's thugocracy is in full panic mode about this guy and trying everything to discredit him. What's funny is that no matter how much they discredit him, it was Obama's answer that pulled the mask off. This is going to be a game-changer, and the Dems know it--that's why the concerted effort to change the narrative to "Joe" and away from Obama's socialist response.

Posted by Ben | October 16, 2008 8:17 PM

Joe the Plumber: His real name and the other legal actions against him

webofdeception.com

Posted by Robert Lewis | October 16, 2008 8:20 PM

Ben, the plumber asked the candidate a legitimate question about his economic plan and it was Obama who put his foot in his mouth and revealed that he wanted to Spread. The. Wealth. I think this is what has stuck a needle deep into the lefty psyche. The lefties are going bananas over this guy. On other blogs, folks have pulled up his divorce records and found that he was - gasp! divorced. They found a "connection" (probably bogus) to the infamous Charles Keating based upon a common last name. They've found that he owes some back taxes on his property tax. This is all from the party of the "little people".

The press has dug deeper into his background in hours than they have into Obama's background in months. This guy is going to regret ever opening his mouth and asking the Messiah a tough question.

Posted by Kevin P. | October 16, 2008 8:21 PM

Joe the Plumber is the exact reason we have had George W. Bush in the White House for 8 fcking years.

Even after Obama explains his tax plan, this idiot still doesn't understand the meaning of "YOU WILL GET A TAX CUT."

GOd, talk about dense.

Posted by ye ye ye | October 16, 2008 8:23 PM

Okay, listen jerks, people are allowed to go by their middle names. I do it. My dad does it. 3 of my co-workers do it. It is our right. It doesn't make me a liar, or a republican operative. I go by Doug, but if you looked up my voter registration it'd say I'm James. It happens.

You want to criticize the guy for whining about potentially paying a few more dollars of taxes when he theoretically makes 250,000$ in income, by all means. Or pretending that he's a plumber or undecided or even just walking around looking like Frank Sobotka from the Wire- I have no problems with that.

But people are damned well allowed to use their middle names.

Posted by James "Doug" Hastings | October 16, 2008 8:40 PM

Robert Lewis, congratulations, your guys have found and posted his traffic tickets in 1993. And his home address and his mortgage. Nice. I guess this is what the rest of us have to look forward to if your candidate wins. An orifice search in case we decide to question the One.

Posted by Kevin P. | October 16, 2008 8:48 PM

Well done - you completely miss Joe's point. He's not talking about his current situation - he's talking about the future. If he were to buy this business, would he then be taxed more? Is it worth the time and money he will have to put in to buying the business if he's just going to lose money to additional taxes for someone who pays no taxes? Why should he bother?

At which point, you've successfully killed the entrepreneurial spirit as well as job growth. But hey, you got a one time payment of a couple extra bucks in your pocket as compared to the potential for sustained future wealth. No thanks - I'll pass.

Posted by Dan | October 16, 2008 8:57 PM

The voter-registration error highlight probably makes the whole thing worthwhile, since we can toss out "What about Joe the Plumber" at those seeking to purge the rolls.

Canada just enrolls everyone. Why can't we do that?

Posted by Deborah | October 16, 2008 9:13 PM

Oh, sorry. I thought this was the Atlantic Monthly website. Seems I stumbled onto RedState by mistake.

Oh, and for the record: a shill is a shill is a shill. "Joe" deserves everything he's got coming courtesy of Mr. McCain. You should ask Steve Schmidt how he feels about Joe getting all that play last night. Schmidt likely had steam coming out of his ears, and how I wish I could have seen that! Oh, well: at least it gets Palin off the front page of Asshat Weekly.

And there's nothing I like better than hard-core conservatives calling Obama (or anyone else for that matter) "fascist." Make up your minds: is he a socialist or a fascist? Or maybe you don't understand the mutually exclusive nature of the two ideologies.

Well, Obama's education plan may let you get that AA degree after all.

Posted by Brian MacDougall | October 16, 2008 9:51 PM

On the one hand, Joe went up and asked a candidate a question, and he followed up. More voters should do that; hell, the press should do that. He doesn't deserve to have his life ripped apart for a civic act--do we want voters to run from candidates doing the meet and greet, or to think "What about....oh, no, there's a camera, keep quiet."?

On the other hand he's basically fictitious--he isn't a real plumber and is not about to be earning $250,000 in either small business profits or income. He is not that hypothetical voter whose business can't expand under Obama, and it's perfectly correct to call the McCain people and him on that misrepresentation.

On the third hand (yes, I am a Cylon. Or a borg), he isn't playing "regular guy just asked a question, go away" but seems to be lapping up his 15 minutes.

Points to Ben Smith for his link to a local news team's interview with Al the plumber. (An actual plumber. Feels that health care and the economy are important issues. Worries about the present economomic climate.)

Which brings me to the fourth hand, which is that it would be cool to do a bunch of "Your Name Here the Plumber" interviews with plumbers all over, about how they see the issues and the nation's direction.

Posted by Deborah | October 16, 2008 10:02 PM

Lord, you right-wingers are a riot.

Got your knickers all in a good twist over the evil liberals scouring through poor ol' Joe's background. Meanwhile, the lot of you were likely giddy when Our Lady of Perpetual Outrage (Michelle Malkin) decided to do some 'citizen journalism' on the Frosts and whipped you folks into a frenzy over their granite countertops.

I know that the last 8 years have deluded most of you into thinking that you can have it both ways, but you're all about to get mugged by reality.

Posted by John S. | October 16, 2008 10:19 PM

Both my sons go by their middle names so I don.t find it unusual Joe would.What I find terribly unnerving is the reaction to a simple question.What happened to the "speak truth to power"that was so popular?Talk about having a chilling effect on free speech.

Posted by mymy | October 16, 2008 10:26 PM

Kevin P. writes: "This guy has been targeted for dirt faster than anyone else ever. The fascism of some Obama supporters is amazing."

The inability of McCain/Bush supporters to understand the nature of fascism is what's amazing. Fascists do things like invade other countries on made-up information. They do things like making torture an official state policy and spying on their own citizens.

Looking up public information isn't fascism, Kevin. It's called "gathering facts." Members of the reality-based community are good at it. Members of the Bush-McCain fan club are good at swallowing fantasies.

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | October 16, 2008 10:35 PM

I'd long thought very highly of you.

Until this post.

Posted by jsmith | October 16, 2008 10:42 PM

Wow. The Obama fascists are out in full force today.

Anybody who dissents from The One will be destroyed. Let's dig up every piece of dirt about him and put it out for the public to see. Let's destroy his livelihood. He MUST. BE. DESTROYED.

That's the way Obama and the Left works. Destroy good, hardworking Americans.

We know perfectly well where this leads - the fascist Obama people will continue to destroy everybody in their path until they have total control of government. That's their mission - take anybody who dissents from The One and destroy them.

Publish every embarrassing fact that they can find - so as to deter anyone from ever questioning The One again.

In fact, make fun of the fact that he uses his middle name instead of his first name!

That's the fascists of the Democratic Party. And it's not going to stop.

Posted by Al | October 16, 2008 10:48 PM

This is the third media mention of Joe not being his name. This is stupid. He goes by his middle name. Many people do. I know several. My father does and so do I. Why is this even an issue. It's an idiotic issue being made my media people who refuse just too damn invested in getting this socialist elected president. If the media even exerted half as much energy investigating Obama as they are doing with Joe (yes I used his middle name) we would not be on the verge of electing the least experienced, most unqualified and dangerous guy in history.

And he doesn't need a license for residential work, he can work under his bosses license as long as his boss is on the job with him. I have experienced this exact thing while doing renovations on my own home.

And this matters not at all. He asked a simple question and Obama responded with a socialist answer and that is hurting him badly so the media is running to his rescue again.

Posted by CW | October 16, 2008 11:08 PM

And he is not related to the Keating Wurzelbacher since that guy is 83 years old...

Posted by CW | October 16, 2008 11:13 PM

It's amazing that right-wingers STILL don't seem to understand that "OMFG SOCIALISM" just doesn't resonate any more with a vast majority of Americans.

Posted by Kate | October 16, 2008 11:25 PM

Which plumber do you think the guy works for?

http://www.homestars.com/companies/search?location[description]=Toledo%2C+OH&location[id]=&search_text=Plumber&x=0&y=0

Posted by Brian, Toronto Canada | October 16, 2008 11:38 PM

Since when is making $250,000 a year "average" or "middle" class? If he makes $250,000 a year and has to pay higher taxes, I should feel sorry for him? I should vote Republican to protect people like this? You got to be kidding.

Posted by cecilia | October 16, 2008 11:41 PM

Oh Joe... It's too bad you didn't take advantage of the Bush Economy a couple years ago. A guy with debt, little education, no job skills, and a $40K/yr income would have easily qualified for a $250K loan to buy that plumbing outfit you always dreamed of. Too bad.

Posted by dfx | October 16, 2008 11:42 PM

Devoted torture fan Al writes: "Publish every embarrassing fact that they can find - so as to deter anyone from ever questioning The One again. "

Yes, as opposed to the remarkable kindness shown to, say, Cindy Sheehan by the Cult Of Dumbya.

Uh huh.

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | October 16, 2008 11:52 PM

Liberal: "Obama offers a tax credit for every single US job Joe provides for his employees."

Showing your lack of business knowledge again.
Do you have any idea how much it cost to hire a new employee? On average a new employee cost between 8K to 12K per employee in most industries. So why is a company going to spend 8,000 to get a 3,000 credit, idiots?

Obama's $3,000 credit is pis*ing in the wind on the business cost of new hiring and is only meant to sucker people who do not know better. As factual pointed out by "Mike the Inventor", businesses don't pay taxes, customers do and an owner is not going to reduce profit by just eating the new tax. It will be passed along or the employer is going to cut expenses which means employees or a reduction in other spending which will snowball to other businesses. Recession, depression here we come.

Obama wouldn't know any of this obviously because he has never had an actual job that didn't involve spending other people's money.

Obama blew the question not Joe, so why did Obama lash out like an adolescent girl today at the questioner? How immature.

Posted by LogicalUS | October 17, 2008 12:01 AM

Gathering the facts, crushing a guys livelihood, whatever MLJ. We should dare not cross the One®. Of course we should not invade countries with fascist regimes, we be pals with them. After all, under Barry, we'll be one in the same.

Posted by mishu | October 17, 2008 12:12 AM

Live with it libs; like it or not, your life will be more expensive under the Obamasiah. Those evil rich people won't be able to hire you losers and keep their country club membership. And they will happily charge you more for the things you need. Hate 'em or love 'em, you depend on them and you want to bite the hand that literally feeds you. Ooooooohhhh they're so evil. Tax them enough and the jobs go over seas. You keep shooting yourself in the foot and wondering why your foot hurts. Ug. Stupidity. Pretty soon, you losers with jobs will be the richest people left. Then you will be taxed at 80% to cover those who want to have lots of kids and not work. If the Obamanistas get their way, you will soon acheive all your life's ambition: you will be the hated rich people. Unfortuntely, you won't be making any more money than you do now.

d

Posted by Digger | October 17, 2008 12:14 AM

Why are republicans so enamored with plumbers? First it was Nixon and G. Gordon Liddy, now McCain and Joe (not Joe). Oh yeah, McCain was already connected with Liddy, I forgot about that.

Posted by jeff | October 17, 2008 12:22 AM

I quote Brian from above:

"And there's nothing I like better than hard-core conservatives calling Obama (or anyone else for that matter) "fascist." Make up your minds: is he a socialist or a fascist? Or maybe you don't understand the mutually exclusive nature of the two ideologies."

Posted by JohnforAmerica | October 17, 2008 12:37 AM

Yeah! Brian has a dictionary! We're so proud of you for finding out the difference between the two and the corresponding mistake a few have made. I am so happy you have pointed out th