« By The Way.. | Main | DuHaime's Maine Gamble » Your Thoughts...02 Oct 2008 11:25 pm
On Palin, Biden, CNN's graphics, the television news election theme music, whether "vector" can be used as a verb, the direction of the race, whatever.
Comments (105)
She may have come in second, but she definitely won Miss Congeniality in this debate. 
Palin's content was occasionally decent, but also often incomprehensible, her style and confidence were very good. She has rescued her future as a viable candidate, that's the good news for her. The bad news is that she has only rescued her future for one segment of their base. She doesn't have the full package to even win their nomination, let alone the Presidency. The 08 race has not changed. Biden was genuine and competent, and had a killer moment when talking about his family. Rare to see something like that. He did what he had to do.
Palin did not embarrass herself or drool on stage...that being said her verbal projectile vomiting left me dizzy as if I were on my 5th drink. Biden started slow but when he warmed up he cleaned her clock. She had very little substance and very little facts on her side...there was no deer in headlights moments because she kept saying words...BTW...Joe's close was heartfelt and connected with the people we were watching this with...and his bitchslap of the "Maverick" thing was something that I have been waiting for someone to do for weeks...overall Biden in a cakewalk...
Just an interesting observation: There was no question about either abortion or guns, two issues which I think would have favored Palin.
The CNN poll shows that even though Palin beat expectations more than did Biden, Biden still won and a majority of people don't think she's qualified to be president. The media is falsely spinning this as a draw. But as an Obama supporter, I am glad. Because now McPalin can't go and whine that the media had it in for them. Gwen Iffel was fine, if anything too deferential to Palin. And so the viewer is left with an impression of someone who is better than a laughingstock but still not qualified to be in the office. There is stuff that the media can't say because they are scared of being called sexist, but we regular folks now. She came off as full of it, smug, annoying. Her voice really grates after a while.
She's clearly skilled at memorization. I bet she plays a mean game of Concentration.
Palin benefited from really low expectations, but I think if you ask yourself if she did anything tonight that most americans could pull off with five weeks of training, you'd pretty cleary have to conclude she did not. She didn't fall on her face. Give her a pat on the back. Don't reward her with the Vice Presidency.
I think what Palin really did for herself here was shore up her own base...in Alaska. She'll definitely be reelected there. In fact, much of what she said sounded to me like it was written for a reelection campaign. "I can't/won't answer your question, but let me tell you what I've done in Alaska."
I'm suffering from a 'folksy' overload, but I thought Biden killed when talking about the role of the VP (Cheney) and the moment with his family when he choked up. I can't get Tina Fey going "pew pew pew" out of my head.
Around 9:15 pm, it was apparent that Palin would do fine, that she wouldn't mess up. I think this caused viewers to then turn their attention to Biden -- to be curious about him (since they no longer had to worry about her). And they were impressed by him. In other words, viewers were expecting to pay attention to Palin all night, but when she did passably well from the start, they probably realized, "Oh, yeah - there's another person here to watch." So Palin's gaffelessness actually led people to put their attention on her opponent.
As someone who's a huge Obama partisan, I thought the debate tonight was a tie. I was impressed by Palin's performance. The idea of a tie seems to be the media consensus as well. What's interesting to me is that the tie narrative was prevalent in the media about the Mcain/Obama debate as well (I didn't watch that one), but the polls of undecided voters gave that contest to Obama by a singificant margin. A similar thing seems to have happened with the VP debate, which to me seems to be another indication of the bad fundamentals for the Republican candidate. Even when both candidates on stage seem to have fought to a draw stylistically, it seems that voters so far have tended to side with Democrats so far.
I thought that Palin was fine. Maybe I'm too biased, but I didn't think that she connected with the average voter. She spoke in generalities and repeated the same phrases. I thought Biden was excellent. I became a little weepy at the end when he spoke about his family tragedy. I was worried before the debate about Biden's performance, but I thought he really conveyed a sense of empathy and understanding with the plight of the average American. I loved the part where he said that he was better off than the average American, but that he still understood. I'm not sure what independents thought of this debate, but I think as a self avowed Democrat that Biden came across as more sincere than Palin.
As with the McCain/Obama debate, I brought my 80s/90s-formed prejudices about how debates work, watched the debate, thought it would play basically as a tie or narrow GOP win, and was then shocked to find that a solid plurality or majority gave it to Obama/Biden. I think two things are going on. First, people are tired of zingers. They're tired of divisiveness. They want collegiality, maturity and substance. I am absolutely shocked to see this -- I never thought it would happen. Second, the actual factual landscape of what's happening in the political world is overwhelming whatever the candidates might do in terms of performance. I thought the extremely inarticulate older woman in the CNN focus group after the debate put it clearly: "I just liked his answers better. On what needs to be done. On the economy." We're not in the "Yeeargh"/"he sighed" universe at the moment. People are in economic trouble, they see bad things happening economically on their TVs, and they are going to vote for someone who seems to have a grasp of the problems and a plan to do something about them.
The important thing is that the Cubs are losing 7-0 to the Dodgers. Chuck Todd will have a pleasant surprise when he's done doing politics tonight. Re: Debate. The top of the ticket is all that matters and the VEEPS reflect up. In that sense, I think voters thinking "Biden won" is only useful in that they may have a better impression of Obama. So, if target groups thought Biden won, then it's a win for Obama. And vice versa for Palin.
I've only heard clips of the debate (am waiting to watch it with my girlfriend) but I don't understand any analysis that considers expectations. It's not relevant. We're not looking for a President and Vice President who are less stupid than our preconceived notion; we're looking for the most competent politicians.
Palin will make the base remember why they love her (so folksy! so outsidery! such a breath of fresh air!) and make Dems and people of reason remember why they think she's a cipher. Undecideds will cross Palin off as a reason not to vote for McCain. She will recede to a curiosity -- fundraising, right-wing radio, etc. For Biden, this is a re-birth.
Ambinder -- Palin talked about a tax credit on health, without mentioning the tax on the benefit. So she was distorting and Biden was correcting. Moreover, the McCain camp has cited a $3.6 trillion tag for the benefit tax. You can't get there without applying the payroll tax. You've asserted that this isn't the case. I'd ask you to see how the numbers add up then. In year one of the plan, as the CBS fact check showed, people will come out ahead. But if medical inflation continues at anything like it has over the last decade, that changes and changes dramatically very quickly. CBS erred by stopping at year one. And if they omitted the payroll tax it is also likely they erred.
Ifill won. In other news, Bam will win the election. McPalin have no chance, no matter what nonsense Obiden spout. The out-party disadvantage will cause the change. That's all. The economy Bam inherits and the division amongst House Dems will lose him the Congressional majorities in '10.
First, its frustrating that the expectations were so low, that all Palin had to do was recite her programmed talking points. Second, though Palin must've been endlessly prepped and saturated with her oppo-reasearch, she was not prepped with actual knowledge of the issues. Hence, she constantly went back to attacking Obama and Biden's track-record's, instead of giving informative answers about the issue at hand. Third, because Gwen Ifill neither asked a single follow up question, nor did she make sure to keep Palin (or Biden) on topic, Palin gave a passing performance. This was a Charlie Gibson quality performance not a Couric-level performance; but that's not because she knows any more than she did last week, its because Ifill, like Gibson, mostly let Palin off the hook.
Biden was good. I mean really good. I mean shockingly, slap-your-momma-I-don't-believe-it good. The polling showed that Biden exceeded his high expectations almost as much as Palin crushed her ridiculously low expectations.
I am absolutely sick of people lowering the bar for the highest office in the land so low that a vice presidential candidate can use the term "Joe Six pack" in her vernacular and it is glossed over as being connecting to the American people. I don't want another imbecile in the White House. I believe that it clear why that is a bad idea. I want the smartest person in the room in the White House. I thought Palin was rhetorical and scripted. She almost at times seemed like a windup robot that is speaking despite of what the question is being asked. Palin never answered the question about her "Achilles Heel", she glossed over any specifics for that matter and she only talked in terms of generalities. She was not specific. She lost this debate hands down and she is not fit for the office.
Biden was fantastic. He seemed real and made an emotional connection, in addition to sounding expert on every topic. Basically, Joe is a very real, very likable guy, gaffes and all. Who can not like this guy?
Major Biden gaffe on Lebanon tonight. Media not covering Biden's Lebanon gaffe. First he said Hezbollah was kicked out of Lebanon. Biden's suggestion of moving Nato forces into Lebanon is not practical. Nato is seen as a puppet of the U.S in the middle east and that idea of moving nato into lebanon has long been rejected. Sounds like a good idea but the UN blue hats are the only thing the shia in Lebanon will agree to. This was discussed two years ago and Nato and Hezbollah were both against it.
The Luntz focus group that gave the last debate to Obama.. ...said this one was all Palin's. Only two hands otherwise...
I thought Palin beat expectations, but her expectations were incredibly low. On the merits, Biden crushed her. If you look at the sheer substance and detail of his answers vs. hers, it was like seeing an NFL team vs. a Division III college team.
I would have REALLY liked to hear Palin being asked to actually answer the questions she was being asked. She is infamous for not doing that and I had hoped Ifill would have been the person to confront her hard and make her answer. Her answers, frequently made from her notes, often had no connection to the question. I guess inability to answer questions might be the Achilles Heel question she did not answer! Good job Joe!!! I would haave had a heck of a time not to slam her and Biden's restraint was remarkable! She lost. Period. But, McCain will be thrilled that she did as well as she did and we'll see how soon she is on Meet the Press!( though with Brokaw in the McCain camp, it may be very soon!)
No surprises, except that Ifill was terrible. Why do so many bloggers have the proverbial hard-on for her? In other news, Manny the malingerer continues to rake for the Dodgers.
Biden was very very strong, confident and had the command. Palin was simply weird. She did not answer the questions, she just repeated the talking points. And she wants to be another Cheney and have his powers!!
Palin did not fail. However, if that is the best thing that can be said for you, how is that a good thing?
OMG, Joe Biden hammered McCain again and again. And Palin was into herself and was not even consistent.
I find Biden more impressive than Obama after this. I don't agree with him much, but he has conviction and experience. He's lying about some of it, but he's convincing as a liar. And being able to be good at lying is a key ingredient to leadership. (Sadly that's not a joke, look at history and psychological studies) In some respects I found Palin more impressive in this debate than McCain was in his. I think this is partly because of lowered expectations, but also she came off "friendlier." She said nice things about Biden's wife, etc. (She screwed up a bit after his emotional moment though) Like she's someone you might want to meet and maybe even have work somewhere in the Department of Energy. As VP? Well maybe not. She does repeat stock phrases too much and avoid certain questions. Still she's not the embarrassment I feared. So basically I think this means the election is essentially still McCain vs Obama. Going by all evidence so far this means McCain will lose. However Palin will likely mature and become a venerable figure in Alaskan politics in the years to come. Biden will be Vice President than retire as I think it's unlikely he'll run for President again or that Obama will die.
All those years in Washington have given Biden a silver tongue; the man lies with ease. Now he's Obama's best friend... my, my, my.
Mark this day down in the history books as a day for gender equity:
Question on these post-debate focus groups/polls... Do they only sample people who sat and watch the whole debate? Because someone who just tuned in and saw the first 20 minutes saw something very different than people who watched front-to-back.
Joe must have mentioned "middle class" like 50 times while Palin was clueless about middle class.
She kept repeating herself and someone there said she was reading off of note cards. Is that allowed at a debate? I thought not. She wants to increase the VP's powers over Congress??? That is a gaffe to me.
In the fact checking, I'm not seeing anything on Palin's assertion that we're down to "pre-surge levels" in Iraq. Biggest mistake of night?
I thought Gov Palin exceeded expectations by being able to string together coherent sentences. However, she was reading note cards throughout the debate. Fine for high school debaters, but not so hot for someone aspiring to the #2 job in our country. She also did not answer the questions that were asked. It was like she was just scripted to get through the content on her note cards. At some point, she needs to be able draw on her own store of knowledge and be able to integrate this knowledge into a coherent world view and governing philosophy if she is to be taken seriously. I am still unsure that she can do this, based on the evidence we have so far. On the other hand, Sen Biden was knowledgeable on the issues and answered the questions that were asked by the moderator. His command of the issues was superior to Gov Palin's and he demonstrated himself to be a qualified candidate for either executive position on the ticket. He is genuine and authentic. I think he won the debate.
Sarah Palin came in with low expectations. People were waiting for her to make Couric kinds of misstatements. She made some inconsequential errors, like forgetting the name of the general in Afghanistan, but there was nothing Couric-sized in the deficits in her performance. I am sure she is happy it's over, and after watching her for an hour-and-a-half, so am I. If that is the standard to which she is held, people will applaud her successes tonight. But frankly, she was awful. She had a certain strength in the first part of the debate, like a student who has mastered the spelling of words for a class quiz, but clearly, when she didn't know the answer to the question, she simply changed the subject, and she frequently changed the subject. I am sure that when her handlers recognized the magnitude of their problem, that is precisely what they taught her to do, and I thought she did it rather effectively, but it will be interesting to count the number of times she didn't answer a question. My guess is that she didn't know the answers to at least half of the questions. As time went on during this excessively long hour-and-a-half, she was running out of steam. It was sort of like she exhausted everything she had to say, and instead of saying substantive things, she started to parrot over and over again the same tired cliches about John McCain being a maverick and reformer. I am not going to bother to compare her performance with Joe Biden's. To do so would be to dignify her performance as somehow on a par with his. They occupy different universes.
I'm quite amazed that Palin was able to talk for a good portion of 90 minutes and say virtually nothing of substance. Regardless of her merits as a candidate - or her disconcerting lack of merits, I should say - there's no way I could say so little in so long a period of time....that's gotta take some serious BS talent.
Two main thoughts: If it wasn't for the Couric interviews, I might have missed her inability/refusal to answer the questions posed to her. Remembering that this is the VP debate (and VPs don't really influence many voters), something that might actually matter: Biden: Palin: (I'd say horrible, but most of the time she didn't even register a defense of McCain.)
McCain/Palin is trying to win the Republicans, Obama/Biden is trying to win the Presidency
As an Andrew Sullivan reader stated: She was destroyed on the VP question...and that is the position she is running for
Biden let her off easy, but now SNL and the late night hosts will get their shot and it won't be pretty. I can already see a hillarious gag about her not answering questions showing up. And then something about her denying they're like Bush-Cheney but then failing to find anything wrong with what this administration has done and even endorsing Cheney's whacked interpretation of his job.
I don't watch events on CNN anymore, because the screen is so cluttered with junk. I surf to get analysis, but I watch the actual events either in MSNBC or CSPAN. CNN's and FOX's graphics are too much and almost cut off the view.
Biden was truly outstanding. Not just on the substance and the issues, but in his pitch-perfect tone. I loved his full throated attacks on McCain. And Lord am I tired of GOP talking points, even when delivered with a wink. Or esp. when done so. Palin of course exceeded the low expectations, but she's still way, way out of her league.
Palin faded at the end, and came off as crass and scripted. We'll see how the soundbites played, since she was invested in repeating them so much. Biden did great, particularly towards the end when he seemed to get more comfortable. The real shame was how clearly cowed Ifill was. I actually don't know what one should expect of a debate moderator, but she seemed off her game.
Palin proved that she can almost read answers off of index cards to questions that haven't been asked. I'm not sure if that would be considered a good thing outside of the heads of the Bush dead-enders.
There are three metrics for judging these debates; who actually debated better, who presented their parties message more clearly, and finally whose performance could inject a narrative into the campaign. Biden was a better debater because he was more involved in the actual questions asked and answers given. He took Palins line of not looking back and casting blame into a pretty powerful moment that McCain will be the same as the past. He took her answer on global warming and made sure that people knew that in order to fix the problem, you have to know what caused it. And she missed a great oppurtunity to score points for McCain on Iraq when Biden spoke about leading the cause in Bosnia, although it wasn't popular, when there is now relative peace in that region.
Sorry, I didn't mean to repeat myself like that.
From my vantage point, as a northerner presently living in Alabama, Sarah Palin clearly performed in a way that will galvanize the Republican base. The relevance of that, of course, is that more supporters will participate in the overall campaign, donate money, and make telephone calls, all of which can only help the Republican effort to win over independents. As a liberal-leaning observer, Sarah Palin seemed nevertheless effective at conveying a profoundly fresh personality and she competently discussed subjects ranging from foreign affairs to the economy. If I was interviewing for a job and she was the other person interviewing, I would take her quite seriously because there are a great many people in this country who make not only personal decisions but also business decisions (and in this case, political decisions) based on how the person makes them feel and not necessarily on the words coming out of their mouth. I have seen many many people succeed solely on the qualities of his or her personality, notwithstanding their ignorance with respect to critical issues or his or her lack of moral astuteness. So I think she did very well on balance in the climate that we have today in America, a climate that some how found a way to elect George Bush into a second term for precisely the reasons that Palin resonates - emotional and not rational ones. To Joe Biden's credit, he was very effective at drilling into the core points, and many observers may like Sarah Palin over the next few weeks but feel more comfortable ultimately with the experience and stability that Joe Biden might bring during what undoubtedly remain unstable times, both economically and with respect to foreign affairs.
She said something like "for people all around the world nucular [sic] weapons are the be all and end all--" Not for me, baby.
Ed Rollins of CNN is now talking about Sarah Palin as the leading Republican contendner for the Republican nomination in 2012. Maybe she can choose Lindsay Lohan as her V.P running mate.
"Vector" absolutely be used as a verb, when in the jargon context of directing aircraft by giving them a heading over the radio. Biden won.
Palin beat expectations by not falling apart on stage. But polls suggest she didn't improve at all as far as the people who have recently decided she's unfit to be president. The talking point answers to questions she wasn't even asked weren't exactly reassuring. Let's see how much she has improved in her next couple solo TV interviews. Biden performed very solidly, period. The lack of gaffes has to be a big relief for Democrats. I do wonder whether he won because of a Democratic lean among undecideds.
Frank Luntz' FG is always a good predictor of shifts that follow a debate. They presaged rather accurately the swing to Obama last week. Similarly, this will be a big swing towards McCain next week. This was a good debate because Palin and Biden are much better debaters and more appealing politicians than McCain and Obama. Palin is a huge political talent, the biggest natural talent of her generation, as Clinton was of his. As to Biden, I actually thought that he would win the Dem nomination, given his superior experience, knowledge (especially foreign policy) and pretty decent skills. I believed he would be the nominee (with Obama as the untried, Palin-like VP). If that had been the choice, this contest would be over long ago, Biden would have a 20 point lead. Luckily for Republicans, Democrats did not see it that way.
Yes, Joe must have mentioned "middle class" like 50 times while Palin was clueless about middle class. Biden was excellent while Palin was repeating talking points.
Biden won every single poll after the debate. Biden won CNN poll by 51/36. 55% still think that Palin is still not qualified to be president.
I think that on an absolute scale Biden was undeniably better. On a relative scale, where each is compared to the expectations/fears, I guess that Biden met expectations, and Palin exceeded them. I think that Palin benefited greatly from the format - no follow-up questions is the only reason that her canned responses weren't brought out into the daylight. I expected more from Gwen Ifill. She barely did okay...I expected a solid performance by her.
Sounds like Joe Biden won every poll convincingly. Biden won HCD Research Poll of 1200 likely voters by something like 65 - 35 margin.
Bottom line is that I don't see how anyone who wasn't already voting for McCain this morning would be voting for him tonight. She doesn't have the standing to attack Obama unless you were already supporting McCain. For the rest of us, it is someone we don't know well attacking someone we have become familiar with over the last couple of years. I think you saw that when she threw out the "white flag" comment and her ratings tanked. We saw the debate last week; we know Obama is not raising the white flag to terrorism and the battles we care about, so when someone without substance attacks someone with substance, it just looks ridiculous. The best that McCain can hope for out of tonight is trading baskets, but when you are down 20 in the fourth quarter, that isn't good enough.
She was warm, fresh, funny, confident, energetic, personable, relentless, and on message. She roasted Obama’s flip-flops on the surge and tea-with-dictators declarations, dinged Biden’s bash-Bush rhetoric, challenged the blame-America defeatism of the Left, and exuded the sunny optimism that energized the base in the first place. McCain has not done many things right. But Sarah Palin proved tonight that the VP risk he took was worth it.
This woman is dangerous. Not national material.
Palin is a good sportscaster, but tonight proved that as soon as she gets off her script, or talking points, or her narrow range of comfort on municipal Alaska issues, she's lost. This was her last chance to convince Americans otherwise. Now, barring a major gaffe or news event, I expect Obama will go on to win decisively in a month. And yes, "vector" can be used as a verb, as it is in aviation (navigation/traffic control).
Everyone is missing one major point and that is VP candidate has to attack the other party's presidential candidate and defend his top of the ticket. And in this Joe Biden won hands down and Palin lost miserably. Biden forcefully defended Barack Obama and attacked John McCain on every single issue. Palin did not even defend McCain on many occasions. Whenever she attacked Obama, Biden defended him and sort proved that her attack was not based on facts. Palin dropped the ball. As someone on CNN pointed out she is probably running for next cycle and does not give a damn to McCain.
She STILL doesn't understand what a Vice-President does. "“I’m thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chose to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president’s policies and making sure too that our president understands what our strengths are.” Wasn't one Cheney enough?
I think Palin rescued her own potential future career as a national candidate but won't do anything for McCain 2008. Definitely she flagged as the debate went on, as she kept repeating the same talking points, in many instances less well and in most instances with decreasing relevance to the question being asked. She doesn't wear well and keeps asserting her connectedness to average Americans, in contrast say to a Bill Clinton whose words demonstrated that very connection. With Palin it's just a claim supported only by continued repetition of the same talking points. Much like McCain's increasing assertions that he "puts country first" and is a maverick. If you have to say it about yourself, time and time again, it rings hollow and people come to treat it like claims that brand x toothpaste will make your teeth whiter.
"But Sarah Palin proved tonight that the VP risk he took was worth it." Proof is in the pudding. We'll know in a month if you are right or not, but I very strongly suspect not.
Well, Palin didn't fall flat on her face, as I was hoping, but she didn't prove she had the smarts for the job either. She did alright when she was asked questions that she'd obviously anticipated having to answer but, when asked something she (or, more accurately, her handlers) didn't anticipate, she stuck to the talking points regardless of the question. She also fell into her habit of stringing together a bunch of non sequiters in the hope that they'd somehow make sense. By simply answering the questions asked (for the most part) and being on point, Biden wiped the floor with her. By the end of the debate her relentlessly cheerful cheerleader persona had me wanting to reach through the TV screen to choke the daylights out of her. It may play well with some but, for me, she lacks gravitas. Clearly, she's no Hillary; she's maybe smart enough to be Hillary's personal assistant. But barely.
I didn't give my full attention to the debate, but from what I saw it was a clear win for Biden, who I am now sorely regretting not supporting in the primaries. I have a feeling I'm not the only one to feel that way, and that now he'll be a major asset to the ticket in a way he hasn't really been so far.
Judging from the CBS and CNN polls, I was relieved (and suspect I will be even more relieved in days to come)to find that by and large, Americans know a phony when they see one. If we were holding try-outs for the cutest sports journalist, Palin would have won. For Vice President, Biden won. Cute gimmicks and memorized talking points don't fool us anymore.
The expectations for Palin (especially after the Couric interviews) were so low that people were expecting her to get massacred. That obviously did not happen. In that sense, it was a victory for Palin. Aside from the expectations game, I thought the one thing that stuck with me was Palin's choice to ignore the question at hand, repeatedly. I've seen it happen in debates, but I've never seen it done so blatantly. The shorter format, especially since there wasn't any specific follow-up from the moderater, worked for Palin. She was able to stick to her talking points. Even with this advantage, Palin at times came across as someone enrolled in a public speaking course. Biden came across as dignified and capable. Palin came across as ordinary and likable. (I use the word ordinary in the the average person context, not in a pejorative sense.) Maybe this is just me, but it seemed like Palin was smirking and was in general a lot less respectful than Biden was of Palin.
I would only add that the bar patrons tonight gave it to Biden, but only about 60-40. People seem to trust Biden more, but they like Palin; still, the most common complaint was in the vein of "she had totally jumped the shark with that folksy crap." I still haven't seen the entire thing with full attention, but that's the view from the barstools. In Ohio.
Ambinder tells us that the House WILL vote on the bailout bill tomorrow. Yet Halperin says even the Whips don't know for sure. Ambinder is a devil, ensorcelling his readers with his "inside knowledge" which he receives from a sock puppet replica of Chuck Todd (a former co-worker at Hotline, natch).
What's painfully obvious is that Sarah Palin is totally clueless. Anyone who actually defends Sarah Palin as Vice Presidential material is clearly a blatant partisan who's opinion should be discounted, or a fool. The fact that John McCain is #1 among these Palin defenders is first among many McCain attributes that shows him totally unqualified to be President of these United States. As for the debate - it was a total bore. Biden started off horrible, slow, and frankly looking like he didn't know how to deal with the ditz he was up against. But he came back very strong, and stomped her at the end. The fact that he did it without ever lighting into her made it all the more impressive. If he had been let loose in a real debate with actual follow-up, he might have made her cry. Palin did fine for what was expected of her. Which as someone smart said, the expectation was simply not to poop her pants. She did what was asked of her in attacking Obama/Biden, and was lucky Joey was not allowed to fight back. But she is a grating personality, fakes that hokey bullshit way too much, repeats lies, and spews talking points without ever showing she has even a cursory, much less deep understanding of the issues. The idea that this fraud speaks to Joe Six Pack is a fricking joe. The only people Palin speaks to are blatant Republican partisans who have no choice but to defend her. Fortunately, it seems clear by now that the country is not going to elect a second country bumpkin with a "nice personality" that they'd rather have a beer with. And instead want actual adult leadership for a country in desperate peril from 8 years of republican rule. Palin might have beat expectations tonight, but it won't change a thing - Obama is going to continue to crush McCain and eventually blow him out, and Palin's reputation will remain as the latest national JOKE.
Anyone who watched the debate tonight should agree that Palin exceeded the general expectations for her performance at the debate. And that's what she did well, she performed the script that had been carefully written for her. Was her performance enough to retract the earlier, unscripted answers during the Couric interviews? To read reports that the debate was a draw is unbelievable. Biden was articulate and conveyed direction for this nation without hesitation. His answers were focused and precise. Palins answers lacked substance and focus. Her attempts to connect with Middle America did not shift the focus off the fact that she simply lacks insight into any facet of the political arena outside Alaska. No other female in politics has ever been so shielded from the press, Hands down-Biden won!
Every single time Gov. Palin said "maverick", the CNN swing voter tracking dials went down. Men and women both. Every. Single. Time.
Just curious: What kind of notes were the candidates allowed to have on the podium? Many analysts noted that Sarah Palin often skipped answering the moderator's questions and presented points she wished to make. Perhaps not coincidentally, several times it looked as though Palin used the few minutes Biden's was speaking to sift through cards and find the bullet points she wanted. Is this the difference between the debate and Palin's interviews--more deft use of crib sheets?
I just have to say that I love that Biden said "Bosniacs" when talking about Yugoslavia... and I'm so glad I had closed captions on because I got to read it again a few seconds later when it was transcribed as "Bosnia Acks". That has nothing to do with the substance of the debate (I thought Biden won), but it made me laugh pretty hard.
Of course, Bosniaks was referring to the people of Bosnia, and it is indeed the correct term.
Seth and his editor, you will be amused then by this: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/221642.php And, speaking presumptively for the mathematical community, I find "vector" as a verb abhorrent, as also "metric" for "measure".
RE: Bosniaks I have to admit that in junior high, I was trying to discuss the people of Poland and called them Polocks, which brought on a tongue-lashing from my teacher who told me I was rude and that it was a pejorative term and that the correct term was Poles. I was so embarrassed, I had no idea it was pejorative, and will never forget how stupid I felt that day. Of course, that lesson inspired me to become Seth's Editor. On a side note, what word in the English language when capitalized changes both meaning and pronunciation? polish / Polish
To add, Polish, when you add another o to it, becomes handy for making bread (while adding an o to Cokie makes a similar modification). Polack without the k is the Polish word for the male Pole, which, uncapitalized, is a major cause of wars. Very sensitive to perturbation, this set of words.
No candidate had ever benefitted from the soft bigotry of low expectations quite as much as Sarah Palin did.
Sarah actually did a very fine job in this debate, particularly given the difficulties she had to face. One of her biggest problems is the material she had to work with. McCain is simply on the wrong side of the issues that voters are most concrned about - deregulation, the economy, Iraq. Palin had the uneviable task of defending these positions. I think she is a gifted, natural politician with a real ability to connect with voters. But, at the moment, she lacks the substance to reinforce her natural gifts. I think that Republicans have made an error in pushing her to national prominence so early in her career. And they have made an even bigger error in shackling her to a presidential bid that was, at best, a long shot. They may have done irreparable harm to one of the rising stars that the party is going to need to re-invent themselves after the last catastrophic (for the Republican brand) 8 years. As for the debate, Palin managed to undo a lot of the damage done by her Couric and Gibson interviews. Which is a good thing. What she was unable to do was to effectively sell the McCain ticket. Biden was much more successful in describing (and selling) the goals and vision of an Obama presidency. Republicans will probably walk away happy with her performance because she passed a minimal competence threshold. I'm not sure that is a lot to crow about. Personally, I find her folksy demeanour annoying. Some people might find her shout-out to third graders cute and endearing. Cute and endearing are not qualities I look for in a VP. Biden did a decent, if somewhat erratic job. He had moments of brilliance where he hit hard and effectively. He also had moments where he sounded garbled and rambling. Overall, I would say that the debate was a personal win for Palin but a loss for the McCain-Palin ticket.
I thought she survived because she was able to keep it vague. However, it seemed to me that she didn't understand the issue when Ifill asked about Cheney's assertion of VP power. But since she said at the outset that she wouldn't actually be answering the questions posed, no harm no foul
Obviously, Joe Biden's wanted to hang the disaster of George Bush's presidency around the necks of McCain and Palin, and it was Sarah Palin's job last night to distance themselves from it by claiming they are "a couple of mavericks." But at times -- particularly near the end of the debate -- all the claims of mavericity made it sound like Palin and McCain were running against their own party. Not only did it seem more than a little forced and desperate, it also struck me as a losing proposition: If the Republicans are so bad you should be a "maverick," why wouldn't you want to replace them with Democrats? Who do you want to pull your sled, Gov. Palin? A sled dog, or a maverick cat?
It's amazing how well Gov. Palin can perform when there's no reporter there to follow up with "Specifically,..."
Josephine six-pack held her own: no strikes but no home run either. Biden's moment talking about his children was terrific but again: no strikes and no home run. I don't think it changed too many minds one way or other. All that happened was the Republican base could quit holding their breath...for now.
obiden was angry, sighing, and pretty much had had enough of the chick slapping him around early on in the debate. Not very presidential. Palin shut down obiden's 'just like bush' talking point. bush isn't running for president. It's about the future. Quick somebody tell the obama. Palin then went on to disappoint the "liberal media" and the 'well educated' 'creative class.' The difference is amazing when the big nets don't get to clip and crop a few minutes worth of video clips huh.
For undecideds who want to trust Obama and are doing due diligence, they will be reassured by Biden's solid, intelligent, gaffe-free performance. For Republicans hoping for evidence that both halves of Palin's brain function, they will also be reassured. The Obama campaign's goal was to maintain momentum. McCain's goal was to overturn the applecart. Obama won and McCain lost, no question.
I'm not too familiar with Ifill, but I wonder if her performance was tied to the controversy over her book deal? Maybe she didn't want to get too tough because she didn't want to be accused of bias? Which, of course, would just go to prove why people should recuse themselves when they have the appearance of a conflict of interest.
What a total tool. For starters, what is it about republicans that they think that NO RULE applies to them? She shoots right out of the gate and tells Ifill that (with some kind of righteous disdain) that she won't answer the questions whether anyone likes it or not? And then it was just a series of phake-pholksyisms (did she really say "dog-gone-it" to the point of nausea and a series of talking points that started to feel like a blunt intstrument to the temples. Could she possibly drop any more G's or D's in her quest to out-folksy Minnie Pearl? Sarah the windup doll. I mean, if the expectation was that she didn't make in her dress, I guess she passed. Thank God the reaction to all this theater from voters seems to be a collective groan. Biden was real and informed.
Thursday night’s debate showed the Country what we already know so well here in Delaware: Biden has the leadership qualities, the broad knowledge of the issues and the composure that is needed to be Vice-President. Biden showed once again the calm, cool and collected nature that has become his trademark in the Senate. His reasoned approach to Foreign Policy and his heartfelt appeal to the working men and women who desperately need some tax relief show that he and Senator Obama are committed to making this campaign about those in the middle class who have been forgotten under George Bush and now by Senator McCain. No more tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans funded by the middle class! The Obama/Biden team continues to demonstrate the strong, steady leadership that this Country so desperately needs and it is reassuring to see such class in a campaign. Joe Biden has always put Delaware first and you know that when he is Vice-President, he will take that same philosophy to Washington and put Country first.
Glad to see that "Maverick" has jumped the shark. Every time I hear that I puke a little in my mouth. The Obama camp could totally destroy it by putting together a funny ad with them riding horses and shooting pistols.... with George Bush.
Paline will be the next President if only because she knows how to say NUC U LAR.
I think that Palin benefited greatly from the format Well, it was dumbed down for her benefit: At the insistence of the McCain campaign, the Oct. 2 debate between Gov. Sarah Palin and her Democratic rival, Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr., will have shorter question-and-answer segments than those for the presidential nominees, the advisers said. There will also be much less opportunity for free-wheeling, direct exchanges between the running mates.
Palin was clearly rehearsed and scripted and nowhere was the limits of this more evident then her her inability to change tone after Biden choked up. A person who was more skilled, less of a puppet, would have a taken a moment to note the importance of fathers, she could have even noted how the Todd Palin has gone above and beyond to make sure their children don't suffer the consequences of a Governor's busy schedule. But she just kept going with teh same script, in the same tone, wtihout seeming to notice the moment that had just happened. I think that speaks against her ability to ""connect" with the American people, her supposed strength.
Just a thought about a map it would be cool to see, and I'm wondering if anyone's seen something like this -- I keep hearing about which field offices are being closed or opened and I'd love to see a national map with little red and blue dots for where each candidate has field offices.
joe biden ordinary man: UPDATED ON FRIDAY: OK, here's the deal, last night Biden did mention Katie's restaurant and Union Street. But I checked The News Journal archives this morning and, well, don't plan on trying to find it on Union Street anytime soon. But it eventually changed hands again - at least 10 years ago, maybe even more like 15 years ago - and was renamed C.J. Bart's, which according to features reporter Ryan Cormier in a May 2008 News Journal story became " a spot with an unsavory reputation as a magnet for panhandlers and worse."
I don't like CNN's 2008 election music or lead-in graphics. Too instense. The rousing, patriotic theme they used from 1992 to 2004 was MUCH better. They should bring it back. MSNBC's election music is nice.
We'll know the fat lady has sung when Rich "my little head loves Palin" Lowry and National Review runs a "We're Winning" cover and story on McCain/Palin.
For every man whose heart was won when Palin winked right at him, a woman's vote was lost.
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Just an interesting observation: There was no question about either abortion or guns, two issues which I think would have favored Palin.
Posted by Joe Rigney | October 2, 2008 11:28 PM