And whether Joe The Plumber is going to get his own television show....
Here's my take.
What's yours?
« Joe The Plumber | Main | Obama, The Friendly Socialist? » Your Thoughts On The Debate15 Oct 2008 11:05 pm Comments (84)
I, for one, welcome our new Plumber overlords, and wish to remind them that I can be useful in keeping the humans in line while working in the Draino mines. 
I am incredibly partisan, so I never trust myself as a judge of these things. But let me try to be fair: I thought that McCain had a great first 30 minutes, but I don't think he ever once for a second knocked Obama off his stride during the best minutes of his performance. But as the debate went on, McCain just started to lose it. He was huffing, puffing, rolling his eyes, raising his eyebrows. There were several times when I thought he was about to explode. I don't want him to be president.
Mr. Wilson was awfully nasty and angry that he is losing the election to this whippersnapper...let me roll my eyes and blink a lot and show how mad I am...and all those people at my rallies that yell, terrorist, kill him, traitor, they are great Americans...it was like he was taking debating points from Sarah Barracuda...McCain's worst performance and Obama is just sounded like the adult at the table. Bob S. stayed out of the way and refereed a good match...19 days to go...
Joe the Plumber needs to work on his math.
Exclusive: Obama – ‘Spread the Wealth Around’ Reveals Socialist Plan for America Interview with Joe Wurzelbacher Q: Do you fear this is the possibility of America turning more down the socialist road if Obama does become elected and if he is able to implement these policies? ...So yeah, it goes down the socialist – His healthcare plan scares me. You know, I don’t like people going without healthcare, but it’s not my job to pay for everyone else’s healthcare. -------------- If he is non-committed voted, then I am a saint!
Forget plumbing. I want one of those fancy gigs with Soledad O'Brian, where I can be totally uninformed, but still be a member of a focus group whose opinions are apparently valuable for some reason. And I'm sorry, but John McCain looked positively reanimated this evening.
I thought McCain "won" in that he was on offense far more and Obama on defnese much more. And I say that as a strong Obama supporter who has knocked on hundreds of doors and given Obama in the range of $1300 total over a year's time. So I'm surprised by the insta-poll results saying Obama "did better" or "won." But I'm certainly happy and I hope polling the next few days confirms the insta-polls.
Obama won it in a landslide. I am offended by the way McCain treated women's issues. He was insulting to women when he referred to 'women's health' as a trivial issue. Are you kidding me? McCain also made light of women's pay discrmination. He lost my friend just on that point.
The CNN focus group hated continued reference to Joe the plumber. They just did not like it. No wonder McCain is getting the brunt!
DCCyclone, I thought that McCain was certainly on the offensive, but he came across as cantankerous and mean, and like his face was being operated by a system of pulleys. Plus, I think he totally failed to connect with the American viewership.
McCain was incoherent. He was bringing up taxes where it just did not make sense. McCain looked angry and grumpy almost all the time.
I don't know if I can take 3 more weeks of Joe the Plumber. One night was enough.
As a conservative my Uncle is mad and angry at McCain. He thinks that McCain screwed up in all the debates. He still wants McCain to withdraw and wants Romney or Giuliani to be nominated. He thinks that McCain is a pro hoice guy from inside The base is still mad at McCain.
Sure, the candidates are going to take care of Joe the Plumber. But what about Luigi, and Toadstool?
I'm an Obama partisan. I thought the first two debates were a tie. I actually thought McCain came out a bit ahead in the first debate. Snap polls and post-debate polls disagreed with me - Obama won both. I thought Obama cleaned McCain's clock tonight. McCain looked angry and disorganized. He seemed to be all over the place. Obama looked like the guy I want to hear talking to me on the teevee when our country is in trouble. Per the snap polls, looks like others agree with me as well. Just because you are on defense (and I don't necessarily think Obama was on "defense" tonight) doesn't mean you can't win. If I'm a football team up by 2-3 scores in the fourth quarter, I'm rarely going to be on offense. But you can bet my defense is going to be fired up...and may even change the direction of the game via a big stop or a turnover. If Obama was on defense tonight, it's because he's significantly ahead. And I think he turned his defense into offense quite effectively.
Anbidy who wants to see the full discussion between Obama and Joe the Plumber should look at Jed Report. You will see a politician explain his appoach better than any I have ever seen. And, God please let these next 19 days go by quickly!!
I'm with McCain -- I can't believe the arrogance of people, talking about "health of the mother" like it should actually matter. (What's the html for air quotes, anyway?) C'mon! What's next? You start worrying about women's health, next you'll be telling me that we should care about their pay!
I'm in the tank for Obama, who I believe is singularly gifted both in intellect and temperament. So take the following for what it's worth: For me, the bottom line is that McCain just isn't smart enough to be president. He repeats discredited attacks, seemingly because he's already memorized and committed himself to them. He seems incapable of absorbing or articulating complex context -- for instance, many of his attacks on Obama simply are ridiculous once the full context of the bill in question is understood. He is incapable of weaving large arguments that make sense. Yeah, senator, pork and earmarks are bad, but fighting them alone will only make the tiniest dent in our fiscal problems. Yes, it's great that Sarah Palin empathizes with families with special-needs children, but that in no way qualifies her to be president.
I feel sorry for any reporter who has to pretend there's still a competitive race here. McCain's performance was just awful. And the scare quotes and sarcasm around the "health" of the mother really crossed a line.
I don't know about your plumber but mine gets $135 for the first 15 minutes in my house. Joe's paid better than any doctor I have.
For the fourth straight debate, undecideds give Dems roughly a 5-to-3 advantage. We are just seeing people's predispositions coming to light. You should add 1.5 to 2.0 points to Obama's polling average to account for this edge. Add in 1-2 points for the cell phone votes, and you're looking at serious blowout territory.
> I can't believe the arrogance of people, Mccain does not give a damn to womens issues. Did not he once refer his wife as a "c*nt". McCain also once told a joke about how women should enjoy the rape. Very very scary and creepy.
Obama wins CBS, CNN and MediaCurves poll. Obama cleans McCain's clock in all three polls. Enough said!
sorry-with what's going on in the country I can't feel sorry for a plumber making over $250,000 having to pay 39% instead of 36%.
McCain's behavior gave me a sense of why he did so abysmally at Annapolis.
Before tonight I was thinking Obama all the way. But watching him tonight, being so calm, cold and scripted, made me remember stories my mother told me about another European politician. Large rallies where citizens were hypnotized, and the media blindly praised and supported him. Now I'm concerned if he's really who his ads say he is. The dictators of the last century were also charasmatic speakers who came to power during periods of economic problems, and were fully supported by weak willed media types.
When did plumbers start making as much as doctors???
John McCain closed emotionally, Barack Obama closed with jobs, health care, middle class tax cut, and bread and butter. That's pretty much how the debate worked too. I thought McCain was coherent and strong; but it felt like Obama kept circling back to the middle class, cutting taxes, getting them jobs, everything was about them. Obama was cool and laughing at times which was charming IMO and McCain was strong and really angry at some portions. Overall, I think McCain would be in a better position if he'd started like this and built. But he didn't and the meltdown in the economy pretty much disqualifies him IMO. The Republicans don't have a leg to stand on after Bush leaves them with this meltdown.
Why is it, winnie, that so many people can't attack Obama without resorting to absurd paranoia or offensive historical analogies?
Tonight's debate was a win-win for Republicans and Democrats. The Republicans got their catharsis as McCain finally got a chance to unleash all the right-wing, Fox News, Corner lines of attack (Ayers, ACORN and Abortion - the 2008 version of God, Gays & Guns), and the Democrats got the next President of the United States. A deal I'll take any time.
Why couldn't McCain say Sarah Palin would be qualified to be President in his absence? It was a simple direct question, and all he needed to do was say yes. Very consistent with his other answers like the one about the woman being underpaid who didn't deserve justice because she found out too late.
Everyone else has already made up their minds. What Joe the Plumber thinks is of no interest at all.
Winnie, spare me that line of claptrap. If you were for Obama before this debate, you wouldn't be making asinine connections to Hitler afterward. It's intellectually empty, and patently ridiculous. How stupid do you think we are?
If Joe The Plumber is actually uncommitted, it's an unparalleled risk by the McCain campaign to rely so heavily on his name. If he cuts an ad with Obama tomorrow, we're talking about a significant shift in the campaign. If Joe The Plumber has been a McCain campaign plant all along, and if that becomes public, that's a significant risk for the campaign campaign. I mean, what, McCain's so out of touch that he has to invent people to support his campaign and plant them at Obama events? Etc. If Joe The Plumber is genuinely undecided and/or if he's a plant and this manages to remain secret, it'll have little effect other than being the butt of a joke on SNL this weekend because McCain was so scattered and ineffective in referencing the guy and didn't actually explain it at all. I mean, would anyone watching who wasn't familiar with the situation or didn't watch the post-debate analysis even recognize that McCain was talking about an actual person and not some hypothetical person? I don't think so. The first two possibilities are massive losses for McCain. The last is basically a wash. McCain loses big in a last-ditch attempt at gimmicky campaign narrative.
We have gotten to the point where the "liberal media" doesn't even bother changing the script from one debate to the next. 'obama was cool mccain was angry.' Rinse and repeat. Why its important reporters do their jobs: Under obama’s plan if joe delays getting health care joe pays a penalty. joe’s company that does not provide health care does not pay a penalty under obama’s health care plan. Under obama’s health care plan joe does pay a penalty for late sign up. Obama continues to spread that lie because the one profession that is so important it’s mentioned in the first amendment refuses to do its job. It’s kind of important to Americans that we know the facts about the candidates health care plan. Too bad the “liberal media” won’t tell us.
Like the other debates, McCain really is at a disadvantage in the visual realm. McCain sounds okay, but the visuals are terrible: he projects anger and Obama projects calm. McCain seems to despise Obama, and Obama seems like he's simply rationale towards McCain. One of OBama's best moments I thought was in education when he identified the two points he agreed with McCain and the areas he disagreed. It was cogent, gracious, and enlightening--nearly as good as Bill Clinton in explaining positions.
Who was the McCain advisor who said this race was pretty simple: if McCain gets Hillary supporters, he wins. If he doesn't, he loses. Well, he's been losing, and with that "health of the mother is an extremist pro-abortion stance" claptrap, he really just sunk himself. No doubt that played well to the base of the Republican Party, but what a completely idiotic thing for him to say in this debate. Worst thing either of them have said, politically speaking, in these 3 debates I believe.
I thought it was absurd that McCain attacked Obama for being too negative and seemed about ready to cry. McCain's running mate said Obama was palling around with terrorists and Obama took didn't ask for an apology, McCain's black advice friend compared McCain's to a racist campaign and McCain demanded an apology from Obama, got one, didn't think it was good enough brought it up again in a weepy cry baby way. Complained about t-shirts with mean slogans. It was absurd. I think his points on Obama weaseling out of public financing and town halls probably connected pretty though. McCain also said that ACORN is threatening to undermine the very fabric of democracy which is just an idiotic lie. The media ought to call him on that. It is actually insane. There are problems with ACORN and they can be discussed but it does not threaten our nation. Finally McCain's defense of Palin was incredibly stupid. I mean there isn't a good defense of her but I would expect a crisper most popular governor, energy expert, tax cutter answer. Instead he rambled about autism rates because her kid has downs syndrome, and gave props to the first dude. It should have been an easy question and he gave a worse answer than I would have thought possible. Other than those things I thought McCain did adequately. I think Obama did completely adequately. Obama was surprisingly candid. Maybe if I was a beltway insider I would dock him points for this. About Ayers, ACORN, and Abortion he was amazingly candid and straight forward. I think some of the undecideds who had these things in their heads as bogey men might have been swayed by his frank explanations. This was far and away the best debate of the three. I think McCain might get credit for winning because he did so poorly in the previous debate and because he was aggressive. I think the media should call him on the acorn insanity because they all know what he said was one of the dumbest things ever said in a debate. They probably won't because it is more fun to play pretend.
"Before tonight I was thinking Obama all the way. But watching him tonight, being so calm, cold and scripted, made me remember stories my mother told me about another European politician. Large rallies where citizens were hypnotized, and the media blindly praised and supported him. Now I'm concerned if he's really who his ads say he is. The dictators of the last century were also charasmatic speakers who came to power during periods of economic problems, and were fully supported by weak willed media types." Others have taken umbrage at your 'concern trolling'. I'm just shocked by your historical illiteracy. Have you actually seen footage of the Nuremberg rally or of Mussolini's speeches? Calm, Cold, and Collected? NOT.
Does John McCain understand that "special needs" are not one-size-fits-all children? Does he realize that Palin's son has Down Syndrome and not autism? I find it very hard to believe that Palin knows more about autism (or anything else for that matter) than most. Can she see an autistic child from her house, or where does this latest off-the-wall claim come from? This sounds like a pathetic attempt to pander to the many parents of children who have developmental disabilities.
I couldn't hear what McCain was saying while his body language and facial expressions were so creepy. Obama, on the other hand, was calm, cool, collected and consistent. Steady, serious, adult leadership is coming.
re: hadenough's "It’s kind of important to Americans that we know the facts about the candidates health care plan."
I thought Obama did very well - yes, he defended more and McCain attacked more, but he answered all of McCain's attacks clearly. He had the chance to clearly refute the attacks on Ayers and ACORN. He pointed out that earmarks account for less than 0.5% of the budget, so McCain crusade against them is largely meaningless. And he managed, I think, to appeal to centrist voters - by talking about charter schools, by mentioning where he'd disagreed with his party, by discussing abortion openly and honestly, and by bringing personal responsibility into the discussion as related to sexuality and to parents taking responsibility for their kids' education. None of that was really new - it was in The Audacity of Hope, for one thing - but it was probably new to a lot of the people who heard it. He made it well-nigh impossible for anyone to paint him as far-left, which is really all the Republicans are bothering to use against him at this point.
The key point of the debate for me was after the Ayers attack, when BHO was stalling for time and stumbling over his words. "Someone challenged me?! How dare someone challenge *ME*, the One?!?!?" If BHO becomes president, he's going to turn out to have more personality quirks than Richard Nixon. The bottom line is that if BHO wins, we're going to basically be a one party state for at least two years and perhaps longer. The Dems will control the White House and Congress, and the MSM will continue lying and misleading to support BHO. And, BHO will still have his far-left and Chicago friends, and whatever he says now they'll be helping to form his policies. With McCain, we'd have divided government, and he'd be caught between the Dem Congress and some GOP House members. And, we wouldn't have validated the smear campaign the MSM has been conducting to get BHO elected. If you don't want BHO to be president, see my name's link and encourage those listed to get behind that plan.
McCain pwnd Obama tonight and was obviously Presidential whereas Obama was the small child on the knee of the Wise Sage.
Joe The Plumber....is this his union? United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Industry of the United States And Canada Because if it is.... http://www.ua.org/ua_endorses.asp "On January 9, 2008, the United Association became the first International Union to endorse Senator Barack Obama as its candidate for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States. This endorsement was discussed with the General Executive Board and they concurred."
Did McCain say he'd reached across party lines and had the scars to prove it? It seemed like Obama was in the room with McCain, responding to the questions, aware of what was being said, capable of a conversation. McCain is a bag of inappropriate punchlines, totally unaware of what's going on around him, and unapologetic about it.
I thought Joe the Plumber was incredibly trite. A cliche of a cliche of a cliche. Almost self-parody. Obama mopped the floor with McCain without moving a muscle. Never mind the level of ideas, on which Obama dominated; the body language and ability to pronounce words and the piercingly obvious age difference placed the candidates on two entirely different planets, and one planet looked a lot better than the other.
Does this plumber clear $250,000 a year or is this gross receipts?
I thought McCain was pretty strong at the RNC and in the first debate. But tonight, as in the second debate,I actually felt bad for him. His campaign aside, McCain seems to be a man of conviction and maybe the best of what his party has to offer, but that's just the problem: it's the wrong place and the wrong time for a Reagan Republican and trickle-down economics.
Most important line: If you wanted to run against Bush you should have run four years ago. Excellent! Autism etc: Cindy McCain has a Masters Degree in special education and is a big influence on John McCain re autism an other issues. You don't have a MA degree so stfu. where was *this* McCain in the previous debates?? Oh well. Obama was advised to protect his lead, which by the way is about 2-3 points. That was bad advice but Obama, who's not very smart, took it. See you all Nov 4. I really, really look forward to it.
I hope Joe makes $300,000 a year. What I would like to know is how much he will have to pay for a business that is making $270,000 a year? How many years and how much interest he will have to pay? How will that affect his taxes?
The redstaters are out in full bloom, I see. Obama's national lead is 8 points, for what its worth: http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/08-us-pres-ge-mvo.php?
This is a stream-of-consciousness response. But here it goes: It is unfathomable during the three debates no moderator really asked about how these candidates would wield the power of the presidency. 1) What would their relationship be like with Congress? Every debate that occurred was a complete and utter rehash of questions that allowed the candidates to pivot from what was actually asked to their talking points over and over again. I know that is what politicians do, and this debate was better because of Schieffer's follow-up questions. But it was mind-numbing. The only real reason to watch it was to see a potential cluster by one of the candidates. But still, it is the lack of probing questions about how these candidates would use the powers of the presidency is one the most disturbing aspects of all of these presidential debates. Whomever wins is going to inherit the most powerful presidency in American history. I like to know some of their thoughts on that. And now I will probably never know. As for the debate winner, it is still status quo. McCain landed some good punches, but Obama can go rope-a-dope like no one's business. He's probably got this in the bag unless some paparrazo gets a shot of him snorting some blow or Americans lose their collective minds if another terrorist attacks happens in the next three weeks. As for McCain, he's desperate. How desperate? Saying that ACORN - which is required by law to turn in all voter registration forms so states can confirm their validity - is "perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy." Is that only because polls show he probably is going to lose? According to Newsweek: "To date, there have been no shortage of charges against ACORN: Ohio in 2004; Colorado in 2005; Kansas City, Missouri in 2006 and Washington state in 2007. This year alone, authorities are investigating the organization's branches in Lake County, Indiana; Cuyahoga County, Ohio; Michigan; Nevada and Missouri. But not a single case alleges that ACORN is attempting to influence the outcome of the election. So why all the fuss? Because people are confusing voter fraud (a dangerous offense) with voter registration fraud (a petty crime)." Are a thousand fake registration forms that earned some yahoos a few extra bucks and well-earned jail time really the beginning of the unraveling of American democracy? Hardly. For McCain to suggest that, shows what Nov. 5 is going to be like if voting numbers show it is close and he is behind.
This is interesting, and I wonder if Marc has more info on who this "Joe the Plumber" guy really is, given how much time was spent talking about him tonight. I just read that he (I think his full name is Joe Wurzelbacher) was or is a registered Republican, which I guess would make sense since he wants tax cuts even in his income bracket (over $250,000).
Obama won this and the other two debates for the simple reason that he treated them like what they really are: a job interview, and not a boxing match which is how McCain approached it.
I would really like to make "Joe The Plumber's Money" I want to know what it is like to have that problem. It would be nice.
The government gives them (the blacks) the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, GOD DAMN AMERICA, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people! GOD DAMN AMERICA for treating our citizens as less than human!!!!!!!!! GOD DAMN AMERICA for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme!!!!!!!!!!!
McCain just seemed... off. Worse than in the first and second debates. His body language said to me, "Why am I here?" Did he think the planetarium thing was a big hit the first time? When I heard that I couldn't believe my ears. Did he think that maybe when he talked about Obama's "fine," Obama would just say there would be no fine, and he'd look more clueless on an issue he loses consistently? He was unprepared, and didn't look like he cared to be prepared. Obama looked damned sick of debating, but in a way distinct from McCain. This Obama last showed up on the stage in his final debate with Hillary. Not his prettiest face, but compared to McCain's cartoonish anger and bewilderment in the split screen, he would have had to do more to blow it. The first debate was a draw, Obama came out with a clean victory in the second, and in the third Obama looked like the incumbent and McCain the challenger. One last thing: what now with Bill Ayers? It was obvious if McCain said nothing tonight, he'd have to drop it. But he brought it up in a weak way, and Obama killed him on it. Does he keep repeating the change, and Obama the explanation? Still doesn't sound like a winning strategy.
Having the two of them sit at a table together and showing them on split screen gave Americans a chance to compare temperament and responsiveness to difficult questions. While McCain veered into a hissy fit over so-called hurt feelings and character issues, Obama stayed on track, processing the questions and providing thoughtful answers. Which candidate acted most presidential? Du-uh!
What I find ironic is that the black (half-white) guy is calm and rational. That during the black guy's rallies he always pays respect to the service of the other guy and demands his crowds pay their respects also. Nary a boo can be heard without Obama calmly saying, "No, that's not appropriate." I'm talking personal stuff here- not policy. Contrast that with the white guy and his sidekick who have turned their rallies into gang-banging thug fests in which the "supporters" are bloodthirtsy, shout out orders to "kill" the other guy and behave like an angry mob. It's not just a couple of fringe folks out of thousands. I've seen the video footage shot outside of those rallies interviewing McCain supporters and they are vicous thugs, hell-bent on causing trouble. They shout violent terrible things that have caused the assassinations of many leaders around the world. OK, not all of them, but most of them are now in this category. In fact, that is what is attracting them. Think about it. Think about it again. How bizarre is that? The black guy is upbeat, positive, hopeful and his supporters follow his lead. The white guy and lady want riots and anarchy. Don't you even dare say they are not responsible for their crowds. They are 110% responsible because they are causing their supporters to act the way they do.
Let's roll back advances in motherhood mortality at childbirth to pre-1900 levels! Women's pay is a trial lawyer conspiracy! (even after Obama pointedly pointed out that he threw trial lawyers under the bus upon getting to the senate) Both of these memes really undercut the McCain pander "I actually got this idea from Senator Clinton..."
I thought McCain lost this debate the the first time he twitches his eyebrows. Seriously though, I think McCain was doing well until he started to attack Obama personally. That sure didn't seem to play well with independent voters!
You know who won when Douthat says "Make up your own damn mind who won. I'm going to bed."
I've seen this link on another blog. It turns out that out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. If this is a coincidence it's certainly an amazing one, but I wonder if Joe could possibly have been a plant at Obama's rally?? (And do any of you think "nah, McCain wouldn't do that" ?)
I think the fact that the pundits thought McCain won (while public polling showed decisively otherwise) says more about the state of political journalism then it does about journalism. Political debates aren't debate competitions. It isn't about landing blows and replying to everyone one of the opposition's blows. It isn't a point system. Obama won the debate without attacking which isn't possible in ordinary debates but is the best of all scenarios in a political debate.
McCain (and Palin) both debate like they are auditioning to be callers to a conservative talk radio broadcast rather than President of the United States. All I heard from McCain was run-of-the-mill conservative boilerplate gibberish, the same crap that got us where we are today with the worst financial crisis since the Depression and a disastrous unnecessary war in Iraq. Shieffer gave McCain the chance to talk about William Ayers but McCain still hasn't made a convincing argument about why Ayers matters. He's lucky Obama is leading by so much in the polls that he doesn't have to bring up all of McCain's much more significant associations (Keating, Saddam's lobbyist, etc.). It seemed like McCain is more interested in refighting the culture wars of the '60s or the 1990 Persian Gulf War vote than coming up with a coherent response to today's challenges. The Republicans might want to rethink their tendency to nominate elderly longtime Senators every few elections. It isn't serving them well.
As with the previous debates, if you went in favoring one candidate's issues and style you saw nothing to change your mind. So as an Obama supporter, Obama sounded cool and knowledgeable, and McCain sounded angry and still very confused about economics. No surprise. Had the little green aliens controlling the candidate peeked above his collar and showed their hand, I'm convinced either man would still get a solid 30% of the vote. Consider what they had to do going into the debate. On Joe the Plumber: I thought McCain overplayed that card. And I was first directed to the Joe video by a pro-Obama blogger (might have been Jed) as an example of Obama's ability to engage someone and explain his positions--he looks, in this video, like he really understands the economic issues and how they will affect people. (In contrast McCain is coming out with comical proposals, like encouraging everyone who has capital gains at the moment to Sell! Sell now! And providing incentives to liquify a 401-K. We don't need more incentives to sell right now. Or imposing a floor on home values--that's just nuts.) All of which is to say: There is no need to pull out the black helicopters and go after Joe the Plumber, as some in this thread want to do. He is an undecided voter; let us convince him how much better it is to put in a guy who understands economics and can talk about them without tossing in bizarre proposals.
I listen on NPR so I don't get the visuals. Having watched the little highlight reel Andrew provided, I can confirm two things I've read: 1) McCain didn't know the camera was on him when he wasn't speaking, or if he remembered, didn't do a good job of playing to it; Obama did.
Meet Joe the Plumber, Joe Six Pack's CEO. The real thing that the public never asks with regard to the tax cuts that are being offered by both candidates is the revenue stream that is the source of these tax cuts. By and large, there is really only one source of surplus money to give tax cuts with, and that comes from payroll taxes, largely paid for by the working poor and middle classes. With the cap on income on which payroll taxes can be applied, this is obvious, but since the 1980's and the elimination of the Keynsian concept of raising and lowering taxes when needed to pay for particular program of this nature, the Social Security surplus was created. Republicans continually call the efforts to reject the tax cuts they offer "Class Warfare" but to be honest, this is covering up their own form of class warfare, in which tax revenues paid by those who make 100,000 dollars a year or less are transfered to those who make more than 100,000 dollars a year in income. The wealthy are given tax cuts out of this source of revenues far in excess of the amount they have contributed to this particular revenue base. No one pays much more than about 13,000 dollars a year in payroll taxes, but over the last 30 years, it has been those at the upper income levels who have been withdrawing from it in six figure sums. This is the heart of the difference between the Democrat and Republican candidates. The Democrats want to return this surplus, proportionally, to those who paid it, because Social Security still is in fact, part of the salary of those who earn less than 100,000 dollars a year. These workers receive several forms of remuneration for their labor. The first is a salary, the second is in things like contributions to Social Security. This rather benefits the employer as well, because it defers the amount of money that workers would have to be paid if they were given a salary large enough to put something aside for their own retirement. When Social Security was created, it was largely because businesses simply did not pay large enough salaries for workers to put much aside for their own retirements. Every argument for "privatising" social security over the last 30 years has come from the fact that most of the time, the surplus is transfered to the goverment for some current use, either to avoid raising taxes to pay for existing programs, or to give some sort of tax cut. A simple solution is to set some sort of rules for the use of the various revenue streams collected by the government. I remember reading recently, that since 1980, payroll taxes have grown to account for 40 percent of the governments annual revenues. 10 percent comes from corporate taxes, another 4 percent from various tariffs and the rest comes from income taxes and other sources like selling treasury bonds.
Anything else is a sort of covert "class warfare", based on a conservative assumption. That tax cuts given to the wealthiest Americans will be used to create jobs or to start new business enterprises, or to give employees new benefits, or raises, or whatever. This assertion is rather pure theory, and objectively, there is no evidence that it actually occurs. CEO's use tax cut pretty much in the same way as the average worker does. They consider it a windfall, and they usually use it to give CEO's raises, give shareholders dividends (considering that a large percentage of shareholders are also the executives, this is another gimme for the wealthiest Americans) and lastly, the tax cuts are used for the usual cited purposes, job creation, worker benefits. I remember reading a Comptroller Generals report that the distribution of the Reagan tax cuts was that 96 percent went to executives and shareholders, and 4 percent was used for the theoretical purposes that are continually given by Republicans to justify these tax cuts to the wealthiest two percent of Americans. The same proportions are likely applicable to the most recent round of tax cuts. It is no mistake that the sum of money that the Bush Adminstration gave out in tax cuts, which gave something around 45 percent of the total money involved to the top two percent of Americans by income, was 2.1 trillion dollars. Which was exactly the sum of the projected surpluses that the Clinton Administration antipated by the system they established in the 90's. Which was basically to do what the Social Security Surplus created in the 1980's was established to do. To create a surplus to pay for future Social Security obilgations. Heres the rub. Its not enough to offer tax cuts, which voters seems to jump at, but to ask, where the money for them comes from, and who is paying for it. Over the last 30 years, its been the working middle classes, and they should benefit from these tax cut in proprortion to what they paid for them
Last night, the board of the nonpartisan site I edit checked in one the debate, and had some strong reactions, especially">http://tinyurl.com/3udg2l>especially on health care. They also had little patience for campaign gambits: "Joe The Plumber is back again. Who knew he was this sick?"
I think the talking heads in the post-debate wrap need a refresher course on what it's like to try to live on a median income in this country. Joe the Plumber is not everyman. If my plumber is making $250,000 profit a year, I'm thinking "I'm getting ripped off," not "This guy needs a tax break."
I listened to part of the debate on the radio (while driving to a PTA meeting- dang those community organizers!) and was struck by how "whistly" and just plain old McCain sounded. It was like a caricature of a grumpy old man's voice on a TV ad or something. As an Obama partisan, I think McCain did the best job he's done at of any of the debates thus far. But, he was still awful overall. The grimaces and twitches, the air quotes for women's health (WTF??), the stupid repetition of discredited talking points ($42K tax raise lie, "overhead projector," etc.), the whimpering about mean t-shirts, the Ayers/ACORN obsession that no one but wingnuts cares about.... it was pathetic. Obama was calm, cool, so likeable and admirable. He will make a great president.
Re: Joe the Plumbers income tax increase: Look at health care in the whole package. Taxing healthcare benefits means the employee pays twice - McCain's brilliant idea. Joe the Plumber would need to increase wages to offset that tax to his employee if he is to get very good employees. McCain's plan is a mess - we have lived in countries that have a base level of health care and what a difference it makes to society. Yes, our taxes were a bit higher as business owners, but some employees got very ill and were able to be productive as they healed, and their families didn't have to worry about bankruptcy. I would gladly pay the extra $1,000 tax as Joe the Plumber instead of my and my employees' health care being taxed. AND there's the added cost of administering that tax in my business. LOOK AT THE WHOLE PICTURE!
I listened to this debate on the radio (maybe that affects my impression), and I was struck by how many of McCain's attacks would be unintelligible to someone who didn't already know the substance of each attack going in (i.e. most Americans). The same was largely true for his selling of his policy proposals. I think this has been the case in each of the debates, and I think this is why Obama has been consistently scored the winner in the surveys of uncommitted voters while McCain has often been given the win by the TV pundits (usually "on points").
I watched last night as McCain would catch Obama with a good left hook and then not finish the job with a right to the head. I feel he could have been even more on the attack. Things he touched on: 1) We've already had 2 years of "change" it's called Pelosi and Reed. 2) OBAMA CONTRIBUTED TO ACCORN, COVERED IT UP, AND GOT CAUGHT!!!!! 3) If you wanted to run against Bush you should have run 4 years ago! My feeling, he should have hit that even harder. Did I hear aplause or clapping from the silent audience? Did anyone else get tired of listening to Obama speak like a broken record, in studdering phrases as if he had an ear piece that was not feeding him talking points quick enough. He was flustered and off his game. A good fight for McCain, just not a TKO.
I agree Greg. McCain's anger gets in the way of his ability to clearly explain his policies, or even his attacks. If you took a handful of average, non partisan voters immediately after the debate and asked them to describe Obama's health care plan (for example), I bet they would be able to do it much more easily than if asked to describe McCain's policy.
Only Marc Ambinder could write 4 straight posts on Joe the Plumber and then write: Really? We've all been reduced to mining the blood relations and voting history of Joe the Plumber? Is the election really that boring again? Really? Tool.
WE CAN"T LET A COMMUNIST WIN!!!(my opinion)
Can we stop this now: News organizations including ABC, The Associated Press, The Washington Monthly and MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann reported the claim, with most attributing the allegations to the Times-Tribune story. Agent Bill Slavoski said he was in the audience, along with an undisclosed number of additional secret service agents and other law enforcement officers and not one heard the comment. “I was baffled,” he said after reading the report in Wednesday’s Times-Tribune. He said the agency conducted an investigation Wednesday, after seeing the story, and could not find one person to corroborate the allegation other than Singleton. Slavoski said more than 20 non-security agents were interviewed Wednesday, from news media to ordinary citizens in attendance at the rally for the Republican vice presidential candidate held at the Riverfront Sports Complex. He said Singleton was the only one to say he heard someone yell “kill him.” Can we stop now? See first it was just millbank. No, no video just what millbank though he heard. Then, yes then 'it happened again.' Yes indeed it did. No, no video just what a 'reporter' thought he heard. Yet another member of the "liberal media" thought he heard soemthing and the "well educated" "creative" went nutz again. Please stop. Oh and I await ambinder noting this in a post.
Totally OT - the Heatmiser video clip was hilarious. About the debate - Obama won.
Hmmm the last time I hired a plumber I got charged $1,200 for what amounted to 3 hours of work. Seriously...400 bucks an hour! This DID NOT include any charges for parts! Yeah, Joe the Plumber isn't exactly "Middle America" if he's whining about making more than $250,000 a year...I'll tell you what, "Joe the Plumber", let's you and me trade places...I'll make $250,000 a year and I'll gladly pay your taxes at 39%...huh? Whaddayasay Joe? Yeah..I thought so...
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I'm an Obama partisan but I gotta say, for the first time ever, I was mortally, viscerally terrified at the thought of a McCain presidency. His anger was absolutely freakish. Just plain weird. The entire debate, his voice wavered, he stuttered, he twitched. Frightening.
Posted by CK | October 15, 2008 11:09 PM